Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[Artorias]

I have a criticism of this film that I've heard no one else really bring up. It's not major by any means, but it's just an interesting observation.

I feel like the ending beatdown by Gogeta on Broly clashes with the narrative at that point in the film. What I mean is, it seems to me that Toei wanted to have an epic last battle that went on decently long, and wanted to get as many talented animators in the finale as they could. So they crammed SEVERAL amazing cuts of animation by some of the industry's best one after the other. But that creates a problem, because every cut basically functions the same: show Gogeta beating the shit out of Broly. I think we can all agree the fight is spectacular and looks incredible, but this creates an weird feeling, at least in me, that stems from the fact that we're watching a supposedly sympathetic character get their shit rocked for like 10 straight minutes. So in the pursuit of wanting to show off a bunch of stellar fight scenes, they actually make that part of the fight go on far longer than it really should, and it feels unnatural to me. It's weird and almost uncomfortable to watch the protagonist just go to town on the bad guy as the finale to your fight, especially on a villain that really hasn't done anything wrong to anyone else and is obviously meant to be sympathetic to the audience. It's almost like they want you to feel bad for Broly, yet the movie doesn't play this up at all. It still acts like you're supposed to be cheering in your seat as Gogeta savagely beats the poor guy down.

Just a weird clash of visuals and narrative that I found interesting.

I can agree with some of that statement. It was like Gogeta completely forgot about Gokus conversation with Broly earlier about knowing he’s not a bad guy. But I also remember that Vegeta showed no hesitation in trying to kill Broly when he was in SSG.

Where I completely disagree with you is how you’re implying that the animators were trying to get us to cheer for Gogeta beating down Broly. Not sure how your theatre was, but people were sounding a little disgruntled in mine. They also clapped when Broly disappeared. The beat down helped build sympathy for the character after watching Gogeta be a bully.

I haven't actually gone to the theatre yet, I've just seen a high quality cam rip. And I wouldn't really say it's the animators that I'm criticizing here, it more has to do with the directors/storyboarder/whoever else is in charge of deciding the length and structure of the fight scene. And the thing is, what you're saying about it building sympathy would be a great, interesting idea, having the finale flipped upside down and making the "good guys" look like brutal assholes. Except again, the vibe I at least personally got was that the movie wanted me to be cheering for Broly to get his ass kicked. You and others may be different, though. I feel like all they would've had to do is 2 things: 1) Make the scene more bloody/intense to really show how badly Broly was getting hurt, and 2) Cut to Cheelai more often and really delve into her panic as Broly is about to be killed.

[Doctor.]

I'm sorry did Beerus and Whis go to the future at any point in the Zamasu arc? They said it wasn't their problem. Sure, they may give their advice, and try to find creative solutions, but it was made extremely clear that "get Beerus and Whis to beat up the bad guy" is not an option. Otherwise, they would have gone to the future and curb-stomped Black and Zamasu. Did they intervene in the ToP? They were cheerleaders the entire arc.

Missing the forest for the trees. Beerus didn't go to the future but he still helped uncover who Black was, killed Zamasu and ignored the multiple trips to the future which are supposedly transgressions. And in the Freeza arc, Whis turned back time and let Goku try again.

The only arcs Beerus and Whis didn't help were BoG, where they were antagonists, the Champa arc, where they weren't in any real danger, and the ToP, where the antagonists (Zeno) were far more powerful than them. In the other arcs where Goku & co were being threatened by a legitimate villain that Beerus could handle, they always helped. Obviously they won't outright kill the villain, but to imply they'll let Goku die or the Earth be destroyed when they've repeatedly proven the contrary is just being disingenious.

Sure, they could have acknowledged Potara as an option and discard it for whatever reason. Not exactly a big deal to me. Especially since they already tried Vegetto and it didn't work for shit. MetaMoran fusion is a fusion made by mortals for mortals. Potara is a fusion made by Gods for Gods to use. Makes sense that Metamoran would

A writer when introducing a new plot device should always explain why the previous ones aren't valid in this situation. That's just good attention to detail, and it's what separates a good script from a bland and sterile one. Or else, the audience is left wondering why they randomly decided to use this method when there are more practical methods at hand. Take an example from Super: when Goku used the Kaioken for the first time, he explained how he could only use it now, so the audience isn't left wondering why he never used it with other forms (or why, in the future, he can't use it with other forms). That's attention to detail and covering your bases. An explanation is always better than none.

I don't see how any of this this inhibits Gogeta from fitting thematically into the movie. What exactly would you have preferred been the solution to defeating Broly?

I would have preferred that Gogeta fit in thematically with the narrative that was being told rather than being shoehorned in clearly for the sake of fanservice. Nobody's saying Gogeta shouldn't have been in this movie; he just shouldn't have been in this movie in the way that it was written.

[foxfang4]

I saw it. It's incredible. Despite what the haters are saying about the pandering, The cynic in me accepts that, and I actually appreciate it when it's done with quality top-tier craftsmanship. This movie is going to be a monster hit and it's such an important milestone for Dragon Ball. From this alone, the series could continue for a decade.

[foxfang4]

I'm sorry did Beerus and Whis go to the future at any point in the Zamasu arc? They said it wasn't their problem. Sure, they may give their advice, and try to find creative solutions, but it was made extremely clear that "get Beerus and Whis to beat up the bad guy" is not an option. Otherwise, they would have gone to the future and curb-stomped Black and Zamasu. Did they intervene in the ToP? They were cheerleaders the entire arc.

Missing the forest for the trees. Beerus didn't go to the future but he still helped uncover who Black was, killed Zamasu and ignored the multiple trips to the future which are supposedly transgressions. And in the Freeza arc, Whis turned back time and let Goku try again.

The only arcs Beerus and Whis didn't help were BoG, where they were antagonists, the Champa arc, where they weren't in any real danger, and the ToP, where the antagonists (Zeno) were far more powerful than them. In the other arcs where Goku & co were being threatened by a legitimate villain that Beerus could handle, they always helped. Obviously they won't outright kill the villain, but to imply they'll let Goku die or the Earth be destroyed when they've repeatedly proven the contrary is just being disingenious.

Sure, they could have acknowledged Potara as an option and discard it for whatever reason. Not exactly a big deal to me. Especially since they already tried Vegetto and it didn't work for shit. MetaMoran fusion is a fusion made by mortals for mortals. Potara is a fusion made by Gods for Gods to use. Makes sense that Metamoran would

A writer when introducing a new plot device should always explain why the previous ones aren't valid in this situation. That's just good attention to detail, and it's what separates a good script from a bland and sterile one. Or else, the audience is left wondering why they randomly decided to use this method when there are more practical methods at hand. Take an example from Super: when Goku used the Kaioken for the first time, he explained how he could only use it now, so the audience isn't left wondering why he never used it with other forms (or why, in the future, he can't use it with other forms). That's attention to detail and covering your bases. An explanation is always better than none.

I don't see how any of this this inhibits Gogeta from fitting thematically into the movie. What exactly would you have preferred been the solution to defeating Broly?

I would have preferred that Gogeta fit in thematically with the narrative that was being told rather than being shoehorned in clearly for the sake of fanservice. Nobody's saying Gogeta shouldn't have been in this movie; he just shouldn't have been in this movie in the way that it was written.

I used to be a big wrestling fan. And over the years I've noticed that TV shows are often written using an identical formula to achieve certain goals. You'll notice things like "heel turns" (good guy becomes bad) or "face turns" (bad guys becomes good...IE: Like what happens in this movie). One of the most important goals for their writers is "protecting the characters". That's exactly what happens in this movie. Toriyama had to figure out a way to make Broly lose and look awesome at the same time. Why? Obviously they want to continue using the Broly brand. So you can't have him lose simply to Vegeta and Goku. Narratively, Gogeta was the only answer available to Toriyama. Then you can add on the financial benefits of adding a character like Gogeta. There's just way too many benefits to using Gogeta for TOEI. And, I forgave it just because the visuals were so incredible. And I know that this film's purpose is mostly to catapult Dragon Ball to the mainstream. So, it is what it is. I take the good from it. And there's a lot of good.

[Doctor.]

I'm sorry did Beerus and Whis go to the future at any point in the Zamasu arc? They said it wasn't their problem. Sure, they may give their advice, and try to find creative solutions, but it was made extremely clear that "get Beerus and Whis to beat up the bad guy" is not an option. Otherwise, they would have gone to the future and curb-stomped Black and Zamasu. Did they intervene in the ToP? They were cheerleaders the entire arc.

Missing the forest for the trees. Beerus didn't go to the future but he still helped uncover who Black was, killed Zamasu and ignored the multiple trips to the future which are supposedly transgressions. And in the Freeza arc, Whis turned back time and let Goku try again.

The only arcs Beerus and Whis didn't help were BoG, where they were antagonists, the Champa arc, where they weren't in any real danger, and the ToP, where the antagonists (Zeno) were far more powerful than them. In the other arcs where Goku & co were being threatened by a legitimate villain that Beerus could handle, they always helped. Obviously they won't outright kill the villain, but to imply they'll let Goku die or the Earth be destroyed when they've repeatedly proven the contrary is just being disingenious.

Sure, they could have acknowledged Potara as an option and discard it for whatever reason. Not exactly a big deal to me. Especially since they already tried Vegetto and it didn't work for shit. MetaMoran fusion is a fusion made by mortals for mortals. Potara is a fusion made by Gods for Gods to use. Makes sense that Metamoran would

A writer when introducing a new plot device should always explain why the previous ones aren't valid in this situation. That's just good attention to detail, and it's what separates a good script from a bland and sterile one. Or else, the audience is left wondering why they randomly decided to use this method when there are more practical methods at hand. Take an example from Super: when Goku used the Kaioken for the first time, he explained how he could only use it now, so the audience isn't left wondering why he never used it with other forms (or why, in the future, he can't use it with other forms). That's attention to detail and covering your bases. An explanation is always better than none.

I don't see how any of this this inhibits Gogeta from fitting thematically into the movie. What exactly would you have preferred been the solution to defeating Broly?

I would have preferred that Gogeta fit in thematically with the narrative that was being told rather than being shoehorned in clearly for the sake of fanservice. Nobody's saying Gogeta shouldn't have been in this movie; he just shouldn't have been in this movie in the way that it was written.

I used to be a big wrestling fan. And over the years I've noticed that TV shows are often written using an identical formula to achieve certain goals. You'll notice things like "heel turns" (good guy becomes bad) or "face turns" (bad guys becomes good...IE: Like what happens in this movie). One of the most important goals for their writers is "protecting the characters". That's exactly what happens in this movie. Toriyama had to figure out a way to make Broly lose and look awesome at the same time. Why? Obviously they want to continue using the Broly brand. So you can't have him lose simply to Vegeta and Goku. Narratively, Gogeta was the only answer available to Toriyama. Then you can add on the financial benefits of adding a character like Gogeta. There's just way too many benefits to using Gogeta for TOEI. And, I forgave it just because the visuals were so incredible. And I know that this film's purpose is mostly to catapult Dragon Ball to the mainstream. So, it is what it is. I take the good from it. And there's a lot of good.

I'm not saying it's a major issue. I'm saying it is an issue, especially when this movie falsely advertised a focus on its story only to throw away any pretense of a compelling narrative halfway through.

And Dragon Ball IS mainstream.

[foxfang4]

Missing the forest for the trees. Beerus didn't go to the future but he still helped uncover who Black was, killed Zamasu and ignored the multiple trips to the future which are supposedly transgressions. And in the Freeza arc, Whis turned back time and let Goku try again.

The only arcs Beerus and Whis didn't help were BoG, where they were antagonists, the Champa arc, where they weren't in any real danger, and the ToP, where the antagonists (Zeno) were far more powerful than them. In the other arcs where Goku & co were being threatened by a legitimate villain that Beerus could handle, they always helped. Obviously they won't outright kill the villain, but to imply they'll let Goku die or the Earth be destroyed when they've repeatedly proven the contrary is just being disingenious.



A writer when introducing a new plot device should always explain why the previous ones aren't valid in this situation. That's just good attention to detail, and it's what separates a good script from a bland and sterile one. Or else, the audience is left wondering why they randomly decided to use this method when there are more practical methods at hand. Take an example from Super: when Goku used the Kaioken for the first time, he explained how he could only use it now, so the audience isn't left wondering why he never used it with other forms (or why, in the future, he can't use it with other forms). That's attention to detail and covering your bases. An explanation is always better than none.


I would have preferred that Gogeta fit in thematically with the narrative that was being told rather than being shoehorned in clearly for the sake of fanservice. Nobody's saying Gogeta shouldn't have been in this movie; he just shouldn't have been in this movie in the way that it was written.

I used to be a big wrestling fan. And over the years I've noticed that TV shows are often written using an identical formula to achieve certain goals. You'll notice things like "heel turns" (good guy becomes bad) or "face turns" (bad guys becomes good...IE: Like what happens in this movie). One of the most important goals for their writers is "protecting the characters". That's exactly what happens in this movie. Toriyama had to figure out a way to make Broly lose and look awesome at the same time. Why? Obviously they want to continue using the Broly brand. So you can't have him lose simply to Vegeta and Goku. Narratively, Gogeta was the only answer available to Toriyama. Then you can add on the financial benefits of adding a character like Gogeta. There's just way too many benefits to using Gogeta for TOEI. And, I forgave it just because the visuals were so incredible. And I know that this film's purpose is mostly to catapult Dragon Ball to the mainstream. So, it is what it is. I take the good from it. And there's a lot of good.

I'm not saying it's a major issue. I'm saying it is an issue, especially when this movie falsely advertised a focus on its story only to throw away any pretense of a compelling narrative halfway through.

And Dragon Ball IS mainstream.

I don't think it throws away the compelling narrative at all. In fact, it stays true to it. Basically from the moment the 2 Frieza soldiers (I forget their names) meet Broly, the film focuses on the conflict of them trying to stop Broly from fulfilling Paragus' and Frieza's ambitions. Goku adds to that during the battle. I thought the ending was a bit rushed, but it did resolve everything a (more or less) satisfying way. The scenes that appear halfway (which build sympathy for Broly) are key to its 3rd act (involving Shenron and those 2 Frieza soldiers).

BTW, I thought the Sci-Fi world of Frieza's army was really well executed. I could tell Toriyama took inspiration from Cameron (Aliens) (especially the bunker/diner scenes) and its overall aesthetic was really cool/believable. Sort of a worn in, used universe styled in the original Star Wars trilogy. That's not exactly easy to pull off.

[Melkaniator]

Where did you watch it? Because in my theatre, everyone clapped when Broly disappeared.

Aguadilla, Purto Rico

(Though I also so pirated version with similar reaction)

In mine they ALSO clapped when Broly got his ass saved by his fangirl, it's not that they wanted Broly to be killed, but they wanted Gogeta's power shown to be eclipsing Broly's.

Broly was super stupidly powerful in this movie, him harming Gogeta would've been even more stupid, in the original Goku beat Broly with a single punch, in this one he took a beating, that's an improvement.

When Gogeta trapped Broly in energy then made it explout, I could hear "whooo!" "Yeah, take that!" "Gogeta! Gogeta! Gogeta!"

[zarmack]

I said nothing about objective quality, you're putting words in my mouth. People are bored and/or entertained by different shit, so if fusion wasn't entertaining to the general public and much of the fandom, then nobody would demand for more Gogeta or Vegito (yet they do). The world doesn't revolve around your joys Shaddy.

You actually did effectively say that by implying that if something is popular and successful that it need not worry about how other people feel at all. Saying "the general public" means nothing because hardcore Dragon Ball fandom is already a niche. I know you really, really want to make me out as being selfish here, but the simple fact is that we both already knew this was only ever pertaining to the given individual's tastes from the start, because Toei and Toriyama have never been writing with those individuals in mind, because they're making a TV show to be viewable for a wide audience. That doesn't gate me off from talking about the things I think they're doing wrong.

This whole argument here is a huge fallacy and a strawman. You show a complete lack of any kind of sound reasoning. Almost no one praises Revival of F (which was only watch because its a DB movie), the ending of the Black arc and DB Minus, and the DB Minus parts of the DBS Broly is NOT what people like about the film at large. Horrible arguments.

Yes! They were the horrible, stupid arguments I made up to illustrate YOUR point in action! Your "logic 101" that something still being profitable and existing means it's fine says that it doesn't matter what anyone thinks of quality as long as it's popular and successful. The fact that your only justification in response is "uhh most people don't think this" as of that is an objective measure of quality just proves what I'm saying! You're the one displaying a lack of understanding here. Also, that's not what a strawman is.

The mere fact that they are a hybrid of Goku and Vegeta alone makes them interesting, especially since they maintain literally everything about them.

Uh. No. Existing, having an origin point, is not what makes anyone interesting. It is always about who you are and how you act. This is basic shit. It's just a premise for a character, the execution is what matters. And the fact is that the execution is basically nothing. They don't "retain" Goku and Vegeta's traits, they water them down.

Nobody said they the most iconic, and speak for yourself

I am speaking for myself. I have been this whole time. I don't have to type "imo" after every sentence to let you know it's my opinion, if you can't gather that at this point you shouldn't be on the internet. Also, you said Vegetto's fight with Buu, because you were saying the fights were what mattered, not his first appearance. Those are different things, and a whole fight is not a "moment".

This is a ridiculous complaint, because even if they see themselves as a separate individual from their parts, its blatantly obvious from their general behavior and very being that they carry over the personality traits and memories of their halves. So there is no need for them to express how they view in relation to their halves because its common-sense. It is retarded to assume what we know about Goku and Vegeta doesn't matter when it comes to Vegito and Gogeta.

Except you're the one who said they should be perceived separately. If they retain the personality and memories of the fusion and it's not an entirely different consciousness that just wakes up when they fuse, then it's not really as much a separate person. Also, again, there's never any real elaboration on what that experience feels like or means to them, so it's still functionally just a temporary power up for the both of them but only one vague imitation of either is active at a given time, rather than a whole new character being created. And that is boring. It's a design and nothing else. Believe it or not it is actually possible to create a combination of characters and come out with something that's unique and different to both.

And Jesus Christ dude, lrn2multiquote. I did this shit on my phone and this conversation was already kind of annoying to begin with.

1. "Yes! They were the horrible, stupid arguments I made up to illustrate YOUR point in action! Your "logic 101" that something still being profitable and existing means it's fine says that it doesn't matter what anyone thinks of quality as long as it's popular and successful. The fact that your only justification in response is "uhh most people don't think this" as of that is an objective measure of quality just proves what I'm saying! You're the one displaying a lack of understanding here. Also, that's not what a strawman is."

Yet another strawman . Nowhere did I imply that something is okay if its successful, I already said I wasn't talking about objective quality (a shit movie could still be entertaining, ex. The Room), only if something of entertaining or not. Learn how 2 read. The fact you can only argue by misrepresenting your opponent speaks volumes about you.

2. "Uh. No. Existing, having an origin point, is not what makes anyone interesting. It is always about who you are and how you act. This is basic shit. It's just a premise for a character, the execution is what matters. And the fact is that the execution is basically nothing. They don't "retain" Goku and Vegeta's traits, they water them down."

They act virtually the same as Goku and Vegeta do in action, and what they do and how they act (combined with who they're made from) is exactly what makes Gogeta and Vegito popular. You are basically undermining your own arguments.

3. "Except you're the one who said they should be perceived separately."

I never said they should be perceived separately, I said they perceive themselves as separate individuals even though they essentially aren't. (Reading Comprehension 101).

4. "Also, you said Vegetto's fight with Buu, because you were saying the fights were what mattered, not his first appearance. Those are different things, and a whole fight is not a "moment"."

Vegito's fight with Super Buu is the whole of his 1st appearance, you're making a false dichotomy (another fallacy). And a fight scene is a "moment", a single event that happens at a single point in time. Common sense bro.

[Lord Beerus]

DBS Broly currently has 77% Critic Rating on Rotten Tomatoes.

[Shaddy]

Nowhere did I imply that something is okay if its successful, I already said I wasn't talking about objective quality (a shit movie could still be entertaining, ex. The Room), only if something of entertaining or not. The fact you can only argue by misrepresenting your opponent speaks volumes about you.

You said that fusions were not boring, and your given 'logic' for this was that they are popular, successful, requested etc. I just applied this to other scenarios, there was no need for "misrepresentation" because it was broken and terrible from the start.

They act virtually the same as Goku and Vegeta do in action, and what they do and how they act (combined with who they're made from) is exactly what makes Gogeta and Vegito popular. You are basically undermining your own arguments.

You don't get to decide why people like the things they like. If they actually were well-characterized as a combination of Goku and Vegeta, neither of us would be here. They're not unique combinations of Goku and Vegeta, they're admittedly-cool designs that halfheartedly imitate one of them at a given time, switching back and forth. That's not what a combined personality is unless your writing is extremely basic. Which, it's Dragon Ball, so it is, but I always like to think of ways the series could improve.

I never said they should be perceived separately, I said they perceive themselves as separate individuals even though they essentially aren't.

Except that's very wrong. How the characters perceive themselves is valid on it's own. If neither the story or characters treat them separately, I have no reason to take your word for it. The truth is that they're badly written, even by Dragon Ball standards.

Vegito's fight with Super Buu is the whole of his 1st appearance. And a fight scene is a "moment", a single event that happens at a single point in time.

Even if that wasn't wrong, it would only show, again, that fusions are not interesting at all. Because their only purpose to serve is that of a power-up to the heroes where only one of them at a given time is active, and not to have any identity of their own. And that's boring. A complete waste of potential. That was actually my point from the start, as much as I know you want to distract from it to insult me some more.

And listen, I know you really, reeeeeaally wanna trap me into some shitty gotcha moment here by shouting "fallacy" over and over, but it's not gonna happen. I'm not interested, I'm not lowering myself to that childish nonsense. Take it somewhere else.

Also, seriously, you can just copy the quote and cut out the text. It's really not hard, it's way more organized.

DBS Broly currently has 77% Critic Rating on Rotten Tomatoes.

Huh, yet Revival F has an 81. I wonder what makes the difference, especially for critics who aren't already fans? I can't in good faith say there's a single thing done better in that movie, other than maybe having a concrete villain that the heroes actually kill instead of just letting him get away.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Huh, yet Revival F has an 81. I wonder what makes the difference, especially for critics who aren't already fans? I can't in good faith say there's a single thing done better in that movie, other than maybe having a concrete villain that the heroes actually kill instead of just letting him get away.

RoF score is based on 16 reviews, 3 of which are negative.

Broly score is based on 13 reviews, 3 of which are negative.

Difference is mostly a matter of sample size.

[Shaddy]

Oh, and some of them seem to have numeric scores, where as others seem to be a binary like/dislike? How weird. Every type of art and every review hub of those types seems to score things differently, as much as I champion there being no objective criticism, things sure as fuck would be easier if this shit was more standardized.

[zarmack]

You said that fusions were not boring, and your given 'logic' for this was that they are popular, successful, requested etc. I just applied this to other scenarios, there was no need for "misrepresentation" because it was broken and terrible from the start.

Yet you failed to adequately explain why fusion is boring. Your "argument" boils down to "I don't like them so they suck"

You don't get to decide why people like the things they like. If they actually were well-characterized as a combination of Goku and Vegeta, neither of us would be here. They're not unique combinations of Goku and Vegeta, they're admittedly-cool designs that halfheartedly imitate one of them at a given time, switching back and forth. That's not what a combined personality is unless your writing is extremely basic. Which, it's Dragon Ball, so it is, but I always like to think of ways the series could improve.

This is pure autism. Your argument is based on the fallacy that they essentially different people (which they aren't). How are they "switching back and forth" if they are expressing traits from both characters simultaneously? You aren't making any sense and it comes across like you have a spergish view of how personalities work.

"You don't get to decide why people like the things they like."

I pointed out why many fans like them from their own comments over the years. It is you that's trying to decide what and why people like what they do.

Except that's very wrong. How the characters perceive themselves is valid on it's own. If neither the story or characters treat them separately, I have no reason to take your word for it. The truth is that they're badly written, even by Dragon Ball standards.

This is an ridiculous argument. How a character (or real life person) perceives themselves has often little to do with objective reality. How the hell is it bad writing when it isn't even a major factor for the fused characters themselves (you said it yourself that the story doesn't give much importance to it, so why are you complaining?) There's many people who perceive themselves as being the opposite sex, even though they are objectively not (like trans people). There's retards who perceive themselves as smart. There's incompetent scum who see themselves as skilled, etc. Again, you fail to make any sense.

Even if that wasn't wrong, it would only show, again, that fusions are not interesting at all. Because their only purpose to serve is that of a power-up to the heroes where only one of them at a given time is active, and not to have any identity of their own. And that's boring. A complete waste of potential. That was actually my point from the start, as much as I know you want to distract from it to insult me some more.

What exactly is so uninteresting about a hybrid of the 2 main heroes with lots of attitude?

"Because their only purpose to serve is that of a power-up to the heroes where only one of them at a given time is active, and not to have any identity of their own."

By that "logic", all antagonist in any fiction are uninteresting because they narratively only exist as a wall for the protagonist to overcome. You see how dumb that argument is? You can make any character look bad by reducing them to their narrative function.

Huh, yet Revival F has an 81. I wonder what makes the difference, especially for critics who aren't already fans? I can't in good faith say there's a single thing done better in that movie, other than maybe having a concrete villain that the heroes actually kill instead of just letting him get away.

Now you are going on an irrelevant tangent. Nobody in this debate was arguing over RoF vs DBS Broly. This is getting tedious.

[WittyUsername]

Oh, and some of them seem to have numeric scores, where as others seem to be a binary like/dislike? How weird. Every type of art and every review hub of those types seems to score things differently, as much as I champion there being no objective criticism, things sure as fuck would be easier if this shit was more standardized.

This movie does currently have a higher average rating than RF (6.6 vs 6.2), so there’s that.

Also, can I just go ahead and say that I have no clue why RF is rated as highly as it is? I pretty much feel the same way about that movie as I feel about Rogue One: A Star Wars Story. To me, it just feels like a completely hollow film that doesn’t work outside of the shallow fanservice.

[Shaddy]

Yet you failed to adequately explain why fusion is boring. Your "argument" boils down to "I don't like them so they suck"

I've repeated several times that they serve no purpose outside of combat, and in-combat don't have anything that makes them unique from their components while actively exhibiting less-interesting aspects of both.

This is pure autism. Your argument is based on the fallacy that they essentially different people (which they aren't). How are they "switching back and forth" if they are expressing traits from both characters simultaneously? You aren't making any sense and it comes across like you have a spergish view of how personalities work.

Ooh, edgy. Breaking out the "autist" and "sperg" insults now. Besides that still not being what fallacies are, you can be a fusion while still exhibiting traits unique to you. It's the difference between Goku and Vegeta sharing a body that periodically swaps control between them and Goku and Vegeta's personalities being combined. If you're really having this much trouble understanding I don't know why this is the point where you decided to start attacking my mental state.

I pointed out why many fans like them from their own comments over the years. It is you that's trying to decide what and why people like what they do.

Um, no? I've stated my opinion. Nothing else. And as with before, saying a lot of people feel the same way you do doesn't do anything for you, because we are already individuals. I already know my opinion doesn't have an effect on what makes money and gets popular in this series.

This is an ridiculous argument. How a character (or real life person) perceives themselves has often little to do with objective reality.

Because the way they view themselves is all the story gives us. You proposing that they're not separate and only believe they are isn't a part of the story.

How the hell is it bad writing when it isn't even a major factor for the fused characters themselves (you said it yourself that the story doesn't give much importance to it, so why are you complaining?)

Because, as I have said, it's wasted potential. The idea of fusion is an interesting one because contrasting or overpowering traits of the fusee's personalities, especially nuanced or hidden ones, can have a massive effect on how that character acts. What we see in Dragon Ball's fusions is just a bunch of fighting, so it's really no different than if Vegeta got knocked out, and Goku got a power-up while doing a kind of lame impersonation of Vegeta.

There's many people who perceive themselves as being the opposite sex, even though they are objectively not (like trans people). There's retards who perceive themselves as smart. There's incompetent scum who see themselves as skilled, etc. Again, you fail to make any sense.

Yeesh.

So I'm gonna leave most of the things wrong with this up to the mods and just say that every fusion is presented the same way and seems to feel exactly the same about themselves. Moreover, the story does not at any point imply that they are anything but their own people. They have the memories and techniques of their fusees, but they are given different names, signify a change in the battle, and by all promotional and writing material are written with the intention of appearing different. There's no evidence, in-universe or otherwise, to what you say you believe here, and given the nature of this argument I'm not even fully convinced you do believe it and aren't just being contrarian. A fusion character having to deal with or reject the fact that they were not a complete person in their own, that would make for an interesting development. So naturally, it doesn't exist at all within the story.

What exactly is so uninteresting about a hybrid of the 2 main heroes with lots of attitude?

The fact that it's basically superfluous, and never fully explored? Dragon Ball does this all the time. It comes up with a neat idea then never does anything with it beyond the bare minimum of fighting. For example, there's some tournaments with U6 saiyans, but we never dive deep into Sadala, or maybe Vegeta's impression of an entire planet of his people existing with a totally different history. Or for another example: 17 and 18 were originally humans, but we never hear about the kind of people they were, what becoming cyborgs did to them physically and emotionally, whether they regret it, or whether they even remember the people they were before. And that stuff's just a couple examples in a sea full of em.

This fusion stuff is par for the course by all means, but I'm pointing it out because it's a topic that came up, and something I want to see improve.

By that "logic", all antagonist in any fiction are uninteresting because they narratively only exist as a wall for the protagonist to overcome. You see how dumb that argument is? You can make any character look bad by reducing them to their narrative function.

In Dragon Ball, that's often completely true. That's another problem with the series, a lot of the villains don't have much character in their own right. But I'm not simplifying much at all when I say that fusions serve very little purpose in the story, they don't have any growth or change of their own, and their use doesn't seem to effect the characters who comprise them at all. They've never even definitively won a fight on their own, as far as I can remember. The design, the name, the vague approximation of a "combined" personality...none of it is in service of anything but fluff, and you could remove several instances of it without much work or change at all. It's cool to look at, sure, but it's totally flat.

Now you are going on an irrelevant tangent. Nobody in this debate was arguing over RoF vs DBS Broly. This is getting tedious.

I was just remarking on the different scores. I wasn't even talking to you. I'm allowed to talk to other people in the same post, you know.

This movie does currently have a higher average rating than RF (6.6 vs 6.2), so there’s that.

Also, can I just go ahead and say that I have no clue why RF is rated as highly as it is? I pretty much feel the same way about that movie as I feel about Rogue One: A Star Wars Story. To me, it just feels like a completely hollow film that doesn’t work outside of the shallow fanservice.

People liked RF way better when it came out, myself included. To make a Star Wars comparison of my own, it's kind of like when The Force Awakens came out and it was heralded as the insanely great coming of a new age, but in the following year it turned around a lot to just being seen as a rehash of A New Hope. Those reviews didn't go away, but the impressions sure changed. I mean, TFA is probably still a better movie than RoF even if it is that, but you get what I'm saying.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

On the topic movie rating, here's all 20 movies reception by anime watchers:

(source: myanimelist.com)

DBMovie 1: Curse of the Blood Rubies - 6.99 (22.7k votes)

DBMovie 2: Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle - 6.95 (20.1k)

DBMovie 3: Mystical Adventure - 7.02 (18.5k)

DBMovie 4: Path to Power - 7.27 (19.1k)

DBZMovie 1: Dead Zone - 6.86 (75.5k)

DBZMovie 2: The World's Strongest - 6.81 (70.3k)

DBZMovie 3: The Tree of Might - 6.91 (78.2k)

DBZMovie 4: Lord Slug - 6.76 (70.3k)

DBZMovie 5: Cooler's Revenge - 7.19 (51.3k)

DBZMovie 6: The Return of Cooler - 7.01 (47.5k)

DBZMovie 7: Super Android 13 - 7.06 (44.3k)

DBZMovie 8: Broly The Legendary Super Saiyan - 7.52 (60.6k)

DBZMovie 9: Bojack Unbound - 7.29 (43.5k)

DBZmovie 10: Broly Second Coming - 7.01 (47.4k)

DBZMovie 11: Bio-Broly - 6.15 (43.1k)

DBZMovie 12: Fusion Reborn - 7.68 (51.5k)

DBZMovie 13: Wrath of the Dragon - 7.49 (43.8k)

DBZMovie 14: Battle of Gods - 7.55 (72.3k)

DBZMovie 15: Ressurection 'F - 7.35 (49.4k)

DBSMovie 1: Broly - 8.24 (2k)

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When it releases on USA and Europe I expect the movie to end up somewhere on the higher end of 7 and still remain the highest rated movie.

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Bonus: How do the most noteworthy specials compare?

SP1: Bardock the Father of Goki - 7.69 (40.2k)

SP2: The History of Trunks - 7.81 (38.7k)

[Shaddy]

In fairness I'm pretty sure like 80% of everything on MAL is scored above 6 and below 9.

[FortuneSSJ]

I finally watched the Movie and I had a great time.

Strong movie in all fronts, but unsurprisingly Toriyama's writing is the weakest part.
They overdid it with the CGI and even though it's much better than BOG/ROF, I would rather them to redraw the characters in 2D like they did in One Piece Film Z.
The wrestling shouts didn't bother me, but they were unnecessary.

If we get an extended version, I would like them to focus on Saiyan's backstory, because there's already enough fighting and that part was clearly the one that suffered the most with the length. If get an anime version, I would like them to just recycle everything while adding the new scenes.

The incredible visuals are easily the strongest point of this movie, so get rid of that and remake everything from scratch isn't smart. It already wasn't with BOG/ROF Movies and those Movies visuals weren't nothing special.

As for Broly character, Toriyama's Base Broly is the best version of the character, but once he starts losing control he has as much personality as Toei Broly in Movie 10.
It goes like this: Toriyama's Base Broly > LSSJ Broly Movie 8 > Toriyama's Raged Broly = Broly Movie 10

[Melkaniator]

If we get an extended version...

I hope this doesn't happen again, waste of time.

The incredible visuals are easily the strongest point of this movie, so get rid of that and remake everything from scratch isn't smart. It already wasn't with BOG/ROF Movies and those Movies visuals weren't nothing special.

Well, if they do it, they will NOT literally recycle the same scenes from the movie, obviously.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Finally watched the film this morning.

As expected, the highlight was the excellent latin american dub. the new voices were on point and the returning cast knocked out of the park, especially Ricardo Brust since all that screaming must have done a number on his throat.

From animation standpoint, it was beautifully animated but there was a sequence were either budget, time or both ran out and the quality took a very noticeable dive. Also, I found the long fights to be a flaw rather than an asset since it came to a point where everything just started to blur together for me, and the different camera angles and the like made difficult to follow the action.

The music didn't leave much of an impression on me, and the announcer gimmick was just dumb.

So the plot.

The first act is by far the strongest part of the film, Bardock, Paragus and King Vegeta are strong characters on their own right and the setting lends itself to much more. That said, I do feel like the Bardock special was the better take on him. This section is also weirdly edited, making obvious they cut a chunk of it, Goke is sent to Earth and immediately afterwards Freezer destroy Planet Vegeta but the brief scenes show some time has passed, and worse, Bardock's last stand was also cut, only leaving the moment where he tries to stop the Supernova but without buildup it comes off like a poor attempt at placating the criticisms towards Minus' retcons.

This take in Broly does have a lot of room to grow and better define his character as the series moves forward, but I found OG Broly to work better with the idea of an unstoppable saiyan and a real threat. Plus, this new version comes off feeling too much like Goku and personally, I find that idea boring. Monkey Doomsday, gleefully wrecking stuff was entertaining to see at least while I have no much interest on seeing another saiyan learning about human society and becoming best buddies with Goku and Vegeta.

Outside of that, the film is just what one has come to expect from DB with no real surprises, I didn't like the pacing, things go pretty slow after the Past scenes end, and then the action goes too long.

Decent film, better than BoG and RoF but definitely not living up to the hype.