Power scaling is not important anymore.

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Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by julianix » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:14 pm

I think that it's become clear that neither Toriyama or Toei care one bit about keeping power scaling under control. Everything super has done from the very beginning has been pure fan service. Every power up has been written to fit the agenda they have, which is to keep throwing new forms out to captivate the little kids/girls. It doesn't matter if it makes sense anymore.

The next couple of episodes are going to break the internet if ssbkk Goku loses to kefla. People just have to brace themselves for it. Throw power levels out the window. They mean absolutely nothing in super.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by RedHeat » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:16 pm

Yeah, I agree. I'm loving the fanservice nonetheless, though.

Edit: I'm ready to throw my life out the window after I'm dying of laughter when that happens.
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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:33 pm

Power scaling still exists to some extent. Characters are stronger or weajer than others. The problem with power scaling is that it people get caught up on how strong a character 'deserves' to be based on some arbitrary criteria instead of focusing on how strong they are relative to one another.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Grimlock » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:33 pm

Power scaling stopped being important since Movie 15, actually. With Muten Roshi being able to defeat Freeza's soldiers. Since then, I don't pay attention to power level anymore, and I think it was the smartest decision, considering I don't have to think about power level (nor thinking "is someone really that strong/weak?" anymore). That prevents headaches. People should really try to do the same, we wouldn't have so many fights out there.

The characters will be as strong as the writers need them to be. No matter if it's nonsense or not.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:49 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:Power scaling still exists to some extent.
Nope power scaling is completely gone and since a good while lol
The problem with power scaling is that it people get caught up on how strong a character 'deserves' to be based on some arbitrary criteria instead of focusing on how strong they are relative to one another.
What are you even? Power levels are exactly power levels, a SSJ1 can't beat a SSJ3 does that makes sense to you lol that's not an arbitrary criteria that's just how things were established but Super just ignores it personally I got used to it and don't care anymore but things are what they are lol

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by buutenks » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:56 pm

Ssg Goku tanked controlled berserk Kale's attack like it was nothing, so power scaling still exists. And the ssj1&2 n ssg vs Jiren show power scaling again.

And what is wrong with Kefla being ssj blue level?

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Lionel » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:16 pm

If there was an utter lack of power scaling and cohesion then anything by anyone would be fair play. One minute you could witness Daishinkan stopping the Hakaishin with a finger each only to get taken out by Chaozu glaring at him in the next. Appule could miraculously return from the dead, have a showdown with Hit, and then shrug his way through the Tokitobashi before crushing Hit to death with his long spotted purple head à la Dodoria.

I think it's more appropriate to say that any meticulous arrangement of power structure on an episodic level has been compromised and ignored on occasions to accommodate whatever new aim the studio and Toriyama is aiming for.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:30 pm

Power scaling stopped being important after Roshi blew up the moon with BP of 180. The single handedly fucked up everything because it happened way too early in the story.

Think about it.

Goku fires a Kamehameha, right down at the Earth on Piccolo in the 23rd WMAT, which is more than five times stronger that what Roshi dished out to turn the moon to space dust, and nothing happens. How the hell did that Kamehameha not take out a decent chunk of the planet? I mean that Kamehameha has to be strong enough to defeat Piccolo but at the same time stronger than the blast it took from Roshi to blow up the moon as Piccolo was far stronger than Roshi at that stage. So you would expect some major collateral damage as a result. But... nope. The ring just blows up somewhat. That Kamehameha from Goku should have created a crater the size of America, at the very least.

And then when Vegeta powered up at the beginning of his fight against Goku in the Saiyan arc, he created cyclones, turned the skies dark and literally made the whole world shake. And yet the only time we see anything even remotely similar to that is when Goku is powering up... into a SSJ3. Which is tens of millions stronger than anything we see in the Saiyan arc. What?

And then later in the Namek arc, we see that you don't need a big gap in strength at all to kill you opponent, as clearly demonstrated with Vegeta and Zarbon fight each other. Hell, a very minuscule gap in power is more than enough to overwhelm and kill your opponent. Yet when Goku hits Vegeta, who has a BP of 18,000, with his KKx4 Kamehameha, which has a BP of over 32,000, Vegeta survives and still has enough in the tank to keep fighting. How the hell does Vegeta not instantly die from an attack that? He should have been vaporized.

How characters that are ten times or hundreds of times stronger that Roshi or Saiyan arc Vegeta don't casually nuke the planet from even the most simplest of ki blast and powering up is beyond me.

Characters in Dragon Ball are as impressive in showing of their strength as the plot needs them to be. It's been that way since 1986.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:39 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Power scaling stopped being important after Roshi blew up the moon with BP of 180.
Disagree, you can find inconsistencies no doubt but through all DB up to the EoZ you could more or less tell who was stronger depending on power level and how far the transformation, completely dismissing ANYTHING on that regard is a specialty from Super lol

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Zephyr » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:50 pm

There is, and always has been, a pretty clear broad power scale. For instance, Whis is clearly stronger than Goku, who is clearly stronger than Piccolo, who is clearly stronger than Krillin, who is clearly stronger than Mr. Satan, who is clearly stronger than Bulma, who is clearly stronger than Marron. That's a power scale. And it's often very fuzzy and open to interpretation the more characters, forms, and training regimens you add to it. Always has been, always will be.

What is not important, and never has been important, are the more microscopic and pedantic differences, like precisely how much stronger someone is than someone else, and what that means for what FEETZ they're supposed to be able to perform.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Meshack » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:05 pm

It is important. Why do you think Beerus is so much stronger than Gokuh and Vegeta? Why do you think Gokuh said that Vegetto wasn’t enough for Beerus? Why do you think Toriyama originally wrote Potara Zamasu and Black not strong at all? Why do you think Gokuh said Piccolo was no match for Frost? I’m waiting...

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Meshack » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:07 pm

Grimlock wrote:Power scaling stopped being important since Movie 15, actually. With Muten Roshi being able to defeat Freeza's soldiers. Since then, I don't pay attention to power level anymore, and I think it was the smartest decision, considering I don't have to think about power level (nor thinking "is someone really that strong/weak?" anymore). That prevents headaches. People should really try to do the same, we wouldn't have so many fights out there.

The characters will be as strong as the writers need them to be. No matter if it's nonsense or not.
We know that Kame-Sennin has been secretly training. We also know that the Freeza Army was weakened. The soldiers with the highest battle powers were Tagoma and Shisami but were on the level of Zarbon and Dodoria. Abo and Cado probably quit the Freeza Army since they didn’t appear in the film or arc.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:30 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:Power scaling still exists to some extent.
Nope power scaling is completely gone and since a good while lol
The problem with power scaling is that it people get caught up on how strong a character 'deserves' to be based on some arbitrary criteria instead of focusing on how strong they are relative to one another.
What are you even? Power levels are exactly power levels, a SSJ1 can't beat a SSJ3 does that makes sense to you lol that's not an arbitrary criteria that's just how things were established but Super just ignores it personally I got used to it and don't care anymore but things are what they are lol
If power scaling was gone Jiren would be fair game to anyone in that arena. Guess what? He's not. And Beerus or Whis wouldn't be untouchable.

And yes, a Super Saiyan can beat a Super Saiyan 3 if their base power was high enough. Goku as Super Saiyan right now is stronger than either he or Gotenks were as SS3 in the Buu saga. That's how it works.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:51 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Power scaling stopped being important after Roshi blew up the moon with BP of 180.
Disagree, you can find inconsistencies no doubt but through all DB up to the EoZ you could more or less tell who was stronger depending on power level and how far the transformation, completely dismissing ANYTHING on that regard is a specialty from Super lol
Super is pretty straight forward with who is stronger than who.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Nickolaidas » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:59 pm

It's not so much 'power scaling is gone' as is 'power scaling is completely arbitrary'.

Though Lord Beerus posted it quite nicely a few posts ago - power scaling was always fucked up.

Roshi's PL was 127 back in DB. Which means that Kid Goku had a PL of 127 back in the 21st Budokai.

Tao Pai Pai annihilates him, which means that in DB terms, Tao should have at least double the PL of Goku's (let's say 260). So, when Goku did the Korin training and flat out murdered him, he should have a PL of 300 at least.

And yet, Goku trains for the 22nd Budokai, gets Zenkai'd by Daimao, gets juiced up by Korin for Daimao, trains for Piccolo Jr in the 23rd Budokai ... and after all that, his PL is 416? All those battles simply increased his PL by a third of his current PL?

That's. Complete. And utter. Bullshit.

So yeah, power scaling was always fucked up.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by julianix » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:20 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Power scaling stopped being important after Roshi blew up the moon with BP of 180. The single handedly fucked up everything because it happened way too early in the story.

Think about it.

Goku fires a Kamehameha, right down at the Earth on Piccolo in the 23rd WMAT, which is more than five times stronger that what Roshi dished out to turn the moon to space dust, and nothing happens. How the hell did that Kamehameha not take out a decent chunk of the planet? I mean that Kamehameha has to be strong enough to defeat Piccolo but at the same time stronger than the blast it took from Roshi to blow up the moon as Piccolo was far stronger than Roshi at that stage. So you would expect some major collateral damage as a result. But... nope. The ring just blows up somewhat. That Kamehameha from Goku should have created a crater the size of America, at the very least.

And then when Vegeta powered up at the beginning of his fight against Goku in the Saiyan arc, he created cyclones, turned the skies dark and literally made the whole world shake. And yet the only time we see anything even remotely similar to that is when Goku is powering up... into a SSJ3. Which is tens of millions stronger than anything we see in the Saiyan arc. What?

And then later in the Namek arc, we see that you don't need a big gap in strength at all to kill you opponent, as clearly demonstrated with Vegeta and Zarbon fight each other. Hell, a very minuscule gap in power is more than enough to overwhelm and kill your opponent. Yet when Goku hits Vegeta, who has a BP of 18,000, with his KKx4 Kamehameha, which has a BP of over 32,000, Vegeta survives and still has enough in the tank to keep fighting. How the hell does Vegeta not instantly die from an attack that? He should have been vaporized.

How characters that are ten times or hundreds of times stronger that Roshi or Saiyan arc Vegeta don't casually nuke the planet from even the most simplest of ki blast and powering up is beyond me.

Characters in Dragon Ball are as impressive in showing of their strength as the plot needs them to be. It's been that way since 1986.
That makes a lot of sense if you look at it from a technical perspective. However, although I agree with you I don't look at it at that level. I just remember watching dbz knowing for the most part what level every character was. Like I knew Zarbon was stronger than Vegeta but not by much. Like I also knew that if Vegeta got a bit stronger he could turn the tide on him. Like I could somewhat assume that although Piccolo trained while he was dead he wasn't as strong as Vegeta at that time frame. Everything kind of made sense.

Now it's crazy. I have no idea what's going on. Characters are on one level one day and on another the next.

I'll give you an example. After everything we've seen we should kind of know where beerus stands by now. Beerus should be arguably stronger than ssg Goku right? But we all questioned if Beerus still had that much of an edge after Goku used kk in his ssb form right?

So now we have ultra instinct. One would think Goku is stronger than Beerus. But in super I'm sure that's not the case. Beerus could still be miles ahead of Goku. It's anybodies guess.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:31 pm

julianix wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Power scaling stopped being important after Roshi blew up the moon with BP of 180. The single handedly fucked up everything because it happened way too early in the story.

Think about it.

Goku fires a Kamehameha, right down at the Earth on Piccolo in the 23rd WMAT, which is more than five times stronger that what Roshi dished out to turn the moon to space dust, and nothing happens. How the hell did that Kamehameha not take out a decent chunk of the planet? I mean that Kamehameha has to be strong enough to defeat Piccolo but at the same time stronger than the blast it took from Roshi to blow up the moon as Piccolo was far stronger than Roshi at that stage. So you would expect some major collateral damage as a result. But... nope. The ring just blows up somewhat. That Kamehameha from Goku should have created a crater the size of America, at the very least.

And then when Vegeta powered up at the beginning of his fight against Goku in the Saiyan arc, he created cyclones, turned the skies dark and literally made the whole world shake. And yet the only time we see anything even remotely similar to that is when Goku is powering up... into a SSJ3. Which is tens of millions stronger than anything we see in the Saiyan arc. What?

And then later in the Namek arc, we see that you don't need a big gap in strength at all to kill you opponent, as clearly demonstrated with Vegeta and Zarbon fight each other. Hell, a very minuscule gap in power is more than enough to overwhelm and kill your opponent. Yet when Goku hits Vegeta, who has a BP of 18,000, with his KKx4 Kamehameha, which has a BP of over 32,000, Vegeta survives and still has enough in the tank to keep fighting. How the hell does Vegeta not instantly die from an attack that? He should have been vaporized.

How characters that are ten times or hundreds of times stronger that Roshi or Saiyan arc Vegeta don't casually nuke the planet from even the most simplest of ki blast and powering up is beyond me.

Characters in Dragon Ball are as impressive in showing of their strength as the plot needs them to be. It's been that way since 1986.
That makes a lot of sense if you look at it from a technical perspective. However, although I agree with you I don't look at it at that level. I just remember watching dbz knowing for the most part what level every character was. Like I knew Zarbon was stronger than Vegeta but not by much. Like I also knew that if Vegeta got a bit stronger he could turn the tide on him. Like I could somewhat assume that although Piccolo trained while he was dead he wasn't as strong as Vegeta at that time frame. Everything kind of made sense.

Now it's crazy. I have no idea what's going on. Characters are on one level one day and on another the next.

I'll give you an example. After everything we've seen we should kind of know where beerus stands by now. Beerus should be arguably stronger than ssg Goku right? But we all questioned if Beerus still had that much of an edge after Goku used kk in his ssb form right?

So now we have ultra instinct. One would think Goku is stronger than Beerus. But in super I'm sure that's not the case. Beerus could still be miles ahead of Goku. It's anybodies guess.
Eh. I just chalk Beerus' true strength as retcon in power. Which Dragon Ball does quite often. An it's alleviated by how the show establishes how much Beerus bullshits just how strong he is, and by Toriyama stating that he has no plans for Goku or Vegeta to surpass Beerus.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:59 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Super is pretty straight forward with who is stronger than who.
BlueBasilisk wrote:And yes, a Super Saiyan can beat a Super Saiyan 3 if their base power was high enough. Goku as Super Saiyan right now is stronger than either he or Gotenks were as SS3 in the Buu saga. That's how it works.
I hear you guys, Super is pretty straight forward telling you SSJ1 can beat SSJ3 because that's how it works lol
Look I don't even care it's fine to me lol
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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:06 pm

Because fan service totally isn't the bane of good story telling. Just look at Episode of Bard- oh wait, just look at the Black ar- oh wait, just look at Resurrection F- oh fucking wait.

And yes, having good reasons for why/how people in a show about self improvement improve from arc to arc should work on some level. You've got people debating how Goku's powers work, I repeat, we do not have a fucking clue how the protagonists powers even work. The protagonists core powers!

I don't get a crap what you say, that's not a good thing in a fighting series about self improvement.
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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Faisal Shourov » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:24 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:Power scaling still exists to some extent. Characters are stronger or weajer than others. The problem with power scaling is that it people get caught up on how strong a character 'deserves' to be based on some arbitrary criteria instead of focusing on how strong they are relative to one another.
Power scaling died back in U6 arc. Now it's whoever the episode writer wants to win
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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