Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1024
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Rakurai » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:06 pm

Rakurai wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
Speaking of Raditz, from what I’ve heard about this movie, are we to assume that Raditz knew the reason Goku was sent to Earth, but simply didn’t care to tell him the truth? It seems like it’s either that or Gine for some reason didn’t tell him the reason they sent Goku to Earth.
There's no further clarification in the film than what there was in the Minus special. Gine cries after Bardock sends Goku off, next thing we see is planet gets eradicated while she's chopping meat.
I need to make a correction to this statement.

Raditz does mention that Gine told him that she sent Goku out to space before the planet exploded. This wasn't a big deal to me at the time so I didn't recall it immediately until talking to my friends about it again.

User avatar
Cetra
I Live Here
Posts: 3856
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:01 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Cetra » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:20 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote:You can disagree but there’s nothing that definitively proves what you’re saying as your argument is comparing a failed to a correct, and there’s nothing implying that they must work the same, infact it’s the opposite in universe.
No, its not the opposite in-universe and I already mentioned that. If one person says something and another element of explanation gets added on later then the most logical conclusion is to combined it with the last previous information as long as this is somehow manageable Piccolo commenting on 30 mins of fusion time is absolutely manageable to combine with a cooldown. A Failure freeing you from the cooldown would require another piece of information to be given for a definite derivation that would say so. "Piccolo mentioned 30 minutes" is not enough simply for the very reason that it is easily combined with the vol. 41 information, the author not noticing things ot the likes of it. But I have already said that so I don't know why I am even mentioning it again. All I am saying is if in-universe the opposite would be pointed to then it would definitely be what I would acknowledge more but it doesn't say that. You can't acknowledge new information and then say "well, I guess the last one means THAT in particular then without acknowledging the new information". There is not enough for that in the story to be unequivocal and thus it would require us too have exactly the power that you in the rest of the post even mentioned we do not have. We have to acknowledge everything.
We can decide to not agree with this, but in this series he has a hell of a lot more authority than any of us fans.
I am the first one in this forum who says exactly that but I am also not the one "deciding" anything with my post. I deny being selective when possible and if that means that their is an ambiguity or narrative inconsistency then that's that.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy

feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"

Nickolaidas
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1025
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:56 pm

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Nickolaidas » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:46 pm

Saw the movie (illegally, since my country won't get a screening). Better than I expected, worse than I hoped. As others stated, there's no real sense of agency, but that's probably due to the fact that almost everyone knew the plot and the outcome before seeing it (which is why I was a lot more interested in the anime than the movies, since it was easier not to spoil myself there).

Basically I agree 100% with everything animejay said in his non-spoiler-version of his review. Great spectacle, no sense of agency, an awesome Frieza (I really like him as a puppetmaster, but the dude HAS to learn to be patient and not enact a plan the second it hatches from his head - did he not learn anything from RoF?). I like the new Broly, although him going apeshit right from the beginning made little sense to me.


We now have an alien Bulma. Cheelay is indeed, Bulma but instead of a scientist, she's a thief. No probs. It's good that the Frieza Force is again beginning to have named characters instead of nameless mooks who die after 1-20 minutes. I really hope in the new series we'll see more of them.


There is some sort of parallel symbolism throughout the film which simply eludes me. The Broly/Goku relation symbolism is there, but I don't see it. The Frieza/Bulma 5cm/year tiny difference wish relation symbolism is there, but I don't see it.


This is the first movie where the Z FIghters' absence was felt, especially after their work in the ToP. Gohan, the androids and Krillin were especially missed, but since the only enemy was Broly, it was unlikely they could do anything.

Also: Why in the hell was the camera constantly zooming in on eyes and mouths throughout the ENTIRE.FREAKIN.FILM!?

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 3569
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by emperior » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:19 am

Nickolaidas wrote: There is some sort of parallel symbolism throughout the film which simply eludes me. The Broly/Goku relation symbolism is there, but I don't see it. The Frieza/Bulma 5cm/year tiny difference wish relation symbolism is there, but I don't see it.
I think the symbolism between Goku and Broly is just that they are kind of similar in which they are both pure-hearted.

The symbolism I found was between Paragus and Freeza, in which the movie sort of showed them to be similar in that they don’t give a damn about killing someone if it’s for their own gain, which also demonstrates how the Saiyans were never good people at all.
It is also shown how both Vegeta and his father have the kind of mentality that people will never change and have to be dealt with using rough methods (see how Vegeta doesn’t trust Freeza a bit, and was going for the kill on Broly) unlike Goku who always tries to see the good and the redeemable qualities (as he does with both Broly and Freeza, and as he’s always done before).

This behaviour of Goku is also in contrast to his late father’s, who sent him to Earth deeming him a weakling, in true Saiyan’s nature, almost as a way to have a little win over Freeza if he were to kill all the Saiyans.
It’s also reiterated when Raditz doesn’t give a damn about his brother because of his power - again, that scene when the survivor Saiyans are shown not to give a single fuck that their race has been wiped out truly shows just what kind of bastards the Saiyans were.
Maybe it’s implied that the Saiyans were like that not because of their nature but because of their culture, which is why Goku and Broly are so different from the average Saiyan?

I am sure the theme of the movie could have been conveyed better. We know that the original script was originally much longer, so I wonder if some stuff was cut that would have made the story feel more cohesive.

As for Bulma and Freeza, I thought their wishes being so similar was just a way to further emphasise the ridiculousness of Freeza’s wish.
What I consider the Dragon Ball canon

Favorite Dragon Ball Arcs

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1024
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Rakurai » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:45 am

I really dislike how Goku calls himself "Kakarot" at the end. It's frankly a huge step back to his character as Son Goku, the Saiyan who was raised on Earth.

It's one thing when Vegeta calls him that out of pride for Saiyan culture, it's another thing to ask people to refer you as that.

I don't understand why this had to be added. Was Toriyama really trying to contrast the new film to the old one with these anti-parallels? Goku said his name isn't Kakarotto, it's Goku in M8 so now he had to do the opposite to defy fan expectations or bring something new? This isn't as huge of a blow to Frieza as his stupid 5 cm wish but it's still distasteful.

User avatar
Grimlock
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5482
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Conton City

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Grimlock » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:53 am

Goku says "I'm not Kakarot, my name is Goku and I'm form Earth" in every movie whose villain calls him "Kakarot" and it is his most recognisable line in pre-battle dialogues from video-games. That has nothing to do with Movie 8 especially. It's just another movie where Goku says the same old thing.
Games - You are weak. Why are you weak?
Dragon Ball Super - *coughes*
Games - Because you lack... Content.

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 3569
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by emperior » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:58 am

I liked Goku addressing himself as Kakarot. It was a cool character moment for him to find a new sense of pride for his origins.
What I consider the Dragon Ball canon

Favorite Dragon Ball Arcs

User avatar
Forte224
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:56 pm

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Forte224 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:00 pm

emperior wrote:I liked Goku addressing himself as Kakarot. It was a cool character moment for him to find a new sense of pride for his origins.
Yeah I'm not seeing the problem with it. Goku isn't the type to really get worked up about where he's from or what his real name is anyway. I'm honestly surprised he hasn't mentioned the name "Kakarot" before. I like the moment too.

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1024
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Rakurai » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:20 pm

Grimlock wrote:Goku says "I'm not Kakarot, my name is Goku and I'm form Earth" in every movie whose villain calls him "Kakarot" and it is his most recognisable line in pre-battle dialogues from video-games. That has nothing to do with Movie 8 especially. It's just another movie where Goku says the same old thing.
I know that, but it's still a contrast to his line in M8. And it's very OOC with who he is portrayed in the series.
Forte224 wrote: Yeah I'm not seeing the problem with it. Goku isn't the type to really get worked up about where he's from or what his real name is anyway. I'm honestly surprised he hasn't mentioned the name "Kakarot" before. I like the moment too.
This isn't about how people refer him or what they think of him. It's about how he presents himself.

Cheelay asks who he is, and he says "I'm Kakarot." Not "I'm Son Goku, otherwise known as Kakarot." Not "I'm a Saiyan just like Broly named Son Goku."

On Namek, Goku got the Saiyan lecture from Vegeta, and he didn't care about any of that avenging Saiyans shit. He proclaims to Frieza "I am the legendary Super Saiyan, Son Goku!" No Kakarot necessary. That right there is a perfect balance of acknowledging and embracing his Saiyan origins while keeping his Earth heritage.

He's essentially disavowing the name his only father figure gave him in that scene. It's character regression, and why I find it bad and distasteful.

User avatar
YamiGoku
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by YamiGoku » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:02 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Grimlock wrote:Goku says "I'm not Kakarot, my name is Goku and I'm form Earth" in every movie whose villain calls him "Kakarot" and it is his most recognisable line in pre-battle dialogues from video-games. That has nothing to do with Movie 8 especially. It's just another movie where Goku says the same old thing.
I know that, but it's still a contrast to his line in M8. And it's very OOC with who he is portrayed in the series.
Forte224 wrote: Yeah I'm not seeing the problem with it. Goku isn't the type to really get worked up about where he's from or what his real name is anyway. I'm honestly surprised he hasn't mentioned the name "Kakarot" before. I like the moment too.
This isn't about how people refer him or what they think of him. It's about how he presents himself.

Cheelay asks who he is, and he says "I'm Kakarot." Not "I'm Son Goku, otherwise known as Kakarot." Not "I'm a Saiyan just like Broly named Son Goku."

On Namek, Goku got the Saiyan lecture from Vegeta, and he didn't care about any of that avenging Saiyans shit. He proclaims to Frieza "I am the legendary Super Saiyan, Son Goku!" No Kakarot necessary. That right there is a perfect balance of acknowledging and embracing his Saiyan origins while keeping his Earth heritage.

He's essentially disavowing the name his only father figure gave him in that scene. It's character regression, and why I find it bad and distasteful.

He just embraced his saiyan name, that doesn't change the fact that he is also Son Goku, the saiyan raised on earth, he just found in Broly something Good about his lost race that make him realise that not all pure saiyans are born A-holes.

One person can have multiple sides/heritages, just because he/she embraces one side, that doesn't mean he/she abandons the other sides.

User avatar
Simere
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:28 pm

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Simere » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:20 pm

Rakurai wrote:This isn't about how people refer him or what they think of him. It's about how he presents himself.

Cheelay asks who he is, and he says "I'm Kakarot." Not "I'm Son Goku, otherwise known as Kakarot."
Perhaps I'm misreading you...but that's just what he said in Japanese. I saw you mention you saw the dub premiere, is that what you're talking about? #artisticlicense?

User avatar
BrolyKale
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:06 am

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by BrolyKale » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:58 pm

Ok so I've watched the movie, with bad subs and bad quality, but I understood the story. And I'm disappointed that Broly is not Broly anymore, he is just another character with Broly's name they could have called him Kanba instead 'cause he has nothing to do with Broly anymore... what was the point of bringing back Broly if it's not him? I mean we already had Kale for that.

But the movie isn't bad at all, I'm just not interested in this fake Broly. I'm sure people will like this new Broly because he is more sympathetic and more gentle, but that's not what I liked about Broly so... not my thing.

Ah and his transformation into Full Power is lame.
Zamasu, Broly, Mira & Fu

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 3569
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by emperior » Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:05 pm

Simere wrote:
Rakurai wrote:This isn't about how people refer him or what they think of him. It's about how he presents himself.

Cheelay asks who he is, and he says "I'm Kakarot." Not "I'm Son Goku, otherwise known as Kakarot."
Perhaps I'm misreading you...but that's just what he said in Japanese. I saw you mention you saw the dub premiere, is that what you're talking about? #artisticlicense?
I really hope they didn’t mess up that line. That would really be bad.
What I consider the Dragon Ball canon

Favorite Dragon Ball Arcs


User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1024
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Rakurai » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:53 am

Simere wrote:
Rakurai wrote:This isn't about how people refer him or what they think of him. It's about how he presents himself.

Cheelay asks who he is, and he says "I'm Kakarot." Not "I'm Son Goku, otherwise known as Kakarot."
Perhaps I'm misreading you...but that's just what he said in Japanese. I saw you mention you saw the dub premiere, is that what you're talking about? #artisticlicense?
Yeah I watched the dub premiere in LA. But truth be told I wasn't feeling very well at the time (worst day to have a headache, being in a crowded area like LA doesn't help for me) and had a hard time concentrating, so things like the Raditz cameo slipped my mind.

Actually there was so much flash during the Broly vs Gogeta battle (especially when they fight in the different dimension) that it actually hurt my head more than it entertained me, as great as the animation was.

If that's what he said in the Japanese version, then thank gosh, I'm okay with that line. It'd be extremely OOC for Goku to just refer to himself as "Ora Kakarotto-da."

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2052
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:50 am

I’m going to be honest here, Goku referring to himself as “Kakarot” isn’t something I can get behind. Yes, that’s his Saiyan name, but that’s not a name he has any personal connection to. He was raised as Son Goku. I take issue with him addressing himself as Kakarot/Kakarotto the same way I take issue with Superman identifying as Kal-El. I get that the whole “I’m not Kakarotto, I’m Son Goku” thing was a Toei idea, but I just don’t understand why Goku would ever address himself as anything other than his Earth name. From the sounds of it, it seems like it’s just an excuse for Broly to refer to him by his Saiyan name like the original Broly.

User avatar
Sora Saiyan
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 993
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:19 am
Location: Destiny Islands

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Sora Saiyan » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:11 pm

WittyUsername wrote:I’m going to be honest here, Goku referring to himself as “Kakarot” isn’t something I can get behind. Yes, that’s his Saiyan name, but that’s not a name he has any personal connection to. He was raised as Son Goku. I take issue with him addressing himself as Kakarot/Kakarotto the same way I take issue with Superman identifying as Kal-El. I get that the whole “I’m not Kakarotto, I’m Son Goku” thing was a Toei idea, but I just don’t understand why Goku would ever address himself as anything other than his Earth name. From the sounds of it, it seems like it’s just an excuse for Broly to refer to him by his Saiyan name like the original Broly.
It’s definietly just an excuse for Broly to call him that, but in the same breath I guess Goku has grown very accustomed to that name with how much time he now spends with Vegeta.
The heart may be weak. And sometimes it may even give in. But I've learned... that deep down there's a light that never goes out! -Sora

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10529
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Doctor. » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:17 pm

WittyUsername wrote:I’m going to be honest here, Goku referring to himself as “Kakarot” isn’t something I can get behind. Yes, that’s his Saiyan name, but that’s not a name he has any personal connection to. He was raised as Son Goku. I take issue with him addressing himself as Kakarot/Kakarotto the same way I take issue with Superman identifying as Kal-El. I get that the whole “I’m not Kakarotto, I’m Son Goku” thing was a Toei idea, but I just don’t understand why Goku would ever address himself as anything other than his Earth name. From the sounds of it, it seems like it’s just an excuse for Broly to refer to him by his Saiyan name like the original Broly.
I'd get behind the idea if Goku actually had any character arc in this film, but Broly's the only character that gets one. Goku's line at the end doesn't feel earned when the movie didn't even try to write the character in a way that could lead to that sort of development.

I don't necessarily have much of a problem with it because he's saying "I'm Son Goku, OR you can just call me Kakarot" to another fellow Saiyan; it's an attempt at bonding with a character that he has tried to bond with throughout the entire film (that falls short once Gogeta shows up). I'd have a bigger problem with it if he was disavowing his Earthling heritage just like, for instance, I have a problem in GT when Goku says "I'm not a Saiyan, I'm an Earthling." The key to writing Goku is knowing he accepts both, which I feel the scene does well; the problem is, again, that it comes from nowhere.

User avatar
Hulk10
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:17 pm

I kind of like that idea.
Hulk is strongest one there is. -Incredible Hulk

In the name of the mighty Legions of Predacons who preceded me I will never again bow to your charge! But I will heed your previous advice and face my true enemy AS A BEAST! -Predaking to Unicron controlled Megatron.

The arrogance of man is thinking that we are in control of our destiny. Let them fight. -Dr. Ishiro Serizawa to Admiral William Stenz.

User avatar
Simere
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:28 pm

Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Simere » Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:38 pm

Things like this are just another casualty of fusion.

Post Reply