I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by Kinokima » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:07 pm

RedHeat wrote:
sintzu wrote:
RedHeat wrote:sexism has roots in Dragon Ball.
How so ?
VegettoEX wrote: This statement is not reflective of Kanzenshuu as a website and is at odds with the ideals and mission of its community.
Feminism at its basic core is fighting for women's rights which is a great thing, I think we can all agree on that. But we can also agree or at least assume that the feminism Faisal is talking about isn't that at all, it's the type that goes after anyone with different viewes and calls them every name in the book. We can probably agree that feminism wasn't established to do that but has been taken advantage of in order to push an agenda that doesn't have much to do with women rights anymore.
There's a reason why it's called a "sausage fest"-- barely any female characters that have been introduced and none of them have had any prime roles (except maybe ChiChi, but she's just the comic relief these days). An argument can be made for 18, but she's been a non-character so far in Super.
Bulma?

Okay she is not a fighter but I think she is a great female character. She is not perfect and can sometimes be a bit too into herself but she is also highly intelligent and has helped out many times in her own way.

If DB has a main female character for me it would be Bulma.


Edit: Also sexism does not equal the hatred of women misogyny does.

I do think parts of Dragon Ball is sexist but it was also made in a different time when values were different so that has to be taken into account.


Edit 2: Also feminism does not= the hatred of men. Anyone who thinks that does not understand feminism.
Last edited by Kinokima on Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by Faisal Shourov » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:07 pm

sintzu wrote:
Feminism at its basic core is fighting for women's rights which is a great thing, I think we can all agree on that. But we can also agree or at least assume that the feminism Faisal is talking about isn't that at all, it's the type that goes after anyone with different viewes and calls them every name in the book. We can probably agree that feminism wasn't established to do that but has been taken advantage of in order to push an agenda that doesn't have much to do with women rights anymore.
You got me. I am in fact in support of more strong female characters really, I feel DBS is really skewed towards the male, as most modern anime have plenty of strong female protagonists/antagonists who're as strong as the male protagonists (like Erza from Fairy Tail, for example). Disliking the misandrist third wave feminism has nothing to do with disliking females. People are worrying here without any reason. And I hope the mods of Kanzenshuu don't become politically correct like buzzfeed, it would eventually kill the forum. People are really tired of SJWs now
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by gohan_black » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:16 pm

how can people deny that kale and kaulifia are both marry sue's? kale was ripping goku in ss blue. now kefla forcing goku to use ultra instinct again. there is no denying. toei wanted a marrry sue badly. both to expend the fan territory and has a feminist agenda. yes feminism exist in japan just as equally as in the west and its known.

ribrianne is not just a parody of magical girls. it will be an understatment to think that her size is not something they thought off. its about the advancment of SJW fat figures which feminism is famous for. hence why she transformed from a good looking girl to an overwhight one

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by gofishus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:25 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
gofishus wrote:Nah, Toriyama was making strong independent female characters since the beginning. In 1980s Japan where feminism was / is nonexistent, he was a pioneer.
I... really wouldn't go that far. In the same series, the vast majority of these women either got written out entirely or were ultimately relegated to "wife" at best or "educated-minded mother" at worst.
True but at the very least I can't think of other anime in the 1980s that would have done better for women..

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by Faisal Shourov » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:26 pm

gohan_black wrote:how can people deny that kale and kaulifia are both marry sue's? kale was ripping goku in ss blue. now kefla forcing goku to use ultra instinct again. there is no denying. toei wanted a marrry sue badly. both to expend the fan territory and has a feminist agenda. yes feminism exist in japan just as equally as in the west and its known.

ribrianne is not just a parody of magical girls. it will be an understatment to think that her size is not something they thought off. its about the advancment of SJW fat figures which feminism is famous for. hence why she transformed from a good looking girl to an overwhight one
Riribrianne is a meme, people in Japan absolutely don't idolize fat people. Most of the strong anime female protagonists have average (by Japanese standard) build. Average Japanese women aren't fat, why would they promote fatness? Fat acceptance is a western thing.

Erza, Mikasa, Sakura are some of the prominent female mainstream manga characters, none of them are fat. Trunks spirit sword was as much Mary Sue as Kale and Caulifla. Having more female characters doesn't mean feminism is creeping into Japan. Fat acceptance won't even make sense in Japanese context. You need to think from Japanese perspective.

Powerscaling has been issue in Super from U6 arc, it's unfair to hate on Kale and Caulifla for being female. DBS is doing a poor job of introducing strong female characters, but there's no politics behind this. They're just trying to get on par with modern shonen.
Last edited by Faisal Shourov on Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by Saturnine » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:34 pm

Yeah, also considering that 80 new fighters were introduced and like 3 of them were strong females also debunks this silly, paranoid notion.

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by MaskedRider » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:34 pm

gohan_black wrote:how can people deny that kale and kaulifia are both marry sue's? kale was ripping goku in ss blue. now kefla forcing goku to use ultra instinct again. there is no denying. toei wanted a marrry sue badly. both to expend the fan territory and has a feminist agenda. yes feminism exist in japan just as equally as in the west and its known.

ribrianne is not just a parody of magical girls. it will be an understatment to think that her size is not something they thought off. its about the advancment of SJW fat figures which feminism is famous for. hence why she transformed from a good looking girl to an overwhight one
You're looking for deeper truths where there are none. I'm not trying to sound rude to you personally but you shouldn't make a thread and expect everyone to agree with you, if you are being disagreed with more than being agreed with than take into consideration the thoughts people give to you. I mean, you're talking about "SJW" and "the feminist agenda" about a show produced in a country where they have shows about incest and having young girls literally saying point blank that they like male genitals.

Here is some advice, if you ever think, "Am I the only one...?" answer no because you will never be the only individual who thinks this way. Kanzenshuu is not the be all end all definitive Dragon Ball opinion fans should have. Nobody is saying they aren't mary sues (well there are, people like me don't think they are), just look at your local Hail Zeon (To clarify I do not hate him) comment section. I mean people are also giving Goku the sue treatment and calling him a black hole (?) stu, Trunks is called a mary stu. I'm honestly so sick of these stus.

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by Ziegander » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:34 pm

gohan_black wrote:how can people deny that kale and kaulifia are both marry sue's? kale was ripping goku in ss blue. now kefla forcing goku to use ultra instinct again. there is no denying. toei wanted a marrry sue badly. both to expend the fan territory and has a feminist agenda. yes feminism exist in japan just as equally as in the west and its known.

ribrianne is not just a parody of magical girls. it will be an understatment to think that her size is not something they thought off. its about the advancment of SJW fat figures which feminism is famous for. hence why she transformed from a good looking girl to an overwhight one
You are literally the poster child for everything wrong with the Dragon Ball community. You are figuratively cancer. :thumbup:
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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by iamthelaw7 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:52 pm

sintzu wrote:
RedHeat wrote:sexism has roots in Dragon Ball.
How so ?
In something that is typically male dominated, it's the idea that women can have a place too, compete and be successful. Or the idea of women having integral roles in the plot apart from helping men realize theirs. So it could be a woman being a strong leader, being a main character that contributes heavily to the plot or saves the day, is better at politics than other male characters, or in dragon ball being a powerful fighter that contributes to the plot in key ways. Chi-Chi and Videl do not contribute to the plot in a meaningful way, their roles are to simply support their male counterparts. As for Chi-Chi, the notion of the nagging house wife is a negative stereotype for married women. For Videl, it's the idea of women not automatically sacrificing everything for their man when they get married and keeping some independence, or having a career too. Or with Helles, showing that she is willing to sacrifice her universe because she wants Goku, rather than being a GoD who is a strong leader who tries to incorporate strategies to lead her universe to victory. Overall, in dragon ball there just haven't been many strong female protagonists that contribute to the plot in key ways, or are powerful fighters than can compete, or have attributes that show that women too can have meaningful roles in something that is typically male dominated - such as leadership, power, or strategic intelligence. Future Mai was different - showing her leadership, fighting in every way she can until the end, using strategies to try and win with human weapons that typically do not stand a chance, and saving the lives of others. But at the end of the day, she was there to support Future Trunks being the hero. Sexism incorporates a lot more than intentionally being demeaning to women, it also involves women's roles in society, the media, television, etc.

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by TheOne » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:55 pm

Ziegander wrote:
gohan_black wrote:how can people deny that kale and kaulifia are both marry sue's? kale was ripping goku in ss blue. now kefla forcing goku to use ultra instinct again. there is no denying. toei wanted a marrry sue badly. both to expend the fan territory and has a feminist agenda. yes feminism exist in japan just as equally as in the west and its known.

ribrianne is not just a parody of magical girls. it will be an understatment to think that her size is not something they thought off. its about the advancment of SJW fat figures which feminism is famous for. hence why she transformed from a good looking girl to an overwhight one
You are literally the poster child for everything wrong with the Dragon Ball community. You are figuratively cancer. :thumbup:
There’s nothing wrong with thinking that there were ulterior motives when saiyan female characters. At the end of the day the writers are human as well so we can’t assume that they won’t let outsiders/trends influence what they do.

I personally don’t like kale and caulifla. That’s mostly due to how they were introduced. Because of their sloppy introduction, that lead me to believe that there could be a hidden agenda behind them. All they did was sprinkle a little bit of “she’s a prodigy” or “she’s got untapped potential” etc. and everyone was cool with it. Everybody in these other universes are allegedly prodigies. That excuse gets old.

Just because I think there was a hidden agenda does not make me a sexist nor does it mean I’d be a cancer to the fan base or anyone else for that matter.
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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by Faisal Shourov » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:08 pm

TheOne wrote:
There’s nothing wrong with thinking that there were ulterior motives when saiyan female characters. At the end of the day the writers are human as well so we can’t assume that they won’t let outsiders/trends influence what they do.

I personally don’t like kale and caulifla. That’s mostly due to how they were introduced. Because of their sloppy introduction, that lead me to believe that there could be a hidden agenda behind them. All they did was sprinkle a little bit of “she’s a prodigy” or “she’s got untapped potential” etc. and everyone was cool with it. Everybody in these other universes are allegedly prodigies. That excuse gets old.

Just because I think there was a hidden agenda does not make me a sexist nor does it mean I’d be a cancer to the fan base.
There are problems though. Dragon Ball Super is aired with primarily Japanese kids in mind. Average Japanese women are not fat like Riribrianne, so fat acceptance won't make any sense in Japan as a political agenda. As for Kale and Caulifla strong because of feminism, shonen manga had many strong female characters since last decade and several female characters have been stronger than the male protagonist (Kaguya was stronger than everybody in Naruto and Erza was stronger than Natsu for most of Fairy Tail). That's just natural progression of greater female visibility and equality, which has nothing to do with the current third wave western feminism. Kale and Caulifla powerups were BS like Trunks' that's why their entrance seems bad. However his argument had false equivalency and without keeping the cultural differences and context in mind.
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by gohan_black » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:10 pm

Lets not forget the lesbian thing between kale and cauliflia

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:18 pm

We have 1 female Hakaishin out of 12, only the 1/3 of the angels are female, and the supreme gods and their attendants and bodyguards are all male.

Only one member (out of 10) of the protagonist's team is female. All of the rest of them are male. The primary protagonist is male. All of his main rivals and antagonists have been male.

Yet the mere inclusion of a handful of respectable, powerful female characters is somehow unfairly diminishing the male characters?

This kind of attitude is why feminism is needed.
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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by Torturephile » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:24 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Torturephile wrote:I don't think Japan is on a wave of feminazis like the U.S. is.
This kind of specific drive-by commentary is eyeroll-inducing and not particularly welcome. Please add actual substance to your posts.
I'll do. I don't have much unique to add since others have commented my thoughts, albeit better than what I could do.

I don't happen to follow what's going on in Japan due to lack of connection I have for that country, but as far as I can tell, the feminism movement isn't particularly strong over there, considering how different culture is over there in comparison to the U.S., and this is why I don't believe Caulifla, Kale, and Ribrianne were created for.

I believe they were created based on the concept of different universes. One of them they decided was the parallel of U7 and that it still has the entire species of saiyans living an active life, opposite of humans, while the other they decided that it would be a parody of the shojo anime-types. Why not bring fighters based on such concepts into the tournament? Another reason they were created is due to the rarity of female fighters in Dragon Ball. Before Super, for example, we only had Android 18, Selipa, and Zangya, and even then they never got to be as prevalent as Piccolo, at least, and one (or two) of them aren't canon.

Female saiyans have been a popular concept that haven't been present much in the canon series. We had Selipa, but she was a minor character in the Bardock special. We also had Pan and Bra, but they only appeared and were minor characters, the former less so, at the EoZ. They tried to give Pan prevalence in GT, but it failed miserably for fans due to her being a damsel in distress, having an overly whiny personality, and being a spotlight-stealing squad. With Super, they had another shot, and we got Caulifla and Kale, who unfortunately went on to become borderline scrappy characters to the fandom due to their execution, similar to GT Pan.

Then we get to Ribrianne. Toriyama has gone on the record that he likes to do the opposite of what should be done or expected. For example, we first saw Vegeta and Nappa, and the former was the leader of the latter and the stronger out of the two. Another example is the main villains' most harmless-looking form being their best. When we first saw the first next episode preview for episode 91, we saw a beautiful green-haired lady. No one thought for a second that she was the fat girl fighting Vegeta in the opening, and that she would be a parody of shojo anime.
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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by Faisal Shourov » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:27 pm

gohan_black wrote:Lets not forget the lesbian thing between kale and cauliflia
Have you ever seen any women in real life or watched any other anime besides Dragon Ball? Women hold hands and kiss on each all the time, that's just female way of showing friendship. You seem very naive honestly. You don't know much about Japan yet worried about anime being taken over by feminism. You do realize the two of the top three most popular characters in Fairy Tail are two female characters, right? Fanservice is extremely popular in Japan right now. In harem and ecchi anime female characters outnumber males by a huge margin, and ecchi anime are extremely popular in Japan. How much do you keep track of current shonen anime?

https://twitter.com/fairytwiki/status/4 ... 93?lang=en

If you don't watch any anime and don't keep track of anime industry, then try not to make ignorant posts. Kale and Caulifla have nothing to do with feminism.
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by TheOne » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:49 pm

Faisal Shourov wrote:
TheOne wrote:
There’s nothing wrong with thinking that there were ulterior motives when saiyan female characters. At the end of the day the writers are human as well so we can’t assume that they won’t let outsiders/trends influence what they do.

I personally don’t like kale and caulifla. That’s mostly due to how they were introduced. Because of their sloppy introduction, that lead me to believe that there could be a hidden agenda behind them. All they did was sprinkle a little bit of “she’s a prodigy” or “she’s got untapped potential” etc. and everyone was cool with it. Everybody in these other universes are allegedly prodigies. That excuse gets old.

Just because I think there was a hidden agenda does not make me a sexist nor does it mean I’d be a cancer to the fan base.
There are problems though. Dragon Ball Super is aired with primarily Japanese kids in mind. Average Japanese women are not fat like Riribrianne, so fat acceptance won't make any sense in Japan as a political agenda. As for Kale and Caulifla strong because of feminism, shonen manga had many strong female characters since last decade and several female characters have been stronger than the male protagonist (Kaguya was stronger than everybody in Naruto and Erza was stronger than Natsu for most of Fairy Tail). That's just natural progression of greater female visibility and equality, which has nothing to do with the current third wave western feminism. Kale and Caulifla powerups were BS like Trunks' that's why their entrance seems bad. However his argument had false equivalency and without keeping the cultural differences and context in mind.
I had no problems with Brianne being fat. My primary issue was the ridiculousness of kale and caulifla.

I also have no problem with females being stronger than males. Lots of anime’s have given females plenty of strong roles like you said, but dragon ball wasn’t really known for that. Now it almost seems like they’re trying to play catch up by introducing them in a sloppy manner. I also had a problem with the power up they gave Trunks. Him and Vegeta are my favorite dragon ball characters. In your defense, they’ve handled both female and male power up sloppily. But by no means am I sexist when I don’t like how they were introduced and I think there was a personal agenda behind it. Even if they were male characters, I’d still be annoyed.
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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by Faisal Shourov » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:58 pm

TheOne wrote:

I also have no problem with females being stronger than males. Lots of anime’s have given females plenty of strong roles like you said, but dragon ball wasn’t really known for that. Now it almost seems like they’re trying to play catch up by introducing them in a sloppy manner. I also had a problem with the power up they gave Trunks. Him and Vegeta are my favorite dragon ball characters. In your defense, they’ve handled both female and male power up sloppily. But by no means am I sexist when I don’t like how they were introduced and I think there was a personal agenda behind it. Even if they were male characters, I’d still be annoyed.
There's absolutely no personal agenda. None. Super IS trying to catch up with other shonen anime, it's long overdue. Kale and Caulifla are here for fanservice. Japan loves fanservice and ecchi anime. They're obsessed with moe and tsundere characters. You want to think of possible agenda? If you have watched Naruto and haven't finished it yet, [spoiler]Kaguya replacing Madara as the final villain of Naruto, and being by far the strongest character in the series[/spoiler] could be an agenda. Even then that's not agenda, just very poor writing and execution. Not this. I too hate how Kale and Caulifla got asspull powerup like Trunks. But this is just bad writing which has plagued Super since U6 arc.

For example, in One Piece (the most popular manga of all time) Luffy will soon be fighting Big Mom, the primary antagonist who's a female and one of the top 10 strongest characters in the entire series. Unlike Kale and Caulfia, Big Mom isn't a fanservice character, she's ugly and fat. Nobody has called out Big Mom for feminism, even though she's fat. Given how Dragon Ball has yet to create a primary female antagonist (18 barely even qualifies as an antagonist), it has a lot of catch up to do. I also feel sorry for the fanbase for being so ignorant on anime in general.
Last edited by Faisal Shourov on Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by MrWalnut4 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:07 pm

gohan_black wrote:how can people deny that kale and kaulifia are both marry sue's? kale was ripping goku in ss blue. now kefla forcing goku to use ultra instinct again. there is no denying. toei wanted a marrry sue badly. both to expend the fan territory and has a feminist agenda. yes feminism exist in japan just as equally as in the west and its known.

ribrianne is not just a parody of magical girls. it will be an understatment to think that her size is not something they thought off. its about the advancment of SJW fat figures which feminism is famous for. hence why she transformed from a good looking girl to an overwhight one
Occam's razor is a powerful tool. It's better to not assume ulterior motives in things that are easily explained by other factors. Powerful characters appearing that unrealistically challenge Goku and push him to achieve new heights is not a new idea in Dragon Ball. It seems that you are simply taking issue with the fact that they are female this time. They are just as much "Mary Sue's" as Frieza or Cell by your apparent criteria. Turn off the conspiratorial thinking and analyze the situation as it actually is and you will find many fewer boogeymen behind every corner.

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by Majin Jator » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:09 pm

Faisal Shourov wrote:
Powerscaling has been issue in Super from U6 arc, it's unfair to hate on Kale and Caulifla for being female. DBS is doing a poor job of introducing strong female characters, but there's no politics behind this. They're just trying to get on par with modern shonen.
A "correction", if you don't mind: DBS is doing a poor job of introducing new characters, regardless of their genre or power level.
Jiren wasn't even introduced before the tournament besides some mention and two seconds of him meditating. We don't know how he has become that strong. And sure, he receives some flak for it, but nothing comparable with the amount of vitriol towards Caulifla.

"But she achieves transformations too easily" some say. Please, explain to me how could Vegeta achieve SSB,without head-cannon or any other form of bullshit. "She's a braggart!" Again, like Vegeta (and any other character in the franchise when they are first introduced as opponents). Yet Caulifla receives the hate and Vegeta is adored by all the edgelords of the internet*.

It may seems - and I'm sure the OP is going to love my conclusion- that the difference between being a Bad Ass or a Mary Sue is in the nethers.


*DISCLAIMER: You don't need to be an edgelord to be a fan of Vegeta.

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Re: I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

Post by Faisal Shourov » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:14 pm

Majin Jator wrote: A "correction", if you don't mind: DBS is doing a poor job of introducing new characters, regardless of their genre or power level.
Jiren wasn't even introduced before the tournament besides some mention and two seconds of him meditating. We don't know how he has become that strong. And sure, he receives some flak for it, but nothing comparable with the amount of vitriol towards Caulifla.

"But she achieves transformations too easily". Please, explain to me how could Vegeta achieve SSB,without head-cannon or any pther form of bullshit. "She's a braggart!" Again, like Vegeta (and any other character in the franchise when they are first introduced as opponents). Yet Caulifla receives the hate and Vegeta is adored by all the edgelords of the internet*.

It may seems - and I'm sure the OP is going to love my theory- that the difference between being a Bad Ass or a Mary Sue is in the nethers.


*DISCLAIMER: You don't need to be an edgelord to be a fan of Vegeta.
I don't mind, powerscaling and poor introduction has been a bane of Super since its inception.
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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