Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by emperior » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:37 pm

Considering how much they are keeping of the first Broly movie, it wouldn’t surprise me if he suffered the same fate of being stabbed as a baby for his abnormal power level. I actually liked that part so I would be happy if it is kept.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:39 pm

Zelvin wrote:The theory that Paragus was experimenting on Saiyans to make them stronger doesn't make sense. Because if he'd succeeded, King Vegeta would've had it used on his sons would've moved all research, as well as a batch of Saiyan infants, to a hidden research facility to hide them away from Freeza. Since they were all afraid that Freeza would one day exterminate them.

So no, the gene-enhancement theory is just bollocks. Saiyans only get tested to discern what degree of potential they have, so they can be categorized into class. There is no indication that they even had the technology to perform genetic research. Because if they did, they'd have had to have gotten it from Freeza's Army. And Freeza would know if they requested such materials. And would've told them no. And probably killed anyone who was involved.

That doesn't kill the theory Paragus is handling on his own, he might be building an army in all secrecy, without Freezas or other's knowledge.
Maybe he was an outcast of Saiyan society and wasn't friends at all with King Vegeta, only to join forces with Freeza later on, when planet Vegeta was destroyed.
Broly however may somehow have escaped planet Vegetas destruction.

This is just a theory and far from proven, but i think it's more original and intresting than the classic Paragus / Broly father-son-connection.
Broly might be strong from birth, exceptionally strong, but being as strong as SSJG in his fake SSJ-form, makes it feasible to believe he might have gotten some artificial enhancement.

But: Broly could have been so strong from birth. Paragus might just have found him after he was casted out of the Saiyan society, discovered his power level and used him for his benefices.
Last edited by Mister_Popo on Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by BrolyKale » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:46 pm

emperior wrote:Considering how much they are keeping of the first Broly movie, it wouldn’t surprise me if he suffered the same fate of being stabbed as a baby for his abnormal power level. I actually liked that part so I would be happy if it is kept.
Me too! That part was actually pretty sad...
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:56 pm

What if.... All 3 Goku, Vegeta and Broly were modified Saiyan babies? Think about it, Vegeta was a baby from the highest ranks, Goku was a low class baby, and presumably Broly being in the middle. So they have a set to experiment on... Toriyama talked about all 3 having destiny, perhaps they were modified for specific reasons?

Anyway it will be fun to look back on these speculations and be like "wow we were completely off there :lol:".

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:08 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:What if.... All 3 Goku, Vegeta and Broly were modified Saiyan babies? Think about it, Vegeta was a baby from the highest ranks, Goku was a low class baby, and presumably Broly being in the middle. So they have a set to experiment on... Toriyama talked about all 3 having destiny, perhaps they were modified for specific reasons?

Anyway it will be fun to look back on these speculations and be like "wow we were completely off there :lol:".
We could be far from bullseye. But i do think harmless speculation is fun. :wink: :crazy:
I have thought of that as well. There probably is some connection between Goku / Vegeta / Broly, for the puzzle to fall on its place and tie their destinies together.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:14 pm

Zelvin wrote:The theory that Paragus was experimenting on Saiyans to make them stronger doesn't make sense. Because if he'd succeeded, King Vegeta would've had it used on his sons would've moved all research, as well as a batch of Saiyan infants, to a hidden research facility to hide them away from Freeza. Since they were all afraid that Freeza would one day exterminate them.

So no, the gene-enhancement theory is just bollocks. Saiyans only get tested to discern what degree of potential they have, so they can be categorized into class. There is no indication that they even had the technology to perform genetic research. Because if they did, they'd have had to have gotten it from Freeza's Army. And Freeza would know if they requested such materials. And would've told them no. And probably killed anyone who was involved.
Assuming the research was completed before King Vegeta had children, who's to say Vegeta wasn't subjected to this experimentation? After all, he is a Super Saiyan, so maybe he got his S-Cells from Paragus. As for the research being secret from Frieza, maybe it was. Maybe Paragus' lab was hidden on some planet not under Frieza's control. Later, Frieza discovers Paragus and decides to recruit him and Broly in his army, attempting to use the latter to kill Goku.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Cetra » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:17 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:What if.... All 3 Goku, Vegeta and Broly were modified Saiyan babies? Think about it, Vegeta was a baby from the highest ranks, Goku was a low class baby, and presumably Broly being in the middle. So they have a set to experiment on... Toriyama talked about all 3 having destiny, perhaps they were modified for specific reasons?

Anyway it will be fun to look back on these speculations and be like "wow we were completely off there :lol:".
That would piss off a lot of fans if Goku and Vegeta were experiments.


So this will probably be true.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
I personally not a fan of all this legendary nonsense would be happy if it were dropped completely.
"Random Guy Broly with special transformation" takes away so much from him though.
Last edited by Cetra on Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by BobZ » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:17 pm

I'm so hyped for this movie! Does anyone know if there's been any news for an international release apart from the US? Europe? UK? Anything? I'm desperate to see this in theaters, but can't travel all the way to the States from Eastern Europe sadly! :(

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Zelvin » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:23 pm

Mister_Popo wrote: That doesn't kill the theory Paragus is handling on his own, he might be building an army in all secrecy, without Freezas or other's knowledge.
Maybe he was an outcast of Saiyan society and wasn't friends at all with King Vegeta, only to join forces with Freeza later on, when planet Vegeta was destroyed.
Broly however may somehow have escaped planet Vegetas destruction.

This is just a theory and far from proven, but i think it's more original and intresting than the classic Paragus / Broly father-son-connection.
Broly might be strong from birth, exceptionally strong, but being as strong as SSJG in his fake SSJ-form, makes it feasible to believe he might have gotten some artificial enhancement.

But: Broly could have been so strong from birth. Paragus might just have found him after he was casted out of the Saiyan society, discovered his power level and used him for his benefices.
Except it does kill the theory. Saiyans did not advance technologically. All their tech came from Freeza in return for serving him. The chambers we saw in the trailer match closely with the incubation chambers noted in Minus. Paragus is not the new Dr Gero.

I still hold that Broly is that one in a millennium child of prophecy. That he has inherited the power of the Saiyan of Legends. Like an Atavism that lays dormant in a families genealogy and can resurface many generations down the line. And cal also have to do with how the Saiyans in Universe 7 and Universe 6 have evolved differently over time. U6 lost their tails, became more societal and possessed a wider range of emotions. Whereas U7 Saiyans scarcely knew what love was and their instinct for battle was their driving force. U7 Saiyans were very primal in their approach and only certain Saiyans, like members of the Royal family, seemed to possess a greater degree of sense than the rest.

And any argument that says Broly needs some kind of enhancement to measure up to God-level is just silly after the stunts they pulled in the ToP with Kale and Caulifla pushing Goku to that level, despite not having half as much experience and training, and both having only recently acquired the SSJ power. Which is only partially explained away by the fact U6 Saiyans evolved differently, so it could be argued that their strength gains are more pronounced than they would be for U7 Saiyans.

It's still clear that Paragus is Broly's father. And it's one of my theories that Paragus, in this iteration, is King Vegeta's brother. Which would keep in line the idea that only the Royal Family would have the potential to become Super Saiyans. Something Vegeta noted to himself way back in the Namek Saga. It could be more accurate to say that only those in the Royal Family had the potential to become the Saiyan of Legend, not necessarily just a Super Saiyan. But perhaps descended from the original Super Saiyan God, whose existence may have been dumbed down over the centuries to be merely referred to as the Legendary Super Saiyan.
ZeroNeonix wrote: Assuming the research was completed before King Vegeta had children, who's to say Vegeta wasn't subjected to this experimentation? After all, he is a Super Saiyan, so maybe he got his S-Cells from Paragus. As for the research being secret from Frieza, maybe it was. Maybe Paragus' lab was hidden on some planet not under Frieza's control. Later, Frieza discovers Paragus and decides to recruit him and Broly in his army, attempting to use the latter to kill Goku.
Because that's dumb. And the fact they made it clear that every Saiyan has the potential to become a Super Saiyan. Which Vegeta proved was possible even with Saiyans from U6, who'd never even heard of Super Saiyan before.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by emperior » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:29 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:What if.... All 3 Goku, Vegeta and Broly were modified Saiyan babies? Think about it, Vegeta was a baby from the highest ranks, Goku was a low class baby, and presumably Broly being in the middle. So they have a set to experiment on... Toriyama talked about all 3 having destiny, perhaps they were modified for specific reasons?

Anyway it will be fun to look back on these speculations and be like "wow we were completely off there :lol:".
That would be absolutely terrible. I hope it won’t be the case. Goku was never meant to be special power-wise. Never. Retconning that would be stupid and against everything that happened to Goku.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:35 pm

Cetra wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:What if.... All 3 Goku, Vegeta and Broly were modified Saiyan babies? Think about it, Vegeta was a baby from the highest ranks, Goku was a low class baby, and presumably Broly being in the middle. So they have a set to experiment on... Toriyama talked about all 3 having destiny, perhaps they were modified for specific reasons?
That would piss off a lot of fans if Goku and Vegeta were experiments. So this will probably be true.
It would sure, but also would explain how Saiyans in general were a race that never came to close to reach the highs of Goku and Vegeta. But I doubt that would happen, I mean do Toriyama cares to elaborate more questions about their growth rather than training?
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Zelvin » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:44 pm

jeffbr92 wrote: It would sure, but also would explain how Saiyans in general were a race that never came to close to reach the highs of Goku and Vegeta. But I doubt that would happen, I mean do Toriyama cares to elaborate more questions about their growth rather than training?
Most Saiyans only ever fought against those weaker than themselves, in the service of Freeza. They didn't really train to improve themselves. They only sought battle to satisfy their basic instinct. On the other hand, Goku was always being pitted against stronger and stronger opponents as he grew up. And, in may cases, was given the time and the drive to improve himself in order to meet these challenges. Something the Saiyans, as a whole, were lacking.

The Saiyans already considered themselves strong, but were also placed into a more docile position because of Freeza. Freeza killed their capacity for growth both by being vastly stronger than them and by providing them with things they'd never had before, thus domesticating them.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:48 pm

Zelvin wrote:The theory that Paragus was experimenting on Saiyans to make them stronger doesn't make sense. Because if he'd succeeded, King Vegeta would've had it used on his sons would've moved all research, as well as a batch of Saiyan infants, to a hidden research facility to hide them away from Freeza. Since they were all afraid that Freeza would one day exterminate them.

So no, the gene-enhancement theory is just bollocks. Saiyans only get tested to discern what degree of potential they have, so they can be categorized into class. There is no indication that they even had the technology to perform genetic research. Because if they did, they'd have had to have gotten it from Freeza's Army. And Freeza would know if they requested such materials. And would've told them no. And probably killed anyone who was involved.
Lol no. Paragus could have been doing the whole thing in secret. And maybe he wasn’t successful until Broly. As for the tech, it could have easily just been done under Freeza’s nose. I mean, maybe Pargus used the tech Freeza already gave to the saiyans plus the tech they already had from the Tuffles and built his own tech to do his own research and tests. I mean, the going off of GT and Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, the Tuffles alone had tech that could bio-enjineer making stuff like Hatchiyak or Baby. Heck, Gero had enough tech to make Cell.

I think you’re trying to make it seem more difficult for Paragus to do such a thing but its really not. If they want to tell that kinda of story where Paragus is experimenting on saiyans, it wouldn’t be that hard for it to make sense.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:54 pm

Zelvin wrote:Because that's dumb. And the fact they made it clear that every Saiyan has the potential to become a Super Saiyan. Which Vegeta proved was possible even with Saiyans from U6, who'd never even heard of Super Saiyan before.
That was never made clear. We assumed that every Saiyan had that potential because every Saiyan currently in the anime has gone Super Saiyan (not including the dead ones, of course). But according to Toriyama, the Super Saiyan state relies on S-Cells, which varies in concentration between individuals. Think of S-Cells as this universe's Midichlorians. Just as those with a low concentration of Midichlorians in their blood cannot use the Force, those with a low S-Cell concentration cannot become a Super Saiyan. And if you think about it, it does makes sense. Before Goku, it had been a thousand years since the last Super Saiyan. Now Super Saiyans are everywhere. Why? Well, Goku and Vegeta may have been lucky enough to have that potential, but for their children, it was just genetics. Goku passed on his S-Cells to Gohan and Goten. Vegeta passed on his S-Cells to Trunks. As for Cabba, he was presumably the strongest Saiyan in his universe prior to the Tournament of Power, so he just happened to have the right genes. Same for Caulifla and Kale. Caulifla was a known powerhouse and troublemaker, and Kale just so happened to have untapped potential waiting to be unleashed. None of the millions of other Saiyans in Universe 6 have gone Super Saiyan. Cabba hadn't even heard of the concept before Vegeta mentioned it, yes. But that point works against you.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Zelvin » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:55 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote: Lol no. Paragus could have been doing the whole thing in secret. And maybe he wasn’t successful until Broly. As for the tech, it could have easily just been done under Freeza’s nose. I mean, maybe Pargus used the tech Freeza already gave to the saiyans plus the tech they already had from the Tuffles and built his own tech to do his own research and tests. I mean, the going off of GT and Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, the Tuffles alone had tech that could bio-enjineer making stuff like Hatchiyak or Baby. Heck, Gero had enough tech to make Cell.

I think you’re trying to make it seem more difficult for Paragus to do such a thing but its really not. If they want to tell that kinda of story where Paragus is experimenting on saiyans, it wouldn’t be that hard for it to make sense.
Tuffles aren't a thing in the canon. So you already lose points there. And Freeza kept the Saiyans under heavy surveillance and scrutiny. Since he was already aware of the Super Saiyan Legend.

And the only thing I see when people keep trying to push the whole gene-mod theory is that they're just trying to make an excuse as for why Broly is so strong. Instead of just letting him be strong, he had to have something extra injected into him by an outside party. It's you guys who're trying to over complicate things with such a bad theory. The fact that so many holes can be poked into it just makes your defense of it all that more unreasonable.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:05 pm

Zelvin wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote: Lol no. Paragus could have been doing the whole thing in secret. And maybe he wasn’t successful until Broly. As for the tech, it could have easily just been done under Freeza’s nose. I mean, maybe Pargus used the tech Freeza already gave to the saiyans plus the tech they already had from the Tuffles and built his own tech to do his own research and tests. I mean, the going off of GT and Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, the Tuffles alone had tech that could bio-enjineer making stuff like Hatchiyak or Baby. Heck, Gero had enough tech to make Cell.

I think you’re trying to make it seem more difficult for Paragus to do such a thing but its really not. If they want to tell that kinda of story where Paragus is experimenting on saiyans, it wouldn’t be that hard for it to make sense.
Tuffles aren't a thing in the canon. So you already lose points there. And Freeza kept the Saiyans under heavy surveillance and scrutiny. Since he was already aware of the Super Saiyan Legend.

And the only thing I see when people keep trying to push the whole gene-mod theory is that they're just trying to make an excuse as for why Broly is so strong. Instead of just letting him be strong, he had to have something extra injected into him by an outside party. It's you guys who're trying to over complicate things with such a bad theory. The fact that so many holes can be poked into it just makes your defense of it all that more unreasonable.
And thats where you’re wrong. The Tuffle episode from the anime was written straight from the pen of Toriyama so it is “canon”. Freeza weak surveillance. The only surveillance we’ve seen Freeza use were his force and the scouters that he could listen through to here the saiyans conversations and that they can track saiyan pods. Paragus could easily gather tech that he already had when the saiyans beat the Tuffles and gather tech that the Freeza Force has supplied, and head to an unknown location like Dr. Gero did to make a lab and do experiments. Its not that hard. Going off the grid is as simple as destroying your scouter. And no where has anything been said that Freeza has other ways of tracking the saiyans besides saiyan pods, scouters. Toriyama has already been shown to be tanking stuff from other Broly movies. He loves sci-fi so he probably could have taken the some bio-broly points and put it into his own movie. And the fact that he brought up S-Cells randomly in an interview and the fact that the movie is about the origins of the saiyans’ strength, that means that someone would have to bring up S-Cells. And who better than a saiyan scientist himself. And the whole idea is better than the lazy “he’s a mutant” or “he’s a prodigy” plot line.

Face it. There is so much evidence pointing towards what clearly many of us believe is a cool and way more interesting theory.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:06 pm

Zelvin wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote: Lol no. Paragus could have been doing the whole thing in secret. And maybe he wasn’t successful until Broly. As for the tech, it could have easily just been done under Freeza’s nose. I mean, maybe Pargus used the tech Freeza already gave to the saiyans plus the tech they already had from the Tuffles and built his own tech to do his own research and tests. I mean, the going off of GT and Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, the Tuffles alone had tech that could bio-enjineer making stuff like Hatchiyak or Baby. Heck, Gero had enough tech to make Cell.
Tuffles aren't a thing in the canon.
Tell that to Toriyama.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:07 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
Zelvin wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote: Lol no. Paragus could have been doing the whole thing in secret. And maybe he wasn’t successful until Broly. As for the tech, it could have easily just been done under Freeza’s nose. I mean, maybe Pargus used the tech Freeza already gave to the saiyans plus the tech they already had from the Tuffles and built his own tech to do his own research and tests. I mean, the going off of GT and Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, the Tuffles alone had tech that could bio-enjineer making stuff like Hatchiyak or Baby. Heck, Gero had enough tech to make Cell.
Tuffles aren't a thing in the canon.
Tell that to Toriyama.
There’s your proof
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Zelvin » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:25 pm

Toriyama forgot Launch even existed. And I don't think Chouzu has mad an appearance yet in Super. You really wanna test his memory of events?
AnimeNation101 wrote: And thats where you’re wrong. The Tuffle episode from the anime was written straight from the pen of Toriyama so it is “canon”. Freeza weak surveillance. The only surveillance we’ve seen Freeza use were his force and the scouters that he could listen through to here the saiyans conversations and that they can track saiyan pods. Paragus could easily gather tech that he already had when the saiyans beat the Tuffles and gather tech that the Freeza Force has supplied, and head to an unknown location like Dr. Gero did to make a lab and do experiments. Its not that hard. Going off the grid is as simple as destroying your scouter. And no where has anything been said that Freeza has other ways of tracking the saiyans besides saiyan pods, scouters. Toriyama has already been shown to be tanking stuff from other Broly movies. He loves sci-fi so he probably could have taken the some bio-broly points and put it into his own movie. And the fact that he brought up S-Cells randomly in an interview and the fact that the movie is about the origins of the saiyans’ strength, that means that someone would have to bring up S-Cells. And who better than a saiyan scientist himself. And the whole idea is better than the lazy “he’s a mutant” or “he’s a prodigy” plot line.

Face it. There is so much evidence pointing towards what clearly many of us believe is a cool and way more interesting theory.
Nnno. There's literally no evidence of your theory. You theorize that Paragus is a scientist, of which he's never shown to be before, not even in the original movie when he had an actual alien scientist who was responsible for Broly's control device. There is no scene of Paragus in the same room as the baby incubators. There's no evidence that the incubators are part of any experiment or attached machinery that'd be responsible for genetic engineering. There is nothing in the trailer that points to any of this at all.

Everything you say can only happen if everyone else besides Paragus is a complete idiot and utterly incompetent. You assume that everyone has the intelligence of Appule. You try to make it seem like Paragus is a super genius who can gather tech, build a lab, get test subjects, and know what S-cells are and what he can do with them, and have all this done under the nose of King Vegeta, Freeza, King Cold (because he's alive too), the entirety of the Saiyan Race and all of Freeza's other forces. Which also includes intelligence members, like Sorbet, who're more adept at information gathering than fighting.

This line of thinking hurts the story and the characters more than anything else. And the fact that nothing in the information we're given even suggest things only makes the theory that much more implausible.

Also, everyone hates midichlorians. The entire concept disregards all other explanations of the Force, as spoken of by Obi-Wan and many others, and brings it down to nothing more than bacteria that gives you super powers. The fans hated it and all the EU books that focused on and used the term were all found to be rather terrible.

The whole idea of S-cells itself flies in the face of everything else we know about becoming a Super Saiyan. Such as Goku explaining how it "comes from a need, not a desire". And it doesn't explain how Gohan could do it when, by all accounts, he should have Half the s-cells Goku had. The same with Goten and Trunks. Yet they could all do it easily. Does that mean humans have S-cells? Of course not. Cause that's dumb.

And really, you all want to say that being born with such an advantage is less likely? Tell that to Pan.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:49 pm

Zelvin wrote:Also, everyone hates midichlorians.
That doesn't make it any less canon. Overreactive fans can foam at the mouth all they want, but it doesn't change anything.

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