Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun May 17, 2020 9:33 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 6:01 pm
I don't think the inclusion of the Full-Power form was any different from, say, including Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God. I legitimately don't see Toriyama writing anything other than "Broli forces Vegeta to use Super Saiyan and after they fight some more Gokuu steps in and fights as a Super Saiyan but gets pushed to the brink and transforms into Blue" The full fights as depicted in the film feel much more like Takahashi, Karasawa, Higashide, Oonishi and Nikaido wanted to animate those forms than a Toriyama-style fight. Similarly, I doubt base form and Super Saiyan Gogeta actually fought Broli in Toriyama's script.

Broli's continuous growth of power leading to new forms only works when we consider that the three characters (and Gogeta) are constantly powering up in a back-and-forth with Broli's powering up coming from rapid growth rather than holding back.
Except Broly didn't power up. The form was utterly useless other than for nostalgic fan service. If Broly put up a decent fight in return then fair enough but he didn't therefore not justifying the forms inclusion at all.

Whether God was intended or not the fight changed when the form was used, Goku was relying on more nimble techniques. FP Broly did nothing. That is the issue. There is no iconography for that form at all.

Let's not forget Shintani only got the role due to Toriyama. If this wasn't his film why did he have so much power?

Fact is we know FP Broly came about due to nostalgia nothing to back your claims up and even if there was at least Toei justified those forms unlike the FP form.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by JulieYBM » Sun May 17, 2020 10:24 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:33 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 6:01 pm
I don't think the inclusion of the Full-Power form was any different from, say, including Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God. I legitimately don't see Toriyama writing anything other than "Broli forces Vegeta to use Super Saiyan and after they fight some more Gokuu steps in and fights as a Super Saiyan but gets pushed to the brink and transforms into Blue" The full fights as depicted in the film feel much more like Takahashi, Karasawa, Higashide, Oonishi and Nikaido wanted to animate those forms than a Toriyama-style fight. Similarly, I doubt base form and Super Saiyan Gogeta actually fought Broli in Toriyama's script.

Broli's continuous growth of power leading to new forms only works when we consider that the three characters (and Gogeta) are constantly powering up in a back-and-forth with Broli's powering up coming from rapid growth rather than holding back.
Except Broly didn't power up. The form was utterly useless other than for nostalgic fan service. If Broly put up a decent fight in return then fair enough but he didn't therefore not justifying the forms inclusion at all.

Whether God was intended or not the fight changed when the form was used, Goku was relying on more nimble techniques. FP Broly did nothing. That is the issue. There is no iconography for that form at all.

Let's not forget Shintani only got the role due to Toriyama. If this wasn't his film why did he have so much power?

Fact is we know FP Broly came about due to nostalgia nothing to back your claims up and even if there was at least Toei justified those forms unlike the FP form.
Because these films have been sucking the dicks of the original comic creators ever since One Piece: Strong World was a big hit, that's the only reason Toriyama is being consulted so much. Meanwhile, you have the actual production crews now being forced to curtail their skills to working off bases begun by comic artists who don't know how to make animation or films in general.

Full-Power Super Saiyan was included because Shintani (and likely Nagamine) thought it would be fun to see. The transformation into the form itself is nothing special but seeing Gogeta wipe the floor with it, the the point that Broli seems like he's on the verge of tears, is a unique twist on a Dragon Ball fight's ending. Broli's growth is finally outmatched by Gogeta's power. That's the point of the ending of the fight.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by emperior » Sun May 17, 2020 3:52 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 6:01 pm
I don't think the inclusion of the Full-Power form was any different from, say, including Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God. I legitimately don't see Toriyama writing anything other than "Broli forces Vegeta to use Super Saiyan and after they fight some more Gokuu steps in and fights as a Super Saiyan but gets pushed to the brink and transforms into Blue" The full fights as depicted in the film feel much more like Takahashi, Karasawa, Higashide, Oonishi and Nikaido wanted to animate those forms than a Toriyama-style fight. Similarly, I doubt base form and Super Saiyan Gogeta actually fought Broli in Toriyama's script.

Broli's continuous growth of power leading to new forms only works when we consider that the three characters (and Gogeta) are constantly powering up in a back-and-forth with Broli's powering up coming from rapid growth rather than holding back.
I don’t know about those forms not being part of Toriyama’s script. They may have been. We have no idea how much he detailed those fights. Resurrection F’s script was quite detailed when describing Goku and Vegeta vs Freeza, so Broly may have been quite detailed too.

I actually think he wrote that exact form cycling progression we have seen in the movie because it fits the narrative. Vegeta’s transformations clearly follow a progression written in the script, in fact Goku is surprised to see Broly holding his own against SS Vegeta, then Vegeta has the upper hand and almost kills Broly. And considering how Blue is > Rage Broly, then surely Goku used God too in the script as he takes over right after Vegeta. Maybe Goku wasn’t mean to fight in his normal state and SS1, though.

Also, the animators wouldn’t have a say. If it wasn’t Toriyama’s idea to have Super Saiyan God fighting then it was Nagamine’s and, at best, Shintani’s too considering he was the one doing the designs.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Luso Saiyan » Sun May 17, 2020 4:12 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 6:28 pm
They're not forcing anything on him, he himself has said multiple times that he wants to do what the fans want, which is what they're telling him.
Who said they are forcing anything on anyone? Way to completely miss the point.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Sun May 17, 2020 4:49 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:54 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:36 pm
I posted that the themes [SSJG/God of destruction and Broly] were still TOEI's ideas and Toriyama decided to use those.
He used the names SsjG and God of destruction, but he didn't use the actual ideas presented to him by Toei.
The creative idea of the gods/SSJG/Broly were what Toriyama used from TOEI. However, Toriyama did not use their themes/designs. Just like with Broly's atmosphere, he wrote from scratch, same with the SSJG and Beerus.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by The Undying » Mon May 18, 2020 3:40 am

I'm not really seeing the problem with "FP Broly" here.

It exists, but doesn't pretend to be anything more than an added visual touch. It's completely innocuous.

It not being in the script means any attempt to give it some greater significance would have resulted in lipservice and fake tension. Now that would have been shoehorned. If Shintani wants to throw a bone to older fans by including green hair, making it exclusive to the movie's visuals is about the best way to do it.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Mon May 18, 2020 10:24 pm

To me, "FP Broly," as far as tension, was meaningless.The outcome didn't bring any change to the battle.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat May 23, 2020 8:38 am

Again Toriyama's SS Broly was a sublte homage it shows the difference between Toriyama and everyone else. Look I love Shintani but he should have stayed out of it and his stupid FP Broly threatened to ruin the film, this is not the Broly of old IT IS IN NAME ONLY and the this stupid green form born out of nothing but selfish nostalgia ruins it. It just does. That's the last thing I am gonna say on the matter.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by pepd » Sat May 23, 2020 1:59 pm

What is the consensus on green hair Broly in the manga? I always thought that he and Kale had normal golden hair

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Alruneia » Sat May 23, 2020 3:13 pm

pepd wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:59 pm
What is the consensus on green hair Broly in the manga? I always thought that he and Kale had normal golden hair
Gold, I think. It was gold in the poster Toyotaro made for the movie, at least, and a greyscale version of that poster was used as a manga panel to represent the Broly story before the manga moved on to the Moro arc. Not that that guarantees that his hair isn't green at any point, I suppose. Since there's a coloured version of the manga slowly being released as well, you can always just wait until that reaches the Kale and Kefla part of the ToP, then you'll know for sure.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Grimlock » Sat May 23, 2020 3:25 pm

pepd wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:59 pm
I always thought that he and Kale had normal golden hair
As it should be anyway. But we have to put up with the green one. Since the colored manga is based on the anime unfortunately, we are going to see that green hair in the manga too.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by SSJgogeto » Sat May 23, 2020 3:42 pm

IMO is more like "could be" instead of "should be".
Alruneia wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:13 pm
It was gold in the poster Toyotaro made for the movie
But in that poster Broly is just a Super Saiyan, right? The green color only appears in his FP form.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Miracles » Sat May 23, 2020 3:58 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:38 am
Again Toriyama's SS Broly was a sublte homage it shows the difference between Toriyama and everyone else. Look I love Shintani but he should have stayed out of it and his stupid FP Broly threatened to ruin the film, this is not the Broly of old IT IS IN NAME ONLY and the this stupid green form born out of nothing but selfish nostalgia ruins it. It just does. That's the last thing I am gonna say on the matter.
They did ask Toriyama. He let them do it. Only thing is he said don't make him too muscular.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Alruneia » Sat May 23, 2020 4:47 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:42 pm
Alruneia wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:13 pm
It was gold in the poster Toyotaro made for the movie
But in that poster Broly is just a Super Saiyan, right? The green color only appears in his FP form.
I'll just refer back to the ongoing discussion in this thread about the addition of SSFP Broly in the movie.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by pepd » Sun May 24, 2020 12:44 am

Grimlock wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:25 pm
Since the colored manga is based on the anime unfortunately, we are going to see that green hair in the manga too.
This is so sad. I forgot about that. I really like the idea of both being just golden. At least I can ignore it because it doesn't follow the original manga colors. Hopefully Toyotarō doesn't color them if the regular manga has to use this colors too. If he makes them golden in a cover or something in the b&w manga I will be happy.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Grimlock » Sun May 24, 2020 1:27 pm

Sad indeed. Damn whoever thought it was a good idea to give an ugly color such as green to the Super Saiyan. We would at least have one less recolor to worry about and both Kafla and this Broly wouldn't have to suffer for it. The latter was fine having just the regular golden Super Saiyan as his strongest form yet, but they had to shove down our throats that terrible transformation.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by KorgDTR2000 » Sun May 24, 2020 3:27 pm

Noitsnothim wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:11 pm
Now the post movie hype has died, what is everyone's opinions on Broly:BR?
Watched the movie not long ago. First time I've ever watched anything Super. It was OK.

Broly is a wholly sympathetic character now. The question is, does that actually make him a deeper character? I think that this new version of Broly is a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water. For starters, his origin is functionally identical to the original but, in my opinion, is far less interesting and dramatic. While the present-day story in the movie is less convoluted, the backstory is more convoluted. The flashback sequences of the original movie were so effective. They were moody and ugly. The image of Broly and Paragus dying on a trash heap has always stuck with me. They said so much with very little.

With both characters having the same basic backstory of "Born super powerful, cast aside along with their father, enslaved by technology," the only real difference is that the original Broly is evil while the new Broly is just mindless. In a sense, the Super version almost plays into the fan perception of Broly rather than what the character actually was.

The big issue I have with both versions of the character is lack of agency. In both cases Broly is a slave to Paragus. The difference is we see the original Broly for who he is (a sadistic psychopath) by the end of the movie, but in the beginning his real personality is masked by the mind control. The new Broly we get to know him early on, but the nature of his power means that his personality has no bearing on the movie once he starts fighting.

What disappoints me the most about the original version is his tragic origin plays no part in his character. He's murdered and enslaved, but once he actually gets free of Paragus' control all he has is the stock Saiyan motivation of wanting to fight and kill. Paragus says that Broly hated King Vegeta, but we never see it and he doesn't take any special revenge against Vegeta. The only hint that Broly cares about the past at all is in his dying moments when he flashes back to when he and Kakarot were babies, which on reflection I believe only serves as a "power versus spirit" symbol. You can easily draw the line that all of the trauma Broly experienced is what made him insane, so there is a tragic element to the character, but I would have liked to actually see revenge come into it. Of course, in his second appearance he is out for revenge but we know how that goes.

And despite the hype, the new version is pretty flat too. His trauma is played for sympathy, but being sympathetic is basically his entire character. He's just a nice guy who goes insane from time to time. He gets points for actually having scenes where he's a person and talks to people, but that just disappears once the actual fighting starts.

I also think the redesign completely pales in comparison to the old one. I think it was a missed opportunity to change him so drastically, because seeing the old Broly in this new role would have driven home the differences more.

So I guess overall it's a wash. The new Broly doesn't replace the old one in my mind, and I think they could have taken the original character and just presented him sympathetically rather than make up something that's new but also kind of the same thing.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by JulieYBM » Sun May 24, 2020 4:28 pm

I'd really like to see more of this Broli. I want to see him in non-battle scenarios, too. Removing the 25 minute prologue, we only get to see this new Broli's character interactions for twenty or so minutes before he lands on Earth and it overcome by his father's thirst for revenge. This Broli really feels like he could be the protagonist of his own series. I really wish Dragon Ball would stop being so samey and legitimately break off into a spin-off series of some sort because I definitely want to see how Nagamine and Tomioka would develop him further.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by Noah » Sun May 24, 2020 9:45 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 6:48 am
That's precisely why I say manga is just a side thing it doesn't affect the franchise in anyway. Bandai basically admitted it with Broly saying SSG Vegeta took marketing preference over SSG Goku because it was SSG Vegeta's first appearance despite the form being in the manga a while ago.

Isn't that a consensus around here?
Noitsnothim wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:11 pm
Now the post movie hype has died, what is everyone's opinions on Broly:BR?
Well, the only thing that I like about this new Broly is its design, though I still hate that still keeps the trend of modern LSSJ like transformations to have green hair in which I abominate.

Character wise I agree with everything you just said, he's just a full blooded Gohan. I wanted this Broly to be cruel and psycho like his past counterpart, but yeah... They probably didn't that expecting him to be a recurring character on the good guys side.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie Thread: "Broly"

Post by pepd » Mon May 25, 2020 1:45 am

Loved the designs, characters and backstories of the trio. The animation in general was great, except for the heavy cgi fight scenes, those where awful. The scene where Goku Throws snow at Bulma is of my favorites. :lol:
About FP Broly, I see it as those white hair Goku and green hair Vegeta frames. As long as it stays out the b&w manga, it wont bother me much.

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