Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[Bergamo]

I haven't said he's sexist, I don't know him afterall, but acting as if only certain actions or behavior is allowed for someone to qualify as a man is most certainly a sexist thing to do.

There are certain expectations for men that have existed since the beginning of society. Female warriors are extremely uncommon historically. I'm not saying this is right, but it's ignorant to act as if there's no such thing as an action that is typically seen as masculine.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Because majority of women weren't treated as people if history is anything to go by, so its no surprise there weren't many female warriors. Those expectations and actions from men are a billion percent rooted in sexism.

[Shaddy]

Oh believe me, I'm nobody to deny that societal expectations for this sort of thing exist, just that we should work against that sort of expectation since it's not a real requirement. People should be allowed to be what they want and not be called less of what they're born as for it.

Obviously in this situation it's a petty thing, but I think considering the ignorance I've seen on display in this thread as a result of this discourse it's brought to light just how much actual proper education on this stuff is needed.

That said, I'm mostly done with it. I'd love to be able to get back to proper discussion, so I'll say TIME BREAKER BARDOCK IS TRASH-TIER, THE SPECIAL IS THE ONE AND ONLY TIME BARDOCK HAS EVER BEEN AN INTERESTING CHARACTER

[PFM18]

Not sure if you guys have noticed or not, but the thread is entitled: "Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: 'Broly'" And not "A discussion on sexism."

[Jackalope89]

Oh believe me, I'm nobody to deny that societal expectations for this sort of thing exist, just that we should work against that sort of expectation since it's not a real requirement. People should be allowed to be what they want and not be called less of what they're born as for it.

Obviously in this situation it's a petty thing, but I think considering the ignorance I've seen on display in this thread as a result of this discourse it's brought to light just how much actual proper education on this stuff is needed.

That said, I'm mostly done with it. I'd love to be able to get back to proper discussion, so I'll say TIME BREAKER BARDOCK IS TRASH-TIER, THE SPECIAL IS THE ONE AND ONLY TIME BARDOCK HAS EVER BEEN AN INTERESTING CHARACTER

We'll agree to disagree. As nothing Bardock did actually mattered in the special.

Besides, the proper discussion is for the BROLY film, not an old tv special.

[The Patrolman]

Oh believe me, I'm nobody to deny that societal expectations for this sort of thing exist, just that we should work against that sort of expectation since it's not a real requirement. People should be allowed to be what they want and not be called less of what they're born as for it.

Obviously in this situation it's a petty thing, but I think considering the ignorance I've seen on display in this thread as a result of this discourse it's brought to light just how much actual proper education on this stuff is needed.

That said, I'm mostly done with it. I'd love to be able to get back to proper discussion, so I'll say TIME BREAKER BARDOCK IS TRASH-TIER, THE SPECIAL IS THE ONE AND ONLY TIME BARDOCK HAS EVER BEEN AN INTERESTING CHARACTER

We'll agree to disagree. As nothing Bardock did actually mattered in the special.

That was kinda the point of the special.

[Dragono]

And in order to fail, he has at least to try. If he doesn't even try, he won't fail, and it will ruin the character badly. So you see, his stand cannot be denied even in the wildest dreams. It has to happen.

he already failed when he lost to dodroia and like i said him beating Chilled already ruined this.

Bardock has been ruined since 2011 and thats a sequel to the special so you can't ignore it.

Episode of Bardock actually is pretty easy to ignore, given that it was marketed as a what-if type story. It was never meant to be the true origin of the Super Saiyan legend. It was just a silly little story that was made to promote a game.

It was a sequal. It was set to take place right after Bardock got hit the death ball.

[ricky84]

Learn how to read, because you're making yourself look dumb:

1. Bravery and and defiance even when the odds are stacked against you is what makes Bardock's act awesome. And yes, courage and defiance are inherently masculine traits.

2. I never said muscles were exclusive to women, can't you read? And nobody said a thing about gender roles, so your argument about females hunting is completely irreverent. Nobody said group differences were absolute either, putting words in my mouth again.

I'm honestly bewildered that you can act like this.

So number 1 is...wrong. That just flat-out isn't true. Nothing about courage, defiance and manhood are directly related in any way. Women can be all of that and they are not any more "man" than before. Those are just traits that people have. Besides that, there was nothing accomplished here, and Bardock should have known that. Confronting Freeza was basically equivalent to hanging himself by the ceiling fan before he threw the death ball. Again, what's manly about that? He could see his own death coming, so would the mature reaction not be to accept this and figure out what he can do in the meantime?

Second, if muscles are not exclusive or inherent to men OR women, then there's nothing that defines them as specifically masculine, outside of your own personal (flawed) idea of what masculinity is. And gender roles totally are relevant (that's relevant, not reverent). Obviously if dying like an imbecile is what Bardock was expected of him as a man (according to you), then that was his gender-given role, no? Your only defense of any of these points is what was most common, meaning that you did indeed say those differences were absolute, otherwise they'd have no business defining your idea of what is """"inherent"""" to a gender.

Lastly, being this disrespectful to everyone who disagrees with a fabricated, outdated idea of what men and women are supposed to be, and why Bardock is somehow better at being a man for following those ideals, is probably not going to help you out in life.

You are in denial of biology and common sense. And again you keep projecting nonsense about me.

Bravery and defiance are hormone driven traits (particularly testosterone, a male hormone). That's what makes it inherently masculine, same with muscles. Just because brave, muscular and defiant women exist don't mean those traits aren't masculine. Logic 101

Also, Bardock was completely out of options in his situation. He stood no chance against Freeza and had no way of escaping him and his army, so he decided to die fighting.

Again, I never said a thing about gender roles nor did i say anything about what men and women ought to be, you brought it up. Like a typical SJW, you get triggered by the mere suggestion of there being any inherent differences between men and women, as if we are blank-slates (we're not). I define manhood and womanhood the same way anyone with common sense does: based on what is actually displayed by males and females as groups. And for the record, masculinity and femininity are objective realities rooted in biology. You can't redefine manhood and womanhood into whatever you want, that's post-modern nonsense.

[ricky84]

he already failed when he lost to dodroia and like i said him beating Chilled already ruined this.

Bardock has been ruined since 2011 and thats a sequel to the special so you can't ignore it.

Episode of Bardock actually is pretty easy to ignore, given that it was marketed as a what-if type story. It was never meant to be the true origin of the Super Saiyan legend. It was just a silly little story that was made to promote a game.

It was a sequal. It was set to take place right after Bardock got hit the death ball.

Episode of Bardock was never intended to be an official anything. It is nothing more than a what-if tie in for Dragonball Heroes (that's why its never been official dubbed nor released outside of Japan). DBH is filled with time travel stuff, Bardock was sent to the past because of Mira and Towa. Even the manga adaption by Naho Ooishi outright says at the beginning that it is just a fun, what-if story for the game, not an official sequel to the 90s special. Yet the western fandom (as usual) took it way too seriously smh.

[ricky84]

Because majority of women weren't treated as people if history is anything to go by, so its no surprise there weren't many female warriors. Those expectations and actions from men are a billion percent rooted in sexism.

Have you ever considered the fact that men on average having more physical strength being the main reason why there are fewer female warriors at any given time period?

And for the record, the majority of men weren't treated as people throughout history either. If you weren't an aristocrat of some kind, you were seen as trash.

[Grimlock]

[It is nothing more than a what-if tie in for Dragonball Heroes (that's why its never been official dubbed nor released outside of Japan).

No, Episode of Bardock was never dubbed because that's the treatment Dragon Ball's OVAs get. Hatchiyack's and Tarble's OVAs also weren't dubbed and they have nothing to do with Dragon Ball Heroes. Those OVAs were never dubbed because Toei has no intention of releasing them overseas.

DBH is filled with time travel stuff, Bardock was sent to the past because of Mira and Towa.

Only in Xenoverse 2. We don't know if Ooishi Naho even knew Mira and Towa back when she drew the manga, as they were only in Dragon Ball Online at that time.

Even the manga adaption by Naho Ooishi outright says at the beginning that it is just a fun, what-if story for the game, not an official sequel to the 90s special.

No, she says it's a what-if story but an actual connection to Heroes has never been made actually. A vague collaboration was all the was said at the time but unlike Heroes anime, Episode of Bardock was never called a promotional material for Heroes. Conversely, yes, Episode of Bardock is meant to be a sequel to the original TV Special.

[PFM18]

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Yeah dude you can't be triple posting like that. Shouldn't even be double posting for that matter

Can we please get back on track?

[ricky84]

Why can't people appreciate the story of the movie. The biggest problem with the DB fanbase is when people become so overly attached to a single character that they forget about the story that's being told.

Examples of this are...
-People getting mad everytime Goku defeats a villain instead of Vegeta.
-People getting mad everytime Gohan does or does not do anything.
-People still salty that their favorite human isn't relevant in terms of power.
-This.

1. The problem is that Goku often steals the glory when he doesn't deserve it. Revival of F is the biggest example of this. The whole Whis rewinds time thing was so stupid and unnecessary. They should he just let Vegeta kill Freeza and end the film.

2. The problem with Gohan after the Cell Games is how inconsistent the writers are with whether or not he's gonna be a fighter. What's the point of hyping him "regaining his potential" if not gonna accomplish anything with it?

3. I actually agree with here. Outside of the tournament arcs from Early DB, the humans were never useful or relevant as fighters, especially Yamcha.

4. Numerous people have pointed out the problems with the trailer that do concern the story itself. I don't feel the need to repeat them again.

[ssj3kakarot]

Because majority of women weren't treated as people if history is anything to go by, so its no surprise there weren't many female warriors. Those expectations and actions from men are a billion percent rooted in sexism.

You are correct in saying that women weren't treated farily, throughout history. However, thats kinda the point as far as why there weren't many female warriors. It's called biology. Men are better when it comes to combat, biologically, than compared to women. Or compare men vs women in sports. Men are superior. The problem is many people mistake that for meaning men are better than women, across every spectrum. I am not implying that.

But in a battle, we want to put our best fighters in the ring. That would be a man. Science proves this, not our opinions. The reason why women have been treated poorly, is because many men have abused that biological advantage, similarly to how a big kid bullies the smaller kids because his size.

I think so many "expectations' that have been placed on men or women are heavily based on their biology. The man should protect, or build something. Why? Because he is physically suited better for the task. That's why saying " He died like a man" isn't an insult to women, but a badge of honor to men. They were suppose to protect their loved ones with their very life.

So when Bardock attacks Frieza, he does so with honor, and most likely a good case of the Mondays! Death ball to the face!

[Shaddy]

I think so many "expectations' that have been placed on men or women are heavily based on their biology. The man should protect, or build something. Why? Because he is physically suited better for the task. That's why saying " He died like a man" isn't an insult to women, but a badge of honor to men. They were suppose to protect their loved ones with their very life.

That only counts so far as the person you're supposedly "honoring" has the same definition of what manliness is as you. And in Bardock's case, I'm sure it does! But then, whether the specific instance of such things here in this thread matters has always been a "no" for me. Regardless, I think you gotta consider that not everyone is able to do the things that are expected of their gender for one reason or another and thus defining their gender only by those traits and saying they count less as that gender is totally something to avoid.

We'll agree to disagree. As nothing Bardock did actually mattered in the special.

But of course. That still doesn't stop Time Breaker Bardock from being completely stupid. He should just stay dead.

Bravery and defiance are hormone driven traits (particularly testosterone, a male hormone). That's what makes it inherently masculine, same with muscles. Just because brave, muscular and defiant women exist don't mean those traits aren't masculine. Logic 101

In literally what way? You haven't explained a single thing. There's no logic to saying a trait that potentially involves aspects of male biology but doesn't require it is specific to men. You've done nothing but insult me and stroke your own ego like a child.

Also, Bardock was completely out of options in his situation. He stood no chance against Freeza and had no way of escaping him and his army, so he decided to die fighting.

At what point could he not have left? Obviously it worked for his son. He could have grabbed as many people he could carry and forced then to leave if he had to. What's Freeza gonna do? Postpone killing an entire planet because maybe seven power levels left? And if there really is no escape, then he could have done literally anything and it makes no difference, you're only playing his jumping headfirst into death into your own borked idea of manliness to spin things in your favor.

Again, I never said a thing about gender roles nor did i say anything about what men and women ought to be, you brought it up.

Literally the entire idea of categorically-defined "manliness" is based on extrapolating stereotypes into some twisted idea of the prerequisites toward "qualifying" for a given gender.

Like a typical SJW, you get triggered by the mere suggestion of there being any inherent differences between men and women, as if we are
blank-slates (we're not).

Lol. Funny how you accuse me of projection and bring this edginess to the table. Guess you thought saying that would cover your own ass huh?

I define manhood and womanhood the same way anyone with common sense does: based on with is actually displayed by males and females as groups.

Pretty sure most sensible people don't judge those they meet on whether they're allowed to count as being their own gender or not based on whether they fulfill stereotypes. I tend to classify individuals as individuals. Men are as manly as whether they identify as men, bottom line. Judge people's actions, not some fake idea of whether they deserve to be the gender they identify as.

And for the record, masculinity and femininity are objective realities rooted in biology. You can't redefine manhood and womanhood into whatever you want, that's post-modern nonsense.

That's literally what you're doing right now. Literally nothing is written into anyone's biology that says that if their planet is dying they'll attack the person doing it instead of choosing the logical way out just because they're a man. Do you just hate men or something? Every man I know is smarter than that.


You know, last time someone talked to me about "manliness" was in high school when I was getting bullied for having long hair and watching the faggy girl cartoons! It's good to see you're looking to carry on their legacy.

[ricky84]

[It is nothing more than a what-if tie in for Dragonball Heroes (that's why its never been official dubbed nor released outside of Japan).

No, Episode of Bardock was never dubbed because that's the treatment Dragon Ball's OVAs get. Hatchiyack's and Tarble's OVAs also weren't dubbed and they have nothing to do with Dragon Ball Heroes. Those OVAs were never dubbed because Toei has no intention of releasing them overseas.

DBH is filled with time travel stuff, Bardock was sent to the past because of Mira and Towa.

Only in Xenoverse 2. We don't know if Ooishi Naho even knew Mira and Towa back when she drew the manga, as they were only in Dragon Ball Online at that time.

Even the manga adaption by Naho Ooishi outright says at the beginning that it is just a fun, what-if story for the game, not an official sequel to the 90s special.

No, she says it's a what-if story but an actual connection to Heroes has never been made actually. A vague collaboration was all the was said at the time but unlike Heroes anime, Episode of Bardock was never called a promotional material for Heroes. Conversely, yes, Episode of Bardock is meant to be a sequel to the original TV Special.

Completely wrong. Episode of Bardock was obviously made for DB Heroes and this was explicitly made clear in Japan:
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon ... of_Bardock
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... roduction/

Dragonball Heroes was already out for over a year before Episode of Bardock was written.

[ricky84]

We'll agree to disagree. As nothing Bardock did actually mattered in the special.

But of course. That still doesn't stop Time Breaker Bardock from being completely stupid. He should just stay dead.

Bravery and defiance are hormone driven traits (particularly testosterone, a male hormone). That's what makes it inherently masculine, same with muscles. Just because brave, muscular and defiant women exist don't mean those traits aren't masculine. Logic 101

In literally what way? You haven't explained a single thing. There's no logic to saying a trait that potentially involves aspects of male biology but doesn't require it is specific to men. You've done nothing but insult me and stroke your own ego like a child.

Also, Bardock was completely out of options in his situation. He stood no chance against Freeza and had no way of escaping him and his army, so he decided to die fighting.

At what point could he not have left? Obviously it worked for his son. He could have grabbed as many people he could carry and forced then to leave if he had to. What's Freeza gonna do? Postpone killing an entire planet because maybe seven power levels left? And if there really is no escape, then he could have done literally anything and it makes no difference, you're only playing his jumping headfirst into death into your own borked idea of manliness to spin things in your favor.

Again, I never said a thing about gender roles nor did i say anything about what men and women ought to be, you brought it up.

Literally the entire idea of categorically-defined "manliness" is based on extrapolating stereotypes into some twisted idea of the prerequisites toward "qualifying" for a given gender.

Like a typical SJW, you get triggered by the mere suggestion of there being any inherent differences between men and women, as if we are
blank-slates (we're not).

Lol. Funny how you accuse me of projection and bring this edginess to the table. Guess you thought saying that would cover your own ass huh?

I define manhood and womanhood the same way anyone with common sense does: based on with is actually displayed by males and females as groups.

Pretty sure most sensible people don't judge those they meet on whether they're allowed to count as being their own gender or not based on whether they fulfill stereotypes. I tend to classify individuals as individuals. Men are as manly as whether they identify as men, bottom line. Judge people's actions, not some fake idea of whether they deserve to be the gender they identify as.

And for the record, masculinity and femininity are objective realities rooted in biology. You can't redefine manhood and womanhood into whatever you want, that's post-modern nonsense.

That's literally what you're doing right now. Literally nothing is written into anyone's biology that says that if their planet is dying they'll attack the person doing it instead of choosing the logical way out just because they're a man. Do you just hate men or something? Every man I know is smarter than that.


You know, last time someone talked to me about "manliness" was in high school when I was getting bullied for having long hair and watching the faggy girl cartoons! It's good to see you're looking to carry on their legacy.

1. I literally just explained why those traits are masculine yet you still play ignorance smh.

2. That's a bad argument lmao. Goku was already sent to Earth days before Freeza and his army came to blow up the planets. And let me ask you something, what would you do if you were in Bardock's shoes and couldn't escape? And don't forget the fact that Bardock didn't believe in the future visions until it was too late, and none of the other saiyans believed in his warnings.

3. Ad Hominem

4. WTF? I am judging people's actions, and in reality, some actions are masculine and/or feminine. You are making a false dichotomy. And the reason stereotypes even exist is because the are usually true on average, they're not pulled out of people's asses.

5. That is the most ridiculous response I've ever read lmao.

A) Bardock had no other opinions in his situation, its either die fighting or die doing nothing.
B) Its the personality traits exhibited in people's actions that show how masculine and/or feminine they are, more so than the acts themselves.

[sintzu]

Are people seriously getting triggered over one user saying, "Bardock died like a man?" And then people accusing him of sexism?

Those are SJWs for you.

[Shaddy]

1. I literally just explained why those traits are masculine yet you still play ignorance smh.

You actually didn't. You explained why they were more common, but there's no actual tangible link between that and such things somehow just being "guy things". It's like saying Sonic is a Nintendo game just cause he has the most titles on their products.

2. That's a bad argument lmao. Goku was already sent to Earth days before Freeza and his army came to blow up the planets. And let me ask you something, what would you do if you were in Bardock's shoes and couldn't escape? And don't forget the fact that Bardock didn't believe in the future visions until it was too late, and none of the other saiyans believed in his warnings.

I can't reliably say what I'd do, it's a situation so far removed from reality that no person can actually predict their own behavior when it's all a physical impossibility. I don't know what's possible on planet Vegeta, or even what saiyans can reliably do (they can fly, Goku breathes in space in Battle of Gods, so could I, with my knowledge of Dragon Ball, fly off the planet through space?), so the inconsistencies in Dragon Ball's overall story make it hard for me to approximate, as it would for anyone. Most westerners in the past centuries have adjusted to safer lifestyles meaning the threat of total destruction isn't a concept we can often fully grasp, so truthfully very few know exactly what action they would take, and those who do often don't live to tell the tale.

3. Ad Hominem

What you did was by insult me and misrepresent my point instead of actually responding to it. I responded with an image satirizing this shitty practice. That's not ad hominem. At no point did I claim to be above you or correct based on who you are. The most I've said is that you're being close-minded and disrespectful, but those aren't what makes you wrong here, just what makes me unhappy with your personality.

4. WTF? I am judging people's actions, and in reality, some actions are masculine and/or feminine. You are making a false dichotomy. And the reason stereotypes even exist is because the are usually true on average, they're not pulled out of people's asses.

Uh no? Stereotypes are based on small truths about specific individuals or pieces or a much larger group being inflated and passed along to the point that they misrepresent that group as a whole. It has nothing to do with statistics, it's all based on communication spread. There's no decision made by a man couldn't also be made by a woman, actions are just actions. And either way, you're supposed to disregard and avoid stereotypes! They make you assume things about people that often aren't true in the slightest! They're bad!

A) Bardock had no other opinions in his situation, its either die fighting or die doing nothing.

Again that's your conjecture. You nor I can't say that stealing a ship or something was completely impossible, that he couldn't have handled his attack differently to affect Freeza on a grander level, or hell even that planet Vegeta didn't have a God like Earth or Namek who could protect people, that's just not anything in the text. The fact is Bardock made a decision, and that decision was to die. That he threw an energy ball in the midst of that is irrelevant to me.

B) Its the personality traits exhibited in people's actions that show how masculine and/or feminine they are, more so than the acts themselves.

Still wrong, because those personality traits are in no way exclusive to any gender, meaning that calling them masculine or feminine at all is immediately ignoring a minority, even a large minority, that possess the same traits but not the same gender.

[ricky84]

snip

At this point it becomes clear that you are incapable of basic logic smh.

1. I never said any trait was exclusive to men or women, yet you keep saying I am.
2. Actions speak louder than words, and the fact that certain actions and behaviors more common with one sex than the other says a lot.
3. The belief that stereotypes are wrong and harmful is itself a stereotype about stereotypes lmao.

I'm done with this. Back to the main topic.