Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by SSJgogeto » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:19 pm

ironfist2020 wrote:
SSJgogeto wrote:I don't need to rewatch, I remember everything and I know you're exaggerating.
i think you are the one who exaggerate those fight scenes like they are the second coming of jesus when even the jiren vs goku fights were close to that level.

your so hyped on this movie that you dont care about its flaws. and there are. many. mainly the first half.
Not really.

First, I'm aware of the movie's flaws. Second, seems like you're like that people who only can complain rather than analyze impartially.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:41 pm

Doctor. wrote:Now that I think about it: shouldn't the wish be impossible? Porunga couldn't bring Goku back to Earth, so why would Shenron be able to teleport Broly?
Porunga could do that, but Goku refused. Broly probably was in no condition to refuse such thing, he did fell to the ground almost unconscious the second he got to his old planet. Most likely he welcomed that wish.

There are some weird things about Shenron, Cell saga ended up with just 2 wishes(revive those killed by Cell and remove the bombs from the androids), Buu saga had 3. I don't remember how many wishes there were in the Hirudegan movie.
Also, how could Sheron bring people back when Kami was weaker than Enma, the guardian of the dead and the other world?

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Doctor. » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:46 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Now that I think about it: shouldn't the wish be impossible? Porunga couldn't bring Goku back to Earth, so why would Shenron be able to teleport Broly?
Porunga could do that, but Goku refused. Broly probably was in no condition to refuse such thing, he did fell to the ground almost unconscious the second he got to his old planet. Most likely he welcomed that wish.

There are some weird things about Shenron, Cell saga ended up with just 2 wishes(revive those killed by Cell and remove the bombs from the androids), Buu saga had 3. I don't remember how many wishes there were in the Hirudegan movie.
Also, how could Sheron bring people back when Kami was weaker than Enma, the guardian of the dead and the other world?
He could always grant 3 wishes since Dende reformed him, it just goes down to 2 if you use one wish to revive a large number of people.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:50 pm

Doctor. wrote:They're friendly allies and have helped numerous times at this point. Nobody's buying this "the Gods are neutral and do what they want!" meme that they've been trying to push when they prove that statement wrong every single story arc.
I'm sorry did Beerus and Whis go to the future at any point in the Zamasu arc? They said it wasn't their problem. Sure, they may give their advice, and try to find creative solutions, but it was made extremely clear that "get Beerus and Whis to beat up the bad guy" is not an option. Otherwise, they would have gone to the future and curb-stomped Black and Zamasu. Did they intervene in the ToP? They were cheerleaders the entire arc.
Then use the fusion dance. The point is that they didn't even try to get the Potara even though Goku knows he can IT to the Kaioshin realm. The writers could have them use the fusion dance after giving a reason to discard the Potara option.
Sure, they could have acknowledged Potara as an option and discard it for whatever reason. Not exactly a big deal to me. Especially since they already tried Vegetto and it didn't work for shit. MetaMoran fusion is a fusion made by mortals for mortals. Potara is a fusion made by Gods for Gods to use. Makes sense that Metamoran would
It really wasn't. It was the least practical choice possible and the movie illustrates this well. They wasted over an hour trying to get the fusion dance down. If Broly had been less charitable with Freeza and killed him off immediately as he proved he could, then they would have been screwed.
Of course they would have been screwed if Freeza didn't hold out. They would have been screwed if Vegeta/Good Buu didn't hold out against Kid Buu too.

Sometimes you're screwed a specific tactic doesn't work out. Like we've already discussed the only alternative is potara. Asking Beerus or Whis "hey man do you think you could take this guy out for us?" Sure as hell isn't an option as much as you think it is. If it was, he would have done it for Freeza, Goku Black, Merged Zamasu, etc.
It isn't straightforward because the narrative wasn't being written in that direction. It was establishing how these 3 different Saiyans had different upbringings. The narrative was highlighting their differences, not what Goku and Vegeta have in common that Broly doesn't. Thematically, the movie is all over the place. I mean, the intent seems to be that Goku and Vegeta became friends in spite of their different upbringings and, thus, this will logically extend to Broly as we see at the end of the film. The problem is that the movie does no effort in developing this point at all and places fighting and 'splosions as the number one priority. Character arcs are left on-hold the moment Gogeta shows up, and Gogeta's "YEAH KILL 'EM" attitude regarding Broly clashes heavily with Goku's pre and post-fusion.
I don't see how any of this this inhibits Gogeta from fitting thematically into the movie. What exactly would you have preferred been the solution to defeating Broly?

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:17 pm

[quote="PFM18"]I'm sorry did Beerus and Whis go to the future at any point in the Zamasu arc? They said it wasn't their problem. Sure, they may give their advice, and try to find creative solutions, but it was made extremely clear that "get Beerus and Whis to beat up the bad guy" is not an option. Otherwise, they would have gone to the future and curb-stomped Black and Zamasu. Did they intervene in the ToP? They were cheerleaders the entire arc.
[quote]

The ToP is not a good example. If Beerus and Whis tried to intervene there, they would’ve been at risk of getting erased. Beerus would’ve anyway.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Artorias » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:33 pm

Doctor. wrote:Now that I think about it: shouldn't the wish be impossible? Porunga couldn't bring Goku back to Earth, so why would Shenron be able to teleport Broly?

Bringing back Gogeta also brings up another problem (on top of the other narrative problems associated with him that I've already discussed), which is why haven't they fused before and what's the excuse to not fuse in fights that are to come? With the Vegetto retcon, you had the excuse that a fusion would be useless because you wouldn't be able to use much power before it burned all your time, but Gogeta was spamming huge KHHs and other Ki attacks and he never defused, so now there's no more excuse for not using fusion in the future.
This is my biggest problem with the existence of fusion in general in this franchise. It's just far too broken with literally no negative side, to the point where I just do not buy the tension of any of the arcs anymore. I'm always thinking in the back of my head "Just FUSE assholes! you'll win immediately!" All they have to justify them not doing it is Vegeta/Goku's "pride", which I think a lot of us can agree is just cringey and dumb at this point, and obviously exists as a contrived reason to allow the main characters to be stupid just long enough to allow the villain to get one over on them.

Bottom line is, when you introduce a mechanic that utterly busted and easy to do, there should be some sort of drawback. But there isn't, so now there's no excuse. It basically now just comes down to a crutch for the writers that they can pluck out of the buffet of "ways to beat the bad guy" when they get lazy or it suits their desires every few arcs.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PFM18 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:27 am

WittyUsername wrote:
PFM18 wrote:I'm sorry did Beerus and Whis go to the future at any point in the Zamasu arc? They said it wasn't their problem. Sure, they may give their advice, and try to find creative solutions, but it was made extremely clear that "get Beerus and Whis to beat up the bad guy" is not an option. Otherwise, they would have gone to the future and curb-stomped Black and Zamasu. Did they intervene in the ToP? They were cheerleaders the entire arc.

The ToP is not a good example. If Beerus and Whis tried to intervene there, they would’ve been at risk of getting erased. Beerus would’ve anyway.
Then what examples do you have? Supposedly they intervene every arc. The ToP is an arc and there was no intervention, really. Unless you consider after the tournament Whis revived Freeza. But, that isn't at all relevant. Point is, there's absolutely 0 indication, that a viable option would be to just be like "Hey, yo Beerus and Whis, could you take care of Broly for us?" If that was an option, the Zamasu arc would have been a permanent opportunity for it. Beerus would have gone to the future with them and taken care of the threat for them. Did he? No. He specifically said that he could, but that he wouldn't interfere.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Shaddy » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:40 am

Artorias wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Now that I think about it: shouldn't the wish be impossible? Porunga couldn't bring Goku back to Earth, so why would Shenron be able to teleport Broly?

Bringing back Gogeta also brings up another problem (on top of the other narrative problems associated with him that I've already discussed), which is why haven't they fused before and what's the excuse to not fuse in fights that are to come? With the Vegetto retcon, you had the excuse that a fusion would be useless because you wouldn't be able to use much power before it burned all your time, but Gogeta was spamming huge KHHs and other Ki attacks and he never defused, so now there's no more excuse for not using fusion in the future.
This is my biggest problem with the existence of fusion in general in this franchise. It's just far too broken with literally no negative side, to the point where I just do not buy the tension of any of the arcs anymore. I'm always thinking in the back of my head "Just FUSE assholes! you'll win immediately!" All they have to justify them not doing it is Vegeta/Goku's "pride", which I think a lot of us can agree is just cringey and dumb at this point, and obviously exists as a contrived reason to allow the main characters to be stupid just long enough to allow the villain to get one over on them.

Bottom line is, when you introduce a mechanic that utterly busted and easy to do, there should be some sort of drawback. But there isn't, so now there's no excuse. It basically now just comes down to a crutch for the writers that they can pluck out of the buffet of "ways to beat the bad guy" when they get lazy or it suits their desires every few arcs.
It doesn't help that there's no depth to it. Gogeta and Vegetto are stronger than the sum of their parts, but their personalities border on the one-dimensional. The merging of multiple characters' psyches lends itself to a huge host of writing possibilities and they do nothing with it but the most predictable and basic of characterization. The Gogeta vs. Vegito argument never made sense to me because both of them are pretty equally bland and do the exact same shit, it's hardly anything but a cosmetic difference.

Not to fellate Steven Universe as a show any more than the rest of the internet does already, but the aspects of fusion the always stood out to me as the best are the ones surrounding what the person you create is, how they feel about the temporary nature of their existence, and how you can surprise the audience with their personalities by focusing on their more nuanced emotions. There's so much potential there for interesting storytelling and they do nothing with it.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Artorias » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:12 am

I have a criticism of this film that I've heard no one else really bring up. It's not major by any means, but it's just an interesting observation.

I feel like the ending beatdown by Gogeta on Broly clashes with the narrative at that point in the film. What I mean is, it seems to me that Toei wanted to have an epic last battle that went on decently long, and wanted to get as many talented animators in the finale as they could. So they crammed SEVERAL amazing cuts of animation by some of the industry's best one after the other. But that creates a problem, because every cut basically functions the same: show Gogeta beating the shit out of Broly. I think we can all agree the fight is spectacular and looks incredible, but this creates an weird feeling, at least in me, that stems from the fact that we're watching a supposedly sympathetic character get their shit rocked for like 10 straight minutes. So in the pursuit of wanting to show off a bunch of stellar fight scenes, they actually make that part of the fight go on far longer than it really should, and it feels unnatural to me. It's weird and almost uncomfortable to watch the protagonist just go to town on the bad guy as the finale to your fight, especially on a villain that really hasn't done anything wrong to anyone else and is obviously meant to be sympathetic to the audience. It's almost like they want you to feel bad for Broly, yet the movie doesn't play this up at all. It still acts like you're supposed to be cheering in your seat as Gogeta savagely beats the poor guy down.

Just a weird clash of visuals and narrative that I found interesting.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Melkaniator » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:37 am

Doctor. wrote: Gogeta's "YEAH KILL 'EM" attitude regarding Broly clashes heavily with Goku's pre and post-fusion.
Well, you could argue that's on Vegeta's side...

...but, where was that side when Gogeta had the chance to kill Freeza?

They just let Freeza go, the guy that brought a monster to their doorstep.
ironfist2020 wrote:to sum it up. a Saiyan gets angry and fight goku and vegeta. THE END. ''but the awesome fight scenes'' dragon ball fans are used to crazy battles. what about story? no fuck that. all we care are fight scenes
Due to how easy is to please most DB fans, they have no reason to try.

They could add SS Rainbow, and "those" fans would defend it trying to explain the meaning behind the coloration, you could express how bad the story is, and most of em' would go all "nobody watches DB because of the story".
Glen300 wrote:The Spanish Dub is all over youtube in great quality considering it is cam footage :lol:
Yep, I'm very happy with the translation, I liked specifically how they're using now the term "Ōzaru" instead of "mono gigante/great ape".
Artorias wrote:It still acts like you're supposed to be cheering in your seat as Gogeta savagely beats the poor guy down.
And they did, crowd went crazy for Gogeta.
DBS anime is a fan service series that delivers irrelevant dialogue, inconsistent writing, and lazy designs.

The DB manga never had so many mistakes, nor those were this constant.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Artorias » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:44 am

Melkaniator wrote:
And they did, crowd went crazy for Gogeta.
And that's fine and awesome. I'm not that big of a stick in the mud, hell, I'll probably be cheering when I see it in the theatre. Just thought its weird when you zoom out and look at how its presented.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by zarmack » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:23 am

Shaddy wrote:
Artorias wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Now that I think about it: shouldn't the wish be impossible? Porunga couldn't bring Goku back to Earth, so why would Shenron be able to teleport Broly?

Bringing back Gogeta also brings up another problem (on top of the other narrative problems associated with him that I've already discussed), which is why haven't they fused before and what's the excuse to not fuse in fights that are to come? With the Vegetto retcon, you had the excuse that a fusion would be useless because you wouldn't be able to use much power before it burned all your time, but Gogeta was spamming huge KHHs and other Ki attacks and he never defused, so now there's no more excuse for not using fusion in the future.
This is my biggest problem with the existence of fusion in general in this franchise. It's just far too broken with literally no negative side, to the point where I just do not buy the tension of any of the arcs anymore. I'm always thinking in the back of my head "Just FUSE assholes! you'll win immediately!" All they have to justify them not doing it is Vegeta/Goku's "pride", which I think a lot of us can agree is just cringey and dumb at this point, and obviously exists as a contrived reason to allow the main characters to be stupid just long enough to allow the villain to get one over on them.

Bottom line is, when you introduce a mechanic that utterly busted and easy to do, there should be some sort of drawback. But there isn't, so now there's no excuse. It basically now just comes down to a crutch for the writers that they can pluck out of the buffet of "ways to beat the bad guy" when they get lazy or it suits their desires every few arcs.
It doesn't help that there's no depth to it. Gogeta and Vegetto are stronger than the sum of their parts, but their personalities border on the one-dimensional. The merging of multiple characters' psyches lends itself to a huge host of writing possibilities and they do nothing with it but the most predictable and basic of characterization. The Gogeta vs. Vegito argument never made sense to me because both of them are pretty equally bland and do the exact same shit, it's hardly anything but a cosmetic difference.

Not to fellate Steven Universe as a show any more than the rest of the internet does already, but the aspects of fusion the always stood out to me as the best are the ones surrounding what the person you create is, how they feel about the temporary nature of their existence, and how you can surprise the audience with their personalities by focusing on their more nuanced emotions. There's so much potential there for interesting storytelling and they do nothing with it.
Vegito was one of the most entertaining parts of the Buu saga, and was by no means bland. He actually acted like a Goku/Vegeta mix and had a personality that made sense, unlike most of the other fusions where only one partners personality shows (Gotenks, Kefla, etc).

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by zarmack » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:27 am

Artorias wrote:I have a criticism of this film that I've heard no one else really bring up. It's not major by any means, but it's just an interesting observation.

I feel like the ending beatdown by Gogeta on Broly clashes with the narrative at that point in the film. What I mean is, it seems to me that Toei wanted to have an epic last battle that went on decently long, and wanted to get as many talented animators in the finale as they could. So they crammed SEVERAL amazing cuts of animation by some of the industry's best one after the other. But that creates a problem, because every cut basically functions the same: show Gogeta beating the shit out of Broly. I think we can all agree the fight is spectacular and looks incredible, but this creates an weird feeling, at least in me, that stems from the fact that we're watching a supposedly sympathetic character get their shit rocked for like 10 straight minutes. So in the pursuit of wanting to show off a bunch of stellar fight scenes, they actually make that part of the fight go on far longer than it really should, and it feels unnatural to me. It's weird and almost uncomfortable to watch the protagonist just go to town on the bad guy as the finale to your fight, especially on a villain that really hasn't done anything wrong to anyone else and is obviously meant to be sympathetic to the audience. It's almost like they want you to feel bad for Broly, yet the movie doesn't play this up at all. It still acts like you're supposed to be cheering in your seat as Gogeta savagely beats the poor guy down.

Just a weird clash of visuals and narrative that I found interesting.
This is yet another reason why Gogeta vs Broly should have been a (near) even fight instead of a stomp.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Shaddy » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:52 am

zarmack wrote: Vegito was one of the most entertaining parts of the Buu saga, and was by no means bland. He actually acted like a Goku/Vegeta mix and had a personality that made sense, unlike most of the other fusions where only one partners personality shows (Gotenks, Kefla, etc).
Only if you imagine the least-interesting possible merging of those characters. He was boring. All fusions are boring, really, and I wouldn't say Vegito is particularly bad in that regard, but everything about him is just a watered-down version of either Goku or Vegeta at a given time, and it didn't do a damn thing to serve the narrative, other than getting Goku and Vegeta inside Buu, where they don't even stay fused.

The closest things to actual substance any fusion ever got was Goku and Vegeta remarking about how they don't want to fuse again, and Gogeta trying to decide what his name should be. But of course, neither of those things matter because Goku and Vegeta will fuse again whenever the marketing demands, and Gogeta was already Gogeta in the film. A better-written version of the character would actually show some amount of discomfort or conflict if Goku and Vegeta really disliked it that much, or their would be some amount of introspective where they consider a fusion to be a separate person with his or her own thoughts or feelings. Hell, maybe waiting like a year to let Vegetto exist again would piss him off by the time they got to Zamasu. But we'll never know since it'll never be actually fleshed-out because that's never been how Toriyama writes.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by zarmack » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:37 am

Shaddy wrote:
zarmack wrote: Vegito was one of the most entertaining parts of the Buu saga, and was by no means bland. He actually acted like a Goku/Vegeta mix and had a personality that made sense, unlike most of the other fusions where only one partners personality shows (Gotenks, Kefla, etc).
Only if you imagine the least-interesting possible merging of those characters. He was boring. All fusions are boring, really, and I wouldn't say Vegito is particularly bad in that regard, but everything about him is just a watered-down version of either Goku or Vegeta at a given time, and it didn't do a damn thing to serve the narrative, other than getting Goku and Vegeta inside Buu, where they don't even stay fused.

The closest things to actual substance any fusion ever got was Goku and Vegeta remarking about how they don't want to fuse again, and Gogeta trying to decide what his name should be. But of course, neither of those things matter because Goku and Vegeta will fuse again whenever the marketing demands, and Gogeta was already Gogeta in the film. A better-written version of the character would actually show some amount of discomfort or conflict if Goku and Vegeta really disliked it that much, or their would be some amount of introspective where they consider a fusion to be a separate person with his or her own thoughts or feelings. Hell, maybe waiting like a year to let Vegetto exist again would piss him off by the time they got to Zamasu. But we'll never know since it'll never be actually fleshed-out because that's never been how Toriyama writes.
If fusion was so boring it wouldn't be so popular and on demand (logic-101). Many folks wanna see overpowered badasses dominate over others and look cool while doing it (this is a fighting franchise after all). That's why Vegito vs Buuhan & Gogeta vs Janemba are iconic moments in the franchise. And its already made clear since Gotenks' debut that fusions see themselves as their own person, so there's no need for any pseudo-deep introspection from them.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Shaddy » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:21 am

zarmack wrote: If fusion was so boring it wouldn't be so popular and on demand (logic-101).
That is terrible, terrible logic. That "haha it's so obvious" attitude can fuck off, you can justify literally anything with that. Don't like how the Black arc ended? Well Dragon Ball Super made a ton of money so it's an objectively good ending. Think Dragon Ball Minus sucks? Well the Broly movie is making a fuckton of money so it's objectively more interesting than The Bardock special. Oh, you think Resurrection F was a visual bore? Well it was super popular and made a ton of money so you're getting Yamamuro until the sun blows up oh wait. Or hey, it goes both ways. Okami didn't sell that much? Well, guess it must have been total shit. Iron Giant bombed at the box office originally? Well, obviously that means the production team just wasn't trying hard enough.

No. That's stupid and you know it.

Even if something is popular or successful, that doesn't make it good, nor does it preclude them from improving upon it. After all, Super's animation was shite for like the first quarter of the show despite it's popularity, but they still worked to fix things up by Black arc. Even then the character designs still sucked, but that didn't stop them from getting Shintani to make these new ones.
zarmack wrote:Many folks wanna see overpowered badasses dominate over others and look cool while doing it (this is a fighting franchise after all).
And that's somehow supposed to excuse them from being interesting? Vegeta still had a character arc while also continuing to be one of the most active fighters in the series. So did plenty of other characters. If fusions are supposed to get a pass just because they only exist within the fights then they don't have a right to exist in the form they do at all. It's the same as all that power level nonsense. When the laws of how your story's physics operate are that detrimental to telling a good story, you need to change what the rules are, or get rid of it.
zarmack wrote:That's why Vegito vs Buuhan & Gogeta vs Janemba are iconic moments in the franchise.
Besides the fact that those are neither the most iconic nor are they really "moments", many more popular moments people like about the series are:

-Goku transforming into Super Saiyan as an explosive burst of rage.
-Vegeta's suicide attempt against Buu, accepting his status as a protector of his family and his planet.
-Trunks bawling over the death of his mentor, prompting his initial transformation.
-Piccolo dying to save Gohan, showing that he was truly changed from a tyrannical monster to someone who cares about his pupil and friend.
-Gohan himself going SSJ2 against Cell, signifying an end of childhood, and the culmination of all of his moments of rage and pain up to that point.

You'll notice none of these actually involve fighting anyone, they're either before or herald a dip during the fight. Because fighting is just a piece of what Dragon Ball is. If you're claiming anything otherwise you might as well just look up fighting clips on sakugabooru instead of actually watching the show. Without it's character moments, Dragon Ball would be nothing but a series of isolated battles between people nobody has any reason to care about. The main series would be no different than soulless crap like Heroes, and nobody would like the show because they don't have any memorable personalities to latch on to.
zarmack wrote:And its already made clear since Gotenks' debut that fusions see themselves as their own person, so there's no need for any pseudo-deep introspection from them.
Those two things don't correlate at all. There's plenty to be said about what a fusion is and how their components feel about it, both when fused and not, regardless of whether they're considered separate people. After all, if we're really supposed to see Gogeta and Vegetto as standalone from Goku and Vegeta, then they become even weaker because what we know about Goku and Vegeta doesn't matter, and the fusions are barely characterized. I'm not asking for "pseudo-deep introspection", I'm asking for them to be anywhere close to as developed as any other characters in the series. Even some lesser randos in the tournaments feel more realized than your typical fusion.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by TheOne » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:40 am

Artorias wrote:I have a criticism of this film that I've heard no one else really bring up. It's not major by any means, but it's just an interesting observation.

I feel like the ending beatdown by Gogeta on Broly clashes with the narrative at that point in the film. What I mean is, it seems to me that Toei wanted to have an epic last battle that went on decently long, and wanted to get as many talented animators in the finale as they could. So they crammed SEVERAL amazing cuts of animation by some of the industry's best one after the other. But that creates a problem, because every cut basically functions the same: show Gogeta beating the shit out of Broly. I think we can all agree the fight is spectacular and looks incredible, but this creates an weird feeling, at least in me, that stems from the fact that we're watching a supposedly sympathetic character get their shit rocked for like 10 straight minutes. So in the pursuit of wanting to show off a bunch of stellar fight scenes, they actually make that part of the fight go on far longer than it really should, and it feels unnatural to me. It's weird and almost uncomfortable to watch the protagonist just go to town on the bad guy as the finale to your fight, especially on a villain that really hasn't done anything wrong to anyone else and is obviously meant to be sympathetic to the audience. It's almost like they want you to feel bad for Broly, yet the movie doesn't play this up at all. It still acts like you're supposed to be cheering in your seat as Gogeta savagely beats the poor guy down.

Just a weird clash of visuals and narrative that I found interesting.
I can agree with some of that statement. It was like Gogeta completely forgot about Gokus conversation with Broly earlier about knowing he’s not a bad guy. But I also remember that Vegeta showed no hesitation in trying to kill Broly when he was in SSG.

Where I completely disagree with you is how you’re implying that the animators were trying to get us to cheer for Gogeta beating down Broly. Not sure how your theatre was, but people were sounding a little disgruntled in mine. They also clapped when Broly disappeared. The beat down helped build sympathy for the character after watching Gogeta be a bully.
How i predict the tournament will end:

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TheOne
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by TheOne » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:41 am

Melkaniator wrote:
Doctor. wrote: Gogeta's "YEAH KILL 'EM" attitude regarding Broly clashes heavily with Goku's pre and post-fusion.
Well, you could argue that's on Vegeta's side...

...but, where was that side when Gogeta had the chance to kill Freeza?

They just let Freeza go, the guy that brought a monster to their doorstep.
ironfist2020 wrote:to sum it up. a Saiyan gets angry and fight goku and vegeta. THE END. ''but the awesome fight scenes'' dragon ball fans are used to crazy battles. what about story? no fuck that. all we care are fight scenes
Due to how easy is to please most DB fans, they have no reason to try.

They could add SS Rainbow, and "those" fans would defend it trying to explain the meaning behind the coloration, you could express how bad the story is, and most of em' would go all "nobody watches DB because of the story".
Glen300 wrote:The Spanish Dub is all over youtube in great quality considering it is cam footage :lol:
Yep, I'm very happy with the translation, I liked specifically how they're using now the term "Ōzaru" instead of "mono gigante/great ape".
Artorias wrote:It still acts like you're supposed to be cheering in your seat as Gogeta savagely beats the poor guy down.
And they did, crowd went crazy for Gogeta.
Where did you watch it? Because in my theatre, everyone clapped when Broly disappeared.
How i predict the tournament will end:

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by zarmack » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:12 am

Shaddy wrote:
zarmack wrote: If fusion was so boring it wouldn't be so popular and on demand (logic-101).
That is terrible, terrible logic. That "haha it's so obvious" attitude can fuck off, you can justify literally anything with that. Don't like how the Black arc ended? Well Dragon Ball Super made a ton of money so it's an objectively good ending. Think Dragon Ball Minus sucks? Well the Broly movie is making a fuckton of money so it's objectively more interesting than The Bardock special. Oh, you think Resurrection F was a visual bore? Well it was super popular and made a ton of money so you're getting Yamamuro until the sun blows up oh wait. Or hey, it goes both ways. Okami didn't sell that much? Well, guess it must have been total shit. Iron Giant bombed at the box office originally? Well, obviously that means the production team just wasn't trying hard enough.

No. That's stupid and you know it.

Even if something is popular or successful, that doesn't make it good, nor does it preclude them from improving upon it. After all, Super's animation was shite for like the first quarter of the show despite it's popularity, but they still worked to fix things up by Black arc. Even then the character designs still sucked, but that didn't stop them from getting Shintani to make these new ones.
zarmack wrote:Many folks wanna see overpowered badasses dominate over others and look cool while doing it (this is a fighting franchise after all).
And that's somehow supposed to excuse them from being interesting? Vegeta still had a character arc while also continuing to be one of the most active fighters in the series. So did plenty of other characters. If fusions are supposed to get a pass just because they only exist within the fights then they don't have a right to exist in the form they do at all. It's the same as all that power level nonsense. When the laws of how your story's physics operate are that detrimental to telling a good story, you need to change what the rules are, or get rid of it.
zarmack wrote:That's why Vegito vs Buuhan & Gogeta vs Janemba are iconic moments in the franchise.
Besides the fact that those are neither the most iconic nor are they really "moments", many more popular moments people like about the series are:

-Goku transforming into Super Saiyan as an explosive burst of rage.
-Vegeta's suicide attempt against Buu, accepting his status as a protector of his family and his planet.
-Trunks bawling over the death of his mentor, prompting his initial transformation.
-Piccolo dying to save Gohan, showing that he was truly changed from a tyrannical monster to someone who cares about his pupil and friend.
-Gohan himself going SSJ2 against Cell, signifying an end of childhood, and the culmination of all of his moments of rage and pain up to that point.

You'll notice none of these actually involve fighting anyone, they're either before or herald a dip during the fight. Because fighting is just a piece of what Dragon Ball is. If you're claiming anything otherwise you might as well just look up fighting clips on sakugabooru instead of actually watching the show. Without it's character moments, Dragon Ball would be nothing but a series of isolated battles between people nobody has any reason to care about. The main series would be no different than soulless crap like Heroes, and nobody would like the show because they don't have any memorable personalities to latch on to.
zarmack wrote:And its already made clear since Gotenks' debut that fusions see themselves as their own person, so there's no need for any pseudo-deep introspection from them.
Those two things don't correlate at all. There's plenty to be said about what a fusion is and how their components feel about it, both when fused and not, regardless of whether they're considered separate people. After all, if we're really supposed to see Gogeta and Vegetto as standalone from Goku and Vegeta, then they become even weaker because what we know about Goku and Vegeta doesn't matter, and the fusions are barely characterized. I'm not asking for "pseudo-deep introspection", I'm asking for them to be anywhere close to as developed as any other characters in the series. Even some lesser randos in the tournaments feel more realized than your typical fusion.
1. I said nothing about objective quality, you're putting words in my mouth. People are bored and/or entertained by different shit, so if fusion wasn't entertaining to the general public and much of the fandom, then nobody would demand for more Gogeta or Vegito (yet they do). The world doesn't revolve around your joys Shaddy.

2." Don't like how the Black arc ended? Well Dragon Ball Super made a ton of money so it's an objectively good ending. Think Dragon Ball Minus sucks? Well the Broly movie is making a fuckton of money so it's objectively more interesting than The Bardock special. Oh, you think Resurrection F was a visual bore? Well it was super popular and made a ton of money so you're getting Yamamuro until the sun blows up oh wait. Or hey, it goes both ways. Okami didn't sell that much? Well, guess it must have been total shit. Iron Giant bombed at the box office originally? Well, obviously that means the production team just wasn't trying hard enough."

This whole argument here is a huge fallacy and a strawman. You show a complete lack of any kind of sound reasoning. Almost no one praises Revival of F (which was only watch because its a DB movie), the ending of the Black arc and DB Minus, and the DB Minus parts of the DBS Broly is NOT what people like about the film at large. Horrible arguments.

3. "And that's somehow supposed to excuse them from being interesting"

The mere fact that they are a hybrid of Goku and Vegeta alone makes them interesting, especially since they maintain literally everything about them.

4. "Besides the fact that those are neither the most iconic nor are they really "moments""

Nobody said they the most iconic, and speak for yourself:
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intere ... ga/.139235

The Japanese (like much of the international fandom) clearly see Vegito's 1st appearance as one the franchise's greatest moments, and Gogeta wouldn't even have been considered for DBS Broly if his appearance in Fusion Reborn wasn't iconic to many. So you're clearly off the mark here.

5. "Those two things don't correlate at all. There's plenty to be said about what a fusion is and how their components feel about it, both when fused and not, regardless of whether they're considered separate people. After all, if we're really supposed to see Gogeta and Vegetto as standalone from Goku and Vegeta, then they become even weaker because what we know about Goku and Vegeta doesn't matter, and the fusions are barely characterized. I'm not asking for "pseudo-deep introspection", I'm asking for them to be anywhere close to as developed as any other characters in the series. Even some lesser randos in the tournaments feel more realized than your typical fusion."

This is a ridiculous complaint, because even if they see themselves as a separate individual from their parts, its blatantly obvious from their general behavior and very being that they carry over the personality traits and memories of their halves. So there is no need for them to express how they view in relation to their halves because its common-sense. It is retarded to assume what we know about Goku and Vegeta doesn't matter when it comes to Vegito and Gogeta.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Shaddy » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:09 am

zarmack wrote: I said nothing about objective quality, you're putting words in my mouth. People are bored and/or entertained by different shit, so if fusion wasn't entertaining to the general public and much of the fandom, then nobody would demand for more Gogeta or Vegito (yet they do). The world doesn't revolve around your joys Shaddy.
You actually did effectively say that by implying that if something is popular and successful that it need not worry about how other people feel at all. Saying "the general public" means nothing because hardcore Dragon Ball fandom is already a niche. I know you really, really want to make me out as being selfish here, but the simple fact is that we both already knew this was only ever pertaining to the given individual's tastes from the start, because Toei and Toriyama have never been writing with those individuals in mind, because they're making a TV show to be viewable for a wide audience. That doesn't gate me off from talking about the things I think they're doing wrong.
zarmack wrote:
This whole argument here is a huge fallacy and a strawman. You show a complete lack of any kind of sound reasoning. Almost no one praises Revival of F (which was only watch because its a DB movie), the ending of the Black arc and DB Minus, and the DB Minus parts of the DBS Broly is NOT what people like about the film at large. Horrible arguments.
Yes! They were the horrible, stupid arguments I made up to illustrate YOUR point in action! Your "logic 101" that something still being profitable and existing means it's fine says that it doesn't matter what anyone thinks of quality as long as it's popular and successful. The fact that your only justification in response is "uhh most people don't think this" as of that is an objective measure of quality just proves what I'm saying! You're the one displaying a lack of understanding here. Also, that's not what a strawman is.
zarmack wrote: The mere fact that they are a hybrid of Goku and Vegeta alone makes them interesting, especially since they maintain literally everything about them.
Uh. No. Existing, having an origin point, is not what makes anyone interesting. It is always about who you are and how you act. This is basic shit. It's just a premise for a character, the execution is what matters. And the fact is that the execution is basically nothing. They don't "retain" Goku and Vegeta's traits, they water them down.
zarmack wrote: Nobody said they the most iconic, and speak for yourself
I am speaking for myself. I have been this whole time. I don't have to type "imo" after every sentence to let you know it's my opinion, if you can't gather that at this point you shouldn't be on the internet. Also, you said Vegetto's fight with Buu, because you were saying the fights were what mattered, not his first appearance. Those are different things, and a whole fight is not a "moment".
zarmack wrote:
This is a ridiculous complaint, because even if they see themselves as a separate individual from their parts, its blatantly obvious from their general behavior and very being that they carry over the personality traits and memories of their halves. So there is no need for them to express how they view in relation to their halves because its common-sense. It is retarded to assume what we know about Goku and Vegeta doesn't matter when it comes to Vegito and Gogeta.
Except you're the one who said they should be perceived separately. If they retain the personality and memories of the fusion and it's not an entirely different consciousness that just wakes up when they fuse, then it's not really as much a separate person. Also, again, there's never any real elaboration on what that experience feels like or means to them, so it's still functionally just a temporary power up for the both of them but only one vague imitation of either is active at a given time, rather than a whole new character being created. And that is boring. It's a design and nothing else. Believe it or not it is actually possible to create a combination of characters and come out with something that's unique and different to both.

And Jesus Christ dude, lrn2multiquote. I did this shit on my phone and this conversation was already kind of annoying to begin with.
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