Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:15 pm

There's been a few people who don't like the one of the angles of the Tournament Of Power since Episode 111, in that Goku seemingly being always low on energy and trying the recover his stamina. Now I've had a bit of issue with this myself, but after re-watching large chunks Super (Yeah, I do that often) I'm probably the only person on the forum who's going to say this but... I really like that angle. But only for one reason: it epitomises Goku's character of being a martial artists who performs far beyond his threshold through sheer willpower and is rewarded greatly for the risks he takes.

If there's one thing Super highlights throughout the show is that Goku is man that really has no limits who put himself in certain situations to challenge himself physically and mentally. In the Battle Of Gods arc, even though the Super Saiyan God form expired, his body learned from the experience was able to retain the power of Super Saiyan God for at least until the climax of his battle against Beerus.

In the Champa arc, Goku does the impossible and combines Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken to push his bodies potential through many glass ceilings, even though there was high chance he could cripple himself or die from doing that. Hell, even when he didn't miraculously kill himself from performing that combination technique, the aftereffects from that stunt were very much apparent. Hell, there was a whole episode dedicated to how much Goku's body became fucked up because of that Super Saiyan Blue/Kaioken scenario. But Goku's body eventually adapted to the circumstances though rigorous training from the conclusion of the Champa arc and beyond, accumulated with him now being able to stack Kaioken, twenty times fold no less, on top of Super Saiyan Blue with zero repercussions.

In the Future Trunks arc, we see Goku in two separate instances, one through rage (Episode 61) and other through sheer willpower (Episode 66), tap into energy I'm not sure even he was aware that he could tap into when powered up even further as a Super Saiyan Blue. And in the later example, Goku overclocked the amount of energy he expended in his beam clash against Merged Zamasu to such a degree he broke both of his arms.

After the Future Trunks arc, Goku hires Hit to try and assassinate him. Why? Purely because Goku wanted to challenge himself, regardless of the risks. And while Goku is fortunate that he was brought back the life, from the experience of his second skirmish with Hit, Goku was able to improve himself and could handle Hit's Timeskip abilities much better the third time around.

And it all comes together with how Goku obtains Ultra Instinct. Goku fought against the very power he collected from his allies in an attempt to defeat Jiren, and in the process of the clash between his own power and the power of the Genki Dama, reached a new plateau of strength. It's a magnificent evolution of the subtle context for which Goku approaches strength and attaining new forms. Goku used his own power to prevent himself from being consumed by the energy of the Genki Dama when it collapsed in on itself and exploded, and in the process, broke through his "shell", his utmost limits to be exact, to his deeper potential and allowed he to gain access to Ultra Instinct.

Goku has always been a character who has preferred to take the most unorthodox and unexpected methods of breaking through thresholds to obtain new realms in power and improve himself. Elder Kaioshin makes the comment that sums it up effectively for me when he says, "It looks like he's purposely fighting without risk to challenge his own limits." The context of that statement wonderfully harkens back to the context of how Goku obtain Ultra Instinct.

Whis even make the further statement in how repeated exposure to extreme conditions can lead to acclimation. Goku is getting so much more used fighting with not much in tank as he had hope for, that his recovery time has accelerated. It's another example of how Goku put himself in a very dangerous position to see how his body reacts and whether he can learn from the scenario and improve himself, either in the midst of battle or after it.

Goku is a freak of nature. He's martial artists to his core. Any opportunity, regards of nonsensical the context may be, is seen as an avenue for Goku to improve capability. Goku seeks for any opportunity to challenge himself, and because of his unbelievable desire and incredible raw willpower, a trait of Goku's since the beginning of Dragon Ball, Goku has continuously been able to reach new heights of power, and he's constantly able to break through any glass ceilings of strength and can outperform himself constantly, even in midst of extreme conditions in battle. Goku's personal drive towards challenging himself is truly unlike any other character in Dragon Ball and Super emphasizes to heightened degrees repeatedly. Krillin comments, with regard to the context of his battles with Caulifla and Kale in Episode 113, about how Goku always pushes himself to the edge to further himself epitomise Goku's attitude.

There's a motto that the SAS have and I think it sufficiently sums up what Goku's personality towards improving himself: Who Dares, Wins.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:33 pm

Even though the reasons why Goku can fight make some sense, we all know the reasons exist just so Goku can appear in the majority of the fights.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:17 pm

This is probably why Goku is so popular with the core Japanese audience (from what I've seen and interpreted, I could be wrong).

He epitomizes the two extremes that they hold so dearly in real life and in fiction: hard work and pure fun.

He's childish, naive, and pretty thickheaded with regards to even simple social matters, but this means he's carefree and fun-loving and is a perfect match for the ideal of going on wacky adventures and just having fun in general.

But he's also driven, motivated, and constantly pushes himself when it comes to martial arts, fighting, and improving himself, representing the intensely hard work the Japanese people as a whole constantly maintain as their creed in their daily lives.

He's literally the ideal Japanese role model, in a sense. A person that strives to better himself in every aspect pertaining to his "line of work", but also one that doesn't let life's struggles keep him or his spirits down from enjoying the most out of what life has to offer. It's sorta surreal analyzing and dissecting it this way, since this kind of dichotomy isn't often thought of in Western cultural mentalities.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by emperior » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:37 pm

Great post, I too like the direction they are taking with Goku in this arc, and in Super in general. Considering Goku has surpassed every unimaginable limit, it's great to see he's trying to surpass another limit of his - stamina. Which is probably why the Androids have been brought back and why they are making such an emphasis on their unlimited stamina, it's really an awesome tool to have in battle! I also believe a mastered Ultra Instinct is the pinnacle of low energy consumption, as if the body moves on its own it should theoretically move in the best possible way to ensure the lowest consumption of energy. Which is why Goku getting used to being out of stamina may be a way for him to master Ultra Instinct, or gain it back.
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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by Asura » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:17 pm

I was writing up a whole long post for this thread about why none of this shit makes any sense and it's absolutely infuriating to see TOEI pull so many ass pulls time after time again, but honestly I give up. TOEI is god awful at explaining things and that's just the way things are always going to be. None of their logic makes any sense and that's just how it's always going to be too. I'm just going to accept it and stop questioning it. Losing all your energy makes you gain all your energy, Goku is now a walking senzu bean, the best way to show that Goku has no stamina is to show him going full power with Kaioken on top of it every time, showing Goku stumbling to even stand straight means he can go SSB Kaioken in a minute afterwards while still fighting, and somehow all of this makes perfect sense because Whis says so. The sky is blue but Whis could put on a whole long explanation about how it's red and I'm sure someone here would nod their head in agreement that it is indeed red (Goku is exhausted and out of energy) despite looking straight at the blue sky on the screen (Goku is clearly not out of energy at all), because Whis is telling you it's red. Plus it's just not worth the effort to argue with the plethora of excuses and faulty reasoning that people will put out as a result of me disagreeing with their writing decisions.

All I'll say is this. The concept of Goku breaking through his limit to obtain new power he didn't know he had is a good one. The execution of Goku magically regaining all of his energy and stamina whenever he wants despite it being hammered into our head every single episode that he's all out of fuel is not such a great execution. It didn't make the greatest of sense with Goku somehow regaining his energy while fighting Caulifla, but she's weaker than him so OK, sure, I can accept that. Plus his fight with Caulifla and Kale, leading up to Kefla with him slowly going from base, to SSJ2, to SSJ3, to SSG to SSB/SSBK makes sense in showing us that he is very slowly gaining his energy and power back, and is forced to use as much as he can of it which causes him to break past his limits. OK, sure this makes sense. What does not make sense is Goku now immediately going into SSB whenever he wants despite having no energy or stamina, or being given ample time to slowly gather up his energy like he did against Caulifla and Kale.

If Goku was a battery, and lets say he started at 10% charge against Caulifla and Kale, we can see that battery slowly charging as he gets back into the swing of things. 10%, 15%, 25%, 40%, 60%... etc.

If Goku was a battery in this episode, and lets say he started at 10% charge, suddenly he can now go to 100% in an instant. It makes for a pretty great phone battery, but a pretty shitty explanation as to how Goku is supposedly exhausted, and a pretty unbelievable explanation as to how Goku is breaking his limits. If your limit is 100%, you need to be going above 100% to break that limit. It's pretty unbelievable to me that Goku can go from 10% to over 100% in the blink of an eye. How about showing us him slowly getting a lot closer to that 100% number like we saw with him against Caulifla/Kale/Kefla before breaking his limit instead of the magic ass pull he did in this episode? We've seen time and time again in both Z and Super what happens when Goku is exhausted or loses his stamina. He can't transform. Couldn't do it against Kid Buu, couldn't do it against Zamasu, hell he couldn't even do it against Caulifla at first, he had to slowly ramp up the transformations. None of that logic was applied to this episode, and Super's writing is always at its worst when it tries to deviate from consistency and logic.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:30 pm

I like the theory but I'll just chalk it up to the actual thing as Super doing random bullshit again and expecting people to rationalize it.

Oh and you can't convince Goku's imminent mastery of UI within the span of five minutes isn't gonna be stupid, I don't care how many "Goku's got moxy!" things people throw out, this ENTIRE character evolution is something you do over a longer stretch of in-universe time, not minutes apart.
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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:35 pm

I'm certain the manga will explain all of this much better than the anime.

This reminds me of the Future Trunks arc, when people were complaining about Goku Black's 'stupid' and 'absurd' power-ups. The manga explained Black's power-ups much better by revealing that he initially had a lot of problem tapping into Goku's Super Saiyan potential, but let Future Zamasu always heal his critical injuries to receive the effects of the Zenkai Boosts.

I know -some- of people don't like the handling of Goku and Ultra Instinct in these last few episodes, but hopefully the manga will give us a convincing and logical reason behind this. The anime, so far, hasn't.
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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by Khandom101 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:02 am

Lord Beerus wrote:There's been a few people who don't like the one of the angles of the Tournament Of Power since Episode 111, in that Goku seemingly being always low on energy and trying the recover his stamina. Now I've had a bit of issue with this myself, but after re-watching large chunks Super (Yeah, I do that often) I'm probably the only person on the forum who's going to say this but... I really like that angle. But only for one reason: it epitomises Goku's character of being a martial artists who performs far beyond his threshold through sheer willpower and is rewarded greatly for the risks he takes.

If there's one thing Super highlights throughout the show is that Goku is man that really has no limits who put himself in certain situations to challenge himself physically and mentally. In the Battle Of Gods arc, even though the Super Saiyan God form expired, his body learned from the experience was able to retain the power of Super Saiyan God for at least until the climax of his battle against Beerus.

In the Champa arc, Goku does the impossible and combines Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken to push his bodies potential through many glass ceilings, even though there was high chance he could cripple himself or die from doing that. Hell, even when he didn't miraculously kill himself from performing that combination technique, the aftereffects from that stunt were very much apparent. Hell, there was a whole episode dedicated to how much Goku's body became fucked up because of that Super Saiyan Blue/Kaioken scenario. But Goku's body eventually adapted to the circumstances though rigorous training from the conclusion of the Champa arc and beyond, accumulated with him now being able to stack Kaioken, twenty times fold no less, on top of Super Saiyan Blue with zero repercussions.

In the Future Trunks arc, we see Goku in two separate instances, one through rage (Episode 61) and other through sheer willpower (Episode 66), tap into energy I'm not sure even he was aware that he could tap into when powered up even further as a Super Saiyan Blue. And in the later example, Goku overclocked the amount of energy he expended in his beam clash against Merged Zamasu to such a degree he broke both of his arms.

After the Future Trunks arc, Goku hires Hit to try and assassinate him. Why? Purely because Goku wanted to challenge himself, regardless of the risks. And while Goku is fortunate that he was brought back the life, from the experience of his second skirmish with Hit, Goku was able to improve himself and could handle Hit's Timeskip abilities much better the third time around.

And it all comes together with how Goku obtains Ultra Instinct. Goku fought against the very power he collected from his allies in an attempt to defeat Jiren, and in the process of the clash between his own power and the power of the Genki Dama, reached a new plateau of strength. It's a magnificent evolution of the subtle context for which Goku approaches strength and attaining new forms. Goku used his own power to prevent himself from being consumed by the energy of the Genki Dama when it collapsed in on itself and exploded, and in the process, broke through his "shell", his utmost limits to be exact, to his deeper potential and allowed he to gain access to Ultra Instinct.

Goku has always been a character who has preferred to take the most unorthodox and unexpected methods of breaking through thresholds to obtain new realms in power and improve himself. Elder Kaioshin makes the comment that sums it up effectively for me when he says, "It looks like he's purposely fighting without risk to challenge his own limits." The context of that statement wonderfully harkens back to the context of how Goku obtain Ultra Instinct.

Whis even make the further statement in how repeated exposure to extreme conditions can lead to acclimation. Goku is getting so much more used fighting with not much in tank as he had hope for, that his recovery time has accelerated. It's another example of how Goku put himself in a very dangerous position to see how his body reacts and whether he can learn from the scenario and improve himself, either in the midst of battle or after it.

Goku is a freak of nature. He's martial artists to his core. Any opportunity, regards of nonsensical the context may be, is seen as an avenue for Goku to improve capability. Goku seeks for any opportunity to challenge himself, and because of his unbelievable desire and incredible raw willpower, a trait of Goku's since the beginning of Dragon Ball, Goku has continuously been able to reach new heights of power, and he's constantly able to break through any glass ceilings of strength and can outperform himself constantly, even in midst of extreme conditions in battle. Goku's personal drive towards challenging himself is truly unlike any other character in Dragon Ball and Super emphasizes to heightened degrees repeatedly. Krillin comments, with regard to the context of his battles with Caulifla and Kale in Episode 113, about how Goku always pushes himself to the edge to further himself epitomise Goku's attitude.

There's a motto that the SAS have and I think it sufficiently sums up what Goku's personality towards improving himself: Who Dares, Wins.
True but haters gonna hate. Give that to someone like gohan or Vegeta, I wouldn't see anyone complaining but when it comes to Goku the vocal bunch of the community start bashing him. I mean this is the same fandom who bashes Goku for not being there for his family yet want Gohan to abandon his so they could see him fight.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by supersaiyanZero » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:51 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:There's been a few people who don't like the one of the angles of the Tournament Of Power since Episode 111, in that Goku seemingly being always low on energy and trying the recover his stamina. Now I've had a bit of issue with this myself, but after re-watching large chunks Super (Yeah, I do that often) I'm probably the only person on the forum who's going to say this but... I really like that angle. But only for one reason: it epitomises Goku's character of being a martial artists who performs far beyond his threshold through sheer willpower and is rewarded greatly for the risks he takes.

If there's one thing Super highlights throughout the show is that Goku is man that really has no limits who put himself in certain situations to challenge himself physically and mentally. In the Battle Of Gods arc, even though the Super Saiyan God form expired, his body learned from the experience was able to retain the power of Super Saiyan God for at least until the climax of his battle against Beerus.

In the Champa arc, Goku does the impossible and combines Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken to push his bodies potential through many glass ceilings, even though there was high chance he could cripple himself or die from doing that. Hell, even when he didn't miraculously kill himself from performing that combination technique, the aftereffects from that stunt were very much apparent. Hell, there was a whole episode dedicated to how much Goku's body became fucked up because of that Super Saiyan Blue/Kaioken scenario. But Goku's body eventually adapted to the circumstances though rigorous training from the conclusion of the Champa arc and beyond, accumulated with him now being able to stack Kaioken, twenty times fold no less, on top of Super Saiyan Blue with zero repercussions.

In the Future Trunks arc, we see Goku in two separate instances, one through rage (Episode 61) and other through sheer willpower (Episode 66), tap into energy I'm not sure even he was aware that he could tap into when powered up even further as a Super Saiyan Blue. And in the later example, Goku overclocked the amount of energy he expended in his beam clash against Merged Zamasu to such a degree he broke both of his arms.

After the Future Trunks arc, Goku hires Hit to try and assassinate him. Why? Purely because Goku wanted to challenge himself, regardless of the risks. And while Goku is fortunate that he was brought back the life, from the experience of his second skirmish with Hit, Goku was able to improve himself and could handle Hit's Timeskip abilities much better the third time around.

And it all comes together with how Goku obtains Ultra Instinct. Goku fought against the very power he collected from his allies in an attempt to defeat Jiren, and in the process of the clash between his own power and the power of the Genki Dama, reached a new plateau of strength. It's a magnificent evolution of the subtle context for which Goku approaches strength and attaining new forms. Goku used his own power to prevent himself from being consumed by the energy of the Genki Dama when it collapsed in on itself and exploded, and in the process, broke through his "shell", his utmost limits to be exact, to his deeper potential and allowed he to gain access to Ultra Instinct.

Goku has always been a character who has preferred to take the most unorthodox and unexpected methods of breaking through thresholds to obtain new realms in power and improve himself. Elder Kaioshin makes the comment that sums it up effectively for me when he says, "It looks like he's purposely fighting without risk to challenge his own limits." The context of that statement wonderfully harkens back to the context of how Goku obtain Ultra Instinct.

Whis even make the further statement in how repeated exposure to extreme conditions can lead to acclimation. Goku is getting so much more used fighting with not much in tank as he had hope for, that his recovery time has accelerated. It's another example of how Goku put himself in a very dangerous position to see how his body reacts and whether he can learn from the scenario and improve himself, either in the midst of battle or after it.

Goku is a freak of nature. He's martial artists to his core. Any opportunity, regards of nonsensical the context may be, is seen as an avenue for Goku to improve capability. Goku seeks for any opportunity to challenge himself, and because of his unbelievable desire and incredible raw willpower, a trait of Goku's since the beginning of Dragon Ball, Goku has continuously been able to reach new heights of power, and he's constantly able to break through any glass ceilings of strength and can outperform himself constantly, even in midst of extreme conditions in battle. Goku's personal drive towards challenging himself is truly unlike any other character in Dragon Ball and Super emphasizes to heightened degrees repeatedly. Krillin comments, with regard to the context of his battles with Caulifla and Kale in Episode 113, about how Goku always pushes himself to the edge to further himself epitomise Goku's attitude.

There's a motto that the SAS have and I think it sufficiently sums up what Goku's personality towards improving himself: Who Dares, Wins.

It just sounds like you're trying to rationalize Super's really bad writing. You can rationalize all you want, but Ican almost guarantee you that the effort and thought you put into your post is way more than anybody at Toei did. They are simply reusing the "Hero is almost defeated - but wait! If he digs down deep enough.." trope to the point of exhaustion. It's their way of trying to create tension or raising the stakes and to be honest, it's completely laughable. Goku was a character who was a fighting prodigy who's first Super Saiyan transformation was triggered by the death of his best friend. Today he's just a plot device used in order to sell more action figures - this whole stamina issue is just another gaping hole (of many)) in Super's writing because they either aren't interested in telling a cohesive story or just don't know how.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by Tombstone1988 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:14 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:-snip-
After reading your post, I sort of understand where you're coming from here, but I can't say I agree. Especially after this latest episode. What you described could theoretically rationalize why Goku was able to surpass his limits and tap into Ultra Instinct, but it doesn't really explain how willpower > stamina. As far back as the Universe 6 tournament, Goku has stated that Super Saiyan Blue takes "a lot of stamina" to use; in addition, Kaioken has always been a very stamina-intensive technique. This weakness was compounded by stacking it on top of the Super Saiyan Blue transformation. It's why the original success rate, according to Goku, was 10%. No matter how strong the character, stamina has almost always been an obstacle, even for Goku. At least, it has been until now, when suddenly Ultra Instinct gives him accelerated stamina regeneration when not in the form or something.

The latest episode pretty much cements my grievances with Goku's "stamina;" despite being drained and exhausted, Goku can still pull off SSB twice, the second time firing off a Kamehameha and stacking Kaioken onto it as well. This has nothing to do with martial arts or willpower or anything else. Goku is in a dire situation, so he powers up and wins. Logic is thrown out the window. All of the previously established rules are forgotten. He doesn't ease into the transformation, he hasn't rested to regain his strength, he isn't even doing anything clever. He simply goes maximum power and wins, completely ignoring stamina.

Again, this wouldn't be as big of a deal if it weren't for a few other factors. The first is that the show has hammered home how intense SSB with Kaioken is, so using it constantly when fatigued sort of goes against what they previously established. The second factor is that in the beginning of the tournament, they stated multiple times that the reason Goku and Vegeta were holding back was to conserve stamina. By having Goku able to activate SSB/Kaioken whenever he wants regardless of fatigue is sort of undermining that plot point. It makes the reason for holding back previously look less significant, thus devaluing that argument. The last factor is that they're repeating the plot point. If it was just the one time against Caulifla and Kale, maybe you could rationalize it with various factors. However, after exhausting himself in that fight, he's once again right back into combat and pulling out SSB/Kaioken. There's just a limit to how much absurdity an individual can swallow.

So yeah, I get what you're trying to say, but I don't think it adequately explains the lack of logic with Goku's stamina issues.
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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:11 am

Lord Beerus wrote:There's been a few people who don't like the one of the angles of the Tournament Of Power since Episode 111, in that Goku seemingly being always low on energy and trying the recover his stamina. Now I've had a bit of issue with this myself, but after re-watching large chunks Super (Yeah, I do that often) I'm probably the only person on the forum who's going to say this but... I really like that angle. But only for one reason: it epitomises Goku's character of being a martial artists who performs far beyond his threshold through sheer willpower and is rewarded greatly for the risks he takes.

If there's one thing Super highlights throughout the show is that Goku is man that really has no limits who put himself in certain situations to challenge himself physically and mentally. In the Battle Of Gods arc, even though the Super Saiyan God form expired, his body learned from the experience was able to retain the power of Super Saiyan God for at least until the climax of his battle against Beerus.

In the Champa arc, Goku does the impossible and combines Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken to push his bodies potential through many glass ceilings, even though there was high chance he could cripple himself or die from doing that. Hell, even when he didn't miraculously kill himself from performing that combination technique, the aftereffects from that stunt were very much apparent. Hell, there was a whole episode dedicated to how much Goku's body became fucked up because of that Super Saiyan Blue/Kaioken scenario. But Goku's body eventually adapted to the circumstances though rigorous training from the conclusion of the Champa arc and beyond, accumulated with him now being able to stack Kaioken, twenty times fold no less, on top of Super Saiyan Blue with zero repercussions.

In the Future Trunks arc, we see Goku in two separate instances, one through rage (Episode 61) and other through sheer willpower (Episode 66), tap into energy I'm not sure even he was aware that he could tap into when powered up even further as a Super Saiyan Blue. And in the later example, Goku overclocked the amount of energy he expended in his beam clash against Merged Zamasu to such a degree he broke both of his arms.

After the Future Trunks arc, Goku hires Hit to try and assassinate him. Why? Purely because Goku wanted to challenge himself, regardless of the risks. And while Goku is fortunate that he was brought back the life, from the experience of his second skirmish with Hit, Goku was able to improve himself and could handle Hit's Timeskip abilities much better the third time around.

And it all comes together with how Goku obtains Ultra Instinct. Goku fought against the very power he collected from his allies in an attempt to defeat Jiren, and in the process of the clash between his own power and the power of the Genki Dama, reached a new plateau of strength. It's a magnificent evolution of the subtle context for which Goku approaches strength and attaining new forms. Goku used his own power to prevent himself from being consumed by the energy of the Genki Dama when it collapsed in on itself and exploded, and in the process, broke through his "shell", his utmost limits to be exact, to his deeper potential and allowed he to gain access to Ultra Instinct.

Goku has always been a character who has preferred to take the most unorthodox and unexpected methods of breaking through thresholds to obtain new realms in power and improve himself. Elder Kaioshin makes the comment that sums it up effectively for me when he says, "It looks like he's purposely fighting without risk to challenge his own limits." The context of that statement wonderfully harkens back to the context of how Goku obtain Ultra Instinct.

Whis even make the further statement in how repeated exposure to extreme conditions can lead to acclimation. Goku is getting so much more used fighting with not much in tank as he had hope for, that his recovery time has accelerated. It's another example of how Goku put himself in a very dangerous position to see how his body reacts and whether he can learn from the scenario and improve himself, either in the midst of battle or after it.

Goku is a freak of nature. He's martial artists to his core. Any opportunity, regards of nonsensical the context may be, is seen as an avenue for Goku to improve capability. Goku seeks for any opportunity to challenge himself, and because of his unbelievable desire and incredible raw willpower, a trait of Goku's since the beginning of Dragon Ball, Goku has continuously been able to reach new heights of power, and he's constantly able to break through any glass ceilings of strength and can outperform himself constantly, even in midst of extreme conditions in battle. Goku's personal drive towards challenging himself is truly unlike any other character in Dragon Ball and Super emphasizes to heightened degrees repeatedly. Krillin comments, with regard to the context of his battles with Caulifla and Kale in Episode 113, about how Goku always pushes himself to the edge to further himself epitomise Goku's attitude.

There's a motto that the SAS have and I think it sufficiently sums up what Goku's personality towards improving himself: Who Dares, Wins.
I agree with this sentiment, pushing himself beyond his limits and doing stupid stuff, and that stupid stuff yielding results is at the core of Goku's character.

I think Super has taken an approach to this idea in a way the previous installments of the show didn't by actually having Goku improve himself by fighting beyond his limits, where as the previous installments merely had Goku do some off screen training to get a power-up. I'll be honest, I really enjoy this, from a writing stand point it allows us to easier to emphasize with the characters improvements and provides a genuine incitation for growth beyond just training before hand.

My only real problem with how this is sometimes handled, is that Goku pulling this can sometimes hurt the thematic undertones of the arc, for example in the FT arc, Goku gaining a power-up may seem a little bit out of place, since the arc is supposed to be grounded in the idea that merely emotional attacks will be completely ineffective(something they kind of tossed away in the later parts of the arc).

Overall, I think this most recent episode epitomized Goku with this single one line: "Universe 2. You guys keep surprisin' me. I kinda get just how amazing this "power of love" thing is. But... Sorry, but for me... More than love, I prefer guts!"
No truer words can be spoken of Goku.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by Zeru14 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:45 am

Tombstone1988 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:-snip-
After reading your post, I sort of understand where you're coming from here, but I can't say I agree. Especially after this latest episode. What you described could theoretically rationalize why Goku was able to surpass his limits and tap into Ultra Instinct, but it doesn't really explain how willpower > stamina. As far back as the Universe 6 tournament, Goku has stated that Super Saiyan Blue takes "a lot of stamina" to use; in addition, Kaioken has always been a very stamina-intensive technique. This weakness was compounded by stacking it on top of the Super Saiyan Blue transformation. It's why the original success rate, according to Goku, was 10%. No matter how strong the character, stamina has almost always been an obstacle, even for Goku. At least, it has been until now, when suddenly Ultra Instinct gives him accelerated stamina regeneration when not in the form or something.

The latest episode pretty much cements my grievances with Goku's "stamina;" despite being drained and exhausted, Goku can still pull off SSB twice, the second time firing off a Kamehameha and stacking Kaioken onto it as well. This has nothing to do with martial arts or willpower or anything else. Goku is in a dire situation, so he powers up and wins. Logic is thrown out the window. All of the previously established rules are forgotten. He doesn't ease into the transformation, he hasn't rested to regain his strength, he isn't even doing anything clever. He simply goes maximum power and wins, completely ignoring stamina.

Again, this wouldn't be as big of a deal if it weren't for a few other factors. The first is that the show has hammered home how intense SSB with Kaioken is, so using it constantly when fatigued sort of goes against what they previously established. The second factor is that in the beginning of the tournament, they stated multiple times that the reason Goku and Vegeta were holding back was to conserve stamina. By having Goku able to activate SSB/Kaioken whenever he wants regardless of fatigue is sort of undermining that plot point. It makes the reason for holding back previously look less significant, thus devaluing that argument. The last factor is that they're repeating the plot point. If it was just the one time against Caulifla and Kale, maybe you could rationalize it with various factors. However, after exhausting himself in that fight, he's once again right back into combat and pulling out SSB/Kaioken. There's just a limit to how much absurdity an individual can swallow.

So yeah, I get what you're trying to say, but I don't think it adequately explains the lack of logic with Goku's stamina issues.
Completely agree, all logic is being thrown out the window for the sake of dragging the story out, it absolutely ignores what Toriyama established about energy in the original Dragonball/Z run. When a fighter back then ran out of energy, that was it for them, without external assistance to replenish them they were done for the rest of the fight, that aid being Senzu Beans, Ki Transfer, Magic Healer or a Wish on the Dragonballs(Kid Buu). No one could just fight more to get their lost stamina/Ki back.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by buutenks » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:47 am

Nah, they are simply doing it to make Goku look cool. You would never see this in Z. When you are out of stamina, you are out of stamina. I dont get why they keep mentioning this stamina thing if they just ignore it lol.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:43 am

buutenks wrote:Nah, they are simply doing it to make Goku look cool. You would never see this in Z. When you are out of stamina, you are out of stamina. I dont get why they keep mentioning this stamina thing if they just ignore it lol.
They're taking notes from early One Piece in terms of writing, by having the characters grow stronger, the more they fight, even though they are also losing stamina throughout the fight.

TBH, I actually like this idea, as it actually allows them to demonstrate the characters pushing themselves beyond their limitations, by having him constantly fighting against strong opponents at his most vulnerable, basically forcing him to improve.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by SonReggie » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:51 am

Pretty much agree with the OP.

From what we've seen of it thus far, Ultra Instinct only seems to occur when Goku is on his proverbial 'last legs'. Ultra Instinct seems to be a 'last resort' power for the moment and Goku seems to realise this.

As the OP said, Goku will push himself regardless of risk/danger to himself and if he has realised that UI is, for the time being, unlocked when he has nothing else left then we can expect him to keep fighting the way he has been.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by buutenks » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:37 am

JazzMazz wrote:
buutenks wrote:Nah, they are simply doing it to make Goku look cool. You would never see this in Z. When you are out of stamina, you are out of stamina. I dont get why they keep mentioning this stamina thing if they just ignore it lol.
They're taking notes from early One Piece in terms of writing, by having the characters grow stronger, the more they fight, even though they are also losing stamina throughout the fight.

TBH, I actually like this idea, as it actually allows them to demonstrate the characters pushing themselves beyond their limitations, by having him constantly fighting against strong opponents at his most vulnerable, basically forcing him to improve.
Ye but, this isnt how DB world works. Plus when Whis is talking about breaking out of his shell, he mostly means UI. Not spamming blue. Whis didnt say, aha if Goku keeps spamming blue he will surely unlock UI again. he said if Goku keeps getting hit hard enough while he is cornered he will unlock UI.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:00 am

buutenks wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
buutenks wrote:Nah, they are simply doing it to make Goku look cool. You would never see this in Z. When you are out of stamina, you are out of stamina. I dont get why they keep mentioning this stamina thing if they just ignore it lol.
They're taking notes from early One Piece in terms of writing, by having the characters grow stronger, the more they fight, even though they are also losing stamina throughout the fight.

TBH, I actually like this idea, as it actually allows them to demonstrate the characters pushing themselves beyond their limitations, by having him constantly fighting against strong opponents at his most vulnerable, basically forcing him to improve.
Ye but, this isnt how DB world works. Plus when Whis is talking about breaking out of his shell, he mostly means UI. Not spamming blue. Whis didnt say, aha if Goku keeps spamming blue he will surely unlock UI again. he said if Goku keeps getting hit hard enough while he is cornered he will unlock UI.
When breaking out of his shell, he meant shattering his usual limitations, so that means pushing himself beyond his peak power and form, which is Super Saiyan Blue.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by Rebel Instinct » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:59 am

Asura wrote:I was writing up a whole long post for this thread about why none of this shit makes any sense and it's absolutely infuriating to see TOEI pull so many ass pulls time after time again, but honestly I give up. TOEI is god awful at explaining things and that's just the way things are always going to be. None of their logic makes any sense and that's just how it's always going to be too. I'm just going to accept it and stop questioning it. Losing all your energy makes you gain all your energy, Goku is now a walking senzu bean, the best way to show that Goku has no stamina is to show him going full power with Kaioken on top of it every time, showing Goku stumbling to even stand straight means he can go SSB Kaioken in a minute afterwards while still fighting, and somehow all of this makes perfect sense because Whis says so. The sky is blue but Whis could put on a whole long explanation about how it's red and I'm sure someone here would nod their head in agreement that it is indeed red (Goku is exhausted and out of energy) despite looking straight at the blue sky on the screen (Goku is clearly not out of energy at all), because Whis is telling you it's red. Plus it's just not worth the effort to argue with the plethora of excuses and faulty reasoning that people will put out as a result of me disagreeing with their writing decisions.
You've illustrated one reason why I choose to take a more reserved approach to engaging with Super and the Dragon Ball fandom overall (outside my own personal issues with the series). Specifically the bits I've bolded mirror my own feelings rather well. In general, I only choose to speak up when there's something I either feel strongly about or otherwise have something I feel is worth putting out there. While that has gone over fairly well so far in my short time here, it's mostly because those people who took it to heart already shared similar sentiments to mine to begin with and the things I had to say simply resonated with them. While this is fine and has a certain value in its own right, the amount of effort put into writing detailed breakdowns and explaining my thoughts and feelings ultimately ends up feeling wasted because it doesn't really accomplish much beyond venting - especially when you often get worthless responses like "haters gonna hate". :roll:

Dragon Ball Super is already a global smash-hit as it is. Arguing even the most compelling case for why Super's writing doesn't add up ultimately feels like a fruitless endeavor since it won't change what Super is or how the world perceives it. If Super's writing hasn't shaken its fans' feelings by this point, it never really will. The justifications Super provides for itself are all that most fans need to accept what's happening on screen. Trying to argue against the statements made in the show because they seem to fly in the face of previously established notions is usually an exhausting uphill battle and it rarely changes minds by the end of things. If the show says the blue sky is red, most fans will argue that it's red - even if it doesn't actually add up with what's being shown. If you don't think that's acceptable and keep trying to go against the flow, it can end up burning you out over time. I hit that wall myself about a year ago and it kinda bums me out to see others hit that point as well. There just comes a point where you either embrace things as they are or lose interest in what the series has become. I kinda envy those who were able to do the former and continue fully enjoying the show.
Asura wrote:All I'll say is this. The concept of Goku breaking through his limit to obtain new power he didn't know he had is a good one. The execution of Goku magically regaining all of his energy and stamina whenever he wants despite it being hammered into our head every single episode that he's all out of fuel is not such a great execution. It didn't make the greatest of sense with Goku somehow regaining his energy while fighting Caulifla, but she's weaker than him so OK, sure, I can accept that. Plus his fight with Caulifla and Kale, leading up to Kefla with him slowly going from base, to SSJ2, to SSJ3, to SSG to SSB/SSBK makes sense in showing us that he is very slowly gaining his energy and power back, and is forced to use as much as he can of it which causes him to break past his limits. OK, sure this makes sense. What does not make sense is Goku now immediately going into SSB whenever he wants despite having no energy or stamina, or being given ample time to slowly gather up his energy like he did against Caulifla and Kale.

If Goku was a battery, and lets say he started at 10% charge against Caulifla and Kale, we can see that battery slowly charging as he gets back into the swing of things. 10%, 15%, 25%, 40%, 60%... etc.

If Goku was a battery in this episode, and lets say he started at 10% charge, suddenly he can now go to 100% in an instant. It makes for a pretty great phone battery, but a pretty shitty explanation as to how Goku is supposedly exhausted, and a pretty unbelievable explanation as to how Goku is breaking his limits. If your limit is 100%, you need to be going above 100% to break that limit. It's pretty unbelievable to me that Goku can go from 10% to over 100% in the blink of an eye. How about showing us him slowly getting a lot closer to that 100% number like we saw with him against Caulifla/Kale/Kefla before breaking his limit instead of the magic ass pull he did in this episode? We've seen time and time again in both Z and Super what happens when Goku is exhausted or loses his stamina. He can't transform. Couldn't do it against Kid Buu, couldn't do it against Zamasu, hell he couldn't even do it against Caulifla at first, he had to slowly ramp up the transformations. None of that logic was applied to this episode, and Super's writing is always at its worst when it tries to deviate from consistency and logic.
Outside of certain writing decisions, this is my biggest issue with the anime. Super has a tendency to go against long established series conventions or retcon them entirely on what appears to be little more than a whim. The anime has created this trend of establishing a specific dynamic for something and only holding onto it so long as it facilitates the immediate plot, then later either arbitrarily ignoring that dynamic or throwing it out and establishing a new dynamic in its place that doesn't entirely gel with what came before. Goku's constant on again, off again stamina problems are just the most recent example of this. For whatever reason, the anime doesn't want to stick to the things it just established as major plot points a short while ago (let alone the foundations that were built up in Z). It all feels incredibly wishy washy, like the established mechanics can be ignored at any moment just to make something cool happen. Super could easily be both cool and consistent if it really wanted to be. These things should be simple.
The post-Super fandom has ruined my love for Dragon Ball.
LightBing wrote:Most of what's going on here isn't speculation, it's judgment's and conclusions. It's the reason why the manga thread is closed, it's the reason why VegettoEX warned people not to do what they are doing a few pages ago.

It's people riveting on their chance to feel validated in their opinion; to attack the "manga fans" whatever that means to prove themselves. My assumption is that everyone here is a Dragon Ball fan, capable of having discussions as equals and not segregate ourselves in little sectors trying to be the "superior faction" ignoring arguments, politeness and even common sense(like having all the information at hand).

Clearly I am mistaken.

I wish we were having fun making up theories or cracking up jokes.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:51 am

I'm sure it's been brought up in other conversations and bits of context, but I don't see it mentioned here yet, and I'd like to throw it in.

Why isn't anyone here bringing up the idea of the "runner's high"? In a nutshell, it's this point where your exhaustion is quite palpable, but you hit this point of tranquility and being "in the zone" where your body seems to transcend what should otherwise be possible if you were to describe that exhaustion. You... break your limits, really. (And it's not necessarily that healthy to do so...)

I haven't been running as much as I'd like for the last couple years, instead focusing on some group classes. I definitely had an experience like this over the weekend where I couldn't believe how exhausted I was, and then in the last track I kinda zoned out and punched harder and faster than I ever have before. It was a combination of the music and the exact punch pattern to follow that made it possible. And this was AFTER tracks that were effectively down-time or otherwise active-recovery, meaning it wasn't like it was a slow increase up to that point; rather, it was an ebb and flow of high and low intensity.

With that being said, I actually see a lot of that in Goku's fighting. He's giving his body a little bit of recovery time, but just enough to get back into the swing of things and not let himself get to the point where the exhaustion is what takes over.

I don't think the pacing of it all makes the most sense, but that's from a viewer's standpoint; from an in-universe standpoint, it's all happening a lot faster.

So I dunno, this is really just something I can't really fault Toei/Toriyama/etc. on from a fighting/conditioning/growth standpoint. I've experienced it to MUUUUUUUCH less of a degree as a mere mortal, I know that actual athletes/competitors have the same thing, and here we're talking about one of the baddest dudes in the galaxy.
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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by TheMikado » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:23 am

I think the context of the unequal writing is what is causing such an issue.

Let me put it this way:
SSB consists of perfect ki control and a peaceful transformation.
While the only way we have seen this actually go into effect is through combining SSB and Kaioken, the fandom has taken it to mean all sorts of things which were never explained in universe.
Remember this was during the time period when we are trying to figure out why Goku is using SSJ instead of SSB if SSB has all these benefits.
It's not until recently that it is revealed that SSB has a stamina drain and SSG is brought back.

At this point we have to reconcile all the times Goku used SSB and SSJ retroactively.
Even if we don't its hard not to feel the "stamina" issue was created as a means of suddenly and artificially handicapping Goku.

Now to contrast this with Z and how it plays out when Goku gains SSJ.
1) We know Goku could not go SSJ at will easily per his own words.
2) We know that the transformations themselves drain stamina, Goku emphasizes this in his training
3) Goku takes a actual training strategy to mitigate those effects.
4) Goku applies the strategy consistently and with discipline
5) We see the adverse effects of a different training path through Vegeta and Trunks.
6) Gohan's specialized training seems to help facilitate Gohan's transformation.

We didn't get the setup or foreshadowing that we did for the other forms short of SSJ3.
I think we can look at it afterwards and say "Ok, the kinda makes sense if I look at it like this..."
But we never had to do that before the because the writer always had in mind what he wanted the audience to take from it and the conclusions they should come to.
Toriyama was explicit about the benefits of Goku staying in SSJ form were and what he wanted them to take from that training and how it applied to their fighting.

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