If Android 18's beat-down of Vegeta happened today.

[TekTheNinja]

In this situation they would also complain about 17.

That's true. Some people just want to oversimplify things by making the female saiyans' detractors out to be sexist. Truth is, if Caulifla and Kale were men then not only would I still hate them, but they probably wouldn't be nearly as popular.

[Kanassa]

In this situation they would also complain about 17.

That's true. Some people just want to oversimplify things by making the female saiyans' detractors out to be sexist. Truth is, if Caulifla and Kale were men then not only would I still hate them, but they probably wouldn't be nearly as popular.

They'd certainly have less fan art. And really, isn't fap material true popularity?

[TheMikado]

In this situation they would also complain about 17.

That's true. Some people just want to oversimplify things by making the female saiyans' detractors out to be sexist. Truth is, if Caulifla and Kale were men then not only would I still hate them, but they probably wouldn't be nearly as popular.

They'd certainly have less fan art. And really, isn't fap material true popularity?

Have you seen the Broly/Kale art.....

[Kanassa]

That's true. Some people just want to oversimplify things by making the female saiyans' detractors out to be sexist. Truth is, if Caulifla and Kale were men then not only would I still hate them, but they probably wouldn't be nearly as popular.

They'd certainly have less fan art. And really, isn't fap material true popularity?

Have you seen the Broly/Kale art.....

I have seen the Kale art ;D

I don't see enough Broly art, though I'm not much of a fan of Broly's design in anything, too much muscle mass to not be an eyesore.

[TheMikado]

They'd certainly have less fan art. And really, isn't fap material true popularity?

Have you seen the Broly/Kale art.....

I have seen the Kale art ;D

I don't see enough Broly art, though I'm not much of a fan of Broly's design in anything, too much muscle mass to not be an eyesore.

I meant the two together.
This is a tame one obviously. I don't see why the muscles on Kale would be any less of an eyesore?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Rebel Instinct]

I gotta say, you sound so cool, calm and make some great posts and points. Its unbelievable that you joined so recently and made so few posts. I would like to see more of you!

Seconded. Rebel's posts I am usually in agreement with, so that helps too. Heheh. He's often like a less loud and angry version of me. XD

Aww shucks, you guys! I really appreciate the compliments!

I've always been a firm believer in the idea that people are more willing to hear out what you have to say if you're calm and respectful when offering your opinion. I don't ever want to insult someone or belittle their feelings if I can avoid it. I've been on the receiving end of stuff like that plenty of times elsewhere before and it sucks hardcore. Most of the stuff I post about are things that I've had cooking in the ol' brainpan for a long time and hadn't really had anywhere to vent. I'm just glad that people get something out of what I have to say.

[MR.Mark]

I don't understand this thread. No.17 & 18 were foreshadowed LONG before we finally got to see a fight between 18 and Vegeta, and by foreshadowed I mean they literally brought upon the end of the world while easily disposing the majority of the main cast. I think the OP is trying to level the playing field against criticisms against Super's really, really shitty writing?

Pretty much. Comparing two cellularlly modified beings hyped up for multiple chapters aren't really comparable to a race we already know about that reached ssj with a tingle in their back, and Caulifla getting ssj2 the same day. And Kale randomly being some buff ssj who is above Z ssj3 level. I mean I would have no problem if they were just presented as battle harden warriors who have been training their whole life and also happen to be prodigies that were ssj already. Caulfilfa could of had ssj mastered for years and then she could of unlocked ssj3 in the ToP. I guess Kale ccould keep her berserker form, just leave out the scene of her walking through a SSB kamehameha.

So did Goten and Trunks train since they were babies to earn being SSJ in the Buu arc? For that matter is a 4 year old Gohan getting mad enough to temporarily be strong enough to damage Raditz earning his power?

Califlya is talented and was an established fighter when we meet her and she had been training Kale, seems fair enough to me.

[supersaiyanZero]

I don't understand this thread. No.17 & 18 were foreshadowed LONG before we finally got to see a fight between 18 and Vegeta, and by foreshadowed I mean they literally brought upon the end of the world while easily disposing the majority of the main cast. I think the OP is trying to level the playing field against criticisms against Super's really, really shitty writing?

Pretty much. Comparing two cellularlly modified beings hyped up for multiple chapters aren't really comparable to a race we already know about that reached ssj with a tingle in their back, and Caulifla getting ssj2 the same day. And Kale randomly being some buff ssj who is above Z ssj3 level. I mean I would have no problem if they were just presented as battle harden warriors who have been training their whole life and also happen to be prodigies that were ssj already. Caulfilfa could of had ssj mastered for years and then she could of unlocked ssj3 in the ToP. I guess Kale ccould keep her berserker form, just leave out the scene of her walking through a SSB kamehameha.

So did Goten and Trunks train since they were babies to earn being SSJ in the Buu arc? For that matter is a 4 year old Gohan getting mad enough to temporarily be strong enough to damage Raditz earning his power?

Califlya is talented and was an established fighter when we meet her and she had been training Kale, seems fair enough to me.

What are you even debating? Gohan's anger power-ups were a central theme in his character development which was expanded on as the series went on. (The series itself had a bunch of examples where fighters would get angry and get a temporary boost in strength) It was a character trait that wasn't discarded later on.

Goten and Trunks, you do have an argument there. And for the record, it's the same argument people had for NOT liking Goten and Trunks, as well as not liking the direction the Buu arc headed towards in regards to fan service. But they had personality, and so did Gotenks, so the criticism wasn't as strong. There was also a build up to Gotenks being the "savior of the universe" for a few episodes, whereas the 2 saiyan girls in the tournament were just thrown in there so their toys would sell. They got ridiculous powerups, reused a movie concept (while DIRECTLY stealing scenes from the movie and on top of that, poorly animating them), a few lines of forced dialogue here and there to try and establish some sort of paper thin relationship, and all of it didn't do a damn thing for the story. They are so forgettable it hurts.

[MR.Mark]

Kale's power and character is like a Lunch on steroids, Califya is like a more lively version of 18 and abit of early Videl. So far they don't offend me and I'm interested where they go from TOP.

[dragon boss z]

So did Goten and Trunks train since they were babies to earn being SSJ in the Buu arc? For that matter is a 4 year old Gohan getting mad enough to temporarily be strong enough to damage Raditz earning his power?

Califlya is talented and was an established fighter when we meet her and she had been training Kale, seems fair enough to me.

Ok let me break this down for you. Goten and Trunks were able to attain ssj easily, yes. And I do think that is stupid as well. However the difference between them and Caulifla is
1. they are weak
2. they attained ssj by accident while Caulifla still didn't even know about it yet

If Caulifla was a prodigy or if she was an established fighter (which she wasn't and they even said she didn't know any martial arts in the ToP when fighting Goku) she should of already learned ssj by accident just like Goten and Trunks did.

And about Gohan, the rage boosts were an asspull, but they clearly had a limit. He damaged Raditz, a low tier fighter, not that special. It only seemed special at the time because he was the strongest character introduced. Guess what happens when Gohan fought someone considered storng in the universe like Recoome? Broken neck. What about against Frieza? He could do nothing but buy time. but now Caulifla is able to fight Goku, who has gone through god training? If this was Buu saga Goku it would of made sense. Goku still would of trained way more than her, but he would still be int he mortal realm so her being a prodigy would make it believable on how she was at his level, but Goku got a god form, got a power up from it, then trained for years with Whis and someone who just learned ssj is competing with him? It's dumb no matter how you look at it. Especially since base Goku is supposed to be stronger than ssj3 Gotenks, though it seems they ignore that sometimes.

Kale's power and character is like a Lunch on steroids, Califya is like a more lively version of 18 and abit of early Videl. So far they don't offend me and I'm interested where they go from TOP.

They don't insult me either, it is just dumb that they are that strong. Though I have them weaker than most people. I think ssj2 Caulifla is high buu saga tier and Kale is like Z ssj Vegeito tier.

[MR.Mark]

Thanks for breaking it down, now alow me to elaborate.

What difference does it make how "weak Goten and Trunks were? They are still ridiculously strong as was there fusion at the time, because the plot demanded it.

When Raditz showed up he was way stronger than Goku and we just rolled with it because we were told "he's a Saiyan, and Saiyans are strong" Just like Freeza is strong because he's an evil emperor, Cell is strong cuz science, Buu is just magic, and so on.

The universe 6 Saiyans evolved differently from Universe 7. More over Goku fought the girls while he was very low on stamina, good enough for me.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Thanks for breaking it down, now alow me to elaborate.

What difference does it make how "weak Goten and Trunks were? They are still ridiculously strong as was there fusion at the time, because the plot demanded it.

When Raditz showed up he was way stronger than Goku and we just rolled with it because we were told "he's a Saiyan, and Saiyans are strong" Just like Freeza is strong because he's an evil emperor, Cell is strong cuz science, Buu is just magic, and so on.

The universe 6 Saiyans evolved differently from Universe 7. More over Goku fought the girls while he was very low on stamina, good enough for me.

It was believable with Radditz because Gokus power wasn't so inflated. It's believable an alien stronger than the Earths best martial artist could exist when his power isn't that incredible yet compared to a lot of hero's.

When you're God tier it makes it a lot less believable.

[MR.Mark]

To each is own, Roshi trained his whole life and suddenly this monkey boy surpasses him in afew years?

Dragon Ball always had over the top escalation in power.