Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Chuquita » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:09 pm

I guess it depends on where the series picks up after the movie and also if they even want to do EoZ anymore because of how old and unmarketable a lot of the EoZ character designs are (looking at you Bulma and Krillin).
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by AnimeNation101 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:34 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:GT exists as much as any of the stuff not part of the manga dose. Toei makes money off of it to this day so they are never going to just dump it.

It like the movies can exist in it’s own little world apart from Super and they’ll never have to address the issue. Plus if they ever really, I mean REALLY, guntohead had to say anything, they just have to say “different timelines”.

Yes current Super is complete incompatible with GT, but both can exist and you can have ether one as your proffered continuation.
Tbh, i didn’t Even know until this year but I’ve been agreeing with Toriyama on this. GT and the movies are just alternate dimensions. Really, any continuity should just be seen as a different dimension. The real problem comes when people start asking why Goku isn;t using SSJ4 when talking about an episode of a modern day Dragon Ball series.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by CTAkuma » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:07 pm

Chuquita wrote:I guess it depends on where the series picks up after the movie and also if they even want to do EoZ anymore because of how old and unmarketable a lot of the EoZ character designs are (looking at you Bulma and Krillin).
Pretty much this. It would make no sense setting it after the EoZ, unless they completely retcon it (which i'm fully for)

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Chuquita » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:30 pm

CTAkuma wrote:
Chuquita wrote:I guess it depends on where the series picks up after the movie and also if they even want to do EoZ anymore because of how old and unmarketable a lot of the EoZ character designs are (looking at you Bulma and Krillin).
Pretty much this. It would make no sense setting it after the EoZ, unless they completely retcon it (which i'm fully for)
I'm for retconning EoZ. If they can bring Brolli into canon and bring Freeza back twice they can retcon EoZ. There's no reason to keep these 1995 clothing styles and hairstyles if they do set it in that era. Also explaining how Bulma, Krillin, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan aged that much in that short span of time is rough.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PFM18 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:09 pm

ricky84 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote: In Super, Gohans potential is much much higher than 17s and Freezas. He went from weaker than his level of power in the Buu arc to God level in a day. Give him a week of serious training, and put him with Whis at that, and it’s scary to think what he’d become.
Gohans potential, as with almost all the characters in Super, has increased many times greater than anything the original series established.
Well the power Gohan gained in that scene depends on how you interpreted it and it isn't quite as clear cut as you make it out to be. Now, Gohan has still trained for several years prior to becoming rusty in the Buu arc, to train for the 3 years from RoF to now, to then train in his Ultimate state to be somewhere in the ballpark of SSB. Freeza literally just trained for a couple months to reach that level and 17 did it without the help of a ritual performed by a God. That's something that Gohan can't lay claim to.
TheOne wrote: I’m excited for the broly movie. I hope it opens the door to more in universe saiyans laying low and lingering around. I still find it hard to believe that there were only a handful of saiyans who weren’t on the planet when They were sending all these newborns to different planets to conquer them.
Yeah it still is very strange that a race that goes and sends infants to conquer entire planets and is constantly going to planets pirating them, only had a couple of their members of the planet when it was destroyed.
Gohan in the anime became SSB level just in just one day of training (without Whis or any ritual) after he re-unlocked his Ultimate form. Its pretty clear from there that his potential is greater than Freeza's and A17's. Manga Gohan is arguably an even better example, training for a year since BoG and being able to match SSJ1 Kefla in just his base form.
....it was because of a ritual. that was my point. through his various years of training he didnt quite get that strong until he underwent a ritual with Elder Kai and now he was just re-tapping into that power he accessed then. 17 and Freeza did no such thing. Freeza literally did menial training for 4 months and became SSB level and 17 didnt have a ritual or seemingly any kind of advanced training. I think it's clear that among the three Gohan has the lowest potential.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Noah » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:32 am

BlueBasilisk wrote:Dragon Ball Minus explained that. When Frieza decided to destroy the planet he issued a recall order to all the Saiyans. That was one of the things that made Bardock suspicious. Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz just ignored it.
Funny how this is somewhat similar to Order 66 from Revenge of the Sith :)
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Xeztin » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:34 am

I’m still shocked that people still hunt for character development and growth in Dragon Ball, or some well written character. Dragon Ball was not very well written to begin with and it still isn’t. Any or all development ended at the Boo Saga. It’s just rehases, different forms, and tournaments now a days. Zamasu will be as close as you get to a decent written character and even that was flawed. But honestly thats why DB will never die, its the simplicity that somehow keeps it thriving. Its funny what a super human fight, changing forms, and screaming can do. :)

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Sora Saiyan » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:10 am

PFM18 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Well the power Gohan gained in that scene depends on how you interpreted it and it isn't quite as clear cut as you make it out to be. Now, Gohan has still trained for several years prior to becoming rusty in the Buu arc, to train for the 3 years from RoF to now, to then train in his Ultimate state to be somewhere in the ballpark of SSB. Freeza literally just trained for a couple months to reach that level and 17 did it without the help of a ritual performed by a God. That's something that Gohan can't lay claim to.


Yeah it still is very strange that a race that goes and sends infants to conquer entire planets and is constantly going to planets pirating them, only had a couple of their members of the planet when it was destroyed.
Gohan in the anime became SSB level just in just one day of training (without Whis or any ritual) after he re-unlocked his Ultimate form. Its pretty clear from there that his potential is greater than Freeza's and A17's. Manga Gohan is arguably an even better example, training for a year since BoG and being able to match SSJ1 Kefla in just his base form.
....it was because of a ritual. that was my point. through his various years of training he didnt quite get that strong until he underwent a ritual with Elder Kai and now he was just re-tapping into that power he accessed then. 17 and Freeza did no such thing. Freeza literally did menial training for 4 months and became SSB level and 17 didnt have a ritual or seemingly any kind of advanced training. I think it's clear that among the three Gohan has the lowest potential.
One thing I want to add is that Super doesn’t follow the original series logic on potential. That’s where you appear to be hitting an issue. Trunks in Super is a prime example of this. Gohan went from weaker than his Ultimate form, which as we saw in the BoG arc of Super was total fodder to a massively supressed Beerus, which means he was also miles below Vegeta’s rage boost too, then in the space of a day he manages to regain the form, and then continue to evolve from a level miles below Rageta, to probably being stronger than RoF SSJB.
The God form that seemed like the way of bringing the characters beyond their previously established limitations was totally shit on, and the prophetic dream of a GoD shows that Beerus should’ve gone down the road and he would’ve fought somebody so much stronger than SSJG it’s not even funny, or get Gohan to have a quick session for a couple of hours and then the initial SSJG would be pretty shit in comparison. Suck it Beerus’ dream, and Oracle fish too. Let just say that Buu was lucky he never came across 17. 17s current power in the anime is the worst offender, as it shits on the narrative in the originals final arc, and the build up of the god forms in Super.

I know you hate it, but the manga keeps the God forms at the prophecy standard, and even the former characters potential still seems to gel well enough with the original series. Gohan is a bit of an exception as he seems to have surpassed SSJG, but at least he had a while in the gravity chamber. Even so I’m still not happy with it, as it was handled in a fucking awful, awful way. Obviously Freeza gets a pass on the prophetic dream as he was dead.

Anyway, with the newly established potentials I don’t see how Gohans is lesser than the rest, the ultimate form isn’t even used like previously, and now doesn’t bring out all of his potential the way it originally did, but is just another transformation (though the narrative seems to imply it starts at his Buu arc level of power) which he uses to increase his power without the drain of the SSJ forms. So that ritual form doesn’t have much of an effect on the gains he made in that day, it just allowed him to regain his Buu arc power. The gains in that day show it’s not the same potential as before, as Gohan never had an increase like that, in fact no character in the original series made training gains to that extent.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by TheMikado » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:47 am

Xeztin wrote:I’m still shocked that people still hunt for character development and growth in Dragon Ball, or some well written character. Dragon Ball was not very well written to begin with and it still isn’t. Any or all development ended at the Boo Saga. It’s just rehases, different forms, and tournaments now a days. Zamasu will be as close as you get to a decent written character and even that was flawed. But honestly thats why DB will never die, its the simplicity that somehow keeps it thriving. Its funny what a super human fight, changing forms, and screaming can do. :)
This is utterly not true and we need to stop claiming that Dragon ball was "always" bad at something to make Super look better. We all know it started as a gag manga, but Goku himself learned and evolved dramatically. Remember he's the one who mentored and taught Gohan in the hyperbolic time chamber. Yes, Piccolo started the process, but Piccolo himself evolved from Goku's number one adversary to staunch ally. The change was gradual and well developed and bred of necessity rather than a dramatic change of heart. The character relationships were touching and endearing, we've seen some dramatic character growths which emulate real personal growth that you could expect to see over several years or decades.

Dragonball is endearing for the same reasons the Harry Potter series was, or Naruto was, or One Piece is. The key element is to have a franchise progressively grow with its readership in terms of themes and complexity. Each to these series starts with a young protagonist who explores their world, learns, and grows. As the stories progress the themes such as love, self-sacrifice, pride, etc become more mature and more complex. Its the formula for a characters natural evolution. That's why having characters reverse that evolution is so jarring. In each of these series (except One Piece) the series ends with the protagonist leaving the "world" to the next generation. In Harry Potter we see him leaving his son at the train station, in Naruto we got Boruto, and in Dragon ball we have GT where Goku watches Pan and her descendants and Vegeta's fight in a tournament. This is when their stories come full circle as we reflect on the predecessors to the protagonists and how they were helped along. In Harry Potter that role is played by Dumbledore and Harry Potter's family and adult teachers. In Naruto, this is played by the Hokage and other village elders and teachers. In Dragonball, this is played by Roshi, Grandpa Gohan, all of Goku's teachers and saiyan ancestors. Even in My Hero Academia we see the same evolution, All might teaches a young protagonists, leaves the world to him, etc. It's one of the characteristics of this youth based storytelling and its seen constantly in various media. Its a complex and difficult task to keep this going and reflect believably character growth of years and years of work.

Dragon ball has nailed this aspect. So let's not pretend there wasn't well written character growth just for the sake of making Super look less like the half-assed piece of literary crap that it is.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Dbzk1999 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:47 am

TheMikado wrote:
Xeztin wrote:I’m still shocked that people still hunt for character development and growth in Dragon Ball, or some well written character. Dragon Ball was not very well written to begin with and it still isn’t. Any or all development ended at the Boo Saga. It’s just rehases, different forms, and tournaments now a days. Zamasu will be as close as you get to a decent written character and even that was flawed. But honestly thats why DB will never die, its the simplicity that somehow keeps it thriving. Its funny what a super human fight, changing forms, and screaming can do. :)
This is utterly not true and we need to stop claiming that Dragon ball was "always" bad at something to make Super look better. .
Has it ever occurred to you (or anyone that says it) that people say that not to defend Super, but it’s because it’s something that they’ve always thought?
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Michsi » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:59 am

Dragonball is endearing for the same reasons the Harry Potter series was, or Naruto was, or One Piece is. The key element is to have a franchise progressively grow with its readership in terms of themes and complexity
Sorta wondering if DBS being so much more lighthearted than Z had anything to do with them trying to attract a new generation of fans and wanted to start with them as young as possible. Maybe they sorta want to mimic the tone progression of the original DB (or at least that's what I'm hoping for)

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Lord Frieza » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:47 am

[*]
Noah wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:Dragon Ball Minus explained that. When Frieza decided to destroy the planet he issued a recall order to all the Saiyans. That was one of the things that made Bardock suspicious. Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz just ignored it.
Funny how this is somewhat similar to Order 66 from Revenge of the Sith :)
Nothing that unusual really. The android arc takes a lot of inspiration from the Terminator movie, at least in it’s beginnings.

I’d bet money that ol Toriyama likely had been watching the prequel trilogy at some point befor writing that stuff.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ricky84 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:32 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Nobody was talking about Super. He was talking about Dragonball in general. His opinion is what a lot of people assume about Dragonball in general for decades (not that I agree with it, just saying). This isn't a new view at all.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:35 pm

17 doesn't shit on any previous logic. Dude trained for 12 years after the cell games. He was already far above namek saga freeza before training, he should be OP as hell

Freeza getting as strong as he did in 4 months. Nothing wrong with it. People didn't seem to mind Goku getting THOUSANDS of times stronger in a span of 1 week (combining his trip to namek and time on namek) so why can't freeza make absurd gains in short time?


Also a lot of these power creep issues also stem from people highly overrating the god power because they try to apply real life math/science to a "universal" form

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Michsi » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:41 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:17 doesn't shit on any previous logic. Dude trained for 12 years after the cell games. He was already far above namek saga freeza before training, he should be OP as hell

Freeza getting as strong as he did in 4 months. Nothing wrong with it. People didn't seem to mind Goku getting THOUSANDS of times stronger in a span of 1 week (combining his trip to namek and time on namek) so why can't freeza make absurd gains in short time?
Wasn't it confirmed that he actually didn't?

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:42 pm

Michsi wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:17 doesn't shit on any previous logic. Dude trained for 12 years after the cell games. He was already far above namek saga freeza before training, he should be OP as hell

Freeza getting as strong as he did in 4 months. Nothing wrong with it. People didn't seem to mind Goku getting THOUSANDS of times stronger in a span of 1 week (combining his trip to namek and time on namek) so why can't freeza make absurd gains in short time?
Wasn't it confirmed that he actually didn't?
In the manga he mentioned something about just taking care of his island, and his manga self is about ss3 level

In the anime idt anything was ever said

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Shaddy » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:51 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:I’d bet money that ol Toriyama likely had been watching the prequel trilogy at some point befor writing that stuff.
It all makes sense now, THAT'S why minus sucks!
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:16 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:
Michsi wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:17 doesn't shit on any previous logic. Dude trained for 12 years after the cell games. He was already far above namek saga freeza before training, he should be OP as hell

Freeza getting as strong as he did in 4 months. Nothing wrong with it. People didn't seem to mind Goku getting THOUSANDS of times stronger in a span of 1 week (combining his trip to namek and time on namek) so why can't freeza make absurd gains in short time?
Wasn't it confirmed that he actually didn't?
In the manga he mentioned something about just taking care of his island, and his manga self is about ss3 level

In the anime idt anything was ever said
Goku speculates that he's kept up with his training when Dende tells him 17 would be a fearsome enemy, but it's never explicitly confirmed. When Goku fights 17 and says he's surprised 17 is this strong, 17 says "it's not like I've just been spending my time relaxing."

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:41 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:17 doesn't shit on any previous logic. Dude trained for 12 years after the cell games. He was already far above namek saga freeza before training, he should be OP as hell

Freeza getting as strong as he did in 4 months. Nothing wrong with it. People didn't seem to mind Goku getting THOUSANDS of times stronger in a span of 1 week (combining his trip to namek and time on namek) so why can't freeza make absurd gains in short time?


Also a lot of these power creep issues also stem from people highly overrating the god power because they try to apply real life math/science to a "universal" form
Also bearing in mind Freeza hasn't ever trained in his life but also since the lack of training period actually was a plot point as he basically was on a timer and ultimately lost because he didn't train longer in his new form. I don't see how anyone can complain about it since the movie/retelling did address it.

Also it's funny how most people were initially more accepting of Vegeta getting SSGSS than Freeza getting Golden, despite in the movie Vegeta just randomly had it with no explanation.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Raphael_Z » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:52 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:
Michsi wrote:
Wasn't it confirmed that he actually didn't?
In the manga he mentioned something about just taking care of his island, and his manga self is about ss3 level

In the anime idt anything was ever said
Goku speculates that he's kept up with his training when Dende tells him 17 would be a fearsome enemy, but it's never explicitly confirmed. When Goku fights 17 and says he's surprised 17 is this strong, 17 says "it's not like I've just been spending my time relaxing."
In the manga it is implied that his taming of the multiple Cell Jr's was an important part of his training. Considering how OP they were (each one was way stronger than SSJ1 Super Vegeta), it makes sense for A17 to be so OP after 12 years.

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