Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Nero<>Akira
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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by Nero<>Akira » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:02 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I'm sure it's been brought up in other conversations and bits of context, but I don't see it mentioned here yet, and I'd like to throw it in.

Why isn't anyone here bringing up the idea of the "runner's high"? In a nutshell, it's this point where your exhaustion is quite palpable, but you hit this point of tranquility and being "in the zone" where your body seems to transcend what should otherwise be possible if you were to describe that exhaustion. You... break your limits, really. (And it's not necessarily that healthy to do so...)

I haven't been running as much as I'd like for the last couple years, instead focusing on some group classes. I definitely had an experience like this over the weekend where I couldn't believe how exhausted I was, and then in the last track I kinda zoned out and punched harder and faster than I ever have before. It was a combination of the music and the exact punch pattern to follow that made it possible. And this was AFTER tracks that were effectively down-time or otherwise active-recovery, meaning it wasn't like it was a slow increase up to that point; rather, it was an ebb and flow of high and low intensity.

With that being said, I actually see a lot of that in Goku's fighting. He's giving his body a little bit of recovery time, but just enough to get back into the swing of things and not let himself get to the point where the exhaustion is what takes over.

I don't think the pacing of it all makes the most sense, but that's from a viewer's standpoint; from an in-universe standpoint, it's all happening a lot faster.

So I dunno, this is really just something I can't really fault Toei/Toriyama/etc. on from a fighting/conditioning/growth standpoint. I've experienced it to MUUUUUUUCH less of a degree as a mere mortal, I know that actual athletes/competitors have the same thing, and here we're talking about one of the baddest dudes in the galaxy.
This is exactly what is happening. But people like to project mortal standards and limits to people that can bust and tank multi-universal attacks.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Artorias
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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by Artorias » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:10 pm

I like the concept of Goku surpassing limits through sheer willpower and everything you said, but I think it might just be because I'm a shameless Goku fanboy. Everyone has that childhood cartoon/anime/movie hero they look up to as a kid, and Goku was mine. And that emotional connection with the character has carried over into my adulthood, so seeing him do anything cool and impressive is always a treat for me. But again, I can't really expect others that don't like Goku as much as I do to roll with all of this. It IS kinda bullshit a lot of the times.

That scene in episode 66 where he just powers through Zamasu's beam through sheer willpower and goes on the assault is one of my favorite moments of the show, but it's undeniably shitty writing. And I think that applies in this tournament as well. As much as I'm thoroughly enjoying seeing Goku going to town in this arc, a lot of the times it is just objectively silly writing. I honestly feel bad for the Gohan or Vegeta fans that don't get to see their guys get the bullshit plot armor power ups and stamina recovery and whatnot.
Khandom101 wrote: True but haters gonna hate. Give that to someone like gohan or Vegeta, I wouldn't see anyone complaining but when it comes to Goku the vocal bunch of the community start bashing him. I mean this is the same fandom who bashes Goku for not being there for his family yet want Gohan to abandon his so they could see him fight.
The classic "It isn't bad writing if it's benefitting my guy".

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by BlueBasilisk » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:23 pm

Artorias wrote:I like the concept of Goku surpassing limits through sheer willpower and everything you said, but I think it might just be because I'm a shameless Goku fanboy. Everyone has that childhood cartoon/anime/movie hero they look up to as a kid, and Goku was mine. And that emotional connection with the character has carried over into my adulthood, so seeing him do anything cool and impressive is always a treat for me. But again, I can't really expect others that don't like Goku as much as I do to roll with all of this. It IS kinda bullshit a lot of the times.

That scene in episode 66 where he just powers through Zamasu's beam through sheer willpower and goes on the assault is one of my favorite moments of the show, but it's undeniably shitty writing. And I think that applies in this tournament as well. As much as I'm thoroughly enjoying seeing Goku going to town in this arc, a lot of the times it is just objectively silly writing. I honestly feel bad for the Gohan or Vegeta fans that don't get to see their guys get the bullshit plot armor power ups and stamina recovery and whatnot.
I don't mind the concept of what he's doing, just the execution. It doesn't seem like being tired has changed much if anything about the way he's fighting. Something like this happened in BoG when Beerus has to slap him down three or four times before he finally conceded defeat, but it started to feel more desperate each time and you could tell he was reaching the end of his rope by the last one. Maybe that'll change once we finally get back to Jiren?

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:38 pm

That scene in episode 66 where he just powers through Zamasu's beam through sheer willpower and goes on the assault is one of my favorite moments of the show, but it's undeniably shitty writing
It can be explained by the fact Fused Zamasu, due to his arrogance, wasn't using nearly as much power as he could've (Vegeta previously stated that he was merely toying around with them, although that was before Zamasu got hit hard by the father-son Galick Gun). In addition, Goku charged against an unsuspecting Zamasu, who was shocked by the fact half his face had just been scarred (so his immortality was somehow flawed), therefore Goku could unleash his strength on an unprepared Zamasu. As lame as they might seem, i do believe there are logical explanations behind that moment. But i do agree that it was a pretty cool scene and it showed that Goku was not afraid to break his limits to protect Earth. He even fractured his own arms to pierce Zamasu's Divine Wrath. It was the biggest Kamehameha i had ever seen.

Another scene that is a fan-favourite is when Goku goes on a rampage in ep. 61 after having learnt of what happened to another timeline's Goku, Chi Chi and Goten, so he was able for a moment to break his limits and trash all over Black and Future Zamasu (until Black inevitably got a Zenkai boost and beat him). It is defniitely a recurring theme in Super, that of Goku being cornered by the enemy but somehow being able to emerge on top and push beyond his limits (the only exception being ep. 67).
"Oh I've learned a lesson. Mortals are even more dangerous than I thought. Know this...Goku...I will never forget you."

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Artorias
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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by Artorias » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:48 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
That scene in episode 66 where he just powers through Zamasu's beam through sheer willpower and goes on the assault is one of my favorite moments of the show, but it's undeniably shitty writing
It can be explained by the fact Fused Zamasu, due to his arrogance, wasn't using nearly as much power as he could've (Vegeta previously stated that he was merely toying around with them, although that was before Zamasu got hit hard by the father-son Galick Gun). In addition, Goku charged against an unsuspecting Zamasu, who was shocked by the fact half his face had just been scarred (so his immortality was somehow flawed), therefore Goku could unleash his strength on an unprepared Zamasu. As lame as they might seem, i do believe there are logical explanations behind that moment. But i do agree that it was a pretty cool scene and it showed that Goku was not afraid to break his limits to protect Earth. He even fractured his own arms to pierce Zamasu's Divine Wrath. It was the biggest Kamehameha i had ever seen.

Another scene that is a fan-favourite is when Goku goes on a rampage in ep. 61 after having learnt of what happened to another timeline's Goku, Chi Chi and Goten, so he was able for a moment to break his limits and trash all over Black and Future Zamasu (until Black inevitably got a Zenkai boost and beat him). It is defniitely a recurring theme in Super, that of Goku being cornered by the enemy but somehow being able to emerge on top and push beyond his limits (the only exception being ep. 67).
I agree with the second part of your explanation, that Zamasu was merely taken off guard due to his face getting melted, and it is therefore feasible that Goku could land some hits, but I've never really bought the "he wasn't really trying in the beam struggle" argument. The animation made it a point to really show that he was truly trying. The facial expressions, combined with the intense grunting and screaming he was doing hinted that he was pushing pretty damn hard. I just don't think it makes sense to lose a beam struggle when you're stronger than the other guy, because it's not like you can get "caught off guard" by that sort of thing. You have PLENTY of time to react and push back as much as you need. That would be like accidentally losing an arm wrestling match against a 5 year old. That's literally impossible if you're paying attention and actually want to win.

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by Tombstone1988 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:45 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I'm sure it's been brought up in other conversations and bits of context, but I don't see it mentioned here yet, and I'd like to throw it in.

Why isn't anyone here bringing up the idea of the "runner's high"?
I sort of alluded to this point when I brought up the Caulifla/Kale point, but I suppose I could elaborate more. I do agree that the idea of a "runner's high" (aka that rush of adrenaline you can get even when you're exhausted) could be used as an explanation for that fight. However, this brings me back to one of my original points of Super repeating the plot point. If it were just that one isolated incident, I feel it could work, but it isn't. In episode 118, Goku is right back to charging up full power and knocking fighters around. A "runner's high" is a temporary burst of energy, brought on by the body pushing itself (in an unhealthy way, as you pointed out). That energy has to come from somewhere. When fighting Kefla, it is conceivable that Goku dragged out the last bits of his reserves to keep going. However, this doesn't account for after their fight ended. No one gave Goku energy after beating Kefla. He hasn't had a senzu bean or been sitting back, resting. He's still right in the thick of things.

I don't disagree with your argument, but I feel it doesn't adequately cover enough to be completely satisfactory. A little more explanation from Super would be very much appreciated.
"If you notice this and understand that it's flawed and just don't let it bother you, that's perfectly fine. But enjoying a flawed movie and calling a movie flawless are two completely different things."

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(Replace "movie" with "DBS episode" and that's pretty much my thoughts in regards to DBS critique)

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Re: Goku's Stamina In Battle: A Deeper Look At Self Improvement

Post by majinwarman » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:20 pm

Artorias wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
That scene in episode 66 where he just powers through Zamasu's beam through sheer willpower and goes on the assault is one of my favorite moments of the show, but it's undeniably shitty writing
It can be explained by the fact Fused Zamasu, due to his arrogance, wasn't using nearly as much power as he could've (Vegeta previously stated that he was merely toying around with them, although that was before Zamasu got hit hard by the father-son Galick Gun). In addition, Goku charged against an unsuspecting Zamasu, who was shocked by the fact half his face had just been scarred (so his immortality was somehow flawed), therefore Goku could unleash his strength on an unprepared Zamasu. As lame as they might seem, i do believe there are logical explanations behind that moment. But i do agree that it was a pretty cool scene and it showed that Goku was not afraid to break his limits to protect Earth. He even fractured his own arms to pierce Zamasu's Divine Wrath. It was the biggest Kamehameha i had ever seen.

Another scene that is a fan-favourite is when Goku goes on a rampage in ep. 61 after having learnt of what happened to another timeline's Goku, Chi Chi and Goten, so he was able for a moment to break his limits and trash all over Black and Future Zamasu (until Black inevitably got a Zenkai boost and beat him). It is defniitely a recurring theme in Super, that of Goku being cornered by the enemy but somehow being able to emerge on top and push beyond his limits (the only exception being ep. 67).
I agree with the second part of your explanation, that Zamasu was merely taken off guard due to his face getting melted, and it is therefore feasible that Goku could land some hits, but I've never really bought the "he wasn't really trying in the beam struggle" argument. The animation made it a point to really show that he was truly trying. The facial expressions, combined with the intense grunting and screaming he was doing hinted that he was pushing pretty damn hard. I just don't think it makes sense to lose a beam struggle when you're stronger than the other guy, because it's not like you can get "caught off guard" by that sort of thing. You have PLENTY of time to react and push back as much as you need. That would be like accidentally losing an arm wrestling match against a 5 year old. That's literally impossible if you're paying attention and actually want to win.
I think it can be good of bad writing from different points of view. I personally don't have a opinion due to I'm still mad at what happened at the end of the episode.
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