Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by RedHeat » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:55 am

kn83 wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I honestly get the impression that this is a skewed/tilted example that you're giving here.

The issue with the Vegeta on the right isn't the facial details in and of themselves; its the fact that the shape of the head itself (and other aspects like his hairline, etc) are grossly misaligned. Probably because, as you alluded to (and again correct me if I'm wrong here), you drew it more free-handed and without structuring it in advance first (as you did the one on the left). If you wanted, you COULD add a bit more extra detail (even shading) to the Vegeta on the left, and it wouldn't really lose anything for it.

I've generally thought that the "detail vs fluidity" thing is kind of a false choice and that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Plenty of anime have used more detailed character models and didn't sacrifice very much in the way of fluidity and movement going back more than 30+ years now (Yoshiaki Kawajiri for example has made an entire career out of his knack for consistently managing to balance exceedingly detailed character models with lush, smooth, and vibrant motion, to say nothing of titles like the original '95 Oshii Ghost in the Shell film, as well as Akira and most other anime adaptations of Katsuhiro Oto.
You completely missed his point. Ask yourself honestly, which art/character design looks more aesthetically pleasing, the Buu saga/Fusion reborn era art or the art style of the teaser? I'm pretty sure most (regardless of animation issues) would prefer the Buu arc look (which is why fans love Yuya Takahashi), as many don't wanna see DB look more cartoon-y.
On most social media platforms almost everyone is loving this new art style. Burden of proof, yada yada yada.
Feels over Reals.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by Sin » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:02 pm

Nero<>Akira wrote:I honestly feel we have come too far to be reverting back to a saiyan arc gi. I'm not mad at all, but it's just an underlying issue i have with it. I do love Goku's now iconic Gi that he's had since the Cell arc, but it was still frustrating to see it come back after getting a new outfit in RF; the irony is I love the iconic gi more than before because of them using it in favor of the redesign AT gave LOL I honestly hope that the use of this gi is simply a statement as to say the design of the film will be a bit more classic, round looking DB and not his real gi in the film.
The initial teaser for RoF had Goku in his classic gi too so I wouldn't give it too much though. I'm sure we will see Goku in a new outfit if only for the merchandise/video game pros of having a new outfit.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by Cursemark505 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:05 pm

kn83 wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I honestly get the impression that this is a skewed/tilted example that you're giving here.

The issue with the Vegeta on the right isn't the facial details in and of themselves; its the fact that the shape of the head itself (and other aspects like his hairline, etc) are grossly misaligned. Probably because, as you alluded to (and again correct me if I'm wrong here), you drew it more free-handed and without structuring it in advance first (as you did the one on the left). If you wanted, you COULD add a bit more extra detail (even shading) to the Vegeta on the left, and it wouldn't really lose anything for it.

I've generally thought that the "detail vs fluidity" thing is kind of a false choice and that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Plenty of anime have used more detailed character models and didn't sacrifice very much in the way of fluidity and movement going back more than 30+ years now (Yoshiaki Kawajiri for example has made an entire career out of his knack for consistently managing to balance exceedingly detailed character models with lush, smooth, and vibrant motion, to say nothing of titles like the original '95 Oshii Ghost in the Shell film, as well as Akira and most other anime adaptations of Katsuhiro Otomo's work in general).

Even Dragon Ball itself has managed it, with some of the best animated films and episodes from the series original heyday managing to look absolutely stunning in motion without sacrificing much in the way of model detail.

A couple quick examples:

Image

Image

Both of these scenes (one from the TV series, the other from a movie, both mid-90s) use some of the most detailed character models in the series and yet still feature unbelievably excellent sense of lifelike movement and incredible fluidity. Neither had to be sacrificed at the altar of the other in the process.

I'm not saying this is EASY mind you: it obviously requires much more in the way of budget and effort. But the results speak for themselves. I understand having a personal stylistic preference for less detailed models, but that isn't at all the same thing as less detailed models being some kind of outright necessity that frees up or better enables superior motion (as seems to be the suggestion in many of these kinds of posts/discussions around here): because that simply isn't the case and never has been. Certainly not in the Japanese anime industry.

Note that this isn't a knock on the new animation in the teaser trailer: I think what we've seen so far looks great. I just hope that going forward, we don't start using this as some kind of argument to justify jettisoning more detailed character modeling from this point forward as being somehow "necessary" for the movement. Nor for that matter, do I wish to see people use the "detail vs motion" issue as the main reason for what the problems with Yamamuro's animation/character-modeling style was throughout the bulk of Super (which are a lot more specific and nuanced than simply boiling it all down to the linework being too overly detailed and thus somehow getting in the way of the dynamism of motion and movement).
Budget has nothing to do with it, the amount of time and available animators do. Shintani's new models seem to aimed at being easier draw and without a whole lot of rigid rules so that animators have more wiggle room to play around with. If you look at Yamamuro Tadayoshi's character designs for the Majin Buu arc of Dragon Ball Z and compare them to that gif you posted of Gokuu and Vegeta fighting his designs are actually less detailed. It seems that for that scene (which we believe he personally key animated) he had the time or the wherewithal to go crazy with the detailed drawings. For the movies he oversaw you'll notice that he became increasingly involved in those movies and less involved with the TV series at the time, which meant he was spending all of his time working on the films during the Majin Buu arc and very little working on the TV series. Additionally, Yamamuro was heavily recruiting Toei Animation's best in-house animators associated with the franchise at the time to work on Movies #8-13 and the Tenth Anniversary Film to increasingly up the detail of the drawings. This was of course done back in an era where more animators and time were available but also meant that the majority of the focus was on drawing the characters on-model. There's very little in the way of good character acting in the 1990s Dragon Ball productions, certainly nothing like how Gokuu is bouncing up-and-down in the teaser here. The franchise's biggest weakness of the 1990s was how little in the way of good animation there was and how all of it was for the fight scenes. If my suspicion is correct Film Director Nagamine Tatsuya has seen what Pocket Monster: Sun & Moon has done--broken every rule of the industry and gotten a tremendous amount of animation for a weekly TV series--and now wants that for Dragon Ball. Nagamine's One Piece film had to have tones of details for the character models because that is how Oda Ei'ichirou wants his designs to look but Toriyama is the opposite and that makes Dragon Ball ripe for animation. The less animators have to do the more animators can do more if they want to. That was the big problem with Yamamuro Tadayoshi's designs and the big problem with Hiro'oka Toshihito's designs for Pocket Monster: XY. Now that Nakano Satoshi and Yasuda Shuuhei are in charge of the animation character designs of Pokemon their designs are so malleable that good animators are hopping onto the series in droves and messing around more than many animators have ever had a chance to with Pokemon.


Certainly, thinking about it more, I think we might actually get another Tiger Mask W with this film. I suggest checking it out on Crunchyroll, but the most recent iteration of the franchise had supremely high-quality animation and direction thanks to Character Designer & Chief Animation Supervisor Kagawa Hisashi wanting the series to be top-notch. Thanks to Kagawa being a popular animator and the schedule being really strong the series attracted a lot of talented veteran and young animators to work on the series. This led to the fights having not just good fighting but also a lot of good directing and character animation. The tail-end of the series has a lot of good shots, especially Episode #37. While all of the episodes directed by Kamatani Haruka are great #37 really felt like it focused on character movement and setting the mood.

Speaking of Koukaku Kidoutai: GHOST IN THE SHELL, that movie had a lot of good animators (i.e. the guys known for working on all the big, big movies in Japan), like Iso, Inoue, Yoshinari Kou and Okiura. Additionally, the movie actually used a very, very small number of drawings and shots. At only 85 minutes the movie only uses 683 cuts (they use the English word 'cut' to describe a 'shot'). Your average Japanese animated series is typically only allowed 300 cuts for a single 25 minute episode (400 for important episodes), so Ooishi actually used a lot of smart directing to get around his time restraints. Meanwhile, the less intelligently directed Akira ran for 124 minutes and used 2,212 cuts. Yowza. The typical Japanese animated film only uses 700-1,200 cuts. In the case of Koukaku Kidoutai, though, again, it also had a ton of the world's best working on it, so I think that really played a big factor into the quality of the animation while retaining detail.

Then again, we also have Violet Evergarden and other Kyouto Animation cartoons as of recent having insane amounts of detail.

Anyway, simpler designs are for the best. Well, designs good animators want to work with are the best. Yamamuro and his weird-ass idea of detailed designs were driving everyone off.
You completely missed his point. Ask yourself honestly, which art/character design looks more aesthetically pleasing, the Buu saga/Fusion reborn era art or the art style of the teaser? I'm pretty sure most (regardless of animation issues) would prefer the Buu arc look (which is why fans love Yuya Takahashi), as many don't wanna see DB look more cartoon-y.
Many people find the new art style more aesthetically pleasing. The design hardly looks more "cartoony" than the pre or beginning of Z. Dragon ball was very cartoony & exaggerated during those times.

The reception of Shintani's design has been positive for the most part. The only people making a big deal out of it are those suffering from stockholm syndrome. How did you guys make it to the Boo Saga era if Dragon ball's original simple & cartoony style bothered you so much?

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by kn83 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:11 pm

Cursemark505 wrote:
kn83 wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
Budget has nothing to do with it, the amount of time and available animators do. Shintani's new models seem to aimed at being easier draw and without a whole lot of rigid rules so that animators have more wiggle room to play around with. If you look at Yamamuro Tadayoshi's character designs for the Majin Buu arc of Dragon Ball Z and compare them to that gif you posted of Gokuu and Vegeta fighting his designs are actually less detailed. It seems that for that scene (which we believe he personally key animated) he had the time or the wherewithal to go crazy with the detailed drawings. For the movies he oversaw you'll notice that he became increasingly involved in those movies and less involved with the TV series at the time, which meant he was spending all of his time working on the films during the Majin Buu arc and very little working on the TV series. Additionally, Yamamuro was heavily recruiting Toei Animation's best in-house animators associated with the franchise at the time to work on Movies #8-13 and the Tenth Anniversary Film to increasingly up the detail of the drawings. This was of course done back in an era where more animators and time were available but also meant that the majority of the focus was on drawing the characters on-model. There's very little in the way of good character acting in the 1990s Dragon Ball productions, certainly nothing like how Gokuu is bouncing up-and-down in the teaser here. The franchise's biggest weakness of the 1990s was how little in the way of good animation there was and how all of it was for the fight scenes. If my suspicion is correct Film Director Nagamine Tatsuya has seen what Pocket Monster: Sun & Moon has done--broken every rule of the industry and gotten a tremendous amount of animation for a weekly TV series--and now wants that for Dragon Ball. Nagamine's One Piece film had to have tones of details for the character models because that is how Oda Ei'ichirou wants his designs to look but Toriyama is the opposite and that makes Dragon Ball ripe for animation. The less animators have to do the more animators can do more if they want to. That was the big problem with Yamamuro Tadayoshi's designs and the big problem with Hiro'oka Toshihito's designs for Pocket Monster: XY. Now that Nakano Satoshi and Yasuda Shuuhei are in charge of the animation character designs of Pokemon their designs are so malleable that good animators are hopping onto the series in droves and messing around more than many animators have ever had a chance to with Pokemon.


Certainly, thinking about it more, I think we might actually get another Tiger Mask W with this film. I suggest checking it out on Crunchyroll, but the most recent iteration of the franchise had supremely high-quality animation and direction thanks to Character Designer & Chief Animation Supervisor Kagawa Hisashi wanting the series to be top-notch. Thanks to Kagawa being a popular animator and the schedule being really strong the series attracted a lot of talented veteran and young animators to work on the series. This led to the fights having not just good fighting but also a lot of good directing and character animation. The tail-end of the series has a lot of good shots, especially Episode #37. While all of the episodes directed by Kamatani Haruka are great #37 really felt like it focused on character movement and setting the mood.

Speaking of Koukaku Kidoutai: GHOST IN THE SHELL, that movie had a lot of good animators (i.e. the guys known for working on all the big, big movies in Japan), like Iso, Inoue, Yoshinari Kou and Okiura. Additionally, the movie actually used a very, very small number of drawings and shots. At only 85 minutes the movie only uses 683 cuts (they use the English word 'cut' to describe a 'shot'). Your average Japanese animated series is typically only allowed 300 cuts for a single 25 minute episode (400 for important episodes), so Ooishi actually used a lot of smart directing to get around his time restraints. Meanwhile, the less intelligently directed Akira ran for 124 minutes and used 2,212 cuts. Yowza. The typical Japanese animated film only uses 700-1,200 cuts. In the case of Koukaku Kidoutai, though, again, it also had a ton of the world's best working on it, so I think that really played a big factor into the quality of the animation while retaining detail.

Then again, we also have Violet Evergarden and other Kyouto Animation cartoons as of recent having insane amounts of detail.

Anyway, simpler designs are for the best. Well, designs good animators want to work with are the best. Yamamuro and his weird-ass idea of detailed designs were driving everyone off.
You completely missed his point. Ask yourself honestly, which art/character design looks more aesthetically pleasing, the Buu saga/Fusion reborn era art or the art style of the teaser? I'm pretty sure most (regardless of animation issues) would prefer the Buu arc look (which is why fans love Yuya Takahashi), as many don't wanna see DB look more cartoon-y.
Many people find the new art style more aesthetically pleasing. The design hardly looks more "cartoony" than the pre or beginning of Z. Dragon ball was very cartoony & exaggerated during those times.

The reception of Shintani's design has been positive for the most part. The only people making a big deal out of it are those suffering from stockholm syndrome. How did you guys make it to the Boo Saga era if Dragon ball's original simple & cartoony style bothered you so much?
Because it didn't start out that way and only became more detailed overtime. If the series started out with Buu-arc style art then shifted to the style of the teaser, then much more people would be displeased. And enough with the "stockholm syndrome" strawman, no one likes current Yamamuro.
Last edited by kn83 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:13 pm

The way I see it, if we could have solid art designs AND amazingly fluid animation, we'd all prefer that.

Unfortunately, the industry doesn't work on that kind of idealism unless some major liberties are taken with regards to how a production is managed.

Also, people, put those HUGE images, gifs, and videos into spoiler tags, please! One or two are okay, but that's about it. This is especially egregious when people quote said posts; put the images/gifs/videos into spoilers if you're gonna quote someone.
Last edited by PerhapsTheOtherOne on Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by kn83 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:13 pm

RedHeat wrote:
kn83 wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
You completely missed his point. Ask yourself honestly, which art/character design looks more aesthetically pleasing, the Buu saga/Fusion reborn era art or the art style of the teaser? I'm pretty sure most (regardless of animation issues) would prefer the Buu arc look (which is why fans love Yuya Takahashi), as many don't wanna see DB look more cartoon-y.
On most social media platforms almost everyone is loving this new art style. Burden of proof, yada yada yada.
"Almost everyone" is pure hyperbole. If you go on the same social media platforms then you would see almost as many disliking the art style (not the animation).

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:15 pm

sangofe wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:Will Sumitomo return to do the score or will they get someone else just for this movie?

Imagine someone like Yuki Hayashi doing the soundtrack. That would make me go insane. He did the music for One Piece FIlm: Gold so it's a possibility.
I sure hope so! There ain’t no great dragon ball product without Sumitomo!
Is that sarcasm?
No i don’t see why i should opt to use sarcasm..
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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by kn83 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:20 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:The way I see it, if we could have solid art designs AND amazingly fluid animation, we'd all prefer that.

Unfortunately, the industry doesn't work on that kind of idealism unless some major liberties are taken with regards to how a production is managed.

Also, people, put those HUGE images, gifs, and videos into spoiler tags, please! One or two are okay, but that's about it. This is especially egregious when people quote said posts; put the images/gifs/videos into spoilers if you're gonna quote someone.
Exactly. People are acting like you can't have both when in reality there are many examples of anime movies, OVAs and sometimes even TV series from both the 90s and the 2010s with both.

If you take Takahashi's art style but reduce the level of detail a bit then that would perfect for modern DB, especially for a major film.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:23 pm

kn83 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:The way I see it, if we could have solid art designs AND amazingly fluid animation, we'd all prefer that.

Unfortunately, the industry doesn't work on that kind of idealism unless some major liberties are taken with regards to how a production is managed.

Also, people, put those HUGE images, gifs, and videos into spoiler tags, please! One or two are okay, but that's about it. This is especially egregious when people quote said posts; put the images/gifs/videos into spoilers if you're gonna quote someone.
Exactly. People are acting like you can't have both when in reality there are many examples of anime movies, OVAs and sometimes even TV series from both the 90s and the 2010s with both.

If you take Takahashi's art style but reduce the level of detail a bit then that would perfect for modern DB, especially for a major film.
Of course, it's not an easy task to accomplish.

These kinds of super-high quality productions require cutting down on the actual content being pushed out, finding loopholes and fixes to allow for more content, and/or to have long stretches of time between product releases.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by RedHeat » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:31 pm

kn83 wrote:
RedHeat wrote:
kn83 wrote:
On most social media platforms almost everyone is loving this new art style. Burden of proof, yada yada yada.
"Almost everyone" is pure hyperbole. If you go on the same social media platforms then you would see almost as many disliking the art style (not the animation).
Of course it's pure hyperbole. But I've been reading responses for the past day and and general consensus is largely positive. A good portrion that don't like the art style are given arguments on why it's good (such as Ajay's video) and they flip like a coin.
Feels over Reals.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by ZeroNeonix » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:33 pm

I prefer the art style of late Z, but I'm willing to give this new style a chance. I don't hate the new style. It's just not what I'm used to. If Super comes back with the new art style, I'll be a little disappointed, but it wouldn't ruin the show for me.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:36 pm

Geraldix wrote:Hear me out boys, the plot will go like this:

> Whis tells Goku about the legend of Yamoshi, the original super saiyan god, who lived thousands of years ago

> Goku says it is a pity he can't fight such an interesting guy. Whis says he could arrange that by sending Goku to the past, with the condition that he won't do anything that can change the past, or grave consequences will occur

> Goku agrees and Whis send him to Yamoshi's timeline/planet Salad

> Goku soon finds Yamoshi. They fight and it is at this moment that Yamoshi turns into SSJG for the first time, under Goku's tutelage.

> Goku is just having fun and could, of course, easily defeat Yamoshi with SSJBlue or Ultra Instinct, but he fears that would alter history, so he decides to stop their match

> Goku's rule-breaking time travel did not go unnoticed, and someone soon appears to check on this time-traveling delinquent: it's Whis and the God of Destruction of this age, Beerus' predecessor!

> Despite Goku's plights, Whis can't recognize him because, of course, he has never seen Goku before. He does, tho, starts to suspect of what is really happening

> Beerus's predecessor wants to erase Goku for his crimes. Goku proposes a duel: if he looses, he will be erased. Should the fight end his way or in a draw, he is free to go, and Whis from the past will help him going back to his timeline/Earth

> Goku totally kicks the God of Destruction's ass with Ultra Instinct. Whis sends him home

> The GoD tells Whis that maybe he is starting to get too old for this job, getting beaten like this by a mortal. Maybe he should start looking for someone to train and succeed him.

> Back to present Earth, Goku tells Whis of everything that happened, to which Whis replies he already knew all of that, since he was there! Whis intentionally sent Goku to the past to complete a temporal paradox where Goku is responsible for both the first appearance of the legendary Super Saiyan God and the start of Beerus journey as the new GoD

> Yamoshi, who just watched the fight between Goku and the GoD, promises himself to train even harder, so that the saiyan race will someday get strong like this guys (he doesn't realize Goku is also a saiyan due to Goku's missing tail)

> THE END

If at least 75% of this turns out to be true, you guys will all own me a beer!
not gonna happen.


1) Whis never even knew about the SSG legend so he wouldn't know of Yamoshi

2) He doesn't have the power to send anyone that far back in time

3) Mortals time traveling is against the rules
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:51 pm

How is it people STILL confuse Yamoshi the first Super Saiyan with the unnamed first SSG?

They're NOT the same person!

Yamoshi was never the first SSG. He was the reason the first one was possible.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by ErikB » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:16 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I honestly get the impression that this is a skewed/tilted example that you're giving here.

The issue with the Vegeta on the right isn't the facial details in and of themselves; its the fact that the shape of the head itself (and other aspects like his hairline, etc) are grossly misaligned. Probably because, as you alluded to (and again correct me if I'm wrong here), you drew it more free-handed and without structuring it in advance first (as you did the one on the left). If you wanted, you COULD add a bit more extra detail (even shading) to the Vegeta on the left, and it wouldn't really lose anything for it.

I've generally thought that the "detail vs fluidity" thing is kind of a false choice and that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Plenty of anime have used more detailed character models and didn't sacrifice very much in the way of fluidity and movement going back more than 30+ years now (Yoshiaki Kawajiri for example has made an entire career out of his knack for consistently managing to balance exceedingly detailed character models with lush, smooth, and vibrant motion, to say nothing of titles like the original '95 Oshii Ghost in the Shell film, as well as Akira and most other anime adaptations of Katsuhiro Otomo's work in general).

Even Dragon Ball itself has managed it, with some of the best animated films and episodes from the series original heyday managing to look absolutely stunning in motion without sacrificing much in the way of model detail.

A couple quick examples:


Both of these scenes (one from the TV series, the other from a movie, both mid-90s) use some of the most detailed character models in the series and yet still feature unbelievably excellent sense of lifelike movement and incredible fluidity. Neither had to be sacrificed at the altar of the other in the process.

I'm not saying this is EASY mind you: it obviously requires much more in the way of budget and effort. But the results speak for themselves. I understand having a personal stylistic preference for less detailed models, but that isn't at all the same thing as less detailed models being some kind of outright necessity that frees up or better enables superior motion (as seems to be the suggestion in many of these kinds of posts/discussions around here): because that simply isn't the case and never has been. Certainly not in the Japanese anime industry.

Note that this isn't a knock on the new animation in the teaser trailer: I think what we've seen so far looks great. I just hope that going forward, we don't start using this as some kind of argument to justify jettisoning more detailed character modeling from this point forward as being somehow "necessary" for the movement. Nor for that matter, do I wish to see people use the "detail vs motion" issue as the main reason for what the problems with Yamamuro's animation/character-modeling style was throughout the bulk of Super (which are a lot more specific and nuanced than simply boiling it all down to the linework being too overly detailed and thus somehow getting in the way of the dynamism of motion and movement).
I wouldn't say you're wrong, but I can probably elaborate a bit. And, in the first place, I really did make that post just because I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder over at least 3 separate instances I encountered (here, reddit and Twitter) where people said that the art was "worse/bad" to make the animation better, and, like I was saying, it really wasn't bad. The drawings are quite good.

Anyway...you're also not wrong that we've seen our fair handful of fluid animation with lots of detail in it. But consider how few and far between those scenes really are in the grand scheme of things. Like, yeah, that Yamamuro cut in Goku VS Majin Vegeta is wonderful. It's also in a show where the vast majority of the footage is stills, camera pans, 2-frame staggers, or lip-flaps. An entire episode that looks like that one cut, or hell an entire show, produced in even a remotely similar timeframe would be a tremendously unreasonable expectation.

On the other side of the world, this is how Disney operates. The constant, flowing, "full" animation seen in a hand-drawn feature of there's is only possible because of the simplicity of their character designs.

Now, if the new Dragon Ball Super movie comes out and it, just like the TV series before it, is also made up of largely stills, pans, etc. then you'll be able to make a strong argument for what you're saying. As for now, I'm hopeful that won't be the case.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by STH » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:30 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:How is it people STILL confuse Yamoshi the first Super Saiyan with the unnamed first SSG?

They're NOT the same person!

Yamoshi was never the first SSG. He was the reason the first one was possible.
They are the same person.
However, according to the last interview, SSJ God form never appeared in the past.

Q: Was the “legendary Super Saiyan” Freeza feared the Super Saiyan God that appeared in Battle of Gods?

A: In a certain sense, they are the same person. That is to say, very long ago, before Planet Vegeta was the Saiyans’ planet, there was a man named Yamoshi who had a righteous heart despite being a Saiyan. He and his five comrades started a rebellion, but he was cornered by combatants and became a Super Saiyan for the first time, though his transformation and fearsome fighting style shocked the other Saiyans. Outnumbered, Yamoshi eventually wore himself out and was defeated, but this was only the beginning of his legend. Afterwards, Yamoshi’s spirit wandered in continuous search of six righteous-hearted Saiyans, seeking a new savior: Super Saiyan God.

[Tori-bot] “And that’s why there’s that ceremony to become Super Saiyan God.”


Q: And why did Beerus search for Super Saiyan God?

A: Beerus probably picked up on information about Yamoshi’s spirit in his prophetic dream. The fact that this is recorded in the Namekian book of legends is likewise because the Namekian elder who wrote it sympathized with Yamoshi’s spirit.)
Last edited by STH on Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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JulieYBM
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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:35 pm

Detailed designs don't mean 'good'. Takahashi can pull it off, but that's Takahashi. I'm always for letting animmators draw how they like so long as it is good. Shintani's designs are good because you can play with them, adding or removing lines as you like.

Yotsuba has 'simple' designs but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone as capable of drawing them well as Azuma.
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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:13 pm

STH wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:How is it people STILL confuse Yamoshi the first Super Saiyan with the unnamed first SSG?

They're NOT the same person!

Yamoshi was never the first SSG. He was the reason the first one was possible.
They are the same person.
However, according to the last interview, SSJ God form never appeared in the past.

Q: Was the “legendary Super Saiyan” Freeza feared the Super Saiyan God that appeared in Battle of Gods?

A: In a certain sense, they are the same person. That is to say, very long ago, before Planet Vegeta was the Saiyans’ planet, there was a man named Yamoshi who had a righteous heart despite being a Saiyan. He and his five comrades started a rebellion, but he was cornered by combatants and became a Super Saiyan for the first time, though his transformation and fearsome fighting style shocked the other Saiyans. Outnumbered, Yamoshi eventually wore himself out and was defeated, but this was only the beginning of his legend. Afterwards, Yamoshi’s spirit wandered in continuous search of six righteous-hearted Saiyans, seeking a new savior: Super Saiyan God.

[Tori-bot] “And that’s why there’s that ceremony to become Super Saiyan God.”


Q: And why did Beerus search for Super Saiyan God?

A: Beerus probably picked up on information about Yamoshi’s spirit in his prophetic dream. The fact that this is recorded in the Namekian book of legends is likewise because the Namekian elder who wrote it sympathized with Yamoshi’s spirit.)
Yeah, people interpret that wrong in their assumption on Yamoshi becoming a SSG. People need to get their contextual analysis straight.

Yamoshi was DEFINITELY the Legendary Super Saiyan, potentially the first Super Saiyan ever. Notice that the interviewer asked about the SSG that was mentioned in the movie, meaning that Toriyama was addressing that particular individual's relation to the Legendary Super Saiyan. Also notice that he said that Yamoshi's spirit wandering in search of six righteous Saiyans is why there's a ritual to become a SSG. And what does the ritual do? It turns one of said six pure-hearted Saiyans into a SSG, not that Yamoshi himself becomes one. Otherwise, it'd always be SSG Yamoshi, not SSG Whoever and SSG Goku.

Yamoshi died, his spirit wanders and gets picked up on by Beerus and the Namekians, and his wandering ultimately allows Saiyans to become Super Saiyan Gods.

====

To bring this entirely back on topic, I have a feeling that Yamoshi's role in the story of the Saiyans will be mentioned and/or heavily involved in the movie. Toriyama didn't seem to have simply thought it up on the spot when he was asked.

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:15 pm

STH wrote:They are the same person.
However, according to the last interview, SSJ God form never appeared in the past.

Q: Was the “legendary Super Saiyan” Freeza feared the Super Saiyan God that appeared in Battle of Gods?

A: In a certain sense, they are the same person. That is to say, very long ago, before Planet Vegeta was the Saiyans’ planet, there was a man named Yamoshi who had a righteous heart despite being a Saiyan. He and his five comrades started a rebellion, but he was cornered by combatants and became a Super Saiyan for the first time, though his transformation and fearsome fighting style shocked the other Saiyans. Outnumbered, Yamoshi eventually wore himself out and was defeated, but this was only the beginning of his legend. Afterwards, Yamoshi’s spirit wandered in continuous search of six righteous-hearted Saiyans, seeking a new savior: Super Saiyan God.

[Tori-bot] “And that’s why there’s that ceremony to become Super Saiyan God.”
Now all you need to do is to watch Movie 14, you'll learn that Yamoshi's spirit did find a Saiyan and he became Super Saiyan God in planet Vegeta, home to the Saiyans by that time.
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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:25 pm

I like the new style design , less muscle , more round fluid ... and also some comments saying that it makes animation better and somehow easier , that’s good for the future if is true .
Gokus warming up movements are so relaxing , floating like less gravity, looks good
As far as the content , it was said by A.T reciently:
“ with content that will give a little better understanding about Freeza and the saiyans”
Hope that freeza content doesn’t involve freeza himself , to much of freeza lately , if we consider that last movie was about his resurrection and death , and right now he seems to be close to resurrect again .....
One thing looks clear to me , if that comment by A.T is truth , time traveling is gonna be involved , or the resurrection of somebody from the past or extinguished universes coming back and containing saiyans ... there’s lots of possibilities , but overall I’m happy if the movie make us understand better past things of the protagonists race of dragon ball
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Official "DB (Super) 2018 Movie" Discussion Thread

Post by t0ffe3m4n » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:39 pm

Literally seconds into the teaser I thought to myself 'this looks like One Piece Movie 6' and, lo and behold, both the art director and animation supervisor have worked on One Piece stuff. I have to admit that it brought me out of it a little bit.

That being said - I feel like, whilst this art style is going to have to grow on me, I'm pretty confident that it will anyway.

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