Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[Miracles]

Why does Cheelai say that Frieza must be desperate if he was using old people and women as Frieza Army units?

The point of the statement is that Freeza is a far cry from what his unit use to be and he has gotten to the point of recruiting even elderly people as well as women who can't really make a difference. Cheelai or Lemo isn't going in and boxing with anybody from the Z Senshi. They both were there for other purposes. So her point was spot on and obviously held true throughout the movie.

I think people are being too emotionally unstable and insecure about their views and trying to finger point at Toriyama when his intention most likely isn't about promoting or attacking any outlook. The statement is just to point out that Freeza's army is a long way from the A team and is now resulted to such a low level.

[Extreme_kai]

Why does Cheelai say that Frieza must be desperate if he was using old people and women as Frieza Army units?

The point of the statement is that Freeza is a far cry from what is unit use to be and he has gotten to the point of recruiting even elderly people as well as women who can't really make a difference. Cheelai or Lemo isn't going in and boxing with anybody from the Z Senshi. They both were there for other purposes. So her point was spot on and obviously held true throughout the movie.

I think people are being too emotionally unstable and insecure about their views and trying to finger point at Toriyama when his intention most likely isn't about promoting or attacking any outlook. The statement is just to point out that Freeza's army is a long way from the A team and is now resulted to such a low level.

I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment, but was Cheelai even recruited? I thought she snuck in. The only problem I have with the statement about old people and women is that they don't technically have to be on the front line. Cheelai and Lemo were out on scouting mission which can be just as beneficial to an army as foot soldiers, I mean they did find Broly after all. What about Berriblu (best character in the movie)? Isn't she some kinda nanny and I'm sure there is a female scientist, I think we saw a female scientist Saiyan in the movie. As some others have said before, the Dragonball universe seems to run on Ningen humanoid rules were most of the time males are stronger than females, although if you look in many non-mammalian species it's the opposite, some have no males at all. Powerful male/male-like aliens (Freeza and Piccolo aren't technically male in a human sense) and weaker female/female-like alien species.

I'll just say this, as a female DB fan I personally am perfectly ok with the lack of female representation, because whenever they try to make them they come out terrible imo. The only female characters I actually liked are DBZ18 and Videl, and Bulma but I still prefer the male ones by a large margin. Unfortunately for 18 she's got the shaft after having a kid, but I liked her character a lot in Z, same goes for Videl. Bulma is great for what she is as a smart scientist woman and has proved to be a major asset in the protection of the planet. She might not be on the front lines kicking ass, but she's always helping out by creating time machines, the dragon radar, etc. Honestly, I don't know why anyone would want to see more female characters written by an alleged "sexist". My opinion is, if you can't do it right, don't do it at all. This is why I gravitate towards the sexless alien species because they lack the crappy female writing.

[Luso Saiyan]

Yes. Sexism exists in Toriyama's work. It is a thing.

The quote in question is not sexist at all. Not only is it a broad statement, but in general terms, it's a perfectly logical concept. Old people tend to me more frail and women don't usually have the bulk and endurance that a man does. That Freeza has to resort to them means he's not having the ideal army he intended. That doesn't mean he can't have women and old people in the army, nor does it mean there are no strong/powerful women and old people.

[Shaddy]

The quote in question is not sexist at all. Not only is it a broad statement, but in general terms, it's a perfectly logical concept. Old people tend to me more frail and women don't usually have the bulk and endurance that a man does. That Freeza has to resort to them means he's not having the ideal army he intended. That doesn't mean he can't have women and old people in the army, nor does it mean there are no strong/powerful women and old people.

I think people are being too emotionally unstable and insecure about their views and trying to finger point at Toriyama when his intention most likely isn't about promoting or attacking any outlook. The statement is just to point out that Freeza's army is a long way from the A team and is now resulted to such a low level.

Besides the mischaracterization of pointing out a response to slightly dialogue as "emotionally unstable", they could just as easily have done that with just having old and weak people in the army. Is there really any need to bring in "AND ALSO THE WEAK WOMEN" too, when we just got done with a story arc where some of the strongest fighters were women? And let it not be forgotten that most Freeza soldiers just seem to use guns anyway, and even the men are constantly one-shotted by most of the cast regardless. Hell, we already knew they were scraping the bottom of the barrel in RoF, what new information is even communicated by this line other than "oh right, this series is made by a bitter 63 year old Japanese dude in a tracksuit"?

The opinion is old people and women shouldn't be fighting in the army, not be enemies, which is a very common opinion based mainly on physical capabilities, not sexism. There are strong female fighters in the series. Plenty of them.

I feel that it's kind of backwards to posit how many strong female fighters there are in the main series (a total of uh, one that's still potentially viable before the ToP arc?) while also saying it's justifiable that this entire gender is somehow also not strong enough to be in the army. At least it could be justified in-universe by saying Freeza is a misogynistic douche, but it's Cheelai saying it for herself.

[WittyUsername]

Yes. Sexism exists in Toriyama's work. It is a thing.

The quote in question is not sexist at all. Not only is it a broad statement, but in general terms, it's a perfectly logical concept. Old people tend to me more frail and women don't usually have the bulk and endurance that a man does. That Freeza has to resort to them means he's not having the ideal army he intended. That doesn't mean he can't have women and old people in the army, nor does it mean there are no strong/powerful women and old people.

In all fairness, the Dragon Ball franchise has regularly shown that bulk isn’t necessarily important for being a good fighter. If anything, being overly bulky is apparently a hindrance to a person’s fighting capabilities, so I’m not sure that argument really works all that well.

Still, I can’t really say that I’m personally offended by that line. While the franchise does seem to have gotten better at female representation in recent years, it’s still geared towards boys at the end of the day, and it’s not like Japan is really known to be progressive.

I feel that it's kind of backwards to posit how many strong female fighters there are in the main series (a total of uh, one that's still potentially viable before the ToP arc?) while also saying it's justifiable that this entire gender is somehow also not strong enough to be in the army. At least it could be justified in-universe by saying Freeza is a misogynistic douche, but it's Cheelai saying it for herself.

I have to admit, in all my years of being a fan of Dragon Ball, misogyny is probably one of the last things I would’ve ever associated with Freeza, though that’s mainly because he had never been shown interacting with a female character prior to RF, as well as the fact that I don’t think it’s ever really been clear as to whether or not female members of his race even exist.

[Shaddy]

Still, I can’t really say that I’m personally offended by that line. While the franchise does seem to have gotten better at female representation in recent years, it’s still geared towards boys at the end of the day, and it’s not like Japan is really known to be progressive.

Not that you were necessarily implying this, but I'm not personally offended by it. I'm just pointing out that it is a reflection of a known trait of Toriyama's that happens to be unfortunate, and I think people far too often try to rationalize and act like those unfortunate traits aren't there, though that lies much more on the sexual comedy and general writing of the female characters than it does their presence in battle. This is incredibly mild by his standards, just another statistic, compared to something like Lady Red or all the shit with Roshi.

I have to admit, in all my years of being a fan of Dragon Ball, misogyny is probably one of the last things I would’ve ever associated with Freeza, though that’s mainly because he had never been shown interacting with a female character prior to RF, as well as the fact that I don’t think it’s ever really been clear as to whether or not female members of his race even exist.

A fair point, it never really been touched upon so either way would seem workable to me. It actually might be kind of a neat trait having him actually be kind of chivalrous and we just didn't know it, would add to the "deceptively polite" shtick, and god knows this series' villains could use a bit of fleshing-out beyond their malicious goals (and including those, in the case of Cell and Buu).

[zarmack]

Besides, the guy just introduced two new characters with unique and original designs (same for the previous two movies he was involved in) and somehow "diversity in character design" is being affected?

Okay fine, potential character design diversity. It's just not the kind of thing you want to hear in a series that already has a lot of similar antagonists.

Casual sexism? Really?

Yes. Sexism exists in Toriyama's work. It is a thing. Not a surprising one, or a unique one. Not one that necessarily cripples everything he does, but one that should be acknowledged nonetheless. You don't have to hate the series or it's creator for it, I certainly don't, but it exists and we shouldn't pretend it doesn't.

This comment is offhanded and essentially meaningless in the dialogue and context of this movie, true. But it doesn't take that much effort to see where it plays in the rest of Dragon Ball as a franchise, and what it could represent in the greater context of how Toriyama writes is evident.

It's his creation, how he imagined his world, there's nothing wrong basing it on his own opinions.

Yeah but if your opinion is "women and old people are weak and shouldn't be enemies" it kinda hurts your series' potential for worldbuilding and diversity (which is a staple of DB in it's own right, but whatever) and how it's perceived by others. And honestly, I don't think Dragon Ball as a franchise is smart enough to juxtapose this with Cheelai and Lemo respectively being a woman and an old person, especially given that they aren't involved in the combat nor are even really antagonists.

Not this again .

Sexism is the belief that one gender is inferior/superior in value to the other. Acknowledging innate differences between men and women (like average strength) isn't sexism, its common-sense. And I don't see anything in DB that states/implies that women are of lesser value than men or vice-versa. You sound like the type of person who'd be offended when a guy points out a fact like men are taller than women on average.

And Freeza's race is asexual, so I doubt he even cares about males & females of other species.

[zarmack]

I'll just say this, as a female DB fan I personally am perfectly ok with the lack of female representation, because whenever they try to make them they come out terrible imo. The only female characters I actually liked are DBZ18 and Videl, and Bulma but I still prefer the male ones by a large margin.

What's wrong with Vados, Caulifla, Future Mai and A21 characterization wise? I thought they were great. Chichi sucks though, and so does GT Pan. Kale is alright, and so is Launch, Ribrianne and her friends.

To be honest, most female characters in Shonen anime/manga are either mediocre or they just plain suck like Sakura from Naruto.

[supersaiyanZero]

The quote in question is not sexist at all. Not only is it a broad statement, but in general terms, it's a perfectly logical concept. Old people tend to me more frail and women don't usually have the bulk and endurance that a man does. That Freeza has to resort to them means he's not having the ideal army he intended. That doesn't mean he can't have women and old people in the army, nor does it mean there are no strong/powerful women and old people.

I think people are being too emotionally unstable and insecure about their views and trying to finger point at Toriyama when his intention most likely isn't about promoting or attacking any outlook. The statement is just to point out that Freeza's army is a long way from the A team and is now resulted to such a low level.

Besides the mischaracterization of pointing out a response to slightly dialogue as "emotionally unstable", they could just as easily have done that with just having old and weak people in the army. Is there really any need to bring in "AND ALSO THE WEAK WOMEN" too, when we just got done with a story arc where some of the strongest fighters were women? And let it not be forgotten that most Freeza soldiers just seem to use guns anyway, and even the men are constantly one-shotted by most of the cast regardless. Hell, we already knew they were scraping the bottom of the barrel in RoF, what new information is even communicated by this line other than "oh right, this series is made by a bitter 63 year old Japanese dude in a tracksuit"?

The opinion is old people and women shouldn't be fighting in the army, not be enemies, which is a very common opinion based mainly on physical capabilities, not sexism. There are strong female fighters in the series. Plenty of them.

I feel that it's kind of backwards to posit how many strong female fighters there are in the main series (a total of uh, one that's still potentially viable before the ToP arc?) while also saying it's justifiable that this entire gender is somehow also not strong enough to be in the army. At least it could be justified in-universe by saying Freeza is a misogynistic douche, but it's Cheelai saying it for herself.

I'm not one for this kind of soybean logic where a line like that makes Freeza a "misogynistic douche", frankly I think it's absurd. It's not a misogynistic idea, it's not sexist, and it's not offensive. And yes, I know there are exceptions in the animal kingdom where the female version is the dominant breadwinner. Are there some badass women who can kick my ass? Yes. But by and large, females are the fairer sex for many reasons that are outside of anything "misogynistic" or "sexist" and if you have a problem with that, take it up with nature.

[WittyUsername]

The quote in question is not sexist at all. Not only is it a broad statement, but in general terms, it's a perfectly logical concept. Old people tend to me more frail and women don't usually have the bulk and endurance that a man does. That Freeza has to resort to them means he's not having the ideal army he intended. That doesn't mean he can't have women and old people in the army, nor does it mean there are no strong/powerful women and old people.

I think people are being too emotionally unstable and insecure about their views and trying to finger point at Toriyama when his intention most likely isn't about promoting or attacking any outlook. The statement is just to point out that Freeza's army is a long way from the A team and is now resulted to such a low level.

Besides the mischaracterization of pointing out a response to slightly dialogue as "emotionally unstable", they could just as easily have done that with just having old and weak people in the army. Is there really any need to bring in "AND ALSO THE WEAK WOMEN" too, when we just got done with a story arc where some of the strongest fighters were women? And let it not be forgotten that most Freeza soldiers just seem to use guns anyway, and even the men are constantly one-shotted by most of the cast regardless. Hell, we already knew they were scraping the bottom of the barrel in RoF, what new information is even communicated by this line other than "oh right, this series is made by a bitter 63 year old Japanese dude in a tracksuit"?

The opinion is old people and women shouldn't be fighting in the army, not be enemies, which is a very common opinion based mainly on physical capabilities, not sexism. There are strong female fighters in the series. Plenty of them.

I feel that it's kind of backwards to posit how many strong female fighters there are in the main series (a total of uh, one that's still potentially viable before the ToP arc?) while also saying it's justifiable that this entire gender is somehow also not strong enough to be in the army. At least it could be justified in-universe by saying Freeza is a misogynistic douche, but it's Cheelai saying it for herself.

I'm not one for this kind of soybean logic where a line like that makes Freeza a "misogynistic douche", frankly I think it's absurd. It's not a misogynistic idea, it's not sexist, and it's not offensive. And yes, I know there are exceptions in the animal kingdom where the female version is the dominant breadwinner. Are there some badass women who can kick my ass? Yes. But by and large, females are the fairer sex for many reasons that are outside of anything "misogynistic" or "sexist" and if you have a problem with that, take it up with nature.

From what I understand, the female being the dominant sex is actually more than just an exception in nature. If anything, it seems to practically be the norm for most non-mammals, especially among insects and arachnids. Again though, I don’t have much of an opinion on the matter. I just figured that part was worth pointing out.

[zarmack]

Besides the mischaracterization of pointing out a response to slightly dialogue as "emotionally unstable", they could just as easily have done that with just having old and weak people in the army. Is there really any need to bring in "AND ALSO THE WEAK WOMEN" too, when we just got done with a story arc where some of the strongest fighters were women? And let it not be forgotten that most Freeza soldiers just seem to use guns anyway, and even the men are constantly one-shotted by most of the cast regardless. Hell, we already knew they were scraping the bottom of the barrel in RoF, what new information is even communicated by this line other than "oh right, this series is made by a bitter 63 year old Japanese dude in a tracksuit"?



I feel that it's kind of backwards to posit how many strong female fighters there are in the main series (a total of uh, one that's still potentially viable before the ToP arc?) while also saying it's justifiable that this entire gender is somehow also not strong enough to be in the army. At least it could be justified in-universe by saying Freeza is a misogynistic douche, but it's Cheelai saying it for herself.

I'm not one for this kind of soybean logic where a line like that makes Freeza a "misogynistic douche", frankly I think it's absurd. It's not a misogynistic idea, it's not sexist, and it's not offensive. And yes, I know there are exceptions in the animal kingdom where the female version is the dominant breadwinner. Are there some badass women who can kick my ass? Yes. But by and large, females are the fairer sex for many reasons that are outside of anything "misogynistic" or "sexist" and if you have a problem with that, take it up with nature.

From what I understand, the female being the dominant sex is actually more than just an exception in nature. If anything, it seems to practically be the norm for most non-mammals, especially among insects and arachnids. Again though, I don’t have much of an opinion on the matter. I just figured that part was worth pointing out.

That's actually just a common misconception spread around in recent times. Most reptile, fish and nearly all bird species don't have the females as the more dominant ones. Its only mostly found in some insects.

[WittyUsername]

I'm not one for this kind of soybean logic where a line like that makes Freeza a "misogynistic douche", frankly I think it's absurd. It's not a misogynistic idea, it's not sexist, and it's not offensive. And yes, I know there are exceptions in the animal kingdom where the female version is the dominant breadwinner. Are there some badass women who can kick my ass? Yes. But by and large, females are the fairer sex for many reasons that are outside of anything "misogynistic" or "sexist" and if you have a problem with that, take it up with nature.

From what I understand, the female being the dominant sex is actually more than just an exception in nature. If anything, it seems to practically be the norm for most non-mammals, especially among insects and arachnids. Again though, I don’t have much of an opinion on the matter. I just figured that part was worth pointing out.

That's actually just a common misconception spread around in recent times. Most reptile, fish and nearly all bird species don't have the females as the more dominant ones. Its only mostly found in some insects.

All I heard is that there are apparently a number of species where the female is physically larger than the male. Don’t know how accurate that is, but I’ve heard it being used to describe enough species to the point where I assumed it was a trend.

[Shaddy]

Sexism is the belief that one gender is inferior/superior in value to the other. Acknowledging innate differences between men and women (like average strength) isn't sexism, its common-sense.

And in this fantasy series where everything is based around people's energy and their anatomy is basically irrelevant? It makes the person writing look like they either don't understand their own material or just think that's the way it has to be, because of some outside belief. Don't pin "it's more realistic" on fucking Dragon Ball.

You sound like the type of person who'd be offended when a guy points out a fact like men are taller than women on average.

You sound like the type to write off any criticism you don't agree with as "le epic SJWs ruining my great show" instead of actually comprehending what the given person is saying.

Actually, you don't sound like that, it's what you demonstrate constantly. It's all I've ever seen you do when these subjects are broached and I'm tired of putting up with it. It's just insecurities wanking off over a complete lack of any argument. Either say something meaningful and don't insult people, or say nothing.

I'm not one for this kind of soybean logic where a line like that makes Freeza a "misogynistic douche", frankly I think it's absurd. It's not a misogynistic idea, it's not sexist, and it's not offensive. And yes, I know there are exceptions in the animal kingdom where the female version is the dominant breadwinner. Are there some badass women who can kick my ass? Yes. But by and large, females are the fairer sex for many reasons that are outside of anything "misogynistic" or "sexist" and if you have a problem with that, take it up with nature.

As much as your edgelord tough-guy act is trying to push it, there's no reason Dragon Ball, in it's universe of hundreds of different species and it's bizarre mechanics of fighting, has to obey the laws of nature it so often ignores in order to do something cool, just for you to rationalize that the old rich guy from a nation that largely ignores greater social issues, might have written something sexist. Basically everything in this series is either based around technique or energy power. So your race, gender or even physical strength are kind of irrelevant. Going "the army is so weak they have to put WOMEN in!" when the only times character anatomy is relevant is in species-specific moves, is evident of either Freeza thinking women aren't as good, or women LITERALLY not being as good in-universe because Toriyama thinks that. You can't use "it's realism you soyboy" as a reason for women to suck at stuff in a series where everything operates off of magic powers and alien anatomy (actually, that's not really a good defense for most things).

And again, it's just unnecessary limitation in terms of what characters can look like in this series, which is the real reason I care. Dragon Ball's biggest problem outside it's terrible power mechanics is that it's constantly shrinking it's own world and putting restrictions on what characters can be, only to have to peel back more layers of it in a really obvious way when it runs out of mileage with the previous layer.

[Extreme_kai]

I'll just say this, as a female DB fan I personally am perfectly ok with the lack of female representation, because whenever they try to make them they come out terrible imo. The only female characters I actually liked are DBZ18 and Videl, and Bulma but I still prefer the male ones by a large margin.

What's wrong with Vados, Caulifla, Future Mai and A21 characterization wise? I thought they were great. Chichi sucks though, and so does GT Pan. Kale is alright, and so is Launch, Ribrianne and her friends.

To be honest, most female characters in Shonen anime/manga are either mediocre or they just plain suck like Sakura from Naruto.

Vados is fine, but we haven't had much time with her in the story for me to see her as a favorite character. Basically, she is a female Whis. I like Whis, so I like Vados, but she never pops in my radar as an active character in the story. Caulifla is a mary sue, among the worst kind of female characters imaginable. Sorry to her fans, but I just can't stand the U6 Saiyans( that goes for Cabba and Kale as well) They're just uninteresting and get things handed to them too easily, think Rey from star wars. I despise this new Mai as a concept, she should be an old woman. This whole turning her into a child and having her fall in love with Trunks will forever be cringe to me.

Android 21 epitomizes what I hate about female characters. Her actual design isn't terrible, although I prefer her scientist look. She's basically Buu's design with a bra, of course, to cover up her breast and heels instead of shoes, nothing too problematic there. Things get bad for A21 because she is one of these characters that have to play up their sexuality when the design doesn't call for it. Buu is childish and he eats candy as a kid would, but A21 has to moan and make suggestive advances to the characters, it's just so forced and cringe-worthy to me. To be clear, I have nothing against sexual female characters, one of my favorite Female characters Morrigan from Darkstalkers is sexual, but her design as a succubus calls for it. I know why a succubus was chosen for a female character, but at least it explains why she is so sexual, A21 is just sexual for fanservice. I'm not against male fans finding her attractive, but the narrative tries to push it in your face that she's sexy rather than letting her design speak for it'self.

I actually don't mind Chichi, she reminds me of a woman I would actually meet. Might not be pleasant, but real nonetheless. Pan was always meh, never cared for her. I barely remember anything about Launch except for her split personality gimmick. The one thing I like about Ribrianne was that she was fat and didn't give a fuck about it. I'm not fat myself, but I always got bored of female characters having one body type. Despite not actively hating the female characters, for me, it will always be Male> female in regards to characterization, and I'm at peace with that. My opinion is you could take characters like Zamasu, Whis, Beerus, Freeza, Trunks, Buu etc make them into a woman and I would say they're decent female characters. Maybe I'm weird, I never connected with most female characters growing up, so Idk.

[zarmack]

Sexism is the belief that one gender is inferior/superior in value to the other. Acknowledging innate differences between men and women (like average strength) isn't sexism, its common-sense.

And in this fantasy series where everything is based around people's energy and their anatomy is basically irrelevant? It makes the person writing look like they either don't understand their own material or just think that's the way it has to be, because of some outside belief. Don't pin "it's more realistic" on fucking Dragon Ball.

You sound like the type of person who'd be offended when a guy points out a fact like men are taller than women on average.

You sound like the type to write off any criticism you don't agree with as "le epic SJWs ruining my great show" instead of actually comprehending what the given person is saying.

Actually, you don't sound like that, it's what you demonstrate constantly. It's all I've ever seen you do when these subjects are broached and I'm tired of putting up with it. It's just insecurities wanking off over a complete lack of any argument. Either say something meaningful and don't insult people, or say nothing.

I'm not one for this kind of soybean logic where a line like that makes Freeza a "misogynistic douche", frankly I think it's absurd. It's not a misogynistic idea, it's not sexist, and it's not offensive. And yes, I know there are exceptions in the animal kingdom where the female version is the dominant breadwinner. Are there some badass women who can kick my ass? Yes. But by and large, females are the fairer sex for many reasons that are outside of anything "misogynistic" or "sexist" and if you have a problem with that, take it up with nature.

As much as your edgelord tough-guy act is trying to push it, there's no reason Dragon Ball, in it's universe of hundreds of different species and it's bizarre mechanics of fighting, has to obey the laws of nature it so often ignores in order to do something cool, just for you to rationalize that the old rich guy from a nation that largely ignores greater social issues, might have written something sexist. Basically everything in this series is either based around technique or energy power. So your race, gender or even physical strength are kind of irrelevant. Going "the army is so weak they have to put WOMEN in!" when the only times character anatomy is relevant is in species-specific moves, is evident of either Freeza thinking women aren't as good, or women LITERALLY not being as good in-universe because Toriyama thinks that. You can't use "it's realism you soyboy" as a reason for women to suck at stuff in a series where everything operates off of magic powers and alien anatomy (actually, that's not really a good defense for most things).

And again, it's just unnecessary limitation in terms of what characters can look like in this series, which is the real reason I care. Dragon Ball's biggest problem outside it's terrible power mechanics is that it's constantly shrinking it's own world and putting restrictions on what characters can be, only to have to peel back more layers of it in a really obvious way when it runs out of mileage with the previous layer.

Your post just proved mine & supersaiyanZero's point. Anything to you that doesn't support/reflect PC 50/50 equality is "problematic" and offensive to you, which is exactly how "soyboys" think. It is your insecurity over reality that is shown every time you post about these things.

Besides, strength and combat isn't just a physical thing, its a mental thing too, and males are more psychologically geared into fighting and action than females are. Its a fact of nature, not a "greater social issue". That's why even in Sci-fi/Fantasy fiction, most of the warriors and tough people are male (unless its a series where warrior chicks are the main gimmick, like Dead or Alive).

Authors are not obliged to make their fiction inclusive of all groups, especially when said groups for the most part don't give a damn (like most female fans of Shonen anime/manga). For example, if I'm watching a Bollywood film, I don't expect to see a bunch of white folks nor black folks in it (nor would I care if their are).

[Extreme_kai]

I'm not one for this kind of soybean logic where a line like that makes Freeza a "misogynistic douche", frankly I think it's absurd. It's not a misogynistic idea, it's not sexist, and it's not offensive. And yes, I know there are exceptions in the animal kingdom where the female version is the dominant breadwinner. Are there some badass women who can kick my ass? Yes. But by and large, females are the fairer sex for many reasons that are outside of anything "misogynistic" or "sexist" and if you have a problem with that, take it up with nature.

From what I understand, the female being the dominant sex is actually more than just an exception in nature. If anything, it seems to practically be the norm for most non-mammals, especially among insects and arachnids. Again though, I don’t have much of an opinion on the matter. I just figured that part was worth pointing out.

That's actually just a common misconception spread around in recent times. Most reptile, fish and nearly all bird species don't have the females as the more dominant ones. Its only mostly found in some insects.

I'm going to chime in because I like biology talk. The exact ratio isn't clear, I think the larger Female thing is mainly found in insects, some amphibians and fish species, but when we are talking about larger and dominant we're talking about two different things. In clownfish when the female dies the dominant male becomes a female to replace her. Anglerfish males are literally tiny attachable gonads clamped onto the female and some species are straight parthenogenic. With that said, the point still stands that Dragon ball is just going on human/mammalian rules. If this was actually an expansive universe with the diversity we would see a myriad of different gender dynamics, sexual dimorphism, and more importantly, morphology besides humanoid. The fact that Beerus is based off a cat should dissuade people from speculating on this matter any further. But hey, I for one am just happy Toriyama included asexual species at all.

Honestly, I hope Toriyama never creates a "female" counterpart to Freeza's race or a Namekian smurf. Freeza's design in general to me is a great one with its subtle androgynous qualities. Toriyama doesn't seem to understand designing females outside of mammalian features, so slapping breast on a species based around lizards and no nipples would make me as a biology lover cringe.

I'm not one for this kind of soybean logic where a line like that makes Freeza a "misogynistic douche", frankly I think it's absurd. It's not a misogynistic idea, it's not sexist, and it's not offensive. And yes, I know there are exceptions in the animal kingdom where the female version is the dominant breadwinner. Are there some badass women who can kick my ass? Yes. But by and large, females are the fairer sex for many reasons that are outside of anything "misogynistic" or "sexist" and if you have a problem with that, take it up with nature.

As much as your edgelord tough-guy act is trying to push it, there's no reason Dragon Ball, in it's universe of hundreds of different species and it's bizarre mechanics of fighting, has to obey the laws of nature it so often ignores in order to do something cool, just for you to rationalize that the old rich guy from a nation that largely ignores greater social issues, might have written something sexist. Basically everything in this series is either based around technique or energy power. So your race, gender or even physical strength are kind of irrelevant. Going "the army is so weak they have to put WOMEN in!" when the only times character anatomy is relevant is in species-specific moves, is evident of either Freeza thinking women aren't as good, or women LITERALLY not being as good in-universe because Toriyama thinks that. You can't use "it's realism you soyboy" as a reason for women to suck at stuff in a series where everything operates off of magic powers and alien anatomy (actually, that's not really a good defense for most things).

And again, it's just unnecessary limitation in terms of what characters can look like in this series, which is the real reason I care. Dragon Ball's biggest problem outside it's terrible power mechanics is that it's constantly shrinking it's own world and putting restrictions on what characters can be, only to have to peel back more layers of it in a really obvious way when it runs out of mileage with the previous layer.

I'm confused how this has anything to do with Freeza being a sexist. Cheelai was the one that made that statement, so it would be her undermining the strength of women. If Freeza felt women were wholly useless he would have had none in his army maybe opt for child soldiers or robots if he thought that poorly of them. I will agree with on you with Toriyama's writing of female characters, but he's an old Japanese guy, what are we expecting of him? I go into Dragon ball and know what I'm going to get. If I want good female writing I look elsewhere.

[CJStriker_CBR]

I don't plan to see the movie Until it comes out in US Theaters Until around about week from now or so.

But One part that I have heard about that I have been very interested in seeing is a said Flashback Goku has about ToP Opponents near the beginning of the Movie, it being about opponents from other Universes that he found impressive/strong if that is how the wording goes. Just for any of these characters from the other Universes to have even a moment of appreciation in such a big time DB Movie, for any fans of them It should and does mean allot, it is a part I am looking forward to allot in seeing!

However I figured it would just be clips from the show just replayed again showing these characters. But recently I found an Image on Twitter that I think might be just one still shot of some of these characters and honest if this is show, it is Impressive to see them drawn and represented in this nice animation the movie has!

Spoiler:

[zarmack]

I'll just say this, as a female DB fan I personally am perfectly ok with the lack of female representation, because whenever they try to make them they come out terrible imo. The only female characters I actually liked are DBZ18 and Videl, and Bulma but I still prefer the male ones by a large margin.

What's wrong with Vados, Caulifla, Future Mai and A21 characterization wise? I thought they were great. Chichi sucks though, and so does GT Pan. Kale is alright, and so is Launch, Ribrianne and her friends.

To be honest, most female characters in Shonen anime/manga are either mediocre or they just plain suck like Sakura from Naruto.

Vados is fine, but we haven't had much time with her in the story for me to see her as a favorite character. Basically, she is a female Whis. I like Whis, so I like Vados, but she never pops in my radar as an active character in the story. Caulifla is a mary sue, among the worst kind of female characters imaginable. Sorry to her fans, but I just can't stand the U6 Saiyans( that goes for Cabba and Kale as well) They're just uninteresting and get things handed to them too easily, think Rey from star wars. I despise this new Mai as a concept, she should be an old woman. This whole turning her into a child and having her fall in love with Trunks will forever be cringe to me.

Android 21 epitomizes what I hate about female characters. Her actual design isn't terrible, although I prefer her scientist look. She's basically Buu's design with a bra, of course, to cover up her breast and heels instead of shoes, nothing too problematic there. Things get bad for A21 because she is one of these characters that have to play up their sexuality when the design doesn't call for it. Buu is childish and he eats candy as a kid would, but A21 has to moan and make suggestive advances to the characters, it's just so forced and cringe-worthy to me. To be clear, I have nothing against sexual female characters, one of my favorite Female characters Morrigan from Darkstalkers is sexual, but her design as a succubus calls for it. I know why a succubus was chosen for a female character, but at least it explains why she is so sexual, A21 is just sexual for fanservice. I'm not against male fans finding her attractive, but the narrative tries to push it in your face that she's sexy rather than letting her design speak for it'self.

I actually don't mind Chichi, she reminds me of a woman I would actually meet. Might not be pleasant, but real nonetheless. Pan was always meh, never cared for her. I barely remember anything about Launch except for her split personality gimmick. The one thing I like about Ribrianne was that she was fat and didn't give a fuck about it. I'm not fat myself, but I always got bored of female characters having one body type. Despite not actively hating the female characters, for me, it will always be Male> female in regards to characterization, and I'm at peace with that. My opinion is you could take characters like Zamasu, Whis, Beerus, Freeza, Trunks, Buu etc make them into a woman and I would say they're decent female characters. Maybe I'm weird, I never connected with most female characters growing up, so Idk.

The whole "U6 Saiyans are mary sues" argument doesn't make much sense. It was already established in Z that the stronger your base power level, the easier it is to unlock a transformation (which is part of why Present Trunks and Goten got SSJ so easily, same with Future Trunks in the original manga). Cabba, Caulifla and Kale's base power levels are far beyond what Goku and Vegeta in Z, especially when they transformed for the first time, so them turning SSJ so easily is already justified be the franchises's logic. Plus, Cabba and Kale unlocked SSJ the old fashion way (through rage). Nothing Caulifla does in Super is all that extraordinary, since SSJ1 and 2 are so outdated and she is well past the requirements for those. Comparisons to Rey (who literally has no in-universe justifications for anything she does) make no sense.

Future Mai showed more maturity and personality than she ever had in Early DB (despite being physically younger now). How is making her younger bad writing?

The A21 complaints don't make much sense either. We don't a need narrative reason for why A21 is so sexual (the narrative of DBFZ itself doesn't even call much attention to it), just like how we don't need a narrative reason why Vegeta is a jerk and Gohan is a nice guy. Some people just naturally more sexual than others (compare Bulma to Chichi), like how some people are naturally just nicer or meaner than others. And there's nothing about her design or character the says she shouldn't be so sexual either (she is not a female Buu, she's a former human infused with the DNA of the Z fighters, Freeza, Cell & Buu with personality traits from all of these characters.)

[Extreme_kai]

What's wrong with Vados, Caulifla, Future Mai and A21 characterization wise? I thought they were great. Chichi sucks though, and so does GT Pan. Kale is alright, and so is Launch, Ribrianne and her friends.

To be honest, most female characters in Shonen anime/manga are either mediocre or they just plain suck like Sakura from Naruto.

Vados is fine, but we haven't had much time with her in the story for me to see her as a favorite character. Basically, she is a female Whis. I like Whis, so I like Vados, but she never pops in my radar as an active character in the story. Caulifla is a mary sue, among the worst kind of female characters imaginable. Sorry to her fans, but I just can't stand the U6 Saiyans( that goes for Cabba and Kale as well) They're just uninteresting and get things handed to them too easily, think Rey from star wars. I despise this new Mai as a concept, she should be an old woman. This whole turning her into a child and having her fall in love with Trunks will forever be cringe to me.

Android 21 epitomizes what I hate about female characters. Her actual design isn't terrible, although I prefer her scientist look. She's basically Buu's design with a bra, of course, to cover up her breast and heels instead of shoes, nothing too problematic there. Things get bad for A21 because she is one of these characters that have to play up their sexuality when the design doesn't call for it. Buu is childish and he eats candy as a kid would, but A21 has to moan and make suggestive advances to the characters, it's just so forced and cringe-worthy to me. To be clear, I have nothing against sexual female characters, one of my favorite Female characters Morrigan from Darkstalkers is sexual, but her design as a succubus calls for it. I know why a succubus was chosen for a female character, but at least it explains why she is so sexual, A21 is just sexual for fanservice. I'm not against male fans finding her attractive, but the narrative tries to push it in your face that she's sexy rather than letting her design speak for it'self.

I actually don't mind Chichi, she reminds me of a woman I would actually meet. Might not be pleasant, but real nonetheless. Pan was always meh, never cared for her. I barely remember anything about Launch except for her split personality gimmick. The one thing I like about Ribrianne was that she was fat and didn't give a fuck about it. I'm not fat myself, but I always got bored of female characters having one body type. Despite not actively hating the female characters, for me, it will always be Male> female in regards to characterization, and I'm at peace with that. My opinion is you could take characters like Zamasu, Whis, Beerus, Freeza, Trunks, Buu etc make them into a woman and I would say they're decent female characters. Maybe I'm weird, I never connected with most female characters growing up, so Idk.

The whole "U6 Saiyans are mary sues" argument doesn't make much sense. It was already established in Z that the stronger your base power level, the easier it is to unlock a transformation (which is part of why Present Trunks and Goten got SSJ so easily, same with Future Trunks in the original manga). Cabba, Caulifla and Kale's base power levels are far beyond what Goku and Vegeta in Z, especially when they transformed for the first time, so them turning SSJ so easily is already justified be the franchises's logic. Plus, Cabba and Kale unlocked SSJ the old fashion way (through rage). Nothing Caulifla does in Super is all that extraordinary, since SSJ1 and 2 are so outdated and she is well past the requirements for those. Comparisons to Rey (who literally has no in-universe justifications for anything she does) make no sense.

Future Mai showed more maturity and personality than she ever had in Early DB (despite being physically younger now). How is making her younger bad writing?

The A21 complaints don't make much sense either. We don't a need narrative reason for why A21 is so sexual (the narrative of DBFZ itself doesn't even call much attention to it), just like how we don't need a narrative reason why Vegeta is a jerk and Gohan is a nice guy. Some people just naturally more sexual than others (compare Bulma to Chichi), like how some people are naturally just nicer or meaner than others. And there's nothing about her design or character the says she shouldn't be so sexual either (she is not a female Buu, she's a former human infused with the DNA of the Z fighters, Freeza, Cell & Buu with personality traits from all of these characters.)

I'm not going to go into a back in forth about the U6 saiyan's, I said what I said and others have mentioned my points in the past. IMO they got things way too easily, maybe not because they were women, but to sped up the progression of the story and put them to a higher level.

It's bad writing because she does not act like a woman her age would around a young boy/teen. I don't care if my brain was put into a child's body, no way I'm going to fall in love with a kid. It was just a forced love interest for Trunks, simple as that. You know what would show maturity? Not being attracted to an underage boy.

Oh please, we all know she was made that way because she was female and to pander to waifu lovers. They would have never made Buu act as she did. I said she is basically female Buu in design. She dresses just like him, has pink skin, and a hunger for food, c'mon lol. Just giving you my opinion as a woman on female characters in the show. I don't feel they're great characters and trying to explain how they're actually are good isn't going to change my mind, they already left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Shaddy]

Your post just proved mine & supersaiyanZero's point. Anything to you that doesn't support/reflect PC 50/50 equality is "problematic" and offensive to you, which is exactly how "soyboys" think. It is your insecurity over reality that is shown every time you post about these things.

I have, at multiple points, spoken about how it's not offensive to me personally. I'm calling attention to this stuff because it's good to be conscious of it, and you've decided that that means I'm "UwU so offended nasty XDDDD" because it supports the predetermined strawman you're trying to attack instead of my actual point. It's a weak argument on every conceivable scale. You're so obsessed with calling out anything I say as "overly PC trash" that you constantly overlook what any of it means, the same as that dumb exchange in the images thread. I keep using the word 'insecure' to describe you (besides the obvious) because this behavior is needlessly aggressive and incredibly defensive for no real reason, where a few terms just seem to set off some "HIT HIM WITH THE BUZZWORDS" switch in your brain or something.

Besides, strength and combat isn't just a physical thing, its a mental thing too, and males are more psychologically geared into fighting and action than females are. Its a fact of nature, not a "greater social issue". That's why even in Sci-fi/Fantasy fiction, most of the warriors and tough people are male (unless its a series where warrior chicks are the main gimmick, like Dead or Alive).

There are millions of works of fiction where there's not a huge gender gap in fighters. Even if the "psychological" thing is true (which uh, got a citation there buddy?) it doesn't mean anything when reality is such a non-factor on Dragon Ball in general, or when modern society is not focused on combat in the first place and thus any fantasy story where it's a central focus is already breaking a ton of physics restrictions in general.

Authors are not obliged to make their fiction inclusive of all groups, especially when said groups for the most part don't give a damn (like most female fans of Shonen anime/manga). For example, if I'm watching a Bollywood film, I don't expect to see a bunch of white folks nor black folks in it (nor would I care if their are).

And that's perfectly fine, I'm not complaining about the gender disparity in Dragon Ball, at least not in the way you're pretending I am. I'm saying that Toriyama's writing has leaned toward somewhat sexist for 3 decades, and that this line is just another demonstration to add to the pile. I'm not saying I hate the series or Toriyama for this. At no point have I implied any ill will to the man for this specific issue, only said that it exists, and it should be acknowledged. I'm not even saying Tori himself is sexist. I can't say that, I don't know the man, but I know some of the things he's written undeniably, unjustifiably, are. And even then, I'm not saying they've harmed anyone, just that people should pay attention to that stuff. I don't appreciate you trying to characterize this as some PC crusade on the series you have no more right to than I do.

I'm confused how this has anything to do with Freeza being a sexist. Cheelai was the one that made that statement, so it would be her undermining the strength of women. If Freeza felt women were wholly useless he would have had none in his army maybe opt for child soldiers or robots if he thought that poorly of them. I will agree with on you with Toriyama's writing of female characters, but he's an old Japanese guy, what are we expecting of him? I go into Dragon ball and know what I'm going to get. If I want good female writing I look elsewhere.

Freeza would probably be the one who chooses who he does and doesn't put in his army. Given that biological sex and fighting power in this series aren't necessarily related in any way, he would have no reason to not have had them mixed in with anyone else unless he viewed them as weaker and only did so because he's desperate.

And I'm not saying this comes as any surprise, really. I'm not even saying there's much we can or should change about it, but I don't think it need be ignored regardless.

Also re: U6, they were forced up the ranks but it's not because of Suedom or gender but because Toriyama wrote the Tournament of Destroyers before the ToP, and didn't consider when saying "nobody in U6 has heard of super saiyan" that he'd need two more saiyans that were strong enough to rival Goku and Vegeta. He just needed something for Vegeta to teach cabba and decided on it being Super Saiyan. The guy doesn't think things through, it's hardly a secret.

Also yeah, 21 was made for people who liked this stuff, and possibly vore fetishists. Not that there isn't a place for that, but it is what it is.