DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by blain218 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:34 pm

sintzu wrote:
blain218 wrote:To argue that Goku was ever smarter or more mature at any point in the franchise is pure nostalgia.
To argue otherwise would be a pure lie to justify Super's shortcomings which is pretty popular to do at this point.
Its an objective fact that Goku overall was never any smarter or mature than he is now. You can cherry-pick moments of Goku acting serious and clever from Z all you want (I can do the same with Super lol) that won't debunk the overall fact that he is generally the same. And making a character smart or dumb in and of itself isn't a writing flaw.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:49 pm

blain218 wrote:Its an objective fact that Goku overall was never any smarter or mature than he is now.

making a character smart or dumb in and of itself isn't a writing flaw.
You either haven't seen the original story in awhile (DB&Z) or you're just being a fanboy who doesn't want to admit that the writing's quality has gone down hill since then.

It's a major flaw in any kind of work if the character is acting out of character and going against previous developments. I guess that like other issues don't apply to Super.
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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Puaru » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:43 pm

Kagari wrote: You're not providing any reasons beyond "he sucks" and looking at your posting history it's obvious you just don't like the character.
Gohan is my favorite character. Which is why it bothers me that he sucks now.

My guinea pig is stronger than Gohan and he has been dead for 14 years.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:42 pm

Kataphrut wrote: Because you know how it goes, Super gives Vegeta a moment of being a good husband, fans say "oh wow, Vegeta's got the best development, he's a way better father than Goku," but then go right back to cheering for "IMMA BEAT KAKAROT" in the ToP without considering that those two personalities are kind of...contradictory. I don't know. Episode 107 and 112 gave me hope, but they could just be the exception that proves the rule.
How exactly are those personalities contradictory in any way? Being arrogant has always been who Vegeta is and it defines him. He is prideful and cocky and that part of his character has never nor should it ever go away.(Save for the Buu saga fucking that up) There's no reason why he wouldn't want to surpass Goku while simultaneously be a loving husband and father and being a compassionate mentor to future Trunks and Cabba.
sintzu wrote:
blain218 wrote:Its an objective fact that Goku overall was never any smarter or mature than he is now.

making a character smart or dumb in and of itself isn't a writing flaw.
You either haven't seen the original story in awhile (DB&Z) or you're just being a fanboy who doesn't want to admit that the writing's quality has gone down hill since then.

It's a major flaw in any kind of work if the character is acting out of character and going against previous developments. I guess that like other issues don't apply to Super.
How has Goku gone against previous developments? He's always been a fun loving guy with very limited intelligence. That is exactly what he is in Super. Does he get serious less often in Super? Yeah of course Super has a little bit more of a comical demeanor in a lot of the slice of life stuff especially. But serious Goku in Super is the same as he has always been

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by sintzu » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:53 am

I think there's more they could've done with Black and Zamasu in terms of their motives. We know they didn't like mortals but why not go all out and show mortals doing really bad things to justify their hate ? show us that Zamasu truly beleived in what he was doing and thought it would be best for the universe Instead of him justing being full of himself like what we got.

Same thing with the tournament, tell us what some of the fighters' wishes are so it'd be harder for us to side with our universe instead of giving everyone the same stock Cell arc Vegeta personality that made it impossibe to sympathize with anyone.
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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:06 am

sintzu wrote:I think there's more they could've done with Black and Zamasu in terms of their motives. We know they didn't like mortals but why not go all out and show mortals doing really bad things to justify their hate ? show us that Zamasu truly beleived in what he was doing and thought it would be best for the universe Instead of him justing being full of himself like what we got.

Same thing with the tournament, tell us what some of the fighters' wishes are so it'd be harder for us to side with our universe instead of giving everyone the same stock Cell arc Vegeta personality that made it impossibe to sympathize with anyone.
But, wasn't that exactly what they showed us on the barbarian planet?

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by sintzu » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:26 am

JazzMazz wrote:But, wasn't that exactly what they showed us on the barbarian planet?
That hardly justifies deciding to wipe out every mortal in every universe and timeline. Pain from Naruto and Sensui from YuYu Hakusho are what I have in mind, especially pain.
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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:14 am

sintzu wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:But, wasn't that exactly what they showed us on the barbarian planet?
That hardly justifies deciding to wipe out every mortal in every universe and timeline. Pain from Naruto and Sensui from YuYu Hakusho are what I have in mind, especially pain.
I don't think Zamasu needed that at all.
Zamasu isn't human, so stuff that would emotionally effect a normal person, like say a mortal committing a heinous crime on another mortal, wouldn't effect him at all on an emotional level, because he would view it as the bestial actions of lesser, primitive creatures.

What would effect him, and did effect him on an emotional and psychological level, would be heresy committed against the Gods. Zamasu noticed mortals that committed heresy on 3 different occasions. The first was when he was humbled and defeated by Goku, as a mortal not only being stronger than a god, but raising his fists to them was a grievous sin that showed how dangerous mortals really were. This was easily the one that effected Zamasu most, and his defeat by Goku's hands is what plunged him into darkness. His run in with the primitive native that raised his hand to attack Zamasu and Gowasu, further demonstrating to him the immediate lack of respect, and brutality of mortals. Finally, seeing Goku, a lowly mortal that was not only stronger than gods, but also disrespectful to them, going as far as to raise his fists against him, was himself capable of utilizing godly ki.

Though, I do feel that certain elements could have been better potrayed along this line, I believe that each of these events give Zamasu more than enough motivation to consider mortals a threat that must be purged from existence, and also lends credit to why he chose Goku as his host to carry out this act.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Jackalope89 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:57 pm

JazzMazz wrote:Do people believe that Vegeta has actually regressed as a character in Super, is he poorly characterized, or is he just fine?
Regressed? A few moments here and there, probably by a new director or something. But overall, in addition to him being a family man, we see "teacher" added to his repertoire.
Is Goku characterized differently in Super than in previous installments?
A fight loving maniac? Not for the most part. But even I have to admit the Future Trunks part dialed his sometimes naive nature up to 11. Seriously, forgetting the Senzu beans AND the seal? And in such a bad way? Yeah.
Has Gohan been repeating the same character arcs in Super?
It certainly took long enough to really see him return to form.

Do you believe that any of the characters from other universes have compelling characterization?
"Compelling" is rather subjective. Some people absolutely hated Ribrianne. I was okay with her. Some people hated Caulifla and, to perhaps a greater extent, Kale (because she wasn't Broly), but I liked them. So, take it for what its worth. We have a bunch of other universes with some pretty interesting characters.

Do you think Super is doing a bad job with its characterization?
As I mentioned earlier, some writers/directors seem rather unfamiliar with the characters, and thus those ones suffer for it. While others give them pretty good moments.

Do you feel that character arcs in the show have been poorly handled or executed?
Vegeta embraced his role as caring father and husband in early Super, to continue where Z left off, and then added "teacher" to it. A role he embraced, in his own way. Not to mention, looking forward to being the father (overprotective) of Bra.
Goku... He had a good moment in the Goku Black arc that showed he really did care for Chichi and Goten... That's about it for him though, sadly.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:47 pm

We know they didn't like mortals but why not go all out and show mortals doing really bad things to justify their hate?
But we, as the viewers, already saw mortals doing really bad things, didn't we? Just think of what Vegeta, Frieza and Cell did back in Z. Just think of Universe 6's Earth, a once lush planet, turned into a toxic wasteland after the Eartlings' pointless wars that drove them to extinction. Or just think of Frost, who was faking his kindness, and was secretly making profit from the suffering of entire planets.
show us that Zamasu truly beleived in what he was doing and thought it would be best for the universe
But they did. I'll just post a few quotes from Zamasu that prove this:
"The one and only mistake among all divine creations. That is what mortals are. And this mistake is egregious. To shape existence into the beautiful utopia it was always meant to be, the mistake must be corrected. I will purge all mortals from existence. In place of the gods WHO REFUSE TO ADMIT FAILURE!!"
This is Goku Black's speech to Future Trunks. Goku Black clearly states that mortals are the only mistake of the Gods and that he wants to erase them so that he can shape the Multiverse into the beautiful and peaceful utopian world that it was always meant to be.
"This proves it. As long as mortals exist, the Multiverse will have no peace."
This is what Zamasu thinks upon watching the Barbari grunts sully their planet with their violence and waste the gifts granted to them by the Gods -- intellect, mind, life. This quote proves that Zamasu's desire is Multiversal peace, and that the only way to achieve it is by erasing all mortals.
"Mortals do not succumb to evil, they are the evil. They create it, and spread it with minds they shouldn't possess. How can we call ourselves gods if we watch this plight and do nothing to stop it?"
Zamasu believes mortals are evil because he witnessed the Babari sully their world with violence, and the arrogant Goku who sullied the sacred ground of the Kais by raising his fists at a God. He witnessed many other examples of mortals being foolish, which leads him to question the stance of his master. How can they call themselves Gods, if all they do is watch this plight without using their divine powers to stop it?
"The world is beautiful. But the ugliness of mortals soils its beauty. Therefore, we will destroy all mortals, and reclaim the beautiful world!"
This is stated by Future Zamasu and again we can see that Zamasu's desire is to restore the original beauty of the world by erasing all mortals that only sully it with their violence.

And personally, this is the most significant quote of Zamasu:
"All of this is for the Universe... For the world."
This is what Fused Zamasu states when fighting Vegito. There you have it. He states clearly that he is acting in the best interests of the Universe and the world, and even cries because he truly believes that what he is doing is not only driven by divine justice and the desire for peace, but is necessary to shape the beautiful utopia that the Multiverse was always meant to be.

Zamasu was extremely arrogant, vainglorious and narcissistic (even hypocritical) and believed that he was the perfect God, the only God that the Multiverse needed (and even murdered his fellow Kais because they stood in the way of the Project Zero Mortals). However, Zamasu's first and foremost goal has always been eternal peace for the Multiverse.
That hardly justifies deciding to wipe out every mortal in every universe and timeline.
Planet Barbari is not the first example that Zamasu saw. He himself states that he has witnessed countless examples that prove mortal foolishness. If you see that your creation is constantly acting in a foolish and flawed way, it is your duty as a creator to put an end to it.
Zamasu isn't human, so stuff that would emotionally effect a normal person, like say a mortal committing a heinous crime on another mortal, wouldn't effect him at all on an emotional level, because he would view it as the bestial actions of lesser, primitive creatures.
Exactly! I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:25 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:-snip-
I honestly don't understand how someone is able to take Zamasu seriously when the show tries its damnest to portray the character as an absolute joke.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:31 pm

Doctor. wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:-snip-
I honestly don't understand how someone is able to take Zamasu seriously when the show tries its damnest to portray the character as an absolute joke.
What? You haven't been paying attention if you think the show was trying to portray Zamasu as an absolute joke character.
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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:33 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:-snip-
I honestly don't understand how someone is able to take Zamasu seriously when the show tries its damnest to portray the character as an absolute joke.
What? You haven't been paying attention if you think the show was trying to portray him as an absolute joke character.
Everyone mocks him. Goku thinks Black is gross. Gowasu thinks Zamasu's a failure. Goku and Vegetto punch him in the middle of a speech. Zamasu melodramatically cries and gets mocked for it.

Yep, portrayed as a joke whose ideals aren't meant to be taken seriously.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:40 pm

Everyone mocks him.
Just like everyone thinks Goku is stupid (just look at that scene when they are trying to understand who Black is, and everyone is astonished that Goku used his brain for once). Does this mean that the show portrays Goku as an absolute joke character?
Goku thinks Black is gross
Yes, because Black is sadistic and creepy, it's a trait of his personality.
Gowasu thinks Zamasu's a failure
Gowasu also thinks that Zamasu is 'his sin' that he will bear forever. So the fact that Gowasu thinks Zamasu is a 'failure' is very deep. In a way, it's like Gowasu lost his 'son' when his beloved apprentice was erased from existence. Especially because Zamasu had the most potential out of any Kai, since he was a fighting prodigy and had a strong sense of justice as well as a purity of heart. His descent into madness is thus even more tragic.
Goku and Vegetto punch him in the middle of a speech
A light-hearted moment that lasted for a few seconds does not mean that a character was portrayed as an absolute joke.
Zamasu melodramatically cries
His cry for the Universe proves that he truly believed that his actions were just. And what's wrong with crying? Fused Zamasu was extremely arrogant and full of himself and couldn't fathom the idea of losing after he had come so far in the Project Zero Mortals. Backed into a corner and surrounded by powerful enemies, Zamasu could no longer hold his fear towards the strength of mortals and desperation to win. And indeed his deformed body was the reflection of Zamasu's inner hatred and rage.

Even Goku cried when Roshi fainted in the fight against Universe 4 (even though they could just bring him back with the Dragon Balls, so he melodramatically cried), so this means that Goku is also an absolute joke.
and gets mocked for it.
I fail to see how Vegito acting cocky towards Fused Zamasu means that the writers' plan was to portray Zamasu as an absolute joke.

If Zamasu getting beaten by Vegito means that he is portrayed as an absolute joke, then the same can be said for many other characters, such as:

- Super Buu
- Jiren
- Goku
- Vegeta
- Krillin
- Gohan
- Frieza

So following your logic the above characters are also portrayed as an absolute joke.
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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:18 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:Just like everyone thinks Goku is stupid (just look at that scene when they are trying to understand who Black is, and everyone is astonished that Goku used his brain for once). Does this mean that the show portrays Goku as an absolute joke character?
...it means they portray his intelligence as a joke, yes. Just like they portray Zamasu's black-and-white ideology.
Yes, because Black is sadistic and creepy, it's a trait of his personality.
Yes, Black is intentionally over-the-top and camp, and that's part of his appeal; but the show is also self-aware that Black is an excessively exaggerated caricature and mocks itself for it, like when Goku calls Black creepy for his masochism, or when he says he's weird when Black's making his big speech after Rosé, or when Black pulls a scythe out of his ass, says he doesn't know what he did and then Zamasu gets punched in the face after making a speech about how fantastic Black's feat just was.

How old are you, though?

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:26 pm

...it means they portray his intelligence as a joke, yes. Just like they portray Zamasu's black-and-white ideology.
Except they also devoted a lot of time and effort to expand and elaborate Zamasu's ideology, so it's not a joke.
Yes, Black is intentionally over-the-top and camp, and that's part of his appeal; but the show is also self-aware that Black is an excessively exaggerated caricature and mocks itself for it, like when Goku calls Black creepy for his masochism, or when he says he's weird when Black's making his big speech after Rosé, or when Black pulls a scythe out of his ass, says he doesn't know what he did and then Zamasu gets punched in the face after making a speech about how fantastic Black's feat just was.
So a character is portrayed like an utter joke by the show because he had a few light-hearted moments. Then virtually every character is portrayed as an absolute joke by the show. In which case, I don't see what was the point of bringing that up.
How old are you, though?
Old enough to fully grasp the complexity of Zamasu's character.
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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:10 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:So a character is portrayed like an utter joke by the show because he had a few light-hearted moments. Then virtually every character is portrayed as an absolute joke by the show. In which case, I don't see what was the point of bringing that up.
Yes, this is Dragon Ball where each character is intentionally deeply flawed and every generic trope is mocked. The point of the Black arc was to show how ridiculously shallow Zamasu's ideals are.
Old enough to fully grasp the complexity of Zamasu's character.
It wasn't meant to antagonize you, I was asking you because you're seemingly obsessed with a character who's just a very basic manifestation of a popular archetype that has been done better elsewhere; at least when played straight, which is the way you want to interpret the writing in the arc. If you can recognize how Zamasu is basically a parody, then he's unique. I guess the appropriate question would be how much media outside of Dragon Ball you've consumed.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:26 pm

I don't know if Krillin's been brought up but he's gone in circles much like Gohan. I'm pretty sure he retires only to regain his fighting spirt twice .
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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:32 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:I don't know if Krillin's been brought up but he's gone in circles much like Gohan. I'm pretty sure he retires only to regain his fighting spirt twice .
Yes, though I feel that works in the context of the F arc. Freeza coming back is bound to induce some PTSD and make him doubt his own abilities. It's one of the few times where the modern coward Kuririn portrayal makes sense (even if everyone else besides Roshi thinking he's a weakling who can't do anything right and needs protecting is absolutely nonsensical). The episodes that repeat the same arc (75 and 76, I think) are terrible though. They were actually full of potential to develop Goku instead - there was a scene where Kuririn screamed at him and I thought Goku would have to think for once and realize that he's an anomaly and not everyone is a junkie like him. But nope, they just throw that away.

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Re: DB Super Character arcs and Characterization thread

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:36 am

Out of all the returning/classic characters really only Krillin, #18 (minus the infamous scene at the end of ToP), #17, Beerus, and Whis are written well. I used to say Bulma and Vegeta as well but when I look more closely, their portrayal actually makes me sick.

Strangely Goku and Chi-Chi are the worst case of flanderization/character regression.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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