Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by bleed0range » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:47 pm

WeLoveBroly wrote:Minor peeve but are we really expected to believe Broly was fighting Frieza for an entire hour considering that the goku Freeza fight only took 5 minutes and the fighters are moving at light speed?
I like to think Freeza has toughened up enough from his time in Hell to take it. He doesn’t seem terribly injured when Gogeta shows up.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Lord Frieza » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:59 pm

bleed0range wrote:
WeLoveBroly wrote:Minor peeve but are we really expected to believe Broly was fighting Frieza for an entire hour considering that the goku Freeza fight only took 5 minutes and the fighters are moving at light speed?
I like to think Freeza has toughened up enough from his time in Hell to take it. He doesn’t seem terribly injured when Gogeta shows up.
Just adds weight to Vegeta's fears that Frieza could get stronger and be a real threat again one day.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by TobyS » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:50 pm

WeLoveBroly wrote:Minor peeve but are we really expected to believe Broly was fighting Frieza for an entire hour considering that the goku Freeza fight only took 5 minutes and the fighters are moving at light speed?
Yeah maybe it'd work for Buu but it makes no sense he couldn't kill Freeza in that amount of time. All for a gag of failed fusions....

I hope if there's a manga adaption the fails are left out, or they run in and out of the RoSAT to speed up the clock.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Artorias » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:48 pm

One thing I really wanna highlight that I was thinking about was the dub changes. THESE are the kinds of dub changes that I enjoy and are totally fine with me, unlike much of Super, which I think has been frankly embarrassing at certain parts. This is how you do dub changes. Innocent small jokes that add to the experience, like the "Have fun Freeza!" from Goku. It makes sense, it's in character, and it adds to the comedy of an already funny scene. Or even actually fixing mistakes the sub made, where there's a mouthflap for Gogeta when they go into the alternate dimension, but he doesn't actually say anything, which comes off as weird. More of these kinds of dub changes, and less of "time to make the donuts", or "the calming nature of the Kaioken"

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:52 am

saiyanhajime wrote: Whilst I'm here, I posted a fairly in depth spoiler review on Tumblr, if anyone enjoys reading such things. I talk about the things that matter most to me - aesthetics, headcanon and characterisation.
Good review, though you have confused the original Broly's Kakarot beef with the very spelled out justification given in DBZ Abridged Broly.
DHM211 wrote:Minor pet peeve with Frieza's design in this film, while I understand they wanted to give him his manga coloring for his first form, they gave him his anime coloring for his second and third. They should have just stuck with one color palette for him.
Good catch, is this also the case when Kikono brings uo his other forms?
Furthermore since they went out of the way to change Freeza's colour to match Toriyama's original, I don't see why they didn't take this as an opportunity to change Trunks' hair colour too. It was the perfect time to do it, but I guess he isn't important enough...

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by LifeLight » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:10 am

Lord Frieza wrote:
bleed0range wrote:
WeLoveBroly wrote:Minor peeve but are we really expected to believe Broly was fighting Frieza for an entire hour considering that the goku Freeza fight only took 5 minutes and the fighters are moving at light speed?
I like to think Freeza has toughened up enough from his time in Hell to take it. He doesn’t seem terribly injured when Gogeta shows up.
Just adds weight to Vegeta's fears that Frieza could get stronger and be a real threat again one day.
He already is a real threat at the current moment. Let's remember Golden Frieza is pretty much equal to Goku at SSB. It didn't take long for him to catch up in just 4 months and even get stronger while he was in Hell. Just imagine what he could do in say... 2 -5 more years of training. He could probably have a good shot at taking Goku down right now if he tried, but problem is he's also gotta worry about Vegeta, Beerus, Broly, Whis. They are all obstacles. So I can see why he's keeping his distance until he can tip the balance in his favour.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Kokonoe » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:02 am

Anyone else a fan of the original Paragus more? As a disclaimer, I'm not personally interested in debating with those who like the current Paragus more so if that's your view I'd like it if you don't respond to my post as I will not be responding to those who do in this regard.

Was just wanting to see if there are some others who share this view as I'm already aware most like the current incarnation.

In the original he starts off as a good person, narrowly escapes death and is fine until he cannot get a grip on Broly who is constantly attacking him and almost killing him which you see when he loses his eye.

Then out of desperation with his son and having no home world to return to he resorts to mind controlling his son. It's not a shock collar or anything like he's just trying to control him from freaking out. But then overtime he gets power hungry by having this control over his son and becomes twisted from all of these events destroying his morals.

He then loses power over his son due to Goku's spirit as a warrior which awakens Broly's saiyan instincts and plans to kill his son with a meteor in advance as well as get revenge on the remaining saiyans that gave him all these issues to begin with.

Paragus watches on enjoying them get destroyed but then realizes he too will die, tries to escape, but is killed by his own son the one he tried to save from the very beginning.

For me, I liked Paragus in the new movie but I really hated how fast he became evil there was no build up and it makes me think that it was rushed in this regard because Toriyama wrote a 3 hour script so I'm sure he fleshed this out more in the original script. You can also see that later on, Paragus gets killed by Frieza as a joke and they dont even talk about it at all later which is another sign his plot elements are rushed a bit.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by emperior » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:07 am

Kokonoe wrote:Anyone else a fan of the original Paragus more? As a disclaimer, I'm not personally interested in debating with those who like the current Paragus more so if that's your view I'd like it if you don't respond to my post as I will not be responding to those who do in this regard.

Was just wanting to see if there are some others who share this view as I'm already aware most like the current incarnation.

In the original he starts off as a good person, narrowly escapes death and is fine until he cannot get a grip on Broly who is constantly attacking him and almost killing him which you see when he loses his eye.

Then out of desperation with his son and having no home world to return to he resorts to mind controlling his son. It's not a shock collar or anything like he's just trying to control him from freaking out. But then overtime he gets power hungry by having this control over his son and becomes twisted from all of these events destroying his morals.

He then loses power over his son due to Goku's spirit as a warrior which awakens Broly's saiyan instincts and plans to kill his son with a meteor in advance as well as get revenge on the remaining saiyans that gave him all these issues to begin with.

Paragus watches on enjoying them get destroyed but then realizes he too will die, tries to escape, but is killed by his own son the one he tried to save from the very beginning.

For me, I liked Paragus in the new movie but I really hated how fast he became evil there was no build up and it makes me think that it was rushed in this regard because Toriyama wrote a 3 hour script so I'm sure he fleshed this out more in the original script. You can also see that later on, Paragus gets killed by Frieza as a joke and they dont even talk about it at all later which is another sign his plot elements are rushed a bit.
Nothing pointed out to Paragus being a good person in Movie 8.
This movie has him start off already as a bad guy because he’s a Saiyan and, as he said, there aren’t trustworthy Saiyans.

Also, your problems with Paragus’ character not being fleshed out in the movie doesn’t mean the original script necessarily expanded upon his character. We don’t even know if they cut that much stuff out of the original script: the 3 hours were more or less what resulted from Nagamine’s original storyboard. Maybe he exaggerated with the fights and went overboard, as later they said they asked for more runtime because they were adamant about bringing as much as possible of Toriyama’s script.
If I had to guess, they probably had to do some cuts at the beginning of the movie, as the scenes have a weird transition there, as if there’s really no flow, and I guess they probably also cut the part from Minus where Bardock was killing the aliens with his mate and also his rebellion against Freeza.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:50 am

I'm not even sure how one can say that there was no build up or that he became evil fast (how is he evil to begin with?). The reason behind his desire for revenge is shown and explained in the movie. He was betrayed by King Vegeta. Why Vegeta betrayed him is also explained. What more build up is necessary?

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by DHM211 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:32 am

dbgtFO wrote:
DHM211 wrote:Minor pet peeve with Frieza's design in this film, while I understand they wanted to give him his manga coloring for his first form, they gave him his anime coloring for his second and third. They should have just stuck with one color palette for him.
Good catch, is this also the case when Kikono brings uo his other forms?
Furthermore since they went out of the way to change Freeza's colour to match Toriyama's original, I don't see why they didn't take this as an opportunity to change Trunks' hair colour too. It was the perfect time to do it, but I guess he isn't important enough...
Yes it is:
Image

On an unrelated note, I never realized how much taller Frieza's second form is than his third.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by mute_proxy » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:39 am

dbgtFO wrote: Good catch, is this also the case when Kikono brings uo his other forms?
Furthermore since they went out of the way to change Freeza's colour to match Toriyama's original, I don't see why they didn't take this as an opportunity to change Trunks' hair colour too. It was the perfect time to do it, but I guess he isn't important enough....
What's wrong with Trunks' hair though? It's supposed to be purple in the manga too

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:45 am

mute_proxy wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Good catch, is this also the case when Kikono brings uo his other forms?
Furthermore since they went out of the way to change Freeza's colour to match Toriyama's original, I don't see why they didn't take this as an opportunity to change Trunks' hair colour too. It was the perfect time to do it, but I guess he isn't important enough....
What's wrong with Trunks' hair though? It's supposed to be purple in the manga too
It's because Toriyama made it blue now. The present Trunks's hair was supposed to be blue back in BoG, actually, but they decided to keep it the usual purple.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by mute_proxy » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:49 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Good catch, is this also the case when Kikono brings uo his other forms?
Furthermore since they went out of the way to change Freeza's colour to match Toriyama's original, I don't see why they didn't take this as an opportunity to change Trunks' hair colour too. It was the perfect time to do it, but I guess he isn't important enough....
What's wrong with Trunks' hair though? It's supposed to be purple in the manga too
It's because Toriyama made it blue now. The present Trunks's hair was supposed to be blue back in BoG, actually, but they decided to keep it the usual purple.
He made it blue for the movie reference sheets because it's common that Bulma's hair is blue in the anime, and he knows that Trunks is meant to have the same hair as his mother. That doesn't really make blue haired Trunks the "correct" version. For "authenticity's" sake they should've changed Bulma to purple lol

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:00 am

Yet another thematic problem with the movie that just came to me: the movie tries its hardest to make you feel bad for Broly by claiming he's just an innocent boy, who's different from all the other brutal, warmongering Saiyans. Yet the movie also tries to have its cake and eat it too by trying to make all the other Saiyans sympathetic with the destruction of planet Vegeta. You can't have it both ways. If the intent is to make Broly seem sympathetic by contrasting him with the other Saiyans, then whitewashing Saiyan society in the same movie is completely counter-productive.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:48 am

Doctor. wrote:Yet another thematic problem with the movie that just came to me: the movie tries its hardest to make you feel bad for Broly by claiming he's just an innocent boy, who's different from all the other brutal, warmongering Saiyans. Yet the movie also tries to have its cake and eat it too by trying to make all the other Saiyans sympathetic with the destruction of planet Vegeta. You can't have it both ways. If the intent is to make Broly seem sympathetic by contrasting him with the other Saiyans, then whitewashing Saiyan society in the same movie is completely counter-productive.
I don’t think that was the intent. They were making Broly seem sympathetic through his experience with his father. He’s a victim of abuse. He hates fighting because of his upbringing. He couldn’t even befriend an animal because his father wanted him to focus on fighting.

Planet Vegeta’s destruction only served to vindicate Bardock’s suspicions. It shows that he made the right choice by sending Goku to Earth. I only felt sympathy for Bardock during that scene since he was trying so hard to stop Freeza’s blast, but ultimately ended up getting killed by it. Everyone else only got a shot of them looking to the sky like “oh shit, that’s a bright sun”.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Michsi » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:56 am

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Yet another thematic problem with the movie that just came to me: the movie tries its hardest to make you feel bad for Broly by claiming he's just an innocent boy, who's different from all the other brutal, warmongering Saiyans. Yet the movie also tries to have its cake and eat it too by trying to make all the other Saiyans sympathetic with the destruction of planet Vegeta. You can't have it both ways. If the intent is to make Broly seem sympathetic by contrasting him with the other Saiyans, then whitewashing Saiyan society in the same movie is completely counter-productive.
I don’t think that was the intent. They were making Broly seem sympathetic through his experience with his father. He’s a victim of abuse. He hates fighting because of his upbringing. He couldn’t even befriend an animal because his father wanted him to focus on fighting.

Planet Vegeta’s destruction only served to vindicate Bardock’s suspicions. It shows that he made the right choice by sending Goku to Earth. I only felt sympathy for Bardock during that scene since he was trying so hard to stop Freeza’s blast, but ultimately ended up getting killed by it. Everyone else only got a shot of them looking to the sky like “oh shit, that’s a bright sun”.
Also characters like Paragus and King Vegeta seem to reinforce the harsh image of Saiyan society.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:03 am

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:I don’t think that was the intent. They were making Broly seem sympathetic through his experience with his father. He’s a victim of abuse. He hates fighting because of his upbringing. He couldn’t even befriend an animal because his father wanted him to focus on fighting.

Planet Vegeta’s destruction only served to vindicate Bardock’s suspicions. It shows that he made the right choice by sending Goku to Earth. I only felt sympathy for Bardock during that scene since he was trying so hard to stop Freeza’s blast, but ultimately ended up getting killed by it. Everyone else only got a shot of them looking to the sky like “oh shit, that’s a bright sun”.
It wasn't simply through Paragus. They make it a point to contrast Broly with the other Saiyans by saying he doesn't fight because he wants to. Obviously the other Saiyans are barbaric savages who kill for sport, and Broly is a loving and innocent child. The more direct contrast is between Broly and Paragus, but Paragus himself is analogous to the rest of Saiyan society.

Planet Vegeta's destruction was very clearly meant to be an emotional moment; the music is very much striving to make it so, as well as the juxtaposition of Goku being sent off by his loving parents with their subsequent demise.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:34 am

Paragus makes it distinctly clear that he divorced himself from Saiyan society and only cares about revenge now. He's hardly analogous to the Saiyans at all.

The point about Broly not fighting because he wants to simply means that he was fighting against his will -- nothing more, nothing less. Nothing in the film suggests that he inherently wouldn't or couldn't enjoy fighting for the fun of it, and in fact, his friendship with Bah and his bond with Goku at the end specifically imply otherwise.

The Saiyans are sympathetic, and Broly is sympathetic for different (but certainly not contradictory) reasons. The themes there are entirely coherent.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:42 am

mute_proxy wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:
What's wrong with Trunks' hair though? It's supposed to be purple in the manga too
It's because Toriyama made it blue now. The present Trunks's hair was supposed to be blue back in BoG, actually, but they decided to keep it the usual purple.
He made it blue for the movie reference sheets because it's common that Bulma's hair is blue in the anime, and he knows that Trunks is meant to have the same hair as his mother. That doesn't really make blue haired Trunks the "correct" version. For "authenticity's" sake they should've changed Bulma to purple lol
That would be the dream, but I would also be content with Trunks having blue hair. As long as they have the same hair colour.
Just an annoyance.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by PFM18 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:15 pm

Doctor. wrote:Yet another thematic problem with the movie that just came to me: the movie tries its hardest to make you feel bad for Broly by claiming he's just an innocent boy, who's different from all the other brutal, warmongering Saiyans. Yet the movie also tries to have its cake and eat it too by trying to make all the other Saiyans sympathetic with the destruction of planet Vegeta. You can't have it both ways. If the intent is to make Broly seem sympathetic by contrasting him with the other Saiyans, then whitewashing Saiyan society in the same movie is completely counter-productive.
How is it whitewashing that they are care that their planet was destroyed? They can't be warmongers if they care about their entire race being eradicated? And even so, Vegeta, and Raditz don't give a shit about their planet being destroyed. If Hitler was sad that his country he ruled had been disintegrated, does that make him a good guy/whitewashed? Seems like complaining for the sake of it, again.
Marlowe89 wrote:Paragus makes it distinctly clear that he divorced himself from Saiyan society and only cares about revenge now. He's hardly analogous to the Saiyans at all.

The point about Broly not fighting because he wants to simply means that he was fighting against his will -- nothing more, nothing less. Nothing in the film suggests that he inherently wouldn't or couldn't enjoy fighting for the fun of it, and in fact, his friendship with Bah and his bond with Goku at the end specifically imply otherwise.

The Saiyans are sympathetic, and Broly is sympathetic for different (but certainly not contradictory) reasons. The themes there are entirely coherent.
Thank you. Extremely well articulated. Fucking christ, it shouldn't have to be explained in the first place, though.

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