Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:51 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:30 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:27 am
King Vegeta is the entire reason why the plot of the film even happens, so more focus on him makes sense narratively, especially with how this relates to Paragus since that's who he has his grudge with.

"Vegeta doesn't give a shit about his parents", which is completely irrelevant to how much of a role his parents should have in the film's story.

Goku has his parents' genetics, and Dragonball (and nearly all Shonen in fact) has always been Nature over Nurture (only Western fans tend to deny or downplay this). Characterizarion wise, Goku has almost nothing in common with Grampa Gohan, yet a lot with both versions of Bardock and Gine. So yes, this retroactively DOES make his biological parents far more important to Goku's character (narratively) than Grampa Gohan ever was (no wonder Toriyama has basically forgetton about him since the King Piccolo arc).

So no, it IS rational to argue that Bardock & Gine and especially King Vegeta should have gotten more sceentime and development in the DBS Broly film (which was marketed as being about Goku, Vegeta, Broly's backgrounds and "destinies").
This post makes perfect sense, if you completely forget Goku's love of martial arts comes from Gohan, not just fighting, but the purest basics of martial arts and the idea of improving oneself is from him. And before you credit this to Roshi, Roshi doesn't teach Goku any techniques, all he does is push Goku's already absurd abilities to the next level. It was Gohan who actually taught Goku how to kung fu. Of course, Gohan isn't the star of a very popular TV special that nobody can leave the ever-loving fuck alone and doesn't have mega marketing power so of course he'll get sidelined for Bardock.
This sounds like headcanon, where was it ever stated that Goku got his ideal of self-improvement from Grampa Gohan? Either way, Goku wouldnt have any interest in martial arts at all if he didnt have any natural urge for combat (which stems from his Saiyan genetics)

And none of this has anything to do with personality, so your counter-argument was irrelevant from the start.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:59 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:51 pm
This sounds like headcanon, where was it ever stated that Goku got his ideal of self-improvement from Grampa Gohan? Either way, Goku wouldnt have any interest in martial arts at all if he didnt have any natural urge for combat (which stems from his Saiyan genetics)

And none of this has anything to do with personality, so your counter-argument was irrelevant from the start.
Gohan's the guy who teaches him martial arts, how to punch, kick, jump,... the works. The very foundations of Goku's character are rooted in this. Everyone says its Roshi but if you actually read the parts where Goku trains under him, Roshi does nothing but boost Goku's stats. His mindset is from Gohan. Goku without Gohan is just a generic Saiyan murder maniac without any appreciation or care for self-improvement or constantly testing himself. If that doesn't make him THE best importan person in defining Goku's entire personality, I don't know what to tell you.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:21 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:29 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:50 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:46 am


Toriyama wrote the whole screenplay, which includes how the fights play out. So that was his fault for making Base Goku look stronger than SSG Vegeta smh.

All Toei did was the choreography for the fights, thats what he meant by them "going wild".
Highly doubtful, since TOEI's director consistently stated they did the fight scenes themselves. TOEI is infamous for having ridiculous showings like that throughout DB. Base Goku and Vegeta smacking around SSJ3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan inside of Buu for example. Toriyama doesn't have that nonsensical narrative.
They did the fight choreography, not the fight outcomes (that's in the script).

And stop trying to deflect criticism of Toriyama by blaming all of his writing choices on Toei smh.

And absolutely nothing in the DBS anime and manga contradicts Base Goku and Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks since BoG. Its been consistently laid down to be this way.
You are not paying attention. I stated TOEI has things like Base Vegeta and Goku fighting Mystic Gohan/Gotenks in the Buu saga. Toriyama hasn't doen that in his writings. Toriyama having Goku fighting powerful opponents in base for no reason at all is not his writing style. That is a TOEI thing and the fight outcomes have nothing to do with how the battles are written while fighting. Factually, TOEI repeatedly said everything was taken from Toriyama's script except the battles. I don't blame people unjustly and I give credit where it's due.
Last edited by Miracles on Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:22 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:59 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:51 pm
This sounds like headcanon, where was it ever stated that Goku got his ideal of self-improvement from Grampa Gohan? Either way, Goku wouldnt have any interest in martial arts at all if he didnt have any natural urge for combat (which stems from his Saiyan genetics)

And none of this has anything to do with personality, so your counter-argument was irrelevant from the start.
Gohan's the guy who teaches him martial arts, how to punch, kick, jump,... the works. The very foundations of Goku's character are rooted in this. Everyone says its Roshi but if you actually read the parts where Goku trains under him, Roshi does nothing but boost Goku's stats. His mindset is from Gohan. Goku without Gohan is just a generic Saiyan murder maniac without any appreciation or care for self-improvement or constantly testing himself. If that doesn't make him THE best importan person in defining Goku's entire personality, I don't know what to tell you.
Being interested in martial arts =/= being interested in self-improvement for its own sake. Most of the martial artist in the franchise dont have the same self-improvement ethos as Goku (hell, Grampa Gohan himself was never stated to have this mentality in the first place).

Also, being into martial arts and self-improvement isnt really a personality, since a variety of different personality/character types could have those traits too.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:31 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:21 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:29 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:50 pm

Highly doubtful, since TOEI's director consistently stated they did the fight scenes themselves. TOEI is infamous for having ridiculous showings like that throughout DB. Base Goku and Vegeta smacking around SSJ3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan inside of Buu for example. Toriyama doesn't have that nonsensical narrative.
They did the fight choreography, not the fight outcomes (that's in the script).

And stop trying to deflect criticism of Toriyama by blaming all of his writing choices on Toei smh.

And absolutely nothing in the DBS anime and manga contradicts Base Goku and Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks since BoG. Its been consistently laid down to be this way.
You are not paying attention. I stated TOEI has things like Base Vegeta and Goku fighting Mystic Gohan/Gotenks in the Buu saga. Toriyama having Goku fighting opponents in base for no reason at all is not his writing style. That is a TOEI thing and the fight outcomes have nothing to do with how the battles are written while fighting. TOEI repeatedly said the everything was taken from Toriyama's script except the battles. I don't blame people unjustly and I give credit where it's due.
When the hell has Base Goku/Vegeta ever fought Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks in the Buu Saga? And if you are referring to the ones inside Buu's head, keep in mind that those were fake thought forms.

"TOEI repeatedly said the everything was taken from Toriyama's script except the battles."

Source? And again, they were talking about the choreography, not who beats who with what.

Toriyama had Goku fight Enraged Broly after SSG Vegeta in the movie (its his script). Who fights who and what transformations get used are all apart of Toriyama's script. To deny this is delusional.

If Toei were the ones to determine how the fights play out, then there's no reason why SSBKKx20 & SSBE weren't in the film then.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:39 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:31 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:21 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:29 pm


They did the fight choreography, not the fight outcomes (that's in the script).

And stop trying to deflect criticism of Toriyama by blaming all of his writing choices on Toei smh.

And absolutely nothing in the DBS anime and manga contradicts Base Goku and Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks since BoG. Its been consistently laid down to be this way.
You are not paying attention. I stated TOEI has things like Base Vegeta and Goku fighting Mystic Gohan/Gotenks in the Buu saga. Toriyama having Goku fighting opponents in base for no reason at all is not his writing style. That is a TOEI thing and the fight outcomes have nothing to do with how the battles are written while fighting. TOEI repeatedly said the everything was taken from Toriyama's script except the battles. I don't blame people unjustly and I give credit where it's due.
When the hell has Base Goku/Vegeta ever fought Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks in the Buu Saga? And if you are referring to the ones inside Buu's head, keep in mind that those were fake thought forms.

"TOEI repeatedly said the everything was taken from Toriyama's script except the battles."

Source? And again, they were talking about the choreography, not who beats who with what.

Toriyama had Goku fight Enraged Broly after SSG Vegeta in the movie (its his script). Who fights who and what transformations get used are all apart of Toriyama's script. To deny this is delusional.

If Toei were the ones to determine how the fights play out, then there's no reason why SSBKKx20 & SSBE weren't in the film then.
How have you gone about turning Toriyama’s screenplay into a movie?
With the exception of action scenes, we’re adapting his screenplay pretty much as-is.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

It seems Toriyama-sensei‘s script came first.
That’s right. This story was definitely made by Toriyama-sensei!! So we tried as much as possible to keep all the dialogue the same and do our best from there. We’re standing on Toriyama’s shoulders. But we used our whole bag of tricks when it came to the battles.

With the final battle and such, the animators got a little carried away; they ignored my storyboards and just drew whatever they felt like (laughs).

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/
Last edited by Miracles on Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:47 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:22 pm
ekrolo2 wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:59 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:51 pm
This sounds like headcanon, where was it ever stated that Goku got his ideal of self-improvement from Grampa Gohan? Either way, Goku wouldnt have any interest in martial arts at all if he didnt have any natural urge for combat (which stems from his Saiyan genetics)

And none of this has anything to do with personality, so your counter-argument was irrelevant from the start.
Gohan's the guy who teaches him martial arts, how to punch, kick, jump,... the works. The very foundations of Goku's character are rooted in this. Everyone says its Roshi but if you actually read the parts where Goku trains under him, Roshi does nothing but boost Goku's stats. His mindset is from Gohan. Goku without Gohan is just a generic Saiyan murder maniac without any appreciation or care for self-improvement or constantly testing himself. If that doesn't make him THE best importan person in defining Goku's entire personality, I don't know what to tell you.
Being interested in martial arts =/= being interested in self-improvement for its own sake. Most of the martial artist in the franchise dont have the same self-improvement ethos as Goku (hell, Grampa Gohan himself was never stated to have this mentality in the first place).

Also, being into martial arts and self-improvement isnt really a personality, since a variety of different personality/character types could have those traits too.
That's cause Goku's better at martial arts than most in the series lol. The vast, vast majority of them give up (like Kurilin, Yamcha,...) or suck at training (Tenshinhan, Piccolo,...). Also, Grampa Gohan flat out calls Goku's laziness out with training when he still gets dazed by a tail grab. Like Roshi, there's the theme of Goku and his gen taking over for the old farts who had their fun in the heyday but now its time for the (then) next-gen to have theirs. As for martial arts devotion not being a personality well that's what Goku is: he's a man who's devoted his entire life to improving himself and seeking stronger challenges for it.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:59 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:39 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:31 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:21 pm

You are not paying attention. I stated TOEI has things like Base Vegeta and Goku fighting Mystic Gohan/Gotenks in the Buu saga. Toriyama having Goku fighting opponents in base for no reason at all is not his writing style. That is a TOEI thing and the fight outcomes have nothing to do with how the battles are written while fighting. TOEI repeatedly said the everything was taken from Toriyama's script except the battles. I don't blame people unjustly and I give credit where it's due.
When the hell has Base Goku/Vegeta ever fought Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks in the Buu Saga? And if you are referring to the ones inside Buu's head, keep in mind that those were fake thought forms.

"TOEI repeatedly said the everything was taken from Toriyama's script except the battles."

Source? And again, they were talking about the choreography, not who beats who with what.

Toriyama had Goku fight Enraged Broly after SSG Vegeta in the movie (its his script). Who fights who and what transformations get used are all apart of Toriyama's script. To deny this is delusional.

If Toei were the ones to determine how the fights play out, then there's no reason why SSBKKx20 & SSBE weren't in the film then.
How have you gone about turning Toriyama’s screenplay into a movie?
With the exception of action scenes, we’re adapting his screenplay pretty much as-is.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

It seems Toriyama-sensei‘s script came first.
That’s right. This story was definitely made by Toriyama-sensei!! So we tried as much as possible to keep all the dialogue the same and do our best from there. We’re standing on Toriyama’s shoulders. But we used our whole bag of tricks when it came to the battles.

With the final battle and such, the animators got a little carried away; they ignored my storyboards and just drew whatever they felt like (laughs).

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/
That interview actually proves me right lol.

"With the exception of action scenes", aka the fight cheography. Nothing there says they went against Toriyama's powerscaling.

"With the final battle and such", aka the Gogeta fight. Nothing there about Base Goku vs Broly.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:03 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:47 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:22 pm
ekrolo2 wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:59 pm

Gohan's the guy who teaches him martial arts, how to punch, kick, jump,... the works. The very foundations of Goku's character are rooted in this. Everyone says its Roshi but if you actually read the parts where Goku trains under him, Roshi does nothing but boost Goku's stats. His mindset is from Gohan. Goku without Gohan is just a generic Saiyan murder maniac without any appreciation or care for self-improvement or constantly testing himself. If that doesn't make him THE best importan person in defining Goku's entire personality, I don't know what to tell you.
Being interested in martial arts =/= being interested in self-improvement for its own sake. Most of the martial artist in the franchise dont have the same self-improvement ethos as Goku (hell, Grampa Gohan himself was never stated to have this mentality in the first place).

Also, being into martial arts and self-improvement isnt really a personality, since a variety of different personality/character types could have those traits too.
That's cause Goku's better at martial arts than most in the series lol. The vast, vast majority of them give up (like Kurilin, Yamcha,...) or suck at training (Tenshinhan, Piccolo,...). Also, Grampa Gohan flat out calls Goku's laziness out with training when he still gets dazed by a tail grab. Like Roshi, there's the theme of Goku and his gen taking over for the old farts who had their fun in the heyday but now its time for the (then) next-gen to have theirs. As for martial arts devotion not being a personality well that's what Goku is: he's a man who's devoted his entire life to improving himself and seeking stronger challenges for it.
But that bets the question, was Grampa Gohan also man who's devoted his entire life to improving himself and seeking stronger challenges for it? If the answer is no (which is likely the case), then you really can't say the he was the biggest influence on Goku's character.

And by personality, I mean things like temperament, behavioral traits, range of thought, etc.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:59 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:39 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:31 pm


When the hell has Base Goku/Vegeta ever fought Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks in the Buu Saga? And if you are referring to the ones inside Buu's head, keep in mind that those were fake thought forms.

"TOEI repeatedly said the everything was taken from Toriyama's script except the battles."

Source? And again, they were talking about the choreography, not who beats who with what.

Toriyama had Goku fight Enraged Broly after SSG Vegeta in the movie (its his script). Who fights who and what transformations get used are all apart of Toriyama's script. To deny this is delusional.

If Toei were the ones to determine how the fights play out, then there's no reason why SSBKKx20 & SSBE weren't in the film then.
How have you gone about turning Toriyama’s screenplay into a movie?
With the exception of action scenes, we’re adapting his screenplay pretty much as-is.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

It seems Toriyama-sensei‘s script came first.
That’s right. This story was definitely made by Toriyama-sensei!! So we tried as much as possible to keep all the dialogue the same and do our best from there. We’re standing on Toriyama’s shoulders. But we used our whole bag of tricks when it came to the battles.

With the final battle and such, the animators got a little carried away; they ignored my storyboards and just drew whatever they felt like (laughs).

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/
That interview actually proves me right lol.

"With the exception of action scenes", aka the fight cheography. Nothing there says they went against Toriyama's powerscaling.

"With the final battle and such", aka the Gogeta fight. Nothing there about Base Goku vs Broly.
It doesn't say choreography. The words used is a general term for battle scene. As I said before You can't blame Toriyama for events like that when he hasn't done it in the past but only TOEI has done. It doesn't matter what excuse you try to use for TOEI's ridiculous scaling with base Goku/vegeta smacking around Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga...It happened just like SSJ3 Goku speeding around with Gotenks Buu.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:30 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:59 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:39 pm

How have you gone about turning Toriyama’s screenplay into a movie?
With the exception of action scenes, we’re adapting his screenplay pretty much as-is.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

It seems Toriyama-sensei‘s script came first.
That’s right. This story was definitely made by Toriyama-sensei!! So we tried as much as possible to keep all the dialogue the same and do our best from there. We’re standing on Toriyama’s shoulders. But we used our whole bag of tricks when it came to the battles.

With the final battle and such, the animators got a little carried away; they ignored my storyboards and just drew whatever they felt like (laughs).

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/
That interview actually proves me right lol.

"With the exception of action scenes", aka the fight cheography. Nothing there says they went against Toriyama's powerscaling.

"With the final battle and such", aka the Gogeta fight. Nothing there about Base Goku vs Broly.
It doesn't say choreography. The words used is a general term for battle scene. As I said before You can't blame Toriyama for events like that when he hasn't done it in the past but only TOEI has done. It doesn't matter what excuse you try to use for TOEI's ridiculous scaling with base Goku/vegeta smacking around Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga...It happened just like SSJ3 Goku speeding around with Gotenks Buu.
You failed to prove me wrong, and Base Goku/Vegeta beating Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks never happened in the Buu Saga, stop making stuff up. And you also failed to prove that Base Goku/Vegeta in Super isn't stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

And SSJ3 Goku got owned by Buutenks. Nothing about that fight makes him look stronger than Ultimate Gohan at the time.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:37 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:30 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:59 pm


That interview actually proves me right lol.

"With the exception of action scenes", aka the fight cheography. Nothing there says they went against Toriyama's powerscaling.

"With the final battle and such", aka the Gogeta fight. Nothing there about Base Goku vs Broly.
It doesn't say choreography. The words used is a general term for battle scene. As I said before You can't blame Toriyama for events like that when he hasn't done it in the past but only TOEI has done. It doesn't matter what excuse you try to use for TOEI's ridiculous scaling with base Goku/vegeta smacking around Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga...It happened just like SSJ3 Goku speeding around with Gotenks Buu.
You failed to prove me wrong, and Base Goku/Vegeta beating Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks never happened in the Buu Saga, stop making stuff up. And you also failed to prove that Base Goku/Vegeta in Super isn't stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

And SSJ3 Goku got owned by Buutenks. Nothing about that fight makes him look stronger than Ultimate Gohan at the time.
You didn't have a factual claim from the start. You erroneously blamed Toriyama for base Goku looking stronger than Red Vegeta when you have no proof it was him. I gave factual examples that these showings are usually TOEI's doings from their work in the past. You were wrong from the gates with the false accusing of Toriyama. Especially when it was factually stated the fight scenes were left up to the anime staff.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:45 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:37 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:30 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm

It doesn't say choreography. The words used is a general term for battle scene. As I said before You can't blame Toriyama for events like that when he hasn't done it in the past but only TOEI has done. It doesn't matter what excuse you try to use for TOEI's ridiculous scaling with base Goku/vegeta smacking around Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga...It happened just like SSJ3 Goku speeding around with Gotenks Buu.
You failed to prove me wrong, and Base Goku/Vegeta beating Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks never happened in the Buu Saga, stop making stuff up. And you also failed to prove that Base Goku/Vegeta in Super isn't stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

And SSJ3 Goku got owned by Buutenks. Nothing about that fight makes him look stronger than Ultimate Gohan at the time.
You didn't have a factual claim from the start. You erroneously blamed Toriyama for base Goku looking stronger than Red Vegeta when you have no proof it was him. I gave factual examples that these showings are usually TOEI's doings from their work in the past. You were wrong from the gates with the false accusing of Toriyama. Especially when it was factually stated the fight scenes were left up to the anime staff.
Show me where Base Goku/Vegeta even fought Mystic Gohan and Gotenks in Z, let alone beat them. Show where it was stated that Toei made Base Goku look like that, even though its in Toriyama's script.

"Especially when it was factually stated the fight scenes were left up to the anime staff."

The fight scenes, not the powerscaling (which was written into the story from the start).

The way you go the extra mile to avoid holding Toriyama accountable for anything bad is unhealthy.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:03 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:45 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:37 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:30 pm


You failed to prove me wrong, and Base Goku/Vegeta beating Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks never happened in the Buu Saga, stop making stuff up. And you also failed to prove that Base Goku/Vegeta in Super isn't stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

And SSJ3 Goku got owned by Buutenks. Nothing about that fight makes him look stronger than Ultimate Gohan at the time.
You didn't have a factual claim from the start. You erroneously blamed Toriyama for base Goku looking stronger than Red Vegeta when you have no proof it was him. I gave factual examples that these showings are usually TOEI's doings from their work in the past. You were wrong from the gates with the false accusing of Toriyama. Especially when it was factually stated the fight scenes were left up to the anime staff.
Show me where Base Goku/Vegeta even fought Mystic Gohan and Gotenks in Z, let alone beat them. Show where it was stated that Toei made Base Goku look like that, even though its in Toriyama's script.

"Especially when it was factually stated the fight scenes were left up to the anime staff."

The fight scenes, not the powerscaling (which was written into the story from the start).

The way you go the extra mile to avoid holding Toriyama accountable for anything bad is unhealthy.
I'm not excusing Toriyama, I told you from the get go that it was "HIGHLY DOUBTFUL" that Toriyama would be responsible for the base Goku fighting Ikari Broly. Due to the fact the fight scenes were left up to TOEI only. You trying to excuse that as "choreography only" on their part is headcanon. We simply don't know if base Goku fighting Ikari Broly was written out to happen that way in Toriyam's script.

Secondly, I told you TOEI has a history of inputting ridiculous scenes where weaker characters have no business fighting the stronger characters. This was the case with base Goku vs Ikari Broly after that Broly was punking Red Vegeta. We see this where Base Vegeta even kicks Gotenks and Goku fighting Ultimate Gohan in TOEI's filler scenes. Which has no business happening.

All these assessments are based on facts, what you have is just simple conjecture.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Dbzk1999 » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:34 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:40 pm
Dbzk1999 wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:11 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:35 am

DBZ Broly actually had a good reason for being so naturally strong: he's the one true legendary SSJ that's only appears thousand years or so (hell, him being the LSSJ was the entire plot of that film). Whereas DBS Broly is just a randomly strong GoD-tier Saiyan for no reason (since the film doesnt adapt the LSSJ plotline).
Literally, the only difference between the two is Z Broly being referred to as the legendary super saiyan more often. They both have the exact same actual reasons for their power, their potential being through the roof. One of those scientists or whatever in Super Broly even mentions how the baby might be the legendary super saiyan or something to that effect
Broly possibly being the LSSJ has nothing to do with Super movie, its just a cheap shout out that's never mentioned again. So there's nothing to really suggest DBS Broly is just another randomly strong Post-Buu saga tier Saiyan like the ones in U6.

Whereas with DBZ Broly, the 1st film went out of its way to build up the LSSJ lore to explain that Broly's power. He wasnt just a randomly strong "prodigy".
I ask, what are you defining as “go out of its way”. Cause the most it has is Paragus and Vegeta mentioning it.

Seriously, at the end of the day, both of them are essentially abnormalities amongst their race, mutants. Only difference is that one keeps to how the original series chose to ultimately portray the legend of the super saiyan (as one that all saiyans could potentially get). Well, that and Super Broly’s Wrath Stare
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Noah » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:54 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:35 am
Noah wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:47 pm
Funny to note that if wasn't Toriyama name in it, how many people would find ludicrous to have another Saiyan character with the same bullsh*t "prodigy" excuses that came from RoF movie that surpasses both Goku and Vegeta who busted their asses training for decades to be at the God Realm :lol:
This is a major problem with Modern DB in general, and it all began with RoF & Golden Freeza (wtf was Toriyama thinking writing Freeza's power and potential like that?) Not only did it permanently ruin the concept of God Ki, it also devalued Whis' training.
It's also interesting that over the years (or even much earlier) we see things that could have solved that. DB always had arcs that connected to another in someway... Why have not some shadowy figure to be the cause of Freeza revival and absurd power boost? I'm talking about Champa and Vados (which would not devaluate Whis training) and that could only be revelead on the U6 x U7 Tournament arc, but yea truly they didn't thought this through while doing RoF (movie) it could be corrected on Super, but they also didn't care much.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:42 pm

April 2020 and in quarantine
Still waiting for the extended version of this. If there isn't anything this year, I guess this is it.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:51 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:42 pm
April 2020 and in quarantine
Still waiting for the extended version of this. If there isn't anything this year, I guess this is it.
It's not happening. There's nobody around to work on it, lest Shintani's spent the past fourteen months soloing the unfinished cuts (which is unlikely).
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:21 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:51 pm
It's not happening. There's nobody around to work on it, lest Shintani's spent the past fourteen months soloing the unfinished cuts (which is unlikely).
If we got an extended version, the new scenes length wouldn't be longer than an anime episode, which means the staff working on it would be attached to it just for a "short" time and then they would still go back to work on whatever they are working now.

It's more a matter if they want to do it, because animators working on different animes at the same time isn't something new.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:45 am

FortuneSSJ wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:42 pm
Still waiting for the extended version of this. If there isn't anything this year, I guess this is it.
You have to remember that the "extended" BOG cut was actually the original cut. What happened was it got trimmed down during the last minute because someone at the studio thought kids wouldn't sit through a movie that long. That's not to say Broly or even RF weren't longer, but I don't think whatever was left out got animated and edited into a final cut like BOG.

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