Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ricky84 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:26 pm

YamiGoku wrote:90s Bardock died like a MAN. :thumbup:


I hope this Bardock gets to do something, it would be nice if him and Gine fight together, like the 90s special scene but the two fighting together instead of just bardock.
That would be even better than the 90s version.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Dragono » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:32 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Dragono wrote:Basically, he was a tragic antihero who failed but succeeded through his son
And in order to fail, he has at least to try. If he doesn't even try, he won't fail, and it will ruin the character badly. So you see, his stand cannot be denied even in the wildest dreams. It has to happen.
he already failed when he lost to dodroia and like i said him beating Chilled already ruined this.

Bardock has been ruined since 2011 and thats a sequel to the special so you can't ignore it.
Last edited by Dragono on Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by LightBing » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:34 pm

What I hope is that Bardock actually gathers a resistance and we have a battlefield fight scene, something rare in Dragon Ball.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Dragono » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:38 pm

LightBing wrote:What I hope is that Bardock actually gathers a resistance and we have a battlefield fight scene, something rare in Dragon Ball.
This flashabck is going to be 20 minutes, there is no way that is just going to be a 16 page manga chapter with some broly in it.

we saw paragus and king vegeta together, Bardock is probably there too.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:42 pm

LightBing wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:But again, the story explicitly suggests that the empathy Bardock and Gine exhibit among themselves makes them exceptions among the Saiyan race. The story even makes a point to have Bardock establish that Gine’s “softness” rubbed off on him. Yes, the Bardock depicted in Minus does kill people for a living, but he’s still implied to be special among the Saiyan race due to his empathy for his family. I certainly can’t imagine Toei’s Bardock selflessly giving up his own chance of survival for the sake of his son. Oh, and he and Gine also apparently didn’t want Goku to trash up Earth, given that they advised him not to look at the full moon, so there’s that. No one ever said that it undoes the atrocities he commits, but it does paint him in a more flattering light than his Toei counterpart.

I really don’t know why you’re even trying to suggest that Toriyama wasn’t trying to make Bardock and Goku special. If you like Minus, that’s all well and good, but the story was clearly trying to paint Goku’s family as unique.
Bardock's special in both versions. Bardock goes to save his comrades in the special a very un-Saiyan characteristic. It's exactly the same trait directed at different people.

Regarding not looking at the full-moon, that's simply logical. Goku would call attention to himself by causing random destruction, the army/strong humans would pay attention to him and likely kill him. Pretty sure there's an interview with Mr.Toriyama where he mentions the low survival rate of rocket babies, plus like we know Goku was very killable until his 12/13 years old.
The Bardock in the TV special never actually went out to save his comrades. He flew over to the Planet Meat expecting to find his comrades victorious, but instead found them dead. Sure, he was upset about their deaths, but he didn’t dwell on it for too long, and he made it clear that he couldn’t care less about his son. The bottom line is that the Bardock of the TV special was a random nobody who didn’t amount to anything in the grand scheme of things, while the Bardock of Minus was not only an anomaly among the Saiyan race, but was also an important character in the grand scheme of the Dragon Ball universe, given that his actions directly led to Freeza’s eventual downfall.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:44 pm

Dragono wrote:
Grimlock wrote:
Dragono wrote:Basically, he was a tragic antihero who failed but succeeded through his son
And in order to fail, he has at least to try. If he doesn't even try, he won't fail, and it will ruin the character badly. So you see, his stand cannot be denied even in the wildest dreams. It has to happen.
he already failed when he lost to dodroia and like i said him beating Chilled already ruined this.

Bardock has been ruined since 2011 and thats a sequel to the special so you can't ignore it.
Episode of Bardock actually is pretty easy to ignore, given that it was marketed as a what-if type story. It was never meant to be the true origin of the Super Saiyan legend. It was just a silly little story that was made to promote a game.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Shaddy » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:57 pm

ricky84 wrote: You are assuming too much about me. I never said masculinity was better than femininity nor did I ever imply they are opposites (they're not. They are complimentary elements like yin & yang that exist in every individual being in varying degrees). Being more or less masculine doesn't make you more or less feminine and vice versa.
Even if I pretend that's true, it's still glorifying a worthless and not inherently male act, implying that Bardock is somehow better for it despite it accomplishing jack shit. What's so scientifically manly about dying for nothing?
ricky84 wrote:And just because a trait exist in both men and women doesn't mean isn't inherently masculine or feminine. For example, even though we all know that both men and women can get super buff muscles, we intuitively know that muscularity is a masculine trait because 1) Its fueled by testosterone and other male hormones and 2) men naturally have more of it on average than women.
Except what isn't exclusive shouldn't be treated as an exclusively masculine trait, which is what you're doing. What about a woman with muscles makes her more like a man, when nothing about having muscles is exclusive to men? Or hey, how many animal species have the females the hunting naturally? Are they all acting their way by nature out of line for their gender? I guess by your logic they're all just born wrong. Observed trends are not absolutes.
ZeroNeonix wrote:People complaining about canon Bardock knowing about Frieza's plan "by magic," when the special literally gave him that knowledge via magic. lol
The point is that in the special, Bardock alone knows for a reason, and nobody else does. In Minus, nobody else knows, but Bardock alone does for no reason at all. The "well it's obvious" defense doesn't work because in the special, none of the other saiyans with Bardock suspect Freeza, and Bardock only does through some outside influence. In Minus, nothing has changed except Bardock no longer has that influence but somehow knows anyway. If everyone being obtuse enough not to see it coming is a plot element that's fine, but there has to be something that makes whoever does see it coming different.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by LightBing » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:58 pm

Dragono wrote:
LightBing wrote:What I hope is that Bardock actually gathers a resistance and we have a battlefield fight scene, something rare in Dragon Ball.
This flashabck is going to be 20 minutes, there is no way that is just going to be a 16 page manga chapter with some broly in it.

we saw paragus and king vegeta together, Bardock is probably there too.
Was it said the Minus part is going to be 20 minutes?
WittyUsername wrote:The Bardock in the TV special never actually went out to save his comrades. He flew over to the Planet Meat expecting to find his comrades victorious, but instead found them dead. Sure, he was upset about their deaths, but he didn’t dwell on it for too long, and he made it clear that he couldn’t care less about his son. The bottom line is that the Bardock of the TV special was a random nobody who didn’t amount to anything in the grand scheme of things, while the Bardock of Minus was not only an anomaly among the Saiyan race, but was also an important character in the grand scheme of the Dragon Ball universe, given that his actions directly led to Freeza’s eventual downfall.
Bloody bandanna? He literally carried their blood with him until he died. How is he a nobody if he's the second strongest Saiyan at the time, his squad hunted personally by Freeza's personal guard. He's not a nobody at all, he's freaking special receiving magic to progress the plot otherwise the main character syndrome.

Like I insist in terms of not being a Saiyan sociopath both Bardocks share this, both are anomalies by caring about others than themselves. Special Bardock even more because he's actually strong so he's an anomaly as a low-class.

Yes in the grand scheme of things Minus Bardock actually affected the story, one of my favorites changes. I much prefer Goku being saved by actions than by dumb luck/coincidence.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PremiumSalt » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:00 pm

Xeztin wrote:If we knew nothing about the past other than Vegeta was the prince and planet Vegeta was destroyed and we have Goku alive on earth, wouldn’t you be curious to how Goku was alive?
Not particularly. Take for example, Batman. We know that his parents were murdered, because that's all that's relevant to Batman's character. But most adaptations don't delve much into who they were as people, because it's not important. Likewise, in the original series, all we learn about Goku's father is that he was a saiyan, and that he presumably sent him off to destroy all life on earth. Because that's all that's important about him. Enter the Bardock Special. At this point, Bardock needs to be his own character, with his own traits, personality, etc, because he is the main character of the piece. Now, within this one special, it becomes necessary for us to learn more. And in those 40 or so minutes, the most interesting thing he does is stand up to Freeza, and it's a defining moment for his character.

The point I'm making is, there is a difference between the vaguely defined "Goku's father" that we know of within the original storyline, and Bardock, the character established in the Bardock special. They are the same on a factual level in universe, of course, but I know everything I need to about "Goku's father". I don't care much about the details, because it's not important. But the fact is we have been given more details, and in doing so they created a character many people enjoyed and found interesting, separate from being Goku's father. And now, seemingly, they've taken away his most defining moment. He has regressed to being no more interesting than "Goku's father". Except now, we know who he is, making him a "character" in the traditional sense whereas he wasn't before within the main storyline. And he's a really damn boring one.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ricky84 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:11 pm

Shaddy wrote:
ricky84 wrote: You are assuming too much about me. I never said masculinity was better than femininity nor did I ever imply they are opposites (they're not. They are complimentary elements like yin & yang that exist in every individual being in varying degrees). Being more or less masculine doesn't make you more or less feminine and vice versa.
Even if I pretend that's true, it's still glorifying a worthless and not inherently male act, implying that Bardock is somehow better for it despite it accomplishing jack shit. What's so scientifically manly about dying for nothing?
ricky84 wrote:And just because a trait exist in both men and women doesn't mean isn't inherently masculine or feminine. For example, even though we all know that both men and women can get super buff muscles, we intuitively know that muscularity is a masculine trait because 1) Its fueled by testosterone and other male hormones and 2) men naturally have more of it on average than women.
Except what isn't exclusive shouldn't be treated as an exclusively masculine trait, which is what you're doing. What about a woman with muscles makes her more like a man, when nothing about having muscles is exclusive to men? Or hey, how many animal species have the females the hunting naturally? Are they all acting their way by nature out of line for their gender? I guess by your logic they're all just born wrong. Observed trends are not absolutes.
ZeroNeonix wrote:People complaining about canon Bardock knowing about Frieza's plan "by magic," when the special literally gave him that knowledge via magic. lol
The point is that in the special, Bardock alone knows for a reason, and nobody else does. In Minus, nobody else knows, but Bardock alone does for no reason at all. The "well it's obvious" defense doesn't work because in the special, none of the other saiyans with Bardock suspect Freeza, and Bardock only does through some outside influence. In Minus, nothing has changed except Bardock no longer has that influence but somehow knows anyway. If everyone being obtuse enough not to see it coming is a plot element that's fine, but there has to be something that makes whoever does see it coming different.
Learn how to read, because you're making yourself look dumb:

1. Bravery and and defiance even when the odds are stacked against you is what makes Bardock's act awesome. And yes, courage and defiance are inherently masculine traits.

2. I never said muscles were exclusive to women, can't you read? And nobody said a thing about gender roles, so your argument about females hunting is completely irreverent. Nobody said group differences were absolute either, putting words in my mouth again.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:22 pm

I don't really see anything wrong with the future sight at all. It was basically a fuck you to Bardock. Here's the ability to see the future, cool right? Well all you can see is that you're gonna die, your species is gonna die, and there's nothing you can do about it. Then spends the rest of the special trying to fight that fate while everyone laughs at him, and he fails pretty much at every turn possible. The future sight was the equivalent of having someone constantly whisper in your ear "You're gonna die. You're fucked" over and over and over again. The only solace was his son who he thought sucked hard would confront Freeza...which even then didn't mean he would be the one to put him down...which he wasn't...since that was Trunks.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by LightBing » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:36 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:I don't really see anything wrong with the future sight at all. It was basically a fuck you to Bardock. Here's the ability to see the future, cool right? Well all you can see is that you're gonna die, your species is gonna die, and there's nothing you can do about it. Then spends the rest of the special trying to fight that fate while everyone laughs at him, and he fails pretty much at every turn possible. The future sight was the equivalent of having someone constantly whisper in your ear "You're gonna die. You're fucked" over and over and over again. The only solace was his son who he thought sucked hard would confront Freeza...which even then didn't mean he would be the one to put him down...which he wasn't...since that was Trunks.
It was to screw Bardock, like the Kanassian said. Unfortunately in the final moments they took it all back by giving Bardock hope.
Had the Kanassian not done it Bardock's death would have likely been much more miserable in the end, even if the trip there wouldn't be as bad, since he would have died helpless. That final vision is a bittersweat ending to a character that shouldn't have one, the special contradicts itself because of this.

The future-sight thingy is the worst thing about the special.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Grimlock » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:55 pm

Dragono wrote:he already failed when he lost to dodroia and like i said him beating Chilled already ruined this.
Huh? No. Bardock wasn't trying to accomplish anything in his encounter with Dodoria. The latter just appeared out of nowhere and took Bardock by surprise. I don't know what his victory over Chilled has anything to do with anything. But speaking of it, his victory over Chilled doesn't change the fact that he failed against Freeza and his people died.
Dragono wrote:Bardock has been ruined since 2011.
I don't think that's the case because one year before that the sequel to the manga/original series (Dragon Ball Online) had been released, Bardock is in his peak there.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:05 pm

LightBing wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:I don't really see anything wrong with the future sight at all. It was basically a fuck you to Bardock. Here's the ability to see the future, cool right? Well all you can see is that you're gonna die, your species is gonna die, and there's nothing you can do about it. Then spends the rest of the special trying to fight that fate while everyone laughs at him, and he fails pretty much at every turn possible. The future sight was the equivalent of having someone constantly whisper in your ear "You're gonna die. You're fucked" over and over and over again. The only solace was his son who he thought sucked hard would confront Freeza...which even then didn't mean he would be the one to put him down...which he wasn't...since that was Trunks.
It was to screw Bardock, like the Kanassian said. Unfortunately in the final moments they took it all back by giving Bardock hope.
Had the Kanassian not done it Bardock's death would have likely been much more miserable in the end, even if the trip there wouldn't be as bad, since he would have died helpless. That final vision is a bittersweat ending to a character that shouldn't have one, the special contradicts itself because of this.

The future-sight thingy is the worst thing about the special.
I disagree. Bardock wouldn't have known jack shit if not for it. Woulda just gone off with his crew to Planet Meat, and then just died there at the hands of Dodoria. Seeing it torture him over and over again was a highlight of the special. The ultimate middle finger. Bardock gets the power Freeza was interested in (Unless I remember it wrong. Pretty sure he heard a rumor about it at least), and it's only there to show him how fucked he is and not help him in any way. I don't mind the bittersweet ending, but it's fair to dislike it for your reasons. It's to add just a little levity to the dark story told where everything else pretty much went wrong.

I find that a million more times interesting than Bar-El personally....but it's hard to compare a 40 minute special to 16 pages....I doubt the movie will change my mind though.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Shaddy » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:06 pm

ricky84 wrote: Learn how to read, because you're making yourself look dumb:

1. Bravery and and defiance even when the odds are stacked against you is what makes Bardock's act awesome. And yes, courage and defiance are inherently masculine traits.

2. I never said muscles were exclusive to women, can't you read? And nobody said a thing about gender roles, so your argument about females hunting is completely irreverent. Nobody said group differences were absolute either, putting words in my mouth again.
I'm honestly bewildered that you can act like this.

So number 1 is...wrong. That just flat-out isn't true. Nothing about courage, defiance and manhood are directly related in any way. Women can be all of that and they are not any more "man" than before. Those are just traits that people have. Besides that, there was nothing accomplished here, and Bardock should have known that. Confronting Freeza was basically equivalent to hanging himself by the ceiling fan before he threw the death ball. Again, what's manly about that? He could see his own death coming, so would the mature reaction not be to accept this and figure out what he can do in the meantime?

Second, if muscles are not exclusive or inherent to men OR women, then there's nothing that defines them as specifically masculine, outside of your own personal (flawed) idea of what masculinity is. And gender roles totally are relevant (that's relevant, not reverent). Obviously if dying like an imbecile is what Bardock was expected of him as a man (according to you), then that was his gender-given role, no? Your only defense of any of these points is what was most common, meaning that you did indeed say those differences were absolute, otherwise they'd have no business defining your idea of what is """"inherent"""" to a gender.

Lastly, being this disrespectful to everyone who disagrees with a fabricated, outdated idea of what men and women are supposed to be, and why Bardock is somehow better at being a man for following those ideals, is probably not going to help you out in life.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Bergamo » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:06 pm

Why can't people appreciate the story of the movie. The biggest problem with the DB fanbase is when people become so overly attached to a single character that they forget about the story that's being told.

Examples of this are...
-People getting mad everytime Goku defeats a villain instead of Vegeta.
-People getting mad everytime Gohan does or does not do anything.
-People still salty that their favorite human isn't relevant in terms of power.
-This.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Shaddy » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:18 pm

It's not exactly new that people complain about something they don't like. The issue is just that everything people think was changed here was already so in Minus, it's just been brought to the forefront and blamed on the new film. The things you listed are also legitimate issues. Goku being given glory when he doesn't necessarily deserve it, Gohan just being inconsistent in terms of whether he's even supposed to be a fighter or not, and an excess of weaker characters being brought along despite their gap in power are all things that could use work.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by precita » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:49 pm

Are people seriously getting triggered over one user saying, "Bardock died like a man?" And then people accusing him of sexism?

What is this, ResetEra? C'mon guys.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Shaddy » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:04 am

I haven't said he's sexist, I don't know him afterall, but acting as if only certain actions or behavior is allowed for someone to qualify as a man is most certainly a sexist thing to do.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by alakazam^ » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:08 am

WittyUsername wrote:The Bardock in the TV special never actually went out to save his comrades. He flew over to the Planet Meat expecting to find his comrades victorious, but instead found them dead. Sure, he was upset about their deaths, but he didn’t dwell on it for too long, and he made it clear that he couldn’t care less about his son. The bottom line is that the Bardock of the TV special was a random nobody who didn’t amount to anything in the grand scheme of things, while the Bardock of Minus was not only an anomaly among the Saiyan race, but was also an important character in the grand scheme of the Dragon Ball universe, given that his actions directly led to Freeza’s eventual downfall.
He was pretty upset about Tooma's death and even used his bloody armband as a bandana... That seems pretty important...

I didn't get the impression he was an anomaly. He hadn't been home for some time, was immediately suspicious of Freeza's actions and knew they couldn't all escape because they would get caught, so he choose Goku to go. I mean, even Gine was suprised he was concerned because she had no idea what was going on.

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