Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ricky84 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:59 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:17 doesn't shit on any previous logic. Dude trained for 12 years after the cell games. He was already far above namek saga freeza before training, he should be OP as hell

Freeza getting as strong as he did in 4 months. Nothing wrong with it. People didn't seem to mind Goku getting THOUSANDS of times stronger in a span of 1 week (combining his trip to namek and time on namek) so why can't freeza make absurd gains in short time?


Also a lot of these power creep issues also stem from people highly overrating the god power because they try to apply real life math/science to a "universal" form
Hell, in just one year Goku when from a power level of 418 (beginning of Z) to 3 million (base form against Freeza on Namek). People also tend to forget that PLs in Dragonball aren't linear. The average human PL is 5, Roshi's was like 150 when he blew up the moon. The strength of 30 people combined doesn't equal moon-busting lmao.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ricky84 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:04 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:17 doesn't shit on any previous logic. Dude trained for 12 years after the cell games. He was already far above namek saga freeza before training, he should be OP as hell

Freeza getting as strong as he did in 4 months. Nothing wrong with it. People didn't seem to mind Goku getting THOUSANDS of times stronger in a span of 1 week (combining his trip to namek and time on namek) so why can't freeza make absurd gains in short time?


Also a lot of these power creep issues also stem from people highly overrating the god power because they try to apply real life math/science to a "universal" form
Also bearing in mind Freeza hasn't ever trained in his life but also since the lack of training period actually was a plot point as he basically was on a timer and ultimately lost because he didn't train longer in his new form. I don't see how anyone can complain about it since the movie/retelling did address it.

Also it's funny how most people were initially more accepting of Vegeta getting SSGSS than Freeza getting Golden, despite in the movie Vegeta just randomly had it with no explanation.
Vegeta and Goku got SSB at the same time from training with Whis.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by alakazam^ » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:40 pm

TheMikado wrote:making Super look less like the half-assed piece of literary crap that it is.
You must be talking about GT, surely. Which is funny, considering you used it as an example of how a story unfolds ignoring the fact that that wasn't how the manga ended. While "next generation" was implied, Goku wanted to train Oob for his own reasons.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by TheMikado » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:48 pm

alakazam^ wrote:
TheMikado wrote:making Super look less like the half-assed piece of literary crap that it is.
You must be talking about GT, surely. Which is funny, considering you used it as an example of how a story unfolds ignoring the fact that that wasn't how the manga ended. While "next generation" was implied, Goku wanted to train Oob for his own reasons.
Both cases are the same thematically, I used GT because it’s an anime and so is Super.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:51 pm

http://www.newyorkcomiccon.com/en/Sessi ... uper-Broly
"Never-before-seen announcements," eh? :think:

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PFM18 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:01 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote:Trunks in Super is a prime example of this. Gohan went from weaker than his Ultimate form, which as we saw in the BoG arc of Super was total fodder to a massively supressed Beerus, which means he was also miles below Vegeta’s rage boost too, then in the space of a day he manages to regain the form, and then continue to evolve from a level miles below Rageta, to probably being stronger than RoF SSJB.
Trunks trained for 14 years and got really strong. That's the exception not the rule as far as how potential is handled in this series. 17 and Freeza started off extremely strong so naturally had much larger gains because of all their untapped potential that was left dormant because they don't train. And all of these gains Gohan made were not in one day. He had been training since RoF and becoming stronger. You seem to think ALL of this power was gained in a day.
The God form that seemed like the way of bringing the characters beyond their previously established limitations was totally shit on, and the prophetic dream of a GoD shows that Beerus should’ve gone down the road and he would’ve fought somebody so much stronger than SSJG it’s not even funny, or get Gohan to have a quick session for a couple of hours and then the initial SSJG would be pretty shit in comparison. Suck it Beerus’ dream, and Oracle fish too. Let just say that Buu was lucky he never came across 17. 17s current power in the anime is the worst offender, as it shits on the narrative in the originals final arc, and the build up of the god forms in Super.
Yeah I really don't see how the God forms supposedly getting shit on has anything to do with how potential is handled in Dragon Ball Super. This is pretty irrelevant to this discussion. And again, I don't think it is accurate to say that Gohan training for a couple hours would have been a big deal but it is impossible to say. In 17's case you can't really say that because you don't know where that these gains over these 14 years are linear and these gains that 17 acquired contradict absolutely nothing that was previously established.
I know you hate it, but the manga keeps the God forms at the prophecy standard, and even the former characters potential still seems to gel well enough with the original series. Gohan is a bit of an exception as he seems to have surpassed SSJG, but at least he had a while in the gravity chamber. Even so I’m still not happy with it, as it was handled in a fucking awful, awful way. Obviously Freeza gets a pass on the prophetic dream as he was dead.
You know I hate what? the manga?
Anyway, with the newly established potentials I don’t see how Gohans is lesser than the rest, the ultimate form isn’t even used like previously, and now doesn’t bring out all of his potential the way it originally did, but is just another transformation (though the narrative seems to imply it starts at his Buu arc level of power) which he uses to increase his power without the drain of the SSJ forms. So that ritual form doesn’t have much of an effect on the gains he made in that day, it just allowed him to regain his Buu arc power. The gains in that day show it’s not the same potential as before, as Gohan never had an increase like that, in fact no character in the original series made training gains to that extent.
It brings out all of his potential in the transformation. The only way that it is different because he needs to transform into this state in the first place and that is a direct result of the fact that Gohan was slacking on his training and didn't have his Ultimate state anymore. The narrative isn't 100% clear on where this power starts either because "that power you used against Buu" could be referring to the state itself the same way that other transformations are referred to as "a power." The ritual is the reason that he has access to this state in the first so it has EVERYTHING to do with the gains he made in that day. 17, Freeza can lay claim to their astronomical gains without help of a ritual. They started at very high level without training and they reached astronomical gains without anybody else's help. It doesn't suddenly change how potential works and it is clear that of the three of them, Gohan has the lowest potential.
Michsi wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:17 doesn't shit on any previous logic. Dude trained for 12 years after the cell games. He was already far above namek saga freeza before training, he should be OP as hell

Freeza getting as strong as he did in 4 months. Nothing wrong with it. People didn't seem to mind Goku getting THOUSANDS of times stronger in a span of 1 week (combining his trip to namek and time on namek) so why can't freeza make absurd gains in short time?
Wasn't it confirmed that he actually didn't?
Well the manga says that he didn't but the anime leaves it ambiguous what kind of training he did. The manga just messed that up, we know that he did training but we just don't know what kind. It isn't as though he was just fighitng poachers and gained a massive power boost. People freak out when it turns out this mechanically modified human that started out stronger than Freeza trains for 14 years and gets really strong. It is so strange

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:23 am

PFM18 wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote:Trunks in Super is a prime example of this. Gohan went from weaker than his Ultimate form, which as we saw in the BoG arc of Super was total fodder to a massively supressed Beerus, which means he was also miles below Vegeta’s rage boost too, then in the space of a day he manages to regain the form, and then continue to evolve from a level miles below Rageta, to probably being stronger than RoF SSJB.
Trunks trained for 14 years and got really strong. That's the exception not the rule as far as how potential is handled in this series. 17 and Freeza started off extremely strong so naturally had much larger gains because of all their untapped potential that was left dormant because they don't train. And all of these gains Gohan made were not in one day. He had been training since RoF and becoming stronger. You seem to think ALL of this power was gained in a day.
The God form that seemed like the way of bringing the characters beyond their previously established limitations was totally shit on, and the prophetic dream of a GoD shows that Beerus should’ve gone down the road and he would’ve fought somebody so much stronger than SSJG it’s not even funny, or get Gohan to have a quick session for a couple of hours and then the initial SSJG would be pretty shit in comparison. Suck it Beerus’ dream, and Oracle fish too. Let just say that Buu was lucky he never came across 17. 17s current power in the anime is the worst offender, as it shits on the narrative in the originals final arc, and the build up of the god forms in Super.
Yeah I really don't see how the God forms supposedly getting shit on has anything to do with how potential is handled in Dragon Ball Super. This is pretty irrelevant to this discussion. And again, I don't think it is accurate to say that Gohan training for a couple hours would have been a big deal but it is impossible to say. In 17's case you can't really say that because you don't know where that these gains over these 14 years are linear and these gains that 17 acquired contradict absolutely nothing that was previously established.
I know you hate it, but the manga keeps the God forms at the prophecy standard, and even the former characters potential still seems to gel well enough with the original series. Gohan is a bit of an exception as he seems to have surpassed SSJG, but at least he had a while in the gravity chamber. Even so I’m still not happy with it, as it was handled in a fucking awful, awful way. Obviously Freeza gets a pass on the prophetic dream as he was dead.
You know I hate what? the manga?
Anyway, with the newly established potentials I don’t see how Gohans is lesser than the rest, the ultimate form isn’t even used like previously, and now doesn’t bring out all of his potential the way it originally did, but is just another transformation (though the narrative seems to imply it starts at his Buu arc level of power) which he uses to increase his power without the drain of the SSJ forms. So that ritual form doesn’t have much of an effect on the gains he made in that day, it just allowed him to regain his Buu arc power. The gains in that day show it’s not the same potential as before, as Gohan never had an increase like that, in fact no character in the original series made training gains to that extent.
It brings out all of his potential in the transformation. The only way that it is different because he needs to transform into this state in the first place and that is a direct result of the fact that Gohan was slacking on his training and didn't have his Ultimate state anymore. The narrative isn't 100% clear on where this power starts either because "that power you used against Buu" could be referring to the state itself the same way that other transformations are referred to as "a power." The ritual is the reason that he has access to this state in the first so it has EVERYTHING to do with the gains he made in that day. 17, Freeza can lay claim to their astronomical gains without help of a ritual. They started at very high level without training and they reached astronomical gains without anybody else's help. It doesn't suddenly change how potential works and it is clear that of the three of them, Gohan has the lowest potential.
Michsi wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:17 doesn't shit on any previous logic. Dude trained for 12 years after the cell games. He was already far above namek saga freeza before training, he should be OP as hell

Freeza getting as strong as he did in 4 months. Nothing wrong with it. People didn't seem to mind Goku getting THOUSANDS of times stronger in a span of 1 week (combining his trip to namek and time on namek) so why can't freeza make absurd gains in short time?
Wasn't it confirmed that he actually didn't?
Well the manga says that he didn't but the anime leaves it ambiguous what kind of training he did. The manga just messed that up, we know that he did training but we just don't know what kind. It isn't as though he was just fighitng poachers and gained a massive power boost. People freak out when it turns out this mechanically modified human that started out stronger than Freeza trains for 14 years and gets really strong. It is so strange
Would it be inappropriate to use the Cell Jr bonus chapter to get an idea of his training?

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Xeztin » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:08 am

I’ve found potential to be a strange word in the series, I think everyone has the ability to reach certain heights including humans, they just choose not to or don’t have the motivations as Goku does. Now genes or race might give an advantage but I believe all Saiyans especially could reach Goku’s height if they lived his life. I think the whole point of Goku being “low class” was to show anyone can do anything with hard work.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:49 am

Xeztin wrote:I’ve found potential to be a strange word in the series, I think everyone has the ability to reach certain heights including humans, they just choose not to or don’t have the motivations as Goku does. Now genes or race might give an advantage but I believe all Saiyans especially could reach Goku’s height if they lived his life. I think the whole point of Goku being “low class” was to show anyone can do anything with hard work.
Nobody has as much potential as the new Broly. That is a fact.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by TheOne » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:16 am


There’s only a couple reasons why I think that Cell jr thing is inappropriate. One, somebody would’ve surely sensed Cell Jrs training and checked it out. Two, the ceiling in while 17 would have from training with cell jrs. Ssj2 Gohan would get demolished by everyone at this point. How in the world are we to expect that 17 got THAT much stronger by training with irrelevant Cell Jrs? When you’re lvl 1, of course you’re going to get a lot of experience from fighting lvl 30. However once you get to lvl 30 yourself, the effectiveness always goes down. You don’t make the gains you use to unless you fight someone at level 50. 17 was stuck with fighters at lvl 30. Yeah he still gets “experience points” fighting Cell Jrs, but goodness that would be a slow grind. Cell Jrs just seem to weak for him to be as strong as he is now.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:29 am

Moving away from the non-relevant stuff, hopefully for good but likely not, what do you guys think Paragus's role will ultimately amount to?

A simple unleasher of Broly? A link to the Saiyans' past? And will he survive or not?

Personally speaking, I'm leaning towards him not surviving but being an important perspective look at how the Universe 7 Saiyans lived.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Michsi » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:43 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Moving away from the non-relevant stuff, hopefully for good but likely not, what do you guys think Paragus's role will ultimately amount to?

A simple unleasher of Broly? A link to the Saiyans' past? And will he survive or not?

Personally speaking, I'm leaning towards him not surviving but being an important perspective look at how the Universe 7 Saiyans lived.

I'm hoping that they'll keep the original idea of him holding a grudge against the royal family and Vegeta. I always found that to be a really interesting part in movie 8, including that he ended up thinking of Broly as nothing more than a tool for his vengeance.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Chuquita » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:34 am

I want Paragas' role to be that guy who wanted to be king and thought his son being stronger than the king's son was his ticket to usurping the throne only to be stopped by King Vegeta's own ruthlessness so now Paragas has been stoking revenge on the royal family for the last 30 years and he'll take it out on Vegeta even without a kingdom to rule if he beats him.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PFM18 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:01 pm

Chuquita wrote:I want Paragas' role to be that guy who wanted to be king and thought his son being stronger than the king's son was his ticket to usurping the throne only to be stopped by King Vegeta's own ruthlessness so now Paragas has been stoking revenge on the royal family for the last 30 years and he'll take it out on Vegeta even without a kingdom to rule if he beats him.
yeah I agree that'd be pretty cool

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by LightBing » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:19 pm

Yeah Vegeta's interactions with Broly and Paragus will say a lot. Goku's role in this, I'm honestly not that interested maybe if he starts to handle the consequence of bringing back freaking Freeza to life.

There's just so much that could make this movie great. I really, really want to see what the hell Freeza's been doing. That's one of the most interesting developments in Super, bringing back a villain who doesn't redeem himself.

Finally if this movie will connect with a new show or something of that sort give us a glimpse of Oob. The manga did this and it helped to center ourselves and realize this is an in-between arc.

PS: Give us a freaking timeline.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by CTAkuma » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:25 pm

Chuquita wrote:I want Paragas' role to be that guy who wanted to be king and thought his son being stronger than the king's son was his ticket to usurping the throne only to be stopped by King Vegeta's own ruthlessness so now Paragas has been stoking revenge on the royal family for the last 30 years and he'll take it out on Vegeta even without a kingdom to rule if he beats him.
It would be cool if he was still alive, but that's looking unlikely as more info will come out in the future.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:26 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Moving away from the non-relevant stuff, hopefully for good but likely not, what do you guys think Paragus's role will ultimately amount to?

A simple unleasher of Broly? A link to the Saiyans' past? And will he survive or not?

Personally speaking, I'm leaning towards him not surviving but being an important perspective look at how the Universe 7 Saiyans lived.
I see him being there to dump exposition and backstory. He's the oldest Saiyan we've ever seen so he's bound to know stuff Vegeta does not. OG Paragus was really a proto-Bibidi to Broly's Majin Buu. I hope there's a bit more to it than that this time.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:34 pm

LightBing wrote:PS: Give us a freaking timeline.
You mean the years of the events? We already have one.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by LightBing » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:47 pm

Grimlock wrote:
LightBing wrote:PS: Give us a freaking timeline.
You mean the years of the events? We already have one.
We do? Where can I find this information? I really want to know how many years have passed since Boo.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:50 pm

LightBing wrote:We do? Where can I find this information? I really want to know how many years have passed since Boo.
You can find in Movie 15's guidebook, both Xenoverse games and the old version of the Dragon Ball SSSS website.

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