Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Zelvin » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:05 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote: No. Reading up on the interview tells you that only having a gentle spirit can increase your S-Cell number. So even if Bardock didn’t have that many S-Cells (but it can be assumed Gine did have more than the averge saiyan due to her gentle nature), Goku built up S-Cells due to his gentle nature. So by the time Gohan was born, he inherited many S-Cells from his father and due to his already gentle nature plus the S-Cells from his father, he got SSJ quicker. And the same thing with Goten.
And that in no way explains Vegeta who was a colossal prick most of his life and still became a Super Saiyan, but only did so after knocking up Bulma. So once again, the flaws in this argument are exposed.
AnimeNation101 wrote: At the time he’s been contradicted by editors was at the time he wasn’t the boss of his own story. He had to get his ideas checked. Now he’s the top boss of his own story and can add whatever lore bits he wants. Sure, people still go over what he writes and edits it a bit to fit something like a tv series or movie, but for stuff like writing manga like DBMinus, no one could change or edit it. It was only Toriyama’s thing. And as we all know, its canon. Its the same with how he’s speaking. He doesn’t;t have to create a whole story just to add lore bits and editors and such can’t check or change what he’s saying because he isn’t making a story. He’s outright tell people how certain things work in his own story.

So in the context of S-Cells, they’re canon until retconned.
And once again, that's still not the case. Toriyama isn't his own boss, because he's not self-employed. And he didn't get to do whatever he wanted with Super. Toei set him up with a team of writers and directors so Toriyama could work off them and they could keep him on point and help keep things relatively smooth throughout DBS' run.

And actually, Toriyama does need to add it into the series lore itself for it to be part of the canon. Just him speaking of the concept in an interview doesn't hold any meaning nor any weight within the series itself. Until it's actually introduced into the series, then it's just a thought he was having and nothing more.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PFM18 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:07 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:
PFM18 wrote:This movie could explain why U7 Saiyans are generally so hillariously, unbelievably weak compared to their U6 counterparts.
Super already did, U6 is more evolved..
"They evolved differently" is all that we really got. I don't think that really suffices

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:16 pm

PFM18 wrote:"They evolved differently" is all that we really got. I don't think that really suffices
How it doesn't? Isn't you the one who says Base Caulifla can one shot Boo? For that matter you should believe on that they are more evolved than the U7 Saiyans at least
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:18 pm

Zelvin wrote:
AnimeNation101 wrote: No. Reading up on the interview tells you that only having a gentle spirit can increase your S-Cell number. So even if Bardock didn’t have that many S-Cells (but it can be assumed Gine did have more than the averge saiyan due to her gentle nature), Goku built up S-Cells due to his gentle nature. So by the time Gohan was born, he inherited many S-Cells from his father and due to his already gentle nature plus the S-Cells from his father, he got SSJ quicker. And the same thing with Goten.
And that in no way explains Vegeta who was a colossal prick most of his life and still became a Super Saiyan, but only did so after knocking up Bulma. So once again, the flaws in this argument are exposed.
AnimeNation101 wrote: At the time he’s been contradicted by editors was at the time he wasn’t the boss of his own story. He had to get his ideas checked. Now he’s the top boss of his own story and can add whatever lore bits he wants. Sure, people still go over what he writes and edits it a bit to fit something like a tv series or movie, but for stuff like writing manga like DBMinus, no one could change or edit it. It was only Toriyama’s thing. And as we all know, its canon. Its the same with how he’s speaking. He doesn’t;t have to create a whole story just to add lore bits and editors and such can’t check or change what he’s saying because he isn’t making a story. He’s outright tell people how certain things work in his own story.

So in the context of S-Cells, they’re canon until retconned.
And once again, that's still not the case. Toriyama isn't his own boss, because he's not self-employed. And he didn't get to do whatever he wanted with Super. Toei set him up with a team of writers and directors so Toriyama could work off them and they could keep him on point and help keep things relatively smooth throughout DBS' run.

And actually, Toriyama does need to add it into the series lore itself for it to be part of the canon. Just him speaking of the concept in an interview doesn't hold any meaning nor any weight within the series itself. Until it's actually introduced into the series, then it's just a thought he was having and nothing more.
1. The whole Vegeta thing is whats known as a plot-hole. They’re everywhere in Dragon Ball.

2. Toriyama creating something like Dragon Ball minus holds the same amount of impact on the db series as Toriyama giving funfacts about stuff in the db series. The only difference is that with DBMinus, Toriyama writes down his ideas into a manga. The interview just has straight facts from the mouth of Toriyama. Both hold the same amount of importance and both are equally canon to the series. You’re legit being in denial. A definition of canon, is “anything acknowledged by the creator(s)”. So unless you think Toriyama doesn’t acknowledge his own words (only a dumbass would think that), what Toriyama says, whether written into a manga, or said during an interview, is going to be canon WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. So yes. S-Cells are canon. So is Yamoshi.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Zelvin » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:37 pm

AnimeNation101 wrote:
1. The whole Vegeta thing is whats known as a plot-hole. They’re everywhere in Dragon Ball.

2. Toriyama creating something like Dragon Ball minus holds the same amount of impact on the db series as Toriyama giving funfacts about stuff in the db series. The only difference is that with DBMinus, Toriyama writes down his ideas into a manga. The interview just has straight facts from the mouth of Toriyama. Both hold the same amount of importance and both are equally canon to the series. You’re legit being in denial. A definition of canon, is “anything acknowledged by the creator(s)”. So unless you think Toriyama doesn’t acknowledge his own words (only a dumbass would think that), what Toriyama says, whether written into a manga, or said during an interview, is going to be canon WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. So yes. S-Cells are canon. So is Yamoshi.
1. It's called a Contradiction, not a plot-hole. Also, Caulifula runs a gang of thugs. Gentle is not in her nature. And she went SSJ easily. Kale was reserved and self-deprecating, not gentle and she went SSJ out of anger and jealousy.

2. They are not straight facts from Toriyama. They are what he's thinking at the time. And by his own admission; he forgets a lot of things about his own works. What he says in an interview is not 100% canon nor correct nor assured by any stretch. Nothing he says is guaranteed canon until it's actually introduced into the series proper. It would be as if he said Goku was eating cheeseburgers at King Kai's before Beerus came over, when he was actually depicted eating curry. Does it magically become cheeseburger's because Toriyama said so, even when the scene that ended up being shown is completely different? Of course not.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by BobZ » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:38 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
BobZ wrote:I'm so hyped for this movie! Does anyone know if there's been any news for an international release apart from the US? Europe? UK? Anything? I'm desperate to see this in theaters, but can't travel all the way to the States from Eastern Europe sadly! :(
Toei Europe told me to patient as they're working with distributors to distribute it across Europe. I predict we will probably get it around Spring time. Toei Europe are lame and just don't have their shit together like Toei USA, their website is still down and has been for like a year now it seems. If they can't fix their website really doubt they can get the film out in January.

The last two movies weren't even distributed here in Belgium (nor the Netherlands).
Can you believe that ... we are such a small country that can beat Brazil, Japan and England in the World Cup, but we cannot have Dragon Ball.

Yes, i am prepared to take a ticket to London to see this movie. But it's kinda absurd to travel so many miles for it while it so popular worldwide and it can be seen almost everywhere in Western Europe.
Nobody knows who Goku or Vegeta is. But when i show the new trailer for the movie, almost everybody thinks it looks cool, also non-fantasy fans.
When it's not marketed here, of course it can not gain any commercial success or popularity.

It's in a sense weird, given the fact all the Marvel and DC-movies and Star Wars are immensely popular. DB would be hype too. There is one problem. They don't find a distributor to market it. :cry:
At least they didn't for the last two movies. I hope this will change know, because the intention is to make it one of the best selling anime movies worldwide (or at least DB-movie) ever.
Damn, that's sad. Well here's hoping at least... if Toei Europe are already in talks with distributors, there's at least a light in the tunnel. If they release this as a normal blockbuster movie across theaters worldwide, they'd make so much money. If there's a slim chance of this showing up in my home country, you bet Imma see it COUNTLESS of times! Eh, a man can dream... :mrgreen:

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Helios518 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:47 pm

Zelvin wrote: 2. They are not straight facts from Toriyama. They are what he's thinking at the time. And by his own admission; he forgets a lot of things about his own works. What he says in an interview is not 100% canon nor correct nor assured by any stretch. Nothing he says is guaranteed canon until it's actually introduced into the series proper. It would be as if he said Goku was eating cheeseburgers at King Kai's before Beerus came over, when he was actually depicted eating curry. Does it magically become cheeseburger's because Toriyama said so, even when the scene that ended up being shown is completely different? Of course not.
I believe you're treating this really black and white as in, you think all WoG statements are either canon or not. That example you said is true because if supplementary material contradicts the source material. But if it doesn't contradict source material, then it's canon because it comes from an official that works on the series. A canon hierarchy could go like: source material > word of god > supplementary material (guidebooks and magazines).
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Zelvin » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:02 pm

Helios518 wrote: I believe you're treating this really black and white as in, you think all WoG statements are either canon or not. That example you said is true because if supplementary material contradicts the source material. But if it doesn't contradict source material, then it's canon because it comes from an official that works on the series. A canon hierarchy could go like: source material > word of god > supplementary material (guidebooks and magazines).
There really isn't much of a way to look at it. Toriyama doesn't always have the final say in these projects. And until the movie actually releases, you can't be certain that anything he says will have made it into the movie. Especially if it was stuff he was only thinking up after the script had already been completed and was just shooting the shit like "Oh you know what might be cool..."

Bits of lore, like Yamoshi, don't change anything because it has no effect within the series itself. It's just an extra bit of trivia. Something like S-cells, however, creates too many problems within the existing story and how everything has worked up until now. it does nothing but hurt the quality of the show and cheapen the exploits of the heroes.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:07 pm

I was just rewatching the end of the ToP and now I'm scared that they beat Broly the same way, teamwork from depleted enemies who are allies for a moment.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Vados_chan » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:08 pm

Zelvin wrote:The entire concept disregards all other explanations of the Force, as spoken of by Obi-Wan and many others, and brings it down to nothing more than bacteria that gives you super powers. The fans hated it and all the EU books that focused on and used the term were all found to be rather terrible.
People who hate them are idiots who don't understand how they work, they don't ruin the Force. And the Plagueis novel is terrible? It's regarded by hardcore fans as one of the greatest Star Wars novels ever written.

Yous should stick to DB cause it's clear you don't know shit about Star Wars.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Helios518 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:20 pm

Zelvin wrote: There really isn't much of a way to look at it. Toriyama doesn't always have the final say in these projects. And until the movie actually releases, you can't be certain that anything he says will have made it into the movie. Especially if it was stuff he was only thinking up after the script had already been completed and was just shooting the shit like "Oh you know what might be cool..."

Bits of lore, like Yamoshi, don't change anything because it has no effect within the series itself. It's just an extra bit of trivia. Something like S-cells, however, creates too many problems within the existing story and how everything has worked up until now. it does nothing but hurt the quality of the show and cheapen the exploits of the heroes.
Sure, not everything Toriyama says will make it into the final product. But IIRC, S-Cells don't contradict anything, and in fact, explain why Goten, Trunks, and Gohan got SS easily. Also, even if it hurts the source's quality, it doesn't make it any less canon or whatever as much as we don't like it.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Zelvin » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:26 pm

Vados_chan wrote: People who hate them are idiots who don't understand how they work, they don't ruin the Force. And the Plagueis novel is terrible? It's regarded by hardcore fans as one of the greatest Star Wars novels ever written.

Yous should stick to DB cause it's clear you don't know shit about Star Wars.
You never tried reading Red Harvest. So don't even try that argument with me. Simply put; there was no reason for them to exist. It's a needless complication within a universe that regarded the force as something mystical and esoteric and existed within all living things. Midichlorians came off as meaning nothing more than being transceivers that let's you talk with it and the whole scanning number thing in Ep1 made it as a poor version of measuring Power Level.

Which Vader fans have overstated to the point of absurdity in claiming he can do everything every other Jedi could do and is stronger than all of them because his MC count is bigger than Yoda's. Despite the feats and abilities performed by ancient Jedi and Sith make him look like a cheap knockoff.
Helios518 wrote: Sure, not everything Toriyama says will make it into the final product. But IIRC, S-Cells don't contradict anything, and in fact, explain why Goten, Trunks, and Gohan got SS easily. Also, even if it hurts the source's quality, it doesn't make it any less canon or whatever as much as we don't like it.
No, it doesn't explain it. Goku wasn't a SSJ when he got together with Chichi and Gohan was born. With Gohan apparently having power stronger than Goku's when he fought Raditz. They already explained in the show that Half-Saiyans have greater potential than pure-Saiyans. That can more easily explain them acquiring SSJ faster. And more easily for Goten since Goku was a SSJ when he knocked up Chichi around the time of the Cell Games, and Vegeta was close to becoming one when he was shacking up with Bulma.

It can even be said that at least one of the parents was far stronger any other Saiyan had been in centuries when fathering their offspring, in the cases of Goten and Trunks. Which is probably the larger contributing factor.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Helios518 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:45 pm

Zelvin wrote: No, it doesn't explain it. Goku wasn't a SSJ when he got together with Chichi and Gohan was born. With Gohan apparently having power stronger than Goku's when he fought Raditz. They already explained in the show that Half-Saiyans have greater potential than pure-Saiyans. That can more easily explain them acquiring SSJ faster. And more easily for Goten since Goku was a SSJ when he knocked up Chichi around the time of the Cell Games, and Vegeta was close to becoming one when he was shacking up with Bulma.

It can even be said that at least one of the parents was far stronger any other Saiyan had been in centuries when fathering their offspring, in the cases of Goten and Trunks. Which is probably the larger contributing factor.
And S-Cells could be used be used as an explanation why those Half-Saiyans have high potential.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:57 pm

Helios518 wrote:S-Cells don't contradict anything, and in fact, explain why Goten, Trunks, and Gohan got SS easily. Also, even if it hurts the source's quality, it doesn't make it any less canon or whatever as much as we don't like it.
How it hurts?
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Zelvin » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:05 pm

Helios518 wrote: And S-Cells could be used be used as an explanation why those Half-Saiyans have high potential.
Except, as I said before, they'd only have half the number of their Saiyan parent. So it doesn't work. And the more you keep trying to explain how it could work, the less it actually works and the more it over complicates things. Which is not something you want to do. You don't want to over complicate something, especially if that something isn't really adding anything that's necessary to the plot of the film nor all that interesting.

Keeping it simple and direct still works much better and Movie 8 had that nailed down. Broly was the Legendary Super Saiyan. That once in a millennia chance. He was the Chosen One and King Vegeta, afraid of that power and fearing he'd be dethroned, tried to have Broly executed in order to eliminate that threat. It's simple, direct and above all, it was effective. Not perfect, but it worked. And because it worked, Broly has been both a fan favorite character and one of the most hated characters in the entire franchise. And it's undeniable the kind of power he has within the fandom.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PFM18 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:11 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:"They evolved differently" is all that we really got. I don't think that really suffices
How it doesn't? Isn't you the one who says Base Caulifla can one shot Boo? For that matter you should believe on that they are more evolved than the U7 Saiyans at least
I'm not "the one" that said Base Caulifla could one shot Buu. It is bordering on a universally accepted fact at this point. But yes, they are extremely, insanely powerful and I think that it wouldn't hurt to elaborate on why they are so strong.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Helios518 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:27 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
Helios518 wrote:S-Cells don't contradict anything, and in fact, explain why Goten, Trunks, and Gohan got SS easily. Also, even if it hurts the source's quality, it doesn't make it any less canon or whatever as much as we don't like it.
How it hurts?
I wasn't specifically referring to S-Cell debacle, but some people choose to not accept because they don't like it.
Zelvin wrote: Except, as I said before, they'd only have half the number of their Saiyan parent. So it doesn't work. And the more you keep trying to explain how it could work, the less it actually works and the more it over complicates things. Which is not something you want to do. You don't want to over complicate something, especially if that something isn't really adding anything that's necessary to the plot of the film nor all that interesting.
And having half the half the number of S-Cells of Saiyan parent such as Goku or Vegeta is still a lot. Gohan had half the S-Cells of Goku with a power level around 300 is probably far better than what Goku had. Then, Goten and Trunks having half the S-Cells of their parents of who had power levels of multi-millons is far better than what any Saiyan previously got. Also, Broli and the Saiyan legend could just be simply explained as a S-Cell mutation.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:29 pm

Zelvin wrote:
Helios518 wrote: Bits of lore, like Yamoshi, don't change anything because it has no effect within the series itself. It's just an extra bit of trivia. Something like S-cells, however, creates too many problems within the existing story and how everything has worked up until now. it does nothing but hurt the quality of the show and cheapen the exploits of the heroes.
You’re just contradicting yourself then. You said that something like Toriyama adding bits of lore into the series in an interview format basically makes all the lore invalid. But now you’re saying it doesn’t matter for Yamoshi becuase he doesn’t effect the series. And thats where you’re wrong becuase it changes up the previous established lore. Because according to Yamoshi’s story, he never even became a Super saiyan God. But that contradicts the story Shenron told.

Both Yamoshi and S-Cells add to lore while contradicting previously established points. To except one but degrade the other is hypocritical. It seems to me like you’re just trying to pick and choose what is and isn’t canon. And your opinions on how you think certain plot points will affect the canon don’t make those plot points any less canon then they are.

As i said before, a definition of canon is “to be acknowledged by the creator”. Toriyama acknowledges S-Cells and Yamoshi so they’re canon. And no one can say otherwise except himself later on if he wants to retcon it.
Last edited by AnimeNation101 on Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Draconic » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:32 pm

If Saiyans get stronger by the amount of S-Cells they have and Broly is a freak of nature whose power grows uncontrolably, is it safe to say he has some kind of Saiyan cancer?
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by AnimeNation101 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:33 pm

Draconic wrote:If Saiyans get stronger by the amount of S-Cells they have and Broly is a freak of nature whose power grows uncontrolably, is it safe to say he has some kind of Saiyan cancer?
I did have a theory where somehow Broly has an extreme amount of S-Cells which explains why his Super saiyan form is so much more powerful than the average ssj form.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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