DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by blain218 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:08 am

To all the people claiming Goku is dumber in Super, isn't this the same guy who thought marriage was a type of food, who didn't know how to drive, who would be easily conned by strangers (yes Toriyama wrote much of the filler), who tired to pimp-out his son's girlfriend without knowing why that's wrong, etc? How is Goku any different in Super when he has always been written as an eternal manchild even in the 90s Funi dub?

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Puaru » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:59 am

Gohan's characterization sucks. He's weak and pointless and boring, and his "return" in the ToP arc amounted to absolutley nothing of worth. He did nothing impressive and disapointed everyone. I don't care if the writers tried to make it seem like his "feats" somehow made him earn Beerus respect or whatever, that just means that Beerus is an idiot with low standards. Gohan sucks.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by blain218 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:05 am

Puaru wrote:Gohan's characterization sucks. He's weak and pointless and boring, and his "return" in the ToP arc amounted to absolutley nothing of worth. He did nothing impressive and disapointed everyone. I don't care if the writers tried to make it seem like his "feats" somehow made him earn Beerus respect or whatever, that just means that Beerus is an idiot with low standards. Gohan sucks.
He scored more eliminations than half the team and is easily the 2nd most development character in the whole franchise next to Vegeta.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:12 am

Do people believe that Vegeta has actually regressed as a character in Super, is he poorly characterized, or is he just fine?
Overall he's progressed as he now cares about his family and helped Cabba reach Ssj. On the other hand there are some odd episodes where he acts like his Cell arc self or completely out of character like in ep16 when he was trying to get Whis to train him.
Is Goku characterized differently in Super than in previous installments?
I think so, it seems like his IQ dropped since the Buu as he acts a lot more childish and idiotic.
Has Gohan been repeating the same character arcs in Super?
Yes but he also did it in Z. In Z we were told about his "unlocked true power" 3 times, on Namek, against Cell and through Old Kai. In Super, he decided to drop out of his training only to need power again despite the same thing happening in Z when he didn't train after the fight with Cell.
Do you believe that any of the characters from other universes have compelling characterization?
Hit, Zamasu, Black, Jiren & Toppo are good characters but everyone else is ust meh.
Do you think Super is doing a bad job with its characterization?
Do you feel that character arcs in the show have been poorly handled or executed?
Yes, generally speaking. It seems like the writers never read the original manga or have a very wrong understanding about the characters. Then of course you've got characters like Piccolo and Gohan on top of being badly written not doing anything important for the majority of the show.
blain218 wrote:How is Goku any different in Super when he has always been written as an eternal manchild ?
Goku matured over the course of the original manga. He always kept his fun personality and at times acted like an idiot but that's not the same as his character being regressed like it was in most of Super. There are times in Super like in ep53 where he acted more childish then his child self back in the first arcs.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by blain218 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:26 am

sintzu wrote:
blain218 wrote:How is Goku any different in Super when he has always been written as an eternal manchild ?
sintzu wrote:Goku matured over the course of the original manga. He always kept his fun personality and at times acted like an idiot but that's not the same as his character being regressed like it was in most of Super. There are times in Super like in ep53 where he acted more childish then his child self back in the first arcs.
blain218 wrote:To all the people claiming Goku is dumber in Super, isn't this the same guy who thought marriage was a type of food, who didn't know how to drive, who would be easily conned by strangers (yes Toriyama wrote much of the filler), who couldn't tell the difference between boys and girls, who tired to pimp-out his son's girlfriend without knowing why that's wrong, who fails to take any villain completely serious unless they do something really evil in font of him?
And no, Goku did not mature at all throughout the original manga. He was always acting goofy outside of battles and demonstrating his lack of common sense in everyday life situations constantly. To argue that Goku was ever smarter or more mature at any point in the franchise is pure nostalgia.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Kagari » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:45 am

Puaru wrote:Gohan's characterization sucks. He's weak and pointless and boring, and his "return" in the ToP arc amounted to absolutley nothing of worth. He did nothing impressive and disapointed everyone. I don't care if the writers tried to make it seem like his "feats" somehow made him earn Beerus respect or whatever, that just means that Beerus is an idiot with low standards. Gohan sucks.
None of what you said is even remotely true. He's not weak by any measure and the team wouldn't have won without him. Hardly a "disappointing everyone" situation.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:47 am

blain218 wrote:To argue that Goku was ever smarter or more mature at any point in the franchise is pure nostalgia.
To argue otherwise would be a pure lie to justify Super's shortcomings which is pretty popular to do at this point.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:55 am

Kagari wrote:
Puaru wrote:Gohan's characterization sucks. He's weak and pointless and boring, and his "return" in the ToP arc amounted to absolutley nothing of worth. He did nothing impressive and disapointed everyone. I don't care if the writers tried to make it seem like his "feats" somehow made him earn Beerus respect or whatever, that just means that Beerus is an idiot with low standards. Gohan sucks.
None of what you said is even remotely true. He's not weak by any measure and the team wouldn't have won without him. Hardly a "disappointing everyone" situation.
He is weak when compared to the real threats that were Toppo and Jiren.

He probably is annoyed that Gohan didn't fight Jiren. I don't know how people can expect much more after he helped against, Saonel, Pirina, Anilaza and Dyspo.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:06 am

namekiansaiyan wrote:I don't know how people can expect much more after he helped against, Saonel, Pirina, Anilaza and Dyspo.
At the end of the Buu arc he was the strongest Z fighter and up to this point the only character other than Goku to kill a main villain in Cell so regardless of what he did, fans are going to expect more and rightfully so based on his past in the original manga.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:25 am

sintzu wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:I don't know how people can expect much more after he helped against, Saonel, Pirina, Anilaza and Dyspo.
At the end of the Buu arc he was the strongest Z fighter and up to this point the only character other than Goku to kill a main villain in Cell so regardless of what he did, fans are going to expect more and rightfully so based on his past in the original manga.
He doesn't like to train or fight that much so that side will always drag him down and not everyone can be there fighting at the end.

In the end all that matters is that he is not Goku which means he won't get the major glory again. Everything always work around Goku and that is exactly why he was the one to get the plot armour known as Ultra Instinct to damage Jiren who should have won the tournament.

Also if Gohan stayed any longer he would have just got destroyed by Toppo and Jiren. Frieza could only help when Jiren was tired and 17 just ran and essentially nearly killed himself and just ended up the last one without doing much damage at all due to the others.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by The Patrolman » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:26 am

And no, Goku did not mature at all throughout the original manga. He was always acting goofy outside of battles and demonstrating his lack of common sense in everyday life situations constantly. To argue that Goku was ever smarter or more mature at any point in the franchise is pure nostalgia.
[spoiler]Image
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Sure Goku never matured during original manga. GTFO with that bullshit.
Last edited by The Patrolman on Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Exline » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:32 am

The Patrolman wrote:
And no, Goku did not mature at all throughout the original manga. He was always acting goofy outside of battles and demonstrating his lack of common sense in everyday life situations constantly. To argue that Goku was ever smarter or more mature at any point in the franchise is pure nostalgia.
[spoiler]Image
Image
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Sure Goku never matured during original manga. GTFO with that bullshit.
Why couldn't you just compact the images into spoilers..

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Dbzk1999 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:36 am

That’s what I was about to say, cmon man, at least put that stuff into a spoiler block
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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by The Patrolman » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:37 am

Exline wrote:
The Patrolman wrote:
And no, Goku did not mature at all throughout the original manga. He was always acting goofy outside of battles and demonstrating his lack of common sense in everyday life situations constantly. To argue that Goku was ever smarter or more mature at any point in the franchise is pure nostalgia.
[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
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Image
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Image
Image
Image
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Image[/spoiler]

Sure Goku never matured during original manga. GTFO with that bullshit.
Why couldn't you just compact the images into spoilers..
Didn't know how to do it. I'm new to doing this.
The Last Jedi is a terrible movie

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Puaru » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:41 am

Kagari wrote: None of what you said is even remotely true. He's not weak by any measure and the team wouldn't have won without him. Hardly a "disappointing everyone" situation.
Everything he struggled to do are things that other members of his team could have done easily. The same is of course true for characters like Krillin and Piccolo as well but the difference is that they could never have ranked among the strongest in the first place. Gohan COULD have, but he doesnt. He could and should be as strong as at least 17 and Freeza, but he is not. And the reason he is not is because he sucks.

Beerus shouldn't have said "good job Gohan". He should have said, "from now on you will be responsible for vacuuming my house because you are so good at SUCKING". And then everyone would cheer because Beerus finally said what had been on everyones mind for years. Goku would even have shed a tear from the relief of the truth finally being spoken. He would be thinking "thank you Beerus, you will forever be in my heart for saying the thing I as a father should have said but never could bring myself to do". Piccolo would be the only one to be distressed over hearing the harsh facts spoken so bluntly, and at first he would sit there in silence, but then he would break down sobbing because it would be like a stone being lifted from his soul. No more bullshit, just the truth.
Last edited by Puaru on Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am

Exline wrote:
The Patrolman wrote:
And no, Goku did not mature at all throughout the original manga. He was always acting goofy outside of battles and demonstrating his lack of common sense in everyday life situations constantly. To argue that Goku was ever smarter or more mature at any point in the franchise is pure nostalgia.
[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
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Image[/spoiler]

Sure Goku never matured during original manga. GTFO with that bullshit.
Why couldn't you just compact the images into spoilers..
I don't think anyone is saying that Goku hasn't matured as a character, I think people are saying that Goku has always had a silly side to his character, even after all his serious mature stuff.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Puaru wrote:
Kagari wrote: None of what you said is even remotely true. He's not weak by any measure and the team wouldn't have won without him. Hardly a "disappointing everyone" situation.
Everything he struggled to do are things that other members of his team could have done easily. The same is of course true for characters like Krillin and Piccolo as well but the difference is that they could never have ranked among the strongest in the first place. Gohan COULD have, but he doesnt. He could and should be as strong as at least 17 and Freeza, but he is not. And the reason he is not is because he sucks.

Beerus shouldn't have said "good job Gohan". He should have said, "from now on you will be responsible for vacuuming my house because you are so good at SUCKING". And then everyone would cheer because Beerus finally said what had been on everyones mind for years. Goku would even have shed a tear from the relief of the truth finally being spoken. He would be thinking "thank you Beerus, you will forever be in my heart for saying the thing I as a father should have said but never could bring myself to do". Piccolo would be the only one to be distressed over hearing the harsg facts spoken so bluntly, and at first he would sit there in silence, but then he would break down soobbing because it would be like a stone being lifted from his sould. No more bullshit, just the truth.
The thing is though, he is as strong as characters like 17, so I don't really see your complaint there.

The reason why his participation in this tournament felt so lacklustre for the most part, is because the majority of the episodes which were "Gohan centric", were mostly extremely poorly executed. Either they were lacking visually, had poor direction, or just didn't do much with his character.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by The Patrolman » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am

Dbzk1999 wrote:That’s what I was about to say, cmon man, at least put that stuff into a spoiler block
I'm new to doing this my bad. I put the spoiler block now.
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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Exline » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:57 am

JazzMazz wrote: I don't think anyone is saying that Goku hasn't matured as a character, I think people are saying that Goku has always had a silly side to his character, even after all his serious mature stuff.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Puaru wrote:
Kagari wrote: None of what you said is even remotely true. He's not weak by any measure and the team wouldn't have won without him. Hardly a "disappointing everyone" situation.
Everything he struggled to do are things that other members of his team could have done easily. The same is of course true for characters like Krillin and Piccolo as well but the difference is that they could never have ranked among the strongest in the first place. Gohan COULD have, but he doesnt. He could and should be as strong as at least 17 and Freeza, but he is not. And the reason he is not is because he sucks.

Beerus shouldn't have said "good job Gohan". He should have said, "from now on you will be responsible for vacuuming my house because you are so good at SUCKING". And then everyone would cheer because Beerus finally said what had been on everyones mind for years. Goku would even have shed a tear from the relief of the truth finally being spoken. He would be thinking "thank you Beerus, you will forever be in my heart for saying the thing I as a father should have said but never could bring myself to do". Piccolo would be the only one to be distressed over hearing the harsg facts spoken so bluntly, and at first he would sit there in silence, but then he would break down soobbing because it would be like a stone being lifted from his sould. No more bullshit, just the truth.
The thing is though, he is as strong as characters like 17, so I don't really see your complaint there.

The reason why his participation in this tournament felt so lacklustre for the most part, is because the majority of the episodes which were "Gohan centric", were mostly extremely poorly executed. Either they were lacking visually, had poor direction, or just didn't do much with his character.
I think it mostly has to do with his elimination episode which was very poorly written. Half the episode did not even involve Gohan at all and it was running on reused animation most of the time.

If he (or any of the other characters besides Roshi, 18, and Vegeta) had a proper sendoff in his elimination episode, then I don't think people would be complaining so much. The homage to the Raditz Saga with Frieza getting rid of both him and Dyspo was very humdrum since we've seen this done already..

It probably also has to do with Dyspo not being developed as much as Jiren and Toppo throughout the ToP. Dyspo was just shown to be your generic cocky antagonist and it makes it his presence in the ToP less exciting overall.
The Patrolman wrote:
Dbzk1999 wrote:That’s what I was about to say, cmon man, at least put that stuff into a spoiler block
I'm new to doing this my bad. I put the spoiler block now.
No worries man. At least you fixed it.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Kagari » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:55 am

Puaru wrote:
Kagari wrote: None of what you said is even remotely true. He's not weak by any measure and the team wouldn't have won without him. Hardly a "disappointing everyone" situation.
Everything he struggled to do are things that other members of his team could have done easily. The same is of course true for characters like Krillin and Piccolo as well but the difference is that they could never have ranked among the strongest in the first place. Gohan COULD have, but he doesnt. He could and should be as strong as at least 17 and Freeza, but he is not. And the reason he is not is because he sucks.

Beerus shouldn't have said "good job Gohan". He should have said, "from now on you will be responsible for vacuuming my house because you are so good at SUCKING". And then everyone would cheer because Beerus finally said what had been on everyones mind for years. Goku would even have shed a tear from the relief of the truth finally being spoken. He would be thinking "thank you Beerus, you will forever be in my heart for saying the thing I as a father should have said but never could bring myself to do". Piccolo would be the only one to be distressed over hearing the harsh facts spoken so bluntly, and at first he would sit there in silence, but then he would break down sobbing because it would be like a stone being lifted from his soul. No more bullshit, just the truth.
You're not providing any reasons beyond "he sucks" and looking at your posting history it's obvious you just don't like the character.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:13 am

JazzMazz wrote:Do people believe that Vegeta has actually regressed as a character in Super, is he poorly characterized, or is he just fine?
Vegeta for 95% was fantastically written.The other 5% belongs to the very questionable moments like bragging to Toppo about how among the Saiyans he stands at the top... despite Goku attaining Ultra Instinct a few episodes ago and not giving Goku energy for his Genki Dama in Episode 109. At least he later amitted that he's self aware of his arrogance, instead of blindly ignoring like he would in the past. Other than those moments, Vegeta has been perfectly fine in Super
JazzMazz wrote:Is Goku characterized differently in Super than in previous installments?
No. Not really. Goku is pretty much the same in Super as he for the majority of Z. His love for fighting makes him do questionable acts by our own moral standards but he still retains his charm as a loveable, intriguing, naive manchild with average social and basic intelligence and the occasional flippant act or expression.
JazzMazz wrote:Has Gohan been repeating the same character arcs in Super?
Yes. In fact, Super's handling of Gohan has been on the major issues with the show. The show has provided the context of Gohan wanting to become stronger following the events of Resurrection F, while in the end they (kinda) followed through, but it was also a slow-burn build up that was also full of red herrings. They just had no idea how to handle him after Resurrection F. It felt like when they wanted to do something big with him they would get cold feet every time. The fact we had this, but the show never followed up on it, sums it all up.
JazzMazz wrote:Do you believe that any of the characters from other universes have compelling characterization?
Hit, Champa, Cabba, Zamasu, Goku Black, Kale, Caulifla, Toppo, Zeno and Jiren (Yeah, I said it) are all wonderfully well rounded and intriguing characters.
JazzMazz wrote:Do you think Super is doing a bad job with its characterization?

In some episodes, yes. Episode 21 (Krillin), 42 (Goku) 53 (Goku), 58 (Goku), 89 (Roshi) and 114 (Vegeta), are the episodes that stick out to in my mind when it comes to characters who have their traits or personality poorly handled due to either exaggerating some of the characterizations or just ignoring certain elements of their previous character development.
JazzMazz wrote:Do you feel that character arcs in the show have been poorly handled or executed?
I really enjoyed Beerus, Zamasu, Kale, Hit, and Toppo character arcs very much. Super also breathed wonderful fresh air into Whis, #17 and Freeza's characterization. And, speaking in an isolated sense, I really like the two part episodes where Krillin regained his martial art instinct and confidence. If there is one character arc I feel could have been handled better it was with Roshi.

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