Power scaling is not important anymore.

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MajinMan
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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by MajinMan » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:45 pm

Why do people use battle powers when talking about OG DB? BP's didn't exist back then, and just because some guidebook throws around random numbers for everyone doesn't mean that battle power numbers are relevent in power scaling OG DB. I can't believe I justdefended power scaling debates...
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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by TheOne » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 pm

Meshack wrote:
Grimlock wrote:Power scaling stopped being important since Movie 15, actually. With Muten Roshi being able to defeat Freeza's soldiers. Since then, I don't pay attention to power level anymore, and I think it was the smartest decision, considering I don't have to think about power level (nor thinking "is someone really that strong/weak?" anymore). That prevents headaches. People should really try to do the same, we wouldn't have so many fights out there.

The characters will be as strong as the writers need them to be. No matter if it's nonsense or not.
We know that Kame-Sennin has been secretly training. We also know that the Freeza Army was weakened. The soldiers with the highest battle powers were Tagoma and Shisami but were on the level of Zarbon and Dodoria. Abo and Cado probably quit the Freeza Army since they didn’t appear in the film or arc.
Please tell me you aren’t gullible enough to to believe that. It’s clear he was sided in Z and they only said that so they could justify using him again. He was never meant to actually be used again for battle prior to the Super.
How i predict the tournament will end:

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Kuwabara » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:08 pm

It's weird to me that people are so quick to fling their arms up about things like Trunks being able to attack Goku Black or base Goku holding his own against Caulifla and Kale when transformed.

After his weird quasi-transformation, Trunks didn't even do much damage to Goku Black at all, he merely caught Black off guard. Piccolo did the same thing to Freeza while Goku charged the Genki Dama on Namek, and Vegeta as a Super Saiyan caught Beerus off guard as well. I don't think I need to say which characters are stronger in these instances... As far as Goku and the girls go, he sandbagged and still has decades of experience on them. Maybe I'll eat crow after something stupid happens in tonight's episode, we'll see...

Before Battle of Gods, I remember people commonly agreeing on things like base Goku and even Krillin at the end of Z being able to beat Freeza in his final form on Namek, which seems logical to me. Transformation isn't a deciding factor if a character's base power and experience is higher from the get go.

The only instance in Super where power scaling felt meaningless to me was the exchange between Goku and Android 17... One could argue that Goku was sandbagging then too, but it's a bit of a stretch.
TheOne wrote:Please tell me you aren’t gullible enough to to believe that. It’s clear he was sided in Z and they only said that so they could justify using him again. He was never meant to actually be used again for battle prior to the Super.
He isn't gullible about anything, give me a break. Authors can make up whatever they want, as they need to. You might as well complain about Goku and Piccolo being aliens. :lol:
This is the episode of when Gokuh enrages himself after Freezer talk shit about Kuririn

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Meshack » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:05 pm

TheOne wrote:
Meshack wrote:
Grimlock wrote:Power scaling stopped being important since Movie 15, actually. With Muten Roshi being able to defeat Freeza's soldiers. Since then, I don't pay attention to power level anymore, and I think it was the smartest decision, considering I don't have to think about power level (nor thinking "is someone really that strong/weak?" anymore). That prevents headaches. People should really try to do the same, we wouldn't have so many fights out there.

The characters will be as strong as the writers need them to be. No matter if it's nonsense or not.
We know that Kame-Sennin has been secretly training. We also know that the Freeza Army was weakened. The soldiers with the highest battle powers were Tagoma and Shisami but were on the level of Zarbon and Dodoria. Abo and Cado probably quit the Freeza Army since they didn’t appear in the film or arc.
Please tell me you aren’t gullible enough to to believe that. It’s clear he was sided in Z and they only said that so they could justify using him again. He was never meant to actually be used again for battle prior to the Super.
He was sidelined in Z but probably he wanted to train after Battle of Gods

EDIT: Battle of Gods and Resurrection F are Dragon Ball Z, a continuation of the Majin-Boo Arc, the same thing Super is. He was just sidelined for most of Z

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Timetraveller » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:40 am

julianix wrote:I think that it's become clear that neither Toriyama or Toei care one bit about keeping power scaling under control. Everything super has done from the very beginning has been pure fan service. Every power up has been written to fit the agenda they have, which is to keep throwing new forms out to captivate the little kids/girls. It doesn't matter if it makes sense anymore.
So you're telling me the only thing GT had to do to please everyone was give everyone a new transformation and add in a whole bunch of fanservice? Super Saiyan 5 Pan, Master Roshi fighting Omega Shenron, Goten, Trunks and Gohan all unlock Ultra Instinct and fuse. Explains why the Dragonball Heroes thing is doing so well

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Grimlock » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:49 am

Timetraveller wrote:Explains why the Dragonball Heroes thing is doing so well
Nowadays? Because they give the chance for characters to appear and get some attention that they don't even dream to get in the series; because it actually has a plot; and a plot more interesting than holding another tournament.

Obviously transformations are what will get people's attention, but that ain't the only excuse anymore. We don't know if Dragon Ball GT would be better if it had given transformations for everyone, but it would certainly be better if other characters also had their chance to do something, not just Goku.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Tian » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:38 am

The power levels are thing of the past now. It's like Akira and Toei said "Screw the power levels, we have money".

That's why you got SSBlue having a hard time with 17.
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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:07 am

Tian wrote:The power levels are thing of the past now. It's like Akira and Toei said "Screw the power levels, we have money".

That's why you got SSBlue having a hard time with 17.
But isn't powerlevels Toriyama's excuse for avoiding actually coming up creative situations. So wouldn't it be more appropriate to say "Screw interesting writing, powerlevels give us the money money money."

I just find it strange that people equate adhereing to powerlevels to putting effort into writing, when actually the opposite is true.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by larzooma » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:01 am

Tian wrote:The power levels are thing of the past now. It's like Akira and Toei said "Screw the power levels, we have money".

That's why you got SSBlue having a hard time with 17.
There's some pretty questionable examples of power scaling, but I can never understand why people choose 17. They never established the speed at which an Android can gain power, and as someone without the need to rest, eat, or build back stamina, it's possible he trained every free moment for a decade to reach his current level. Although somewhat weak and without expounding further, Dende comments he's actually had to defend the Earth on different occasions when the team was elsewhere in the Multiverse, which could have been against pretty powerful enemies.

Unlimited Stamina + Indefinable amount of time necessary to gain power + a decade of unknown and possibly intense training = a character logically capable of making pretty significant gains since his last appearance.

I know a good portion of DB fans can't get past the notion another character outside the Saiyan and Half-Blood Saiyan characters can possibly increase their power to high levels through training, we've been shown countless examples of fighters from all races making substantial jumps with the proper motivation and training.

For example, Piccolo made pretty big gains while training for the "Androids" Trunks told them about, enough so he was close to SSJ level. He also made further gains in the RoSaT prior to the Cell games, enough so Goku commented on his increase. Android 18 also continued to grow after the Cell saga to compete in the Budokai. Lets not forget Frieza, and he beyond prodigious ability to grow with very little dedication. Manga aside, Hit can increase his ability during a battle, and he's able to grow in power to further compete with Goku, and to some extent Jiren.

I think power scaling goes a little wonky at times, but I often see people confuse those moments with unexpected moments. No one knows how Potara works, or how poweful Kale's form truly is now that she's in control. Not to mention, Caulifa may be an amateurish brat with a little too much confidence, but Goku likes her because she's clearly a genius in terms of her ability to grow as a fighter and in power.

There's times I'm in the same boat as those bashing the scale, but I find myself realizing it's hard to truly define power when the only measuring sticks available are other characters who fluctuate based on a large number of reasons. There's also a big difference in dismissing power scaling because it's beyond the point of making any sense, and dismissing it because it doesn't fit into your notion on what a character should be able to achieve, especially if they're going against a fan favorite or an untouchable warrior like Goku.

Unless they spend time truly defining every forms direct affect on the character, in terms of speed, power multiplayer, disadvantages, etc., while also taking the time to make it a little clearer how stamina affects all of it given certain situations or how much of a spectrum a form offers when first achieved or when it's mastered. The real significance and difference of the various types of ki they've introduced between the God Ki, whatever the Android's use, and just plain overwhelming ki like Golden Frieza or Jiren. Overall they do a pretty good job in establishing the top dogs in a given arc, and how everything else relates during or after can often get a little confusing.

For example, I'm a huge Piccolo fan, have been since I was young, and I've had enough headaches taking what I feel is a clear visual and dialogue supported indication he's grown to a point clearly beyond SSJ2, as he proved in 88, only to have single test attacks during a 2 vs 2 spar obviously offer enough evidence to supersede the events of 2 episodes prior. Sure it seems to make little sense given what's shown, what we know from the past, what they fail to place between the lines for the fans to use as additional evidence to support his power gain. All I know is I can discuss the topic with anyone willing to question the power saling, and offer a though out, compelling argument supporting my position. In the end, I enjoy that aspect of the show as much as the actual episodes. I'd wager without the ambiguity and ability to argue form different perspectives the show wouldn't be as fun for a good portion of us.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Timetraveller » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:15 am

larzooma wrote: There's some pretty questionable examples of power scaling, but I can never understand why people choose 17. They never established the speed at which an Android can gain power, and as someone without the need to rest, eat, or build back stamina, it's possible he trained every free moment for a decade to reach his current level. Although somewhat weak and without expounding further, Dende comments he's actually had to defend the Earth on different occasions when the team was elsewhere in the Multiverse, which could have been against pretty powerful enemies.

Unlimited Stamina + Indefinable amount of time necessary to gain power + a decade of unknown and possibly intense training = a character logically capable of making pretty significant gains since his last appearance.
Which is a weak argument when most of the characters can sense characters from planets away and the Kais would always alert them to any incoming danger. There's only one of Majin Buu, Zamasu or Cell and unless 17 was fighting against universe level threats whatever training he's been doing wouldn't have amounted to what Goku and the others did. If 5 years (questionable since they've retconned this too) was enough to make 17 jump to god level than how strong does he get in 10 years? 20 years? He'd be Zeno level. That's what's wrong with this infinite potential and stamina thing they've thrown around. The scale in DBZ was pretty consistent. You have SS3>SS2>SS1>Base, Goku base is stronger than Tien base who's stronger than Roshi base and every villain is stronger than the last. With Super, everything is up for debate. Every power scaling inconsistency is explained by someone holding back when the more likely answer from the writer's view is fanservice.

If you have to forget everything you need to know about the show to enjoy something, it's not a good SEQUEL. It's Toriyama's fault for introducing transformations and it's too late to rectify things now without some wonky power scaling

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by larzooma » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:39 am

Timetraveller wrote:
larzooma wrote: There's some pretty questionable examples of power scaling, but I can never understand why people choose 17. They never established the speed at which an Android can gain power, and as someone without the need to rest, eat, or build back stamina, it's possible he trained every free moment for a decade to reach his current level. Although somewhat weak and without expounding further, Dende comments he's actually had to defend the Earth on different occasions when the team was elsewhere in the Multiverse, which could have been against pretty powerful enemies.

Unlimited Stamina + Indefinable amount of time necessary to gain power + a decade of unknown and possibly intense training = a character logically capable of making pretty significant gains since his last appearance.
Which is a weak argument when most of the characters can sense characters from planets away and the Kais would always alert them to any incoming danger. There's only one of Majin Buu, Zamasu or Cell and unless 17 was fighting against universe level threats whatever training he's been doing wouldn't have amounted to what Goku and the others did. If 5 years (questionable since they've retconned this too) was enough to make 17 jump to god level than how strong does he get in 10 years? 20 years? He'd be Zeno level. That's what's wrong with this infinite potential and stamina thing they've thrown around. The scale in DBZ was pretty consistent. You have SS3>SS2>SS1>Base, Goku base is stronger than Tien base who's stronger than Roshi base and every villain is stronger than the last. With Super, everything is up for debate. Every power scaling inconsistency is explained by someone holding back when the more likely answer from the writer's view is fanservice.

If you have to forget everything you need to know about the show to enjoy something, it's not a good SEQUEL. It's Toriyama's fault for introducing transformations and it's too late to rectify things now without some wonky power scaling

My first point would be "God" or "God level" is one of the reasons for a good portion of the confusion in DBS. As of the second arc, we were introduced to a character stronger than Goku and Vegeta using "God ki", and he was simply using a huge amount of normal ki to keep up and overtake them. After came Hit, and now the only character confirmed to be on "God level", Jiren, uses an exceptionally high level of normal ki to achieve his amazing feats. All 17 did was dedicate himself to training, and gained a substantial amount of power in the process. Not to mention, SSJB works in a different way than the cut and dry multiplier SSJ forms from DBZ. It's the reason Goku can compete with 17 at low to mid tier, but also go all out to hold his own against a mastered Golden Frieza. Forms don't work the same, and the heights warriors can reach has grown to a whole new level. You can see just by his character 17 changed as a person, and along with it, he decided to dedicate himself to become as strong as he can to protect his island. It just so happens his enhancements give him an increased speed at which he can grow, a seemingly unlimited cap, and a well established bottomless well of energy to help him train.

Take Piccolo, he had to absorb another life to gain enough of a boost to challenge Frieza on Namek, and he had to become one with his lifelong enemy to have enough power to defeat the androids and eventually Imperfect Cell. These are strange plot twists, and parts of the story I doubt anyone could predict nor would they have loved the idea when Radditz first lands. The show has come up with strange, far-fetched, and downright slaps to the progression and plot of the story simply to legitimize or raise a character.

One, they can do what they want to make the show interesting, and they do take fan commitment to certain characters into account. Two, even when they follow conventional means, it's hard to always follow the percentage gain given the type of training, the time, the motivation, the circumstance, the training partner, etc. into account whenever they decide to boost someone. Piccolo was below a four-eyed SSJ Gohan as of RoF when fighting Tagoma, and he grew enough to challenge a somewhat weakened Final Form Frost (who was stronger than FF Frieza) to victory without cheating. Pretty good gains, and even further, he grew to a point where he could with a slight power up and little effort, choke out a SSJ2 Gohan with enough power he was on the verge of going Ultimate. Now if you went back and calculated the percentage gain given his last training session in the wilderness, by himself, etc. etc. etc., then he probably grew too much. Does that really matter to that extent though? Can you rule out something new in his regimen that accounts for his growth, or an ability he discovered along the way, or a new level of mastery of his ki allowing him to improve to a new level?

It's a story with limited cut episodes, and they can only employ battles as measuring sticks to define growth. I don't know about you, but I can come up with pretty legitimate reasons for almost any character's growth outside what they may directly tell you, influenced by what I know about the character, the race, and other factors. Take into account uknowns like Android progression or the exact way in which Potara fusion works, or how powerful a controlled berserker Kale is prior to fusion, and head canon becomes a little harder, and by substitutin certain variables, can be made to come close to justifying a character's new strength.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by larzooma » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:40 am

I also think one of the purposes behind this arc was to tighten the group, and allow other characters to gain enough power they're relevant again when it comes to upcoming arcs. As much as people dislike 17's sudden jump into the upper ranks, and some people even feel Gohan grew too quickly, I don't see the story being so far fetched you couldn't believe it no matter what, and if the result is a big group of powerful fighters capable of standing side by side with Goku and Vegeta to protect Earth, U7, the Multiverse, or whatever place they find themselves in the next few arcs, I'm all for it. It's nice to see a character like Piccolo show he made pretty big strides by training, especially after Goku treating him like his only role was to dance Frost around the ring to help tire him out, so Vegeta, and eventually himself, could actually fight the warriors on the other team. Do you really like the notion the two Sayians are so far above everyone else, the rest of group is little more than a distraction at tournament events? If they keep Frieza in the mix, and continue to show the true extent of Gohan's power, then we can add 3 more fighters to the mix. If I'm correct on Piccolo's true strength, or like a lot of people argue, something he learns form the U6 Namekians gives him a decent boost, then add a 6th. Not to mention the fighters form U6 that formed an extremely close bond with the U7 team, and will most likely join them in whatever future threat awaits.

Power scaling is important, and honestly, if you overcome your unfounded bias against 17, then there hasn't been too many Frieza level jumps before or during the tournament. Even the U6 Sayians started at a base leagues and leagues and leagues above anything possible when SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, were achieved. Plus they're much more methodical than they're tailed counterparts, and Caulifa is being establisehd as the Goku of U6 with a genius like ability to learn new forms and understand abilities. All I know is Goku will still sit well above the rest. I'm hoping they throw Vegeta something to stay somewhat within contention for now, and I'd like if Frieza remained a part of the group providing another, non Saiyan with the ability to push the other two consistently to new heights. All of which will be done to the best of the writer's ability by doing as good as a job as they can comparing characters to one another while taking into account a large number of variables we all love to gather together to use as ammunition on how they don't care about power scaling.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by larzooma » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:43 am

BlueBasilisk wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:Power scaling still exists to some extent.
Nope power scaling is completely gone and since a good while lol
The problem with power scaling is that it people get caught up on how strong a character 'deserves' to be based on some arbitrary criteria instead of focusing on how strong they are relative to one another.
What are you even? Power levels are exactly power levels, a SSJ1 can't beat a SSJ3 does that makes sense to you lol that's not an arbitrary criteria that's just how things were established but Super just ignores it personally I got used to it and don't care anymore but things are what they are lol
If power scaling was gone Jiren would be fair game to anyone in that arena. Guess what? He's not. And Beerus or Whis wouldn't be untouchable.

And yes, a Super Saiyan can beat a Super Saiyan 3 if their base power was high enough. Goku as Super Saiyan right now is stronger than either he or Gotenks were as SS3 in the Buu saga. That's how it works.
It only works that way as a multiplier. Goku's base is insanely strong, so 50 times his current power is well beyond 400 times Gotenks. It's why I argue SSJ3 Goku, in terms of raw power, is probably around low to possibly low-mid SSJB given his power in base, and SSJBs working like a spectrum. It just has way too much drawbacks.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by larzooma » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:59 am

It made more sense in DBZ because the forms had set multipliers, and we really didn't have concepts like mastered form, which I guess makes it a stronger 50 or 100x. Not to mention, the characters were much closer at the time. When they all went to Namek, they were all within a certain range, and none of them were really powerful enough to take on the enemy when they first arrived. It took Vegeta gaining a Zenkai, Piccolo absorbing Nails, and Goku training in intense gravity plus getting a huge boost after being beaten within an inch of his life. Not to mention, we had very definitive Zenkais, and mergers, and the RoSaT. The forms lack clear definitions, and sometimes they seem to make little sense. We really don't know how everyone is training, other than the brief cut scene or episode. Plus, lets be fair, I may think it's justifiable 17 gained so much power, but I'm not a big fan of the character myself. I know he has a huge following though, and as much as we want to believe in some pure scale and may the best character win. Merchandise trumps all. I'm a huge Piccolo fan. Do you think I liked seeing a character he went toe to toe with in one of the best fights in all of the series surpass him as much as he did, especially given Piccolo trains as hard, if not harder, than anyone else? No, but he isn't an android and I bet 17 toys went flying off the shelf when they showed him molly-whopping Goku in SSJB over and over again. The scaling exists. It makes sense with a little head canon, and some a little leway. It's just not as cut and dry as DBZ. Piccolo merges with Kami, a Super Namekian is born, Piccolo becomes the strongest for a time. Vegeta and Trunks enter the RoSaT, they emerge with a whole new level of power, they move up to the top again, and so forth with Goku and Gohan.

Take the simplicity, spend 70+ episodes crafting the Goku and Vegeta show, only to realize maybe we need to branch out. Now instead of the handful of possible choices, now there's 12 universes of characters, with fan favorites like Hit and teenage boys favorite way to use a sock like Kale and Caulifa. Not to mention they're bringing back arch villains like Frieza, who they actually made me start to like and hope for as a regular. Now the scaling becomes more complex, the list of characters grows 10 times, and it's still all about merchandise. If you can design a perfect system, working in all scenarios, with the proper amount of consideration for the various character fanboys, all of which works neatly on a spreadsheet. Congratulations my friend.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Kanious » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:39 am

i did stop caring about power scaling back in the Buu arc. Remember Gohan getting stronger than SSJ3 Goku without training, by sitting in the front of the Elder Kai, which was farting, dancing and reading porn magazines 20 hour straight? That killed any relevance to power scaling.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:23 am

Kanious wrote:i did stop caring about power scaling back in the Buu arc. Remember Gohan getting stronger than SSJ3 Goku without training, by sitting in the front of the Elder Kai, which was farting, dancing and reading porn magazines 20 hour straight? That killed any relevance to power scaling.
This was a complex and intense ritual I had no problem with that. I stopped caring about power scaling during FTrunks arc.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:55 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Kanious wrote:i did stop caring about power scaling back in the Buu arc. Remember Gohan getting stronger than SSJ3 Goku without training, by sitting in the front of the Elder Kai, which was farting, dancing and reading porn magazines 20 hour straight? That killed any relevance to power scaling.
This was a complex and intense ritual I had no problem with that. I stopped caring about power scaling during FTrunks arc.
It was him dancing, then sitting down holding his arms up. Thats all the Elder Kai did.

All Gohan did was sit there.

Much intensity. Much complexity. :lol:

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Xeogran » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:01 am

Timetraveller wrote:So you're telling me the only thing GT had to do to please everyone was give everyone a new transformation and add in a whole bunch of fanservice? Super Saiyan 5 Pan, Master Roshi fighting Omega Shenron, Goten, Trunks and Gohan all unlock Ultra Instinct and fuse. Explains why the Dragonball Heroes thing is doing so well
Yes, because most Pan complaints I read are about her not being Super Saiyan. Such a great reasoning to hate a character...

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:37 am

JazzMazz wrote: It was him dancing, then sitting down holding his arms up. Thats all the Elder Kai did.

All Gohan did was sit there.

Much intensity. Much complexity. :lol:
It was still unbearable for him though.

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Re: Power scaling is not important anymore.

Post by Meshack » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:16 am

Faisal Shourov wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:Power scaling still exists to some extent. Characters are stronger or weajer than others. The problem with power scaling is that it people get caught up on how strong a character 'deserves' to be based on some arbitrary criteria instead of focusing on how strong they are relative to one another.
Power scaling died back in U6 arc. Now it's whoever the episode writer wants to win
The writers have no control over how strong the characters are. They do plan stuff or write minths ahead so they know what they can and cannot do.

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