Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by vashter » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:46 am

made a double post LOL
Last edited by vashter on Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by vashter » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:47 am

vashter wrote:
Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:
Akyon wrote:'Designed' is giving this far too much credit.
I guess at least it's Gohan and not Goku in a new outfit this time.

Original Dragonball character do not steal.

I really hope it's not that guy just due to his uninspired look. Say what you will about the U6 saiyan designs, at least they weren't Malibu Gohan in a new hat.
The promo artist didn't do Toriyama's drawing justice in that image IMO.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
He looks waaay better in Toriyama's original drawing. I didn't get the impression that he looked like Gohan up until I saw the promo image.
why that fucking pics remind me of this? https://imgur.com/a/NniWZ

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Re: Official "DB 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by majinwarman » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:36 am

BlueBasilisk wrote:This is what I was expecting to see at the end of 131 or at Anime Japan this weekend. What on earth are they going to show there if they're giving us this teaser right now? :eh:
That is a good question.
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Re: Official "DB 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:45 am

Ajay wrote:This is entirely untrue. Please don't make things up. Automated tweens have nothing to do with loose designs. Even if they did, Dragon Ball's key animation is not digital.
?!?!

I never said key animation was digital (it might be for this new movie, we don't know). In any case, key animation will invariably have to reflect the overall style they chose in the first place. I'm talking about the simplification of designs and shapes does help in terms of developing and processing animation and transitions. It saves both time and money. That's the whole point. But let's not pretend that the art style doesn't suffer. One is done at the expense of the other, and vice versa.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:53 am

Despite being pretty happy with the animation quality and the new style, I do have to say that I'm a bit anxious when it comes to the rest of the cast, particularly Piccolo and Vegeta. A "childlike/cute" look can fit Goku and the Sons, but I don't know about the rest. Vegeta and Piccolo should have a sharper, rougher aspect to their design. A shorter face with eyes being further apart might not look all that good on them.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:16 am

ErikB wrote:I'm absolutely adoring the animation in the new teaser. However, I've seen the sentiment of “they sacrificed art for animation” expressed a few times and that's frustrating me. They didn't sacrifice the art at all. The individual drawings in the teaser are vastly superior to the majority of what we've seen in Super.

More surface-level details do not make a drawing good. A poorly-structured drawing is a poorly-structured drawing no matter how much extra hatching, shading and highlights you slap onto it.

I whipped up a quick example:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
The Vegeta on the right has more detail. There are more lines on his face, ears and neck, there are more corners to get that sharp, angular look, there's even a laid out highlight in his hair, but...I'd be stunned if anybody honestly thought it was the better drawing. It's terrible. None of the placements of his features make any sense. It's flat, awkward and ugly. And it's exactly the kind of shit we've been seeing all over the franchise for the last several years.

Meanwhile the Vegeta on the left is far less detailed. It's very soft and round, and there are less lines in the facial features, the ears, neck, and even the hair...and yet it's a dramatically better drawing. It's visibly better-structured because...
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
...it actually was structured. I put significantly more time and effort into the one on the left.

And that's exactly what I'm seeing in the teaser. There's a sense of volume in the art style that we haven't had in a long time (barring the occasional episodes of Super that deliberately ignored the character models in the interest of actually looking good).
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I honestly get the impression that this is a skewed/tilted example that you're giving here.

The issue with the Vegeta on the right isn't the facial details in and of themselves; its the fact that the shape of the head itself (and other aspects like his hairline, etc) are grossly misaligned. Probably because, as you alluded to (and again correct me if I'm wrong here), you drew it more free-handed and without structuring it in advance first (as you did the one on the left). If you wanted, you COULD add a bit more extra detail (even shading) to the Vegeta on the left, and it wouldn't really lose anything for it.

I've generally thought that the "detail vs fluidity" thing is kind of a false choice and that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Plenty of anime have used more detailed character models and didn't sacrifice very much in the way of fluidity and movement going back more than 30+ years now (Yoshiaki Kawajiri for example has made an entire career out of his knack for consistently managing to balance exceedingly detailed character models with lush, smooth, and vibrant motion, to say nothing of titles like the original '95 Oshii Ghost in the Shell film, as well as Akira and most other anime adaptations of Katsuhiro Otomo's work in general).

Even Dragon Ball itself has managed it, with some of the best animated films and episodes from the series original heyday managing to look absolutely stunning in motion without sacrificing much in the way of model detail.

A couple quick examples:

Image

Image

Both of these scenes (one from the TV series, the other from a movie, both mid-90s) use some of the most detailed character models in the series and yet still feature unbelievably excellent sense of lifelike movement and incredible fluidity. Neither had to be sacrificed at the altar of the other in the process.

I'm not saying this is EASY mind you: it obviously requires much more in the way of budget and effort. But the results speak for themselves. I understand having a personal stylistic preference for less detailed models, but that isn't at all the same thing as less detailed models being some kind of outright necessity that frees up or better enables superior motion (as seems to be the suggestion in many of these kinds of posts/discussions around here): because that simply isn't the case and never has been. Certainly not in the Japanese anime industry.

Note that this isn't a knock on the new animation in the teaser trailer: I think what we've seen so far looks great. I just hope that going forward, we don't start using this as some kind of argument to justify jettisoning more detailed character modeling from this point forward as being somehow "necessary" for the movement. Nor for that matter, do I wish to see people use the "detail vs motion" issue as the main reason for what the problems with Yamamuro's animation/character-modeling style was throughout the bulk of Super (which are a lot more specific and nuanced than simply boiling it all down to the linework being too overly detailed and thus somehow getting in the way of the dynamism of motion and movement).
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Re: Official "DB 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by Sin » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:24 am

Luso Saiyan wrote:
Ajay wrote:This is entirely untrue. Please don't make things up. Automated tweens have nothing to do with loose designs. Even if they did, Dragon Ball's key animation is not digital.
?!?!

I never said key animation was digital (it might be for this new movie, we don't know). In any case, key animation will invariably have to reflect the overall style they chose in the first place. I'm talking about the simplification of designs and shapes does help in terms of developing and processing animation and transitions. It saves both time and money. That's the whole point. But let's not pretend that the art style doesn't suffer. One is done at the expense of the other, and vice versa.
That just isn't true, or if it is it can only be on a subjective level if you truly believe simplification is detrimental to the 'art style'. It's fairly obvious that the simplification IS the art style, If they had wanted to use the same art style they have used for the last 2 films they would have, this is intentional and the fact you feel that the art style is suffering in a bid to have better animation is just your opinion.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by ReadyComicsRoll » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:27 am

Only things we know for certain are as follows...

- The story, screenplay, and character designs are Akira Toriyama, which it's nice to have him heavily involved in another Dragon Ball project.
- According to Toriyama, the story will revolve around the ancestry of the Saiyans and somehow also relate to Frieza, and will take place AFTER the Tournament of Power.
- The new enemy is a Saiyan. This hasn't been actually stated, like the previous two points, but you can clearly see they are wearing Saiyan armor, and are powering up into the Legendary Super Saiyan/Berserker form (seen at 1:48)

I'm loving the art style, as it reminds of late Dragon Ball/early Dragon Ball Z, and the animation looks clean and fluid. Granted, this is only a teaser, and not everything is finalized, but I'm still happy with what we've been shown. TURTLE HERMIT GI, BABY!

The few questions I'm left with are...

- Who is this Saiyan? Feels like it could be either Yamoshi or maybe even the Saiyan King of Sadala, from Universe 6 (especially given that this takes place after ToP, and countless fans wanted to see Goku and Vegeta visit there), or maybe even someone new altogether. HIGHLY doubt it's one we've seen already, like Broly.
- How will the fight work with current power scaling and abilities? We know Goku has Mastered Ultra Instinct, so will he use it, or any other form for that matter, in this fight?

Either way, trailer did its job, and I CAN'T WAIT for more info!

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by sangofe » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:34 am

Is that a golden oozaru in the trailer? I like the animation but not the coloring...

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by STH » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:44 am

I prefer RoF movie art style to this movie.

RoF:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Super:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by sangofe » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:00 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:Will Sumitomo return to do the score or will they get someone else just for this movie?

Imagine someone like Yuki Hayashi doing the soundtrack. That would make me go insane. He did the music for One Piece FIlm: Gold so it's a possibility.
I sure hope so! There ain’t no great dragon ball product without Sumitomo!
Is that sarcasm?

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:21 am

Still hoping we'd get new outfits, if not the return of the belt would be sweet. With no undershirt the RF gi for Goku is even more animator-friendly.

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Re: Official "DB 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:52 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: That's the vibe I'm getting too, trying to show the emphasis on the new change.

But anyway, a Saiyan huh? Well that's a bit disappointing, we just had Black. But it does make sense given they said the movie would be about Saiyans.
Black was Zamasu in Goku’s body, not a ‘real Saiyan’.

Anyway, I’m getting a One Piece movie six vibe. Namely they’re going for a less detailed style for more fluid animation. It will take time, but I will grow into it.
Goku is a Saiyan. Ergo Black/Zamasu stealing his body makes him one. No two ways about it. He can transform and use techniques like one.
There is more to being an 'evil Saiyan' then just having the body of one as Vegeta himself pointed out Black.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by Firebolt » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:20 am

So my theory is that just like the Legendary SS form– SS4 will also be renamed and reworked to fit within Super – and the new villain will have this form.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:26 am

Firebolt wrote:So my theory is that just like the Legendary SS form– SS4 will also be renamed and reworked to fit within Super – and the new villain will have this form.
Or the dude just has yellow eyes because he was born with them. Not everything has to be a rehash, and considering that Toriyama is almost fully responsible for the characters and story, there wont be any

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:28 am

Geraldix wrote:Hear me out boys, the plot will go like this:

> Whis tells Goku about the legend of Yamoshi, the original super saiyan god, who lived thousands of years ago
> Goku says it is a pity he can't fight such an interesting guy. Whis says he could arrange that by sending Goku to the past, with the condition that he won't do anything that can change the past, or grave consequences will occur
I stop reading on that part, after Whis have said on FT arc that time travel was a crime between deities why he would go against that just to please Goku needs? Don't think he would do that.
Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
He looks waaay better in Toriyama's original drawing. I didn't get the impression that he looked like Gohan up until I saw the promo image.
Oh you're right! Such a shame we have a promo artist that can't do things right.
Kunzait_83 wrote:[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Love this cut, you can feel the impact of Gogeta's kick. It almost makes me dizzy lol
sangofe wrote:Is that a golden oozaru in the trailer? I like the animation but not the coloring...
It's not a trailer and yes a teaser.
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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:33 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
ErikB wrote:I'm absolutely adoring the animation in the new teaser. However, I've seen the sentiment of “they sacrificed art for animation” expressed a few times and that's frustrating me. They didn't sacrifice the art at all. The individual drawings in the teaser are vastly superior to the majority of what we've seen in Super.

More surface-level details do not make a drawing good. A poorly-structured drawing is a poorly-structured drawing no matter how much extra hatching, shading and highlights you slap onto it.

I whipped up a quick example:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
The Vegeta on the right has more detail. There are more lines on his face, ears and neck, there are more corners to get that sharp, angular look, there's even a laid out highlight in his hair, but...I'd be stunned if anybody honestly thought it was the better drawing. It's terrible. None of the placements of his features make any sense. It's flat, awkward and ugly. And it's exactly the kind of shit we've been seeing all over the franchise for the last several years.

Meanwhile the Vegeta on the left is far less detailed. It's very soft and round, and there are less lines in the facial features, the ears, neck, and even the hair...and yet it's a dramatically better drawing. It's visibly better-structured because...
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
...it actually was structured. I put significantly more time and effort into the one on the left.

And that's exactly what I'm seeing in the teaser. There's a sense of volume in the art style that we haven't had in a long time (barring the occasional episodes of Super that deliberately ignored the character models in the interest of actually looking good).
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I honestly get the impression that this is a skewed/tilted example that you're giving here.

The issue with the Vegeta on the right isn't the facial details in and of themselves; its the fact that the shape of the head itself (and other aspects like his hairline, etc) are grossly misaligned. Probably because, as you alluded to (and again correct me if I'm wrong here), you drew it more free-handed and without structuring it in advance first (as you did the one on the left). If you wanted, you COULD add a bit more extra detail (even shading) to the Vegeta on the left, and it wouldn't really lose anything for it.

I've generally thought that the "detail vs fluidity" thing is kind of a false choice and that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Plenty of anime have used more detailed character models and didn't sacrifice very much in the way of fluidity and movement going back more than 30+ years now (Yoshiaki Kawajiri for example has made an entire career out of his knack for consistently managing to balance exceedingly detailed character models with lush, smooth, and vibrant motion, to say nothing of titles like the original '95 Oshii Ghost in the Shell film, as well as Akira and most other anime adaptations of Katsuhiro Otomo's work in general).

Even Dragon Ball itself has managed it, with some of the best animated films and episodes from the series original heyday managing to look absolutely stunning in motion without sacrificing much in the way of model detail.

A couple quick examples:

Image

Image

Both of these scenes (one from the TV series, the other from a movie, both mid-90s) use some of the most detailed character models in the series and yet still feature unbelievably excellent sense of lifelike movement and incredible fluidity. Neither had to be sacrificed at the altar of the other in the process.

I'm not saying this is EASY mind you: it obviously requires much more in the way of budget and effort. But the results speak for themselves. I understand having a personal stylistic preference for less detailed models, but that isn't at all the same thing as less detailed models being some kind of outright necessity that frees up or better enables superior motion (as seems to be the suggestion in many of these kinds of posts/discussions around here): because that simply isn't the case and never has been. Certainly not in the Japanese anime industry.

Note that this isn't a knock on the new animation in the teaser trailer: I think what we've seen so far looks great. I just hope that going forward, we don't start using this as some kind of argument to justify jettisoning more detailed character modeling from this point forward as being somehow "necessary" for the movement. Nor for that matter, do I wish to see people use the "detail vs motion" issue as the main reason for what the problems with Yamamuro's animation/character-modeling style was throughout the bulk of Super (which are a lot more specific and nuanced than simply boiling it all down to the linework being too overly detailed and thus somehow getting in the way of the dynamism of motion and movement).
Budget has nothing to do with it, the amount of time and available animators do. Shintani's new models seem to aimed at being easier draw and without a whole lot of rigid rules so that animators have more wiggle room to play around with. If you look at Yamamuro Tadayoshi's character designs for the Majin Buu arc of Dragon Ball Z and compare them to that gif you posted of Gokuu and Vegeta fighting his designs are actually less detailed. It seems that for that scene (which we believe he personally key animated) he had the time or the wherewithal to go crazy with the detailed drawings. For the movies he oversaw you'll notice that he became increasingly involved in those movies and less involved with the TV series at the time, which meant he was spending all of his time working on the films during the Majin Buu arc and very little working on the TV series. Additionally, Yamamuro was heavily recruiting Toei Animation's best in-house animators associated with the franchise at the time to work on Movies #8-13 and the Tenth Anniversary Film to increasingly up the detail of the drawings. This was of course done back in an era where more animators and time were available but also meant that the majority of the focus was on drawing the characters on-model. There's very little in the way of good character acting in the 1990s Dragon Ball productions, certainly nothing like how Gokuu is bouncing up-and-down in the teaser here. The franchise's biggest weakness of the 1990s was how little in the way of good animation there was and how all of it was for the fight scenes. If my suspicion is correct Film Director Nagamine Tatsuya has seen what Pocket Monster: Sun & Moon has done--broken every rule of the industry and gotten a tremendous amount of animation for a weekly TV series--and now wants that for Dragon Ball. Nagamine's One Piece film had to have tones of details for the character models because that is how Oda Ei'ichirou wants his designs to look but Toriyama is the opposite and that makes Dragon Ball ripe for animation. The less animators have to do the more animators can do more if they want to. That was the big problem with Yamamuro Tadayoshi's designs and the big problem with Hiro'oka Toshihito's designs for Pocket Monster: XY. Now that Nakano Satoshi and Yasuda Shuuhei are in charge of the animation character designs of Pokemon their designs are so malleable that good animators are hopping onto the series in droves and messing around more than many animators have ever had a chance to with Pokemon.


Certainly, thinking about it more, I think we might actually get another Tiger Mask W with this film. I suggest checking it out on Crunchyroll, but the most recent iteration of the franchise had supremely high-quality animation and direction thanks to Character Designer & Chief Animation Supervisor Kagawa Hisashi wanting the series to be top-notch. Thanks to Kagawa being a popular animator and the schedule being really strong the series attracted a lot of talented veteran and young animators to work on the series. This led to the fights having not just good fighting but also a lot of good directing and character animation. The tail-end of the series has a lot of good shots, especially Episode #37. While all of the episodes directed by Kamatani Haruka are great #37 really felt like it focused on character movement and setting the mood.

Speaking of Koukaku Kidoutai: GHOST IN THE SHELL, that movie had a lot of good animators (i.e. the guys known for working on all the big, big movies in Japan), like Iso, Inoue, Yoshinari Kou and Okiura. Additionally, the movie actually used a very, very small number of drawings and shots. At only 85 minutes the movie only uses 683 cuts (they use the English word 'cut' to describe a 'shot'). Your average Japanese animated series is typically only allowed 300 cuts for a single 25 minute episode (400 for important episodes), so Ooishi actually used a lot of smart directing to get around his time restraints. Meanwhile, the less intelligently directed Akira ran for 124 minutes and used 2,212 cuts. Yowza. The typical Japanese animated film only uses 700-1,200 cuts. In the case of Koukaku Kidoutai, though, again, it also had a ton of the world's best working on it, so I think that really played a big factor into the quality of the animation while retaining detail.

Then again, we also have Violet Evergarden and other Kyouto Animation cartoons as of recent having insane amounts of detail.

Anyway, simpler designs are for the best. Well, designs good animators want to work with are the best. Yamamuro and his weird-ass idea of detailed designs were driving everyone off.
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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by Nero<>Akira » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:36 am

I honestly feel we have come too far to be reverting back to a saiyan arc gi. I'm not mad at all, but it's just an underlying issue i have with it. I do love Goku's now iconic Gi that he's had since the Cell arc, but it was still frustrating to see it come back after getting a new outfit in RF; the irony is I love the iconic gi more than before because of them using it in favor of the redesign AT gave LOL I honestly hope that the use of this gi is simply a statement as to say the design of the film will be a bit more classic, round looking DB and not his real gi in the film.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by kn83 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:33 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:
ErikB wrote:I'm absolutely adoring the animation in the new teaser. However, I've seen the sentiment of “they sacrificed art for animation” expressed a few times and that's frustrating me. They didn't sacrifice the art at all. The individual drawings in the teaser are vastly superior to the majority of what we've seen in Super.

More surface-level details do not make a drawing good. A poorly-structured drawing is a poorly-structured drawing no matter how much extra hatching, shading and highlights you slap onto it.

I whipped up a quick example:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
The Vegeta on the right has more detail. There are more lines on his face, ears and neck, there are more corners to get that sharp, angular look, there's even a laid out highlight in his hair, but...I'd be stunned if anybody honestly thought it was the better drawing. It's terrible. None of the placements of his features make any sense. It's flat, awkward and ugly. And it's exactly the kind of shit we've been seeing all over the franchise for the last several years.

Meanwhile the Vegeta on the left is far less detailed. It's very soft and round, and there are less lines in the facial features, the ears, neck, and even the hair...and yet it's a dramatically better drawing. It's visibly better-structured because...
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
...it actually was structured. I put significantly more time and effort into the one on the left.

And that's exactly what I'm seeing in the teaser. There's a sense of volume in the art style that we haven't had in a long time (barring the occasional episodes of Super that deliberately ignored the character models in the interest of actually looking good).
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I honestly get the impression that this is a skewed/tilted example that you're giving here.

The issue with the Vegeta on the right isn't the facial details in and of themselves; its the fact that the shape of the head itself (and other aspects like his hairline, etc) are grossly misaligned. Probably because, as you alluded to (and again correct me if I'm wrong here), you drew it more free-handed and without structuring it in advance first (as you did the one on the left). If you wanted, you COULD add a bit more extra detail (even shading) to the Vegeta on the left, and it wouldn't really lose anything for it.

I've generally thought that the "detail vs fluidity" thing is kind of a false choice and that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Plenty of anime have used more detailed character models and didn't sacrifice very much in the way of fluidity and movement going back more than 30+ years now (Yoshiaki Kawajiri for example has made an entire career out of his knack for consistently managing to balance exceedingly detailed character models with lush, smooth, and vibrant motion, to say nothing of titles like the original '95 Oshii Ghost in the Shell film, as well as Akira and most other anime adaptations of Katsuhiro Otomo's work in general).

Even Dragon Ball itself has managed it, with some of the best animated films and episodes from the series original heyday managing to look absolutely stunning in motion without sacrificing much in the way of model detail.

A couple quick examples:

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Both of these scenes (one from the TV series, the other from a movie, both mid-90s) use some of the most detailed character models in the series and yet still feature unbelievably excellent sense of lifelike movement and incredible fluidity. Neither had to be sacrificed at the altar of the other in the process.

I'm not saying this is EASY mind you: it obviously requires much more in the way of budget and effort. But the results speak for themselves. I understand having a personal stylistic preference for less detailed models, but that isn't at all the same thing as less detailed models being some kind of outright necessity that frees up or better enables superior motion (as seems to be the suggestion in many of these kinds of posts/discussions around here): because that simply isn't the case and never has been. Certainly not in the Japanese anime industry.

Note that this isn't a knock on the new animation in the teaser trailer: I think what we've seen so far looks great. I just hope that going forward, we don't start using this as some kind of argument to justify jettisoning more detailed character modeling from this point forward as being somehow "necessary" for the movement. Nor for that matter, do I wish to see people use the "detail vs motion" issue as the main reason for what the problems with Yamamuro's animation/character-modeling style was throughout the bulk of Super (which are a lot more specific and nuanced than simply boiling it all down to the linework being too overly detailed and thus somehow getting in the way of the dynamism of motion and movement).
Budget has nothing to do with it, the amount of time and available animators do. Shintani's new models seem to aimed at being easier draw and without a whole lot of rigid rules so that animators have more wiggle room to play around with. If you look at Yamamuro Tadayoshi's character designs for the Majin Buu arc of Dragon Ball Z and compare them to that gif you posted of Gokuu and Vegeta fighting his designs are actually less detailed. It seems that for that scene (which we believe he personally key animated) he had the time or the wherewithal to go crazy with the detailed drawings. For the movies he oversaw you'll notice that he became increasingly involved in those movies and less involved with the TV series at the time, which meant he was spending all of his time working on the films during the Majin Buu arc and very little working on the TV series. Additionally, Yamamuro was heavily recruiting Toei Animation's best in-house animators associated with the franchise at the time to work on Movies #8-13 and the Tenth Anniversary Film to increasingly up the detail of the drawings. This was of course done back in an era where more animators and time were available but also meant that the majority of the focus was on drawing the characters on-model. There's very little in the way of good character acting in the 1990s Dragon Ball productions, certainly nothing like how Gokuu is bouncing up-and-down in the teaser here. The franchise's biggest weakness of the 1990s was how little in the way of good animation there was and how all of it was for the fight scenes. If my suspicion is correct Film Director Nagamine Tatsuya has seen what Pocket Monster: Sun & Moon has done--broken every rule of the industry and gotten a tremendous amount of animation for a weekly TV series--and now wants that for Dragon Ball. Nagamine's One Piece film had to have tones of details for the character models because that is how Oda Ei'ichirou wants his designs to look but Toriyama is the opposite and that makes Dragon Ball ripe for animation. The less animators have to do the more animators can do more if they want to. That was the big problem with Yamamuro Tadayoshi's designs and the big problem with Hiro'oka Toshihito's designs for Pocket Monster: XY. Now that Nakano Satoshi and Yasuda Shuuhei are in charge of the animation character designs of Pokemon their designs are so malleable that good animators are hopping onto the series in droves and messing around more than many animators have ever had a chance to with Pokemon.


Certainly, thinking about it more, I think we might actually get another Tiger Mask W with this film. I suggest checking it out on Crunchyroll, but the most recent iteration of the franchise had supremely high-quality animation and direction thanks to Character Designer & Chief Animation Supervisor Kagawa Hisashi wanting the series to be top-notch. Thanks to Kagawa being a popular animator and the schedule being really strong the series attracted a lot of talented veteran and young animators to work on the series. This led to the fights having not just good fighting but also a lot of good directing and character animation. The tail-end of the series has a lot of good shots, especially Episode #37. While all of the episodes directed by Kamatani Haruka are great #37 really felt like it focused on character movement and setting the mood.

Speaking of Koukaku Kidoutai: GHOST IN THE SHELL, that movie had a lot of good animators (i.e. the guys known for working on all the big, big movies in Japan), like Iso, Inoue, Yoshinari Kou and Okiura. Additionally, the movie actually used a very, very small number of drawings and shots. At only 85 minutes the movie only uses 683 cuts (they use the English word 'cut' to describe a 'shot'). Your average Japanese animated series is typically only allowed 300 cuts for a single 25 minute episode (400 for important episodes), so Ooishi actually used a lot of smart directing to get around his time restraints. Meanwhile, the less intelligently directed Akira ran for 124 minutes and used 2,212 cuts. Yowza. The typical Japanese animated film only uses 700-1,200 cuts. In the case of Koukaku Kidoutai, though, again, it also had a ton of the world's best working on it, so I think that really played a big factor into the quality of the animation while retaining detail.

Then again, we also have Violet Evergarden and other Kyouto Animation cartoons as of recent having insane amounts of detail.

Anyway, simpler designs are for the best. Well, designs good animators want to work with are the best. Yamamuro and his weird-ass idea of detailed designs were driving everyone off.
You completely missed his point. Ask yourself honestly, which art/character design looks more aesthetically pleasing, the Buu saga/Fusion reborn era art or the art style of the teaser? I'm pretty sure most (regardless of animation issues) would prefer the Buu arc look (which is why fans love Yuya Takahashi), as many don't wanna see DB look more cartoon-y.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by Metalwario64 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:44 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:*snip*

A couple quick examples:

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*snip*
I'll always love those Yamamuro cuts of Majin Vegeta vs Goku. I'm mostly sick of Yamamuro's current bad art with too much shading.

Even as much as I love Buu-arc Yamamuro, his art still leaned on the side of realism, without much in the way of exaggerated movements. Back during the Maeda era, you'd have animators at Studio Junio putting out works with more exaggeration and body movement:
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I love how we're back to that aspect as well.
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