Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat May 16, 2020 9:09 am

Toriyama needs to stop giving his stamps out. Like with Toyotaro and Vegetto he should have told Shintani no to FP Broly instead of "okay but don't make him too muscley" it is quite clear now Toriyama's SS Broly with no pupils was his version of an homage and homages are perfect when done like that and not in your face like that stupid FP form. That is what I mean when I say I don't fully trust Toei.

Pretty much my only gripe with the movie.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Luso Saiyan » Sat May 16, 2020 1:24 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 9:09 amLike with Toyotaro and Vegetto he should have told Shintani no to FP Broly instead of "okay but don't make him too muscley"
I completely agree.

Toriyama goes one direction and they still try to push for the opposite one, just because it's the fan favorite...

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by JulieYBM » Sat May 16, 2020 1:29 pm

Toriyama isn't the animation character designer, director, animation supervisor or even a main key animator for the film. It's not his film, he contributed a script, but scripts don't lead projects, directors and animators do. I am mixed as to whether or not the use of Full-Power Super Saiyan worked structurally within the film but I also do not believe that we should be telling Nagamine and Shintani not include their own selves in the work that they are creating. If Toriyama cared all that much--which I sincerely because he does not--he'd still be drawing storylines as comics ala Doraemon.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Sat May 16, 2020 5:01 pm

TOEI has stated repeatedly they been faithful to Toriyama's script. Any additions they got permission. Meaning it was Toriyama's product and they were able to add to it because he said it's OK. If he said no they wouldn't have added to his script. Same with Toyotaro.

For the sake of story and logic Toriyama should of told both TOEI/Toyotaro no on Vegetto. It added nothing to the narrative but contradiction and fanservice.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat May 16, 2020 5:39 pm

To me it seems all Toei did was shoehorn the form within the script instead of adjusting the script to accommodate the form and to justify it. Maybe that's what Toriyama assumed they would do.

At the end of the day it's all about execution, changes are fine if they are done right or even potentially benefit the narrative, whereas was FP Broly did neither, Broly still got the shit constantly beat out of him and his magic FP form didn't help one bit... the fact the form was only included because nostalgia sums it up you can tell it wasn't thought through.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by JulieYBM » Sat May 16, 2020 6:01 pm

I don't think the inclusion of the Full-Power form was any different from, say, including Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God. I legitimately don't see Toriyama writing anything other than "Broli forces Vegeta to use Super Saiyan and after they fight some more Gokuu steps in and fights as a Super Saiyan but gets pushed to the brink and transforms into Blue" The full fights as depicted in the film feel much more like Takahashi, Karasawa, Higashide, Oonishi and Nikaido wanted to animate those forms than a Toriyama-style fight. Similarly, I doubt base form and Super Saiyan Gogeta actually fought Broli in Toriyama's script.

Broli's continuous growth of power leading to new forms only works when we consider that the three characters (and Gogeta) are constantly powering up in a back-and-forth with Broli's powering up coming from rapid growth rather than holding back.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Matches Malone » Sat May 16, 2020 6:28 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 5:01 pmIf he said no they wouldn't have added to his script. Same with Toyotaro.
Exactly. When BOG was being made, they pushed for a muscular SsjG, but he fought against it until he got the design he wanted. It seems like Toriyama has gone from telling the story he wanted to tell (BOG) to now just telling stories fans want to be told (Broly)
Luso Saiyan wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 1:24 pmToriyama goes one direction and they still try to push for the opposite one, just because it's the fan favorite...
They're not forcing anything on him, he himself has said multiple times that he wants to do what the fans want, which is what they're telling him.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 9:09 amToriyama needs to stop giving his stamps out. Like with Toyotaro and Vegetto he should have told Shintani no to FP Broly instead of "okay but don't make him too muscley".
Or at the very least tell them to introduce him in a future story. Ssj Broly was already powerful enough, there was no need to also include his Lssj form on top of that. It's like with SsjB, it was introduced before SsjG got any chance of truly being explored. The franchise is here to stay, so why the big rush ?
sangofe wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 12:30 amDude, Toriyama has ALWAYS taken suggestions from his editors.
The difference is that these suggestions aren't really what his editors themselves want, they're telling him what fans want, a group he never catered to in the past.
Mad Swami wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 11:14 pmI think the Broly movie is more amazing for what sets up in the sense I doubt this will be the last Dragonball movie to use the gorgeous animation.
It also sets up a future where nostalgia is front and center, due to its massive success.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by JulieYBM » Sat May 16, 2020 6:35 pm

Yamamuro wanted to make Super Saiyan God have large muscles and a cloak. Toriyama wanted Super Saiyan God to be small and not seem much of a threat. While I like Toriyama's design better that doesn't make Yamamuro's idea invalid. Yamamuro was the one in charge of the character designs, after all, and if he has been selected for this role he should have some say in the process.

*I still think Yamamuro utterly and completely sucks at his job and don't want him involved with Dragon Ball anymore, I'm just being consistent on principle.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Matches Malone » Sat May 16, 2020 6:47 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 6:35 pmWhile I like Toriyama's design better that doesn't make Yamamuro's idea invalid.
I don't think it was invalid, just not the right time. After 2 crazy strong looking forms in Ssj3 and Ssj4, I think Toriyama made the right choice to take things back to basics. It lines up with his other methods of designs, as Freeza, Cell, and Buu all had strong looking forms at first, but their strongest looked the most simple. Toriyama wrote BOG as a standalone story, so it makes sense based on his history to have (at the time) the last Ssj form be the most basic.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Sat May 16, 2020 8:34 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 6:28 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 5:01 pmIf he said no they wouldn't have added to his script. Same with Toyotaro.
Exactly. When BOG was being made, they pushed for a muscular SsjG, but he fought against it until he got the design he wanted. It seems like Toriyama has gone from telling the story he wanted to tell (BOG) to now just telling stories fans want to be told (Broly)
TOEI also had Beerus as a lizard like creature with a dark past, with heavy philosophy, lol. Toriyama changed all that. Stating it wasn't Dragonball.

So if Toriyama gives them the Go ahead, they do it. If he doesn't, they don't.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Matches Malone » Sat May 16, 2020 8:50 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:34 pm TOEI also had Beerus as a lizard like creature with a dark past, with heavy philosophy, lol. Toriyama changed all that. Stating it wasn't Dragonball.

So if Toriyama gives them the Go ahead, they do it. If he doesn't, they don't.
Toriyama seemed very hands on with BOG compared to his current role, which is basically "give me an idea or tell me what fans want and I'll do it".

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Sat May 16, 2020 9:23 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:50 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:34 pm TOEI also had Beerus as a lizard like creature with a dark past, with heavy philosophy, lol. Toriyama changed all that. Stating it wasn't Dragonball.

So if Toriyama gives them the Go ahead, they do it. If he doesn't, they don't.
Toriyama seemed very hands on with BOG compared to his current role, which is basically "give me an idea or tell me what fans want and I'll do it".
They came to Toriyama with Broly the same way they did with BoG. They had an idea Toriyama approved he wrote the story around it. Toriyama wrote the entire script for all three movies. The approved design change to Broly is minimal input.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Matches Malone » Sat May 16, 2020 9:42 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 9:23 pmThey came to Toriyama with Broly the same way they did with BoG.
"This was the first time that I participated in creating the story for a theatrical Dragon Ball anime. But that isn’t to say that I was requested to participate; and in the midst of making partial changes, I got carried away, and ended up making it into an almost completely different story".

This is very different from his role in Broly, as he mostly just gave them what they wanted. The original concepts of BOG are nothing like the version we got from him. Unlike Broly, he wasn't even asked to write it, but did anyway.

I think the main difference between BOG and the following movies/super, is that BOG was a passion project for Toriyama. He said multiple times that not only did the people behind DB evolution disrespect him, they gave a false image of what DB is, and that he wanted to make it right with BOG. You can tell from the writing that he gave it his all, from great new characters to amazing character development, he poured everything into it. That's not to say his he didn't work hard on what came next, but you can clearly see corporate finger prints all over them. BOG is written in such a way that makes it feel like a missing chapter he lost 18 years ago, something that belongs in the original manga. I enjoyed what came next, for the most part, but they don't have that feeling at all.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Sat May 16, 2020 10:05 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 9:42 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 9:23 pmThey came to Toriyama with Broly the same way they did with BoG.
"This was the first time that I participated in creating the story for a theatrical Dragon Ball anime. But that isn’t to say that I was requested to participate; and in the midst of making partial changes, I got carried away, and ended up making it into an almost completely different story".

This is very different from his role in Broly, as he mostly just gave them what they wanted. The original concepts of BOG are nothing like the version we got from him. Unlike Broly, he wasn't even asked to write it, but did anyway.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -toriyama/

They come to Toriyama and he makes it happen. Whether they requested him or not is not the point.
Last edited by Miracles on Sat May 16, 2020 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Matches Malone » Sat May 16, 2020 10:10 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:05 pmThey come to Toriyama and he makes it happen. Whether they requested him or not is not the point.
It is the point, because it's very different. With Broly, they asked him to write a story from the ground up. With BOG, they asked for his opinion on a story they already wrote themselves, that he threw out in favor of making his own, despite not being asked to. Another major difference is the reason he wrote them. He wrote Broly because it's something the fans wanted, but with BOG, he wrote that because it's something he wanted to see. He wanted to prove to Fox that not only was he capable of writing DB, but also making it more successful than evolution. He also wanted to remind the world that DB was nothing like Evolution.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Sat May 16, 2020 10:15 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:10 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:05 pmThey come to Toriyama and he makes it happen. Whether they requested him or not is not the point.
It is the point, because it's very different. With Broly, they asked him to write a story from the ground up. With BOG, they asked for his opinion on a story they already wrote themselves, that he threw out in favor of making his own, despite not being asked to. Another major difference is the reason he wrote them. He wrote Broly because it's something the fans wanted, but with BOG, he wrote that because it's something he wanted to see. He wanted to prove to Fox that not only was he capable of writing DB, but also making it more successful than evolution. He also wanted to remind the world that DB was nothing like Evolution.
Toriyama kept the same theme TOEI had for BoG [Super Saiyan god and God of destruction] just like he kept the notion of Broly. He wrote the story on both scenarios. That's the point, these two movies were written by Toriyama, based on TOEI's main ideas [Gods/Broly].

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Matches Malone » Sat May 16, 2020 10:27 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:15 pmToriyama kept the same theme TOEI had for BoG [Super Saiyan god and God of destruction] just like he kept the notion of Broly. He wrote the story on both scenarios. That's the point, these two movies were written by Toriyama, based on TOEI's main ideas [Gods/Broly].
There are 2 key differences:

1- BOG's story revolved around an evil lizard like creature who infected civilizations with evil, such as making the Saiyan race evil. That's nowhere to be found in Toriyama's script. The lizard design was replaced with a cat one, and was even given a friend in Whis. The idea of infecting civilizations was replaced with destroying planets. The lizard turned everyone evil against Goku in order to kill him. Beerus was a (mostly) friendly character who just wanted a good fight.

2- SsjG was originally a muscular, long haired form which sees Goku wearing a cape that he powers up to like previous forms. Toriyama's version is nothing like that.

Toei's ideas are nowhere to be found in BOG, the only thing kept were the names SsjG and god of destruction. With Broly, there is no original concepts that were originally written then replaced.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Sat May 16, 2020 10:36 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:27 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:15 pmToriyama kept the same theme TOEI had for BoG [Super Saiyan god and God of destruction] just like he kept the notion of Broly. He wrote the story on both scenarios. That's the point, these two movies were written by Toriyama, based on TOEI's main ideas [Gods/Broly].
There are 2 key differences:

1- BOG's story revolved around an evil lizard like creature who infected civilizations with evil, such as making the Saiyan race evil. That's nowhere to be found in Toriyama's script. The lizard design was replaced with a cat one, and was even given a friend in Whis. The idea of infecting civilizations was replaced with destroying planets. The lizard turned everyone evil against Goku in order to kill him. Beerus was a (mostly) friendly character who just wanted a good fight.

2- SsjG was originally a muscular, long haired form which sees Goku wearing a cape that he powers up to like previous forms. Toriyama's version is nothing like that.

Toei's ideas are nowhere to be found in BOG, the only thing kept were the names SsjG and god of destruction. With Broly, there is no original concepts that were originally written then replaced.
I posted that the themes [SSJG/God of destruction and Broly] were still TOEI's ideas and Toriyama decided to use those. Him creating the scenarios by adding/subtracting around them is still his story. There is no difference.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Matches Malone » Sat May 16, 2020 10:54 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:36 pm I posted that the themes [SSJG/God of destruction and Broly] were still TOEI's ideas and Toriyama decided to use those.
He used the names SsjG and God of destruction, but he didn't use the actual ideas presented to him by Toei.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Mad Swami » Sat May 16, 2020 11:59 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 6:28 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 5:01 pmIf he said no they wouldn't have added to his script. Same with Toyotaro.
Mad Swami wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 11:14 pmI think the Broly movie is more amazing for what sets up in the sense I doubt this will be the last Dragonball movie to use the gorgeous animation.
It also sets up a future where nostalgia is front and center, due to its massive success.
That's also true

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