Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by precita » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:06 pm

If Bardock doesn't wear his own armor, learn of Planet Vegeta's destruction, and try to confront Freeza in space fighting off Freeza's solders and then die by the death ball...I probably won't see the movie. This isn't, "my canon."

I don't care about Broly that much to watch a movie that bastardizes the origin of the Saiyans and Bardock's character.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by alakazam^ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:09 pm

PFM18 wrote:But if they don't have that scene in this movie that will reach so many people, and showing that many people that may or may not be familiar with the original manga, something that blatantly contradicts the manga, it would be the single biggest failure in modern DB.
Freeza could see Burdock some other way, it doesn't have to be in the moment the special showed.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:14 pm

Mewzard wrote:
Shaddy wrote:I'd argue Bardock's defining moment is the first we see of him, murdering people and enjoying it. The entire point of his special is that he's nobody. He's a random-ass low class saiyan warrior who just happened to be the father of a galactic hero, who just happened to be able to see the future for a while. Attempting to stop Freeza and being pathetically shut down for it is nothing but the period on the shitty sentence that was his life. He could have been anyone.

Without the rebellion, all we lose is a memorable death for the character. And if that's all you care about, you can just watch the special. The fact stands that Minus took a lot of way more fucking important things away from Bardock than that.
And guess what opens Minus?

Image

Killing off a planet's inhabitants with no moral qualms whatsoever.

How is he any less of a random-ass low class nobody?

Also, there's no evidence that Bardock doesn't die trying to make a stand against Freeza because Minus wasn't focusing on that. We never saw Freeza destroy Vegeta in Minus, but we do in the Broli movie. Yes, the trailer doesn't show it, but that's just it: It's a trailer, not an extended clip of the scene.
ricky84 wrote:He died like a man in the 90s special. That's the point of people's beef with DB Minus.
Like I said. We don't know how he died in Minus. We'll probably know in the new movie.
The Bardock in Minus may not technically be a good guy, but Toriyama also went out of his way to establish that he and his wife are special among Saiyans because of how much they care for one another, and the implication is that if it hadn’t been for Freeza’s influence, they would probably be decent people. Also, it’s worth noting that the people Bardock was shown killing were explicitly portrayed as being monstrous looking, which seems like an attempt by Toriyama to make sure we don’t feel any sympathy for them.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Mewzard » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:30 pm

WittyUsername wrote:The Bardock in Minus may not technically be a good guy, but Toriyama also went out of his way to establish that he and his wife are special among Saiyans because of how much they care for one another, and the implication is that if it hadn’t been for Freeza’s influence, they would probably be decent people. Also, it’s worth noting that the people Bardock was shown killing were explicitly portrayed as being monstrous looking, which seems like an attempt by Toriyama to make sure we don’t feel any sympathy for them.
A person can be a murderous monster and still treat their significant other well, even bad people can have moments of decency. That doesn't undo said bad stuff.

Bardock murders for a living. Them not being visually appealing doesn't undo that. They most assuredly were defending themselves, and Bardock most definitely had killed more human looking races at some point. The Saiyans were certainly not good people, even if they had moments of civility among their own people, that wouldn't undo that. Even the "nicest Saiyans" in this example show zero remorse for their lifestyle of genocide.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PFM18 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:32 pm

alakazam^ wrote:
PFM18 wrote:But if they don't have that scene in this movie that will reach so many people, and showing that many people that may or may not be familiar with the original manga, something that blatantly contradicts the manga, it would be the single biggest failure in modern DB.
Freeza could see Burdock some other way, it doesn't have to be in the moment the special showed.
Obviously Freeza would have seen him regardless. But without the rebellion Bardock is just some random who didn't do anything of significance, and obviously not memorable in any way.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ricky84 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:33 pm

alakazam^ wrote: Complete this sentence: "to fight bravely to the end" is dying like a man and "passively dying" is dying like a...
Wimp, a lesser man. What, you thought I think passively dying is a female thing? You are making way to many assumptions.
Last edited by ricky84 on Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ricky84 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:35 pm

Bardock's rebellion and his vain revenge arc against Freeza were some of the main things that made him popular in the 1st place
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:36 pm

Mewzard wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:The Bardock in Minus may not technically be a good guy, but Toriyama also went out of his way to establish that he and his wife are special among Saiyans because of how much they care for one another, and the implication is that if it hadn’t been for Freeza’s influence, they would probably be decent people. Also, it’s worth noting that the people Bardock was shown killing were explicitly portrayed as being monstrous looking, which seems like an attempt by Toriyama to make sure we don’t feel any sympathy for them.
A person can be a murderous monster and still treat their significant other well, even bad people can have moments of decency. That doesn't undo said bad stuff.

Bardock murders for a living. Them not being visually appealing doesn't undo that. They most assuredly were defending themselves, and Bardock most definitely had killed more human looking races at some point. The Saiyans were certainly not good people, even if they had moments of civility among their own people, that wouldn't undo that. Even the "nicest Saiyans" in this example show zero remorse for their lifestyle of genocide.
But again, the story explicitly suggests that the empathy Bardock and Gine exhibit among themselves makes them exceptions among the Saiyan race. The story even makes a point to have Bardock establish that Gine’s “softness” rubbed off on him. Yes, the Bardock depicted in Minus does kill people for a living, but he’s still implied to be special among the Saiyan race due to his empathy for his family. I certainly can’t imagine Toei’s Bardock selflessly giving up his own chance of survival for the sake of his son. Oh, and he and Gine also apparently didn’t want Goku to trash up Earth, given that they advised him not to look at the full moon, so there’s that. No one ever said that it undoes the atrocities he commits, but it does paint him in a more flattering light than his Toei counterpart.

I really don’t know why you’re even trying to suggest that Toriyama wasn’t trying to make Bardock and Goku special. If you like Minus, that’s all well and good, but the story was clearly trying to paint Goku’s family as unique.
Last edited by WittyUsername on Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:38 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:Yeah, without the rebellion scene it changes literally nothing. Absolutely nothing changes.
Well, except for stripping the character of his most defining moment and altering the nature of the heritage of the main character.

Vegeta's father was the King of the Saiyans.
Goku's father was the man who lead the rebellion against their overlord despite being a nobody.

Without the rebellion scene, there is no scene of Freeza recognizing Goku as Bardock's son either. Not to mention it would blatantly contradict the original manga
And of those details, how many of those make a genuine difference in the series? Goku being the son of an idiot saiyan who died for nothing. Yeah, some legacy. And Frieza recognizing the son of some low class monkey regardless to whether or not he was the last saiyan he saw is retarded. Why would frieza bother remembering him? He posed no threat, and did absolutely but die. The only reason I can think of is that frieza thought him dying like that was hilarious.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by alakazam^ » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:43 pm

PFM18 wrote:Obviously Freeza would have seen him regardless. But without the rebellion Bardock is just some random who didn't do anything of significance, and obviously not memorable in any way.
And what's wrong with it? That's all he ever was. He attacked Freeza in the special because he was already cornered, I don't think we can say he "rebelled" just because he went after Freeza when he knew what was going to happen. Nobody-Burdock is as good a character, I think.
ricky84 wrote:Lesser man. What, you thought I think passively dying is a female thing? You are making way to many assumptions.
Sure, "lesser man". You've already proven my point so I don't think there's anything more to add, really.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ricky84 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:48 pm

alakazam^ wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Obviously Freeza would have seen him regardless. But without the rebellion Bardock is just some random who didn't do anything of significance, and obviously not memorable in any way.
And what's wrong with it? That's all he ever was. He attacked Freeza in the special because he was already cornered, I don't think we can say he "rebelled" just because he went after Freeza when he knew what was going to happen. Nobody-Burdock is as good a character, I think.
ricky84 wrote:Lesser man. What, you thought I think passively dying is a female thing? You are making way to many assumptions.
Sure, "lesser man". You've already proven my point so I don't think there's anything more to add, really.
What point? Were is the sexism? If you can objectively measure a person's height, weight and even intelligence (IQ), who is to say you can't measure a person's masculinity and/or femininity?
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Shaddy » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:56 pm

If you put masculinity and femininity on opposite sides of a spectrum, then say that the more masculine actions are better like you have with Bardock here, then you pretty blatantly are valuing masculinity above femininity and saying that the things you consider strong and/or valiant are linked more to a person's born gender than their own status as a person, even though none of these events are exclusive to any gender and being "statistically more average" with data you aren't going to produce doesn't change that. Whether you have some flawed idea of Bardock's death being "masculine" really isn't as relevant as you very obviously implying that that masculinity makes him better.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ricky84 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:10 pm

Shaddy wrote:If you put masculinity and femininity on opposite sides of a spectrum, then say that the more masculine actions are better like you have with Bardock here, then you pretty blatantly are valuing masculinity above femininity and saying that the things you consider strong and/or valiant are linked more to a person's born gender than their own status as a person, even though none of these events are exclusive to any gender and being "statistically more average" with data you aren't going to produce doesn't change that. Whether you have some flawed idea of Bardock's death being "masculine" really isn't as relevant as you very obviously implying that that masculinity makes him better.
You are assuming too much about me. I never said masculinity was better than femininity nor did I ever imply they are opposites (they're not. They are complimentary elements like yin & yang that exist in every individual being in varying degrees). Being more or less masculine doesn't make you more or less feminine and vice versa.

And just because a trait exist in both men and women doesn't mean it isn't inherently masculine or feminine. For example, even though we all know that both men and women can get super buff muscles, we intuitively know that muscularity is a masculine trait because 1) Its fueled by testosterone and other male hormones and 2) men naturally have more of it on average than women.
Last edited by ricky84 on Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:18 pm

People complaining about canon Bardock knowing about Frieza's plan "by magic," when the special literally gave him that knowledge via magic. lol

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:19 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote:People complaining about canon Bardock knowing about Frieza's plan "by magic," when the special literally gave him that knowledge via magic. lol
Lol, yeah

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:20 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote:People complaining about canon Bardock knowing about Frieza's plan "by magic," when the special literally gave him that knowledge via magic. lol
I mean...you'd have to be a moron not to think something was up just from the all out request itself. Not to mention the psychic ability served a purpose for the narrative and character so.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Vados_chan » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:21 pm

alakazam^ wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Obviously Freeza would have seen him regardless. But without the rebellion Bardock is just some random who didn't do anything of significance, and obviously not memorable in any way.
And what's wrong with it? That's all he ever was. He attacked Freeza in the special because he was already cornered, I don't think we can say he "rebelled" just because he went after Freeza when he knew what was going to happen. Nobody-Burdock is as good a character, I think.
ricky84 wrote:Lesser man. What, you thought I think passively dying is a female thing? You are making way to many assumptions.
Sure, "lesser man". You've already proven my point so I don't think there's anything more to add, really.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ricky84 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:23 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote:People complaining about canon Bardock knowing about Frieza's plan "by magic," when the special literally gave him that knowledge via magic. lol
So true lmao. Either way, many of the saiyans should have assumed with common sense that Freeza would turn on them. King Vegeta in the Z filler knew he would and was shown starting his own rebellion against Freeza.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by LightBing » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:24 pm

WittyUsername wrote:But again, the story explicitly suggests that the empathy Bardock and Gine exhibit among themselves makes them exceptions among the Saiyan race. The story even makes a point to have Bardock establish that Gine’s “softness” rubbed off on him. Yes, the Bardock depicted in Minus does kill people for a living, but he’s still implied to be special among the Saiyan race due to his empathy for his family. I certainly can’t imagine Toei’s Bardock selflessly giving up his own chance of survival for the sake of his son. Oh, and he and Gine also apparently didn’t want Goku to trash up Earth, given that they advised him not to look at the full moon, so there’s that. No one ever said that it undoes the atrocities he commits, but it does paint him in a more flattering light than his Toei counterpart.

I really don’t know why you’re even trying to suggest that Toriyama wasn’t trying to make Bardock and Goku special. If you like Minus, that’s all well and good, but the story was clearly trying to paint Goku’s family as unique.
Bardock's special in both versions. Bardock goes to save his comrades in the special a very un-Saiyan characteristic. It's exactly the same trait directed at different people.

Regarding not looking at the full-moon, that's simply logical. Goku would call attention to himself by causing random destruction, the army/strong humans would pay attention to him and likely kill him. Pretty sure there's an interview with Mr.Toriyama where he mentions the low survival rate of rocket babies, plus like we know Goku was very killable until his 12/13 years old.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by YamiGoku » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:24 pm

90s Bardock died like a MAN. :thumbup:


I hope this Bardock gets to do something, it would be nice if him and Gine fight together, like the 90s special scene but the two fighting together instead of just bardock.

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