Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

[Hawk9211]

Another bad thing of Super is it’s bad tendency to force tension They literally go out of their way to create scenarios where SSJ Blue Goku is struggling against characters he should even be able to oneshot in Base. All for the sake of “drama”. That’s the reason for the bad powerscaling in Super. A rational person chooses consistency over “tension” anyday! If they want to create tension and drama so bad, 1 or 2 characters at the most per arc is more than enough. Beerus, Golden Freeza, Zamasu and Black, and now Jiren. Just introduce 1 really strong character each arc and there’s tension enough! But please don’t let that interfere with the writing quality and consistency of this show. Especially not to the point where SSJ Blue Goku is struggling against characters he should be able to blow away just by sneezing!

Who has SSJB Goku actually struggled against that he supposedly defeat in his base form?

There is still needless use of blue against characters that could be defeated by weaker forms.

[Lord Beerus]

There is still needless use of blue against characters that could be defeated by weaker forms.

IDK in this arc goku only jobbed to jiren in ssjb
He was holding back against kale
Blew off nink
Took out the trio De danger in blue with ease with vegeta
One kicked ribrianne
Easily walked though kunshee webs
Dispatched maji kayo
While weaken Ssjb kept up kefla
kk nearly rekt kefla

Considering the only character(s) we know about in terms of strength from other universes, prior to the Tournament Of Power beginning (in the anime), are the Trio De Dangers, it's perfectly understandable if Goku want to use SSJB to get the job done quicker. The show provided no previous knowledge about how strong other characters are that Goku used SSJB on are.

[FoolsGil]

It is, and this battle exists because of the ultimate boneheaded move to remake the first two arcs from the movies. If Toei had just did a three episode recap and went straight into the Universe 6 tournament, then Super would have started on a high note. Even if they kept that arc exactly the same, with all its flaws, if the U7 v U6 arc was first after the recap, we would have all reacted positively. And I would apply that to the Zamasu Arc and ToP Arc. Even if everything was the same, flaws included, if U6, Zamasu, and ToP was the first, second, and third arcs and not the third, fourth, and fifth arcs, there would be no uphill battle.

But no, the powers that be decided it was fine to waste time: So after 26 episodes we go into the U6 arc with a bad mood. And because we are already in a bad mood, we are quicker to react and to rage. And then the next arc happens, rinse and repeat.

[Nickolaidas]

I guess I'm one of the few people who actually liked the fact that DBS went full-on D&D 5th Edition and lessened the gap between power levels - no scratch that, foregone power levels altogether.

Power levels were the reason my favourite characters became irrelevant (that, and Toriyama's apparent need to piss on the human Z fighters and forbid them to attain Saiyan power levels for ever).

Super made a lot of my old favourites relevant again. No seriously, you want to know why I only just recently began watching Super? Because I read somewhere that Frieza was brought back to life and would 'join' the team for some kind of tournament. That's what made me go "Man, I gotta see this!"

Then I watched the recruitment episodes and saw the match between Krillin and SSJ Goku. And I was like, "Where have you been all my life?"

I love Super for what it is. And I find the fact that there is no 'let's drag this power-up HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA moment for three episodes' a huge plus.

[snpaa]

To the answer the title of this thread, NO, super is not fighting an uphill battle it's actually just plateauing off of the back of dragonball and dragonball z , it's a financial success strictly because of the brand recognition ,some people such myself only watch it because it is dragon ball not because it's worth watching.
Now in terms of quality Yes because it's absolutely terrible, I can predict that in 2 to 3 years after super has ended , this series won't be looked at fondly in fact it will be openly mocked and trashed for what it was , " A cash grab" that's just meant to sell merchandise to the point where the super fans will feel too intimidated to go against the grain and defend the show just like Gt.

Nothing like that happened in this arc so far, you just made this up. Give an example otherwise it's invalid.

I haven't read the rest of this thread so please excuse me if this has already been addressed but didn't kale literally get a new form against the pride troopers ? Also kefla being formed was unexpected as well since it should of been illegal .

She already turned berserker a few times, now she finally transformed into a weaker SSJ form but more controlled when it was often talked about how she wasn't able to control her power every time she went berserker. It wasn't flawed at all.

At the start of the episode Caulifla said if she combines and Kale combined their strength they would be the strongest, that is foreshadowing.

Also not everything even needs to be foreshadowed as long as it makes sense and has proper explanation.
Unlike Trunks' SSJ Rage form or Caulifla's BS transformations.

I'm not sure i you're trying to move the goalpost right now, but your initial statement was nothing like that ever happened in this arc yet it did twice. First time was vs the pride troopers in her controlled state that we didn't know existed and the second example about the foreshadowing about caulifa and kefla would only be proper foreshadowing if we as a general audience thought that was something allowed in the tournament , yet we were believe that such an action would be illegal.

Like right now if goku suddenly started taking sensu beans to regain his stamina and we used the previous scenes where characters said that he had to regain his stamina that wouldn't be proper foreshadowing because it contradicts what were led to believe would be allowed because of previous scenes telling us that outside items would be illegal.

Any way my only real point I was trying to make by replying is that do you acknowledged that transformation out of nowhere to get out of a bind has happened in this arc? If you like that sort of thing that's fine if you don't that's fine too but please acknowledged that it has happened.

[Amir]

To the answer the title of this thread, NO, super is not fighting an uphill battle it's actually just plateauing off of the back of dragonball and dragonball z , it's a financial success strictly because of the brand recognition ,some people such myself only watch it because it is dragon ball not because it's worth watching.
Now in terms of quality Yes because it's absolutely terrible, I can predict that in 2 to 3 years after super has ended , this series won't be looked at fondly in fact it will be openly mocked and trashed for what it was , " A cash grab" that's just meant to sell merchandise to the point where the super fans will feel too intimidated to go against the grain and defend the show just like Gt.




I haven't read the rest of this thread so please excuse me if this has already been addressed but didn't kale literally get a new form against the pride troopers ? Also kefla being formed was unexpected as well since it should of been illegal .

She already turned berserker a few times, now she finally transformed into a weaker SSJ form but more controlled when it was often talked about how she wasn't able to control her power every time she went berserker. It wasn't flawed at all.

At the start of the episode Caulifla said if she combines and Kale combined their strength they would be the strongest, that is foreshadowing.

Also not everything even needs to be foreshadowed as long as it makes sense and has proper explanation.
Unlike Trunks' SSJ Rage form or Caulifla's BS transformations.

I'm not sure i you're trying to move the goalpost right now, but your initial statement was nothing like that ever happened in this arc yet it did twice. First time was vs the pride troopers in her controlled state that we didn't know existed and the second example about the foreshadowing about caulifa and kefla would only be proper foreshadowing if we as a general audience thought that was something allowed in the tournament , yet we were believe that such an action would be illegal.

Like right now if goku suddenly started taking sensu beans to regain his stamina and we used the previous scenes where characters said that he had to regain his stamina that wouldn't be proper foreshadowing because it contradicts what were led to believe would be allowed because of previous scenes telling us that outside items would be illegal.

Any way my only real point I was trying to make by replying is that do you acknowledged that transformation out of nowhere to get out of a bind has happened in this arc? If you like that sort of thing that's fine if you don't that's fine too but please acknowledged that it has happened.

Transformations outta nowhere is not what happened with Kale's SSJ form becauae it still makes sense. A good example would be Trunks' SSJ Rage transformation - this has not happened.

[MKCSTEALTH]

Super has kept me interested, mainly through it's plot points rather than an overall story. During the Black arc, I was hooked as to what Black's real identity was, I was curious just how they were going to defeat the immortal Zamasu. For this arc, I'm still hooked. Why have they brought back Frieza? How are they going to beat Jiren? Who will get the wish? Will they bring back the destroyed universes?

As for overall story, to me the biggest thing holding me back from being truly gripped with the story has been lack of tension, due to the fact this is all taking place before Goku meets Uub. And since that event is still going to happen, I'm not really too concerned that U7 might lose. It's artificial tension. I think realistically, the U6 tournament and Future Trunks arcs fit well into the timeline. But the ToP should have been for after the end of Z. Then there would be a more realistic sense of tension, at least to me.

[dbs fanboy]

For me, as of now (well, pretty much since the U6 arc), super is completely fine, and improving over time. I accept and like the series for what it is and not for what i want it to be (thought of course if it gets terrible, like RoF levels of bad, i would dislike it), and i love how (slowly) it's improving over time, so i can get my expectations blown up multiple times.

I still remember how after ep 39 ended i thought, "this is it, this is super's best, i can't see it topping this" and then Goku Black happened and then Freeza second coming (in super) happened, and then ULTRA INSTINCT HAPPENED.

And still, i don't know if the general consensus is "meh super sucks", thought i have seen plenty of people stating this, i see others doing the opposite (hell, the "super's hate" thing has become even a meme by now).
It's just the internet blowing things out of proportions, just like with GT. Before beginning to use even a computer, GT was the coolest thing ever, i knew a lot of people talking about it (positively) and i also did the same with a lot of friends, and then i met the "online fandom" and everything was (apparently) fucking garbage.

Hell, i've seen plenty of people even stating that db is garbage and things only got good in Z.

[Faisal Shourov]

Super has kept me interested, mainly through it's plot points rather than an overall story. During the Black arc, I was hooked as to what Black's real identity was, I was curious just how they were going to defeat the immortal Zamasu. For this arc, I'm still hooked. Why have they brought back Frieza? How are they going to beat Jiren? Who will get the wish? Will they bring back the destroyed universes?

As for overall story, to me the biggest thing holding me back from being truly gripped with the story has been lack of tension, due to the fact this is all taking place before Goku meets Uub. And since that event is still going to happen, I'm not really too concerned that U7 might lose. It's artificial tension. I think realistically, the U6 tournament and Future Trunks arcs fit well into the timeline. But the ToP should have been for after the end of Z. Then there would be a more realistic sense of tension, at least to me.

The fake tension destroys any build up even before it's created. Even if Zeno erases U7 we know it will return one way or another.

[majinwarman]

For me, as of now (well, pretty much since the U6 arc), super is completely fine, and improving over time. I accept and like the series for what it is and not for what i want it to be (thought of course if it gets terrible, like RoF levels of bad, i would dislike it), and i love how (slowly) it's improving over time, so i can get my expectations blown up multiple times.

I still remember how after ep 39 ended i thought, "this is it, this is super's best, i can't see it topping this" and then Goku Black happened and then Freeza second coming (in super) happened, and then ULTRA INSTINCT HAPPENED.

And still, i don't know if the general consensus is "meh super sucks", thought i have seen plenty of people stating this, i see others doing the opposite (hell, the "super's hate" thing has become even a meme by now).
It's just the internet blowing things out of proportions, just like with GT. Before beginning to use even a computer, GT was the coolest thing ever, i knew a lot of people talking about it (positively) and i also did the same with a lot of friends, and then i met the "online fandom" and everything was (apparently) fucking garbage.

Hell, i've seen plenty of people even stating that db is garbage and things only got good in Z.

I have to agree with you. Super isn't the best show, it's better than people give it credit for. I still like Dragon ball and Z more but it still a great show in my opinion.

[majinwarman]

There is still needless use of blue against characters that could be defeated by weaker forms.

IDK in this arc goku only jobbed to jiren in ssjb
He was holding back against kale
Blew off nink
Took out the trio De danger in blue with ease with vegeta
One kicked ribrianne
Easily walked though kunshee webs
Dispatched maji kayo
While weaken Ssjb kept up kefla
kk nearly rekt kefla

Considering the only character(s) we know about in terms of strength from other universes, prior to the Tournament Of Power beginning (in the anime), are the Trio De Dangers, it's perfectly understandable if Goku want to use SSJB to get the job done quicker. The show provided no previous knowledge about how strong other characters are that Goku used SSJB on are.

That is a good point but I don't think Goku wastes SSJB that much.

[snpaa]

Transformations outta nowhere is not what happened with Kale's SSJ form becauae it still makes sense. A good example would be Trunks' SSJ Rage transformation - this has not happened.

Even if you believe it made sense it was still a transformation that came out of nowhere to help her beat her opponents in this arc. Their is no debate on this unless you have evidence to show me that it was heavily foreshadowed outside the episode it appeared in, if so feel free to do so now. Realistically I could of overlooked something , so if you know something I don't know then show me and I'll admit I was wrong .

[Amir]

Transformations outta nowhere is not what happened with Kale's SSJ form becauae it still makes sense. A good example would be Trunks' SSJ Rage transformation - this has not happened.

Even if you believe it made sense it was still a transformation that came out of nowhere to help her beat her opponents in this arc. Their is no debate on this unless you have evidence to show me that it was heavily foreshadowed outside the episode it appeared in, if so feel free to do so now. Realistically I could of overlooked something , so if you know something I don't know then show me and I'll admit I was wrong .

I admit it wasn't forshadowed too well, but like I said, it is no a flaw because not everything has to have forshadowing as long as it makes sense.

[BWri]

What Super does the best, in terms of all series, even Z, is building incredible amounts of hype and creating these OMG spectacle moments that have to be seen. The slice of life stuff has also been a highlight since the start of the show. Toei's writers handle the characters brilliantly in those episodes. The problem here is a lack of focus and a case of too many cooks in the kitchen and I'll explain why.

Originally DB had a manga which was written by Akira Toriyama with some major inputs/suggestions from his 3 longtime editors. IMO, it seems like Toriyama's editors guided his unbound genius and creativity in a certain direction. They had their fingers on the pulse of what was popular so to speak and there's a lot of evidence that they're partly responsible for some of the series most popular characters such as King Piccolo, Frieza, and Buu who Toriyama joked he based off of his three editors. There's also the fact that the Android arc was set to have Android 19 and 20 as the main antagonists, but due to 2 interventions of Toriyama's editor (you can look up the interview on this very site) the main antagonists were changed to 17, 18, and 16, and finally to Cell. Even way back in DB, it took an editors suggestion to change the format of the show from a comedy/adventure to an action based show and that's what led DB to the tremendous popularity it's enjoyed ever since. So as you can see, Toriyama's genius was formerly guided in directions that elevated the show possibly behind what he was capable of on his own. I think that's the start of it.

Next you have the fact the DB and DBZ animes initially closely followed the manga with various fillers to fill out the story and pad for time. With that guideline, a certain level of consistency was guaranteed. They had to follow the manga which was a consistent story thanks to Toriyama and his editors' weekly efforts. Now though, Super just has some rough notes, even less than the outline we fans initially thought he was drafting for them. So for the anime and it's TEAM of writers, consistency will always be an issue because different people with different understandings of the show all have different ideas of how to interpret certain things or what deserves focus. Super's anime is much more OMGHYPE than manga, but its also much less consistent, a happy medium would be nice with the team following Toyotaro's manga and adding to it with more HYPE!

And finally, I believe the series has gotten so complex that Shueisha and Toei need a continuity checker, someone to keep all the concepts and lore in the series in tact.

Beyond that, DB has one of the most recognizable and beloved casts in all of fiction, certainly all of anime and so Toriyama needs to recognize the popularity of his cast and stop shitting on them at every turn. They also need to dive into lore that's already there. Take a microscope to the series and mine it for all its worth. Tien's ancestry, the Makioshin, Frieza's empire, U6, Namekian book of legends, Ginga Patrol, and that's just a starting point.

But overall, Super is fine at the moment. It brings in new fans, makes the series tons of money, has some truly great moments, and is a good Dragon Ball placebo, even if it annoys the hell out of me sometimes. Admittedly, it has overall taken the series down IMO. The entire series is no longer in my top 10 whereas before it was certainly top 5 (I never counted GT because I haven't watched the entire series and it felt "noncanon"). But the franchise is in a good place. I don't think it'll get any better than this until Shuiesha and Toei does a new series with new characters, like a true future generation and finally let Goku have a rest. But I can say that the series is much improved from those initial 40 something episodes.

Honestly I’ve taken a step back to look at the grand picture of how Super is viewed by both casual and hardcore fans and... I gotta say it’s not looking good even with the current arc, it seems that no matter what Super does or how well it’s pulled off it feels like people’s standards are too high nowadays for it to be viewed as genuinely good, don’t get me wrong I know Super is flawed, but especially after the Black arc plenty of people have just seemed to give up on the series or go the alternative “turn your brain off” route... it gets kinda depressing once you think about it.

So what would it take?

What level of quality all-around would it take for Super to TRULY win the crowd back? Because at this point It’d have to have at LEAST 2-3 arcs of some of if not the best Shounen Arcs of all time with beautiful animation, masterfully choreographed fights, compelling narratives, etc. and generate hype even BIGGER than the Black Arc did with ZERO slip-ups...

I dunno maybe it’s just from all the bad news and negativity towards the arc that’s been going around that’s been depressing me regarding the show...

[BWri]

Super is definitely fighting an uphill battle. I feel Super has done some really good stuff, and of course some not-so-good stuff, but unfortunately Super will always be compared to the work or art that was Dragon Ball and DBZ, and whilst it will have its good point, it just won't ever be as good. Someone said "damned if you do, damned if you don't" earlier on in the thread - that pretty much nailed it for me.

A bit of a side point really, but one thing that still pains me, even though it had already happened towards the latter stages of Z, is the "dissolving" of the "original fighting cast". I remember after Goku's fight with Piccolo Jr, Master Roshi gave this great speech to Kami about "these eight kids", referring to Goku, Bulma, Yamcha, Krillin, Launch, Tien, Chiaotzu and Yajirobe. I am probably alone here (probably stemming from wishful thinking on my part!), but this always gave me the feeling that the "main fighting cast" was going to be Goku, Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Chiaotzu and, to a lesser extent, Yajirobe, the Z-Fighters (perhaps used in a way not too dissimilar to the Straw Hat Pirates?). Throw in Piccolo Jr. joining later on as well, with cameos from Master Roshi and others (Android 8, Bora, Upa, etc) and I think I'd have been set for life with that group. Unfortunately, as we all know, DBZ became the "Goku 'n' his Saiyan Friends" show, and the other characters became less prominent.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Vegeta (I find I appreciate him a lot more now than I did when I was a child), Gohan has had some enjoyable moments, and I'm a big fan of Android 17 and 18, but they'll never replace the original Z Fighter "feel" for me, and that will always be a big issue. The enemies keep getting insanely strong and they keep introducing new forms, and I'll struggle to maintain an interest. The Tournament of Power was a nice idea, getting the likes of Krillin, Tien and Roshi involved again, but meh...

Yeah ... *sigh* *quiet tears*

[Olympian]

You`re not alone, man. You`re not alone.

*Pat in the back*

[snpaa]

Transformations outta nowhere is not what happened with Kale's SSJ form becauae it still makes sense. A good example would be Trunks' SSJ Rage transformation - this has not happened.

Even if you believe it made sense it was still a transformation that came out of nowhere to help her beat her opponents in this arc. Their is no debate on this unless you have evidence to show me that it was heavily foreshadowed outside the episode it appeared in, if so feel free to do so now. Realistically I could of overlooked something , so if you know something I don't know then show me and I'll admit I was wrong .

I admit it wasn't forshadowed too well, but like I said, it is no a flaw because not everything has to have forshadowing as long as it makes sense.

I can see now that you're going to continue to move the goalpost so I'll be direct as possible and make this my last reply to save us both some time of the needless back and forth .

If the transformation was not foreshadowed , mentioned in series before, or ever seen before then that means it came out of nowhere. Yes it's not a an inherently bad thing (and I didn't say it was) but that is not the issue , your initial statement was

nothing like that happened in this arc so far, you just made this up. Give an example otherwise it's invalid.".

I responded to this one section , of your entire post because it seemed easily refutable to me and I had evidence to prove it that you may overlooked. I don't have a stake in this discussion on whether if it's good or bad , my only objective is whether you acknowledged that it has happened in this arc.

Transformations out of nowhere did it happen in this arc yes or no?

[Amir]

Even if you believe it made sense it was still a transformation that came out of nowhere to help her beat her opponents in this arc. Their is no debate on this unless you have evidence to show me that it was heavily foreshadowed outside the episode it appeared in, if so feel free to do so now. Realistically I could of overlooked something , so if you know something I don't know then show me and I'll admit I was wrong .

I admit it wasn't forshadowed too well, but like I said, it is no a flaw because not everything has to have forshadowing as long as it makes sense.

I can see now that you're going to continue to move the goalpost so I'll be direct as possible and make this my last reply to save us both some time of the needless back and forth .

If the transformation was not foreshadowed , mentioned in series before, or ever seen before then that means it came out of nowhere. Yes it's not a an inherently bad thing (and I didn't say it was) but that is not the issue , your initial statement was

nothing like that happened in this arc so far, you just made this up. Give an example otherwise it's invalid.".

I responded to this one section , of your entire post because it seemed easily refutable to me and I had evidence to prove it that you may overlooked. I don't have a stake in this discussion on whether if it's good or bad , my only objective is whether you acknowledged that it has happened in this arc.

Transformations out of nowhere did it happen in this arc yes or no?

So that's what you were arguing about. So yeah I was wrong when I said nothing like that happened. I take it you already got my point.

[FubukiFoxx]

They really need to just take their time in planning out arcs and really think about things like continuity, character development, and, of course, power scaling. That said, I don't want for characters to fall behind and then have no hope of catching back up (ala most of the human characters in Z), but it's very hard to gauge how powerful a character is without efficient scaling.
Likewise, the series is very much taking a vertical scaling as opposed to implementing a horizontal one (in terms of power scaling); it sort of writes them into a corner eventually, because there's only so high up you can go. This also introduces the problem of fights losing any of the strategy they once had in something like Dragon Ball, and it all just becomes about who can punch the hardest. I'd be interested to see weaker characters still be able to pull their weight by applying efficient strategy and tactics in fights. Heck, there could even be a baddie who forces Goku to think for a change (something I haven't, admittedly, really seen him do in Super).
There's also no real teamwork a lot of the time (bar some obvious exceptions like Kale and Caulifla, and the Androids), which is an issue when you set up your arc to be all about that. Saying that teamwork in this tournament is important would become irrelevant because almost all matches are 1v1s and skirmishes anyway.

I will say that there are some episodes where the animations are quite impressive, but the fight choreography is usually lacking compared to DB/Z anyway, which holds the series back.

This is just a quick critic, but there's definitely a lot of issues plaguing the series, which unfortunately pull down the numerous good traits it has (for example, I love the whole set up of the G.O.Ds, and we've had some interesting characters introduced with a lot of potential, if they are handled right).