Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[Mister_Popo]

After rewatching Shenlong's speech in BOG-movie, which is canon as Toriyama was deeply involved with the script of the movie more so than Super,and comparing that with what Toriyama told concerning the first SSJ, i see no conflicting information or retcons at the moment considering the original author's opinion.
Yamoshi lived way before the first actual SSJG appeared on planet Sadala, the Saiyan that used the power of SSJG on planet Vegeta used the power before Goku did and was the original SSJG, not Yamoshi. Yamoshi was the first one to become SSJ but never was SSJG, he created the power of SSJG by passing his spiritual power through the hearts of righteous Saiyans.

I disagree. In the interview, Toriyama himself states that, "In a certain sense, they are the same person."

Not exactly, the Saiyan on Sadala that became the first SSJG was not Yamoshi, it was never stated it was him. You could look at it as he obtained the power of a SSJG and in a sense used Yamoshi's spiritual power by doing so, but then the same could be said with Goku. Literary no, it wasn't the same person. based on the facts we know now.

[Kakarot]

Not exactly, the Saiyan on Sadala that became the first SSJG was not Yamoshi, it was never stated it was him. You could look at it was Yamoshi because he obtained the power of a SSJG and in a sense used his spiritual power, but then the same could be said with Goku. Literary no, it wasn't the same person. based on the facts we know now.

"Q9: Was the 'legendary Super Saiyan' Freeza feared the Super Saiyan God that appeared in Battle of Gods? Toriyama: In a certain sense, they are the same person." That's a direct statement from Toriyama. Your theory is just headcanon.

[Mister_Popo]

"Q9: Was the 'legendary Super Saiyan' Freeza feared the Super Saiyan God that appeared in Battle of Gods? Toriyama: In a certain sense, they are the same person." That's a direct statement from Toriyama. Your theory is just headcanon.

In a certain sense means something different than the same person. That's a very important nuance Toriyama states during that interview.
But that wasn't the main point of the discussion, it was about whether the guy on Vegeta was Yamoshi, he couldn't have been based on what we know now at this point.
Yamoshi's physical appearance died a long time before he lived and before Goku lived.

[Kakarot]

"Q9: Was the 'legendary Super Saiyan' Freeza feared the Super Saiyan God that appeared in Battle of Gods? Toriyama: In a certain sense, they are the same person." That's a direct statement from Toriyama. Your theory is just headcanon.

In a certain sense means something different than the same person. That's a very important nuance Toriyama states during that interview.
But that wasn't the main point of the discussion, it was about whether the guy on Vegeta was Yamoshi, he couldn't have been based on what we know now at this point.
Yamoshi's physical appearance died a long time before he lived and before Goku lived.

There wasn't a SSG on Planet Vegeta. The Battle of Gods movie was retconned once Super came into the picture.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

"Q9: Was the 'legendary Super Saiyan' Freeza feared the Super Saiyan God that appeared in Battle of Gods? Toriyama: In a certain sense, they are the same person." That's a direct statement from Toriyama. Your theory is just headcanon.

In a certain sense means something different than the same person. That's a very important nuance Toriyama states during that interview.
But that wasn't the main point of the discussion, it was about whether the guy on Vegeta was Yamoshi, he couldn't have been based on what we know now at this point.
Yamoshi's physical appearance died a long time before he lived and before Goku lived.

There wasn't a SSG on Planet Vegeta. The Battle of Gods movie was retconned once Super came into the picture.

Ah, but the interview specifically mentioned the SSG from the film, the one said to have appeared over Planet Vegeta.

Not to mention that Yamoshi's spirit SOUGHT a new saviour, the SSG, not BECAME a new saviour.

His spirit wandering in search of 6 righteous Saiyans is why there's a ritual in the first place.

Honestly, given how many folks misinterpret the information from the interview, I hope the upcoming film DOES cover this information, if only to clarify things for audiences.

[Mister_Popo]

"Q9: Was the 'legendary Super Saiyan' Freeza feared the Super Saiyan God that appeared in Battle of Gods? Toriyama: In a certain sense, they are the same person." That's a direct statement from Toriyama. Your theory is just headcanon.

In a certain sense means something different than the same person. That's a very important nuance Toriyama states during that interview.
But that wasn't the main point of the discussion, it was about whether the guy on Vegeta was Yamoshi, he couldn't have been based on what we know now at this point.
Yamoshi's physical appearance died a long time before he lived and before Goku lived.

There wasn't a SSG on Planet Vegeta. The Battle of Gods movie was retconned once Super came into the picture.

Strange, i have always seen Super more like a retcon of the movies, Super's version was approved by Toriyama, but Toriyama was more involved in the story of the movies.
The power scaling of the movies was indeed retconned. But that part isn't as far as i'm concerned. That part of the story just wasn't mentionned during Shenlong's summoning in Super. That's something different than a retcon. For a retcon to occur you first have to obtain some degree of contrast. There is no contrast in this case: both things could still have happened within the same continuity.

[Grimlock]

Ah, but the interview specifically mentioned the SSG from the film, the one said to have appeared over Planet Vegeta.

Not to mention that Yamoshi's spirit SOUGHT a new saviour, the SSG, not BECAME a new saviour.

His spirit wandering in search of 6 righteous Saiyans is why there's a ritual in the first place.

Honestly, given how many folks misinterpret the information from the interview, I hope the upcoming film DOES cover this information, if only to clarify things for audiences.

Not only the interview uses Movie 14 as basis, we know that Toriyama was involved with it. Whereas we don't know if Toriyama was involved (to the same extent) with the retellings (if he were, Toriyama would probably answer for the anime, but it isn't the case). So it's better for us to stick with the movie.

And yeah, the movie has to clarify a lot of things, that included.

[Mister_Popo]

I had no massive objections against the serialization of BOG or ROF into the Super-story at first. I could somehow understand it because it was the beginning of Super, the God-power-story and some things / context needed to be added. But it did raise questions on the domain of consequence, although the retelling of BOG and even the ROF-arc with the Whis-training and explaination of God-Ki had its good parts, it did lead to some retcons and confusion among fans. For the sake of canon-clarification and -unity, i hope they'll make the movie episode 132 or cut it in three or four parts if incapsuled into the continuation of the Super-series. What could still be a valable option: use the same content and animation of the movie, but add it with some filler to make a mini arc (12 episodes max). A complete remake, although with the same seed-story, could lead to confusion. With such an important piece of the story (origin of Saiyans), maybe it would be wiser to keep one version for this one.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I had no massive objections against the serialization of BOG or ROF into the Super-story at first. I could somehow understand it because it was the beginning of Super, the God-power-story and some things / context needed to be added. But it did raise questions on the domain of consequence, although the retelling of BOG and even the ROF-arc with the Whis-training and explaination of God-Ki had its good parts, it did lead to some retcons and confusion among fans. For the sake of canon-clarification and -unity, i hope they'll make the movie episode 132 or cut it in three or four parts if incapsuled into the continuation of the Super-series. What could still be a valable option: retell it with some filler, but use the same main content. A complete remake, although with the same seed-story, could lead to confusion. With such an important piece of the story (origin of Saiyans), maybe it would be wiser to keep one version for this one.

I can agree on that. Just the movie and the manga adaptation; two continuities, nice and simple.

[ArchedThunder]

And Toriyama is prone to forgetting things or just changing details.

I'm well aware of that but in this case, nothing even suggests it is a retcon, or Toriyama simply forgot and came up with similar concept. As anyone can see, it's two different information that fit with one another perfectly. Until they show what you are saying in the next movie, what I am saying is what we should stick with by now, because this is what have been passed to us.

Toriyama says right there that "the Super Saiyan God that appeared in Battle of Gods" was Yamoshi.

I already said what he meant by "in a certain sense", no need to repeat myself again. Yamoshi wasn't even alive by the time Saiyans moved to planet Plant, he was killed when he wore out.

Your reading of "in a certain sense" makes no sense, the only way that statement makes sense with what Toriyama said is if Yamoshi is the God shown in BoG, but he didn't actually go God.

Ah, but the interview specifically mentioned the SSG from the film, the one said to have appeared over Planet Vegeta.

Not to mention that Yamoshi's spirit SOUGHT a new saviour, the SSG, not BECAME a new saviour.

His spirit wandering in search of 6 righteous Saiyans is why there's a ritual in the first place.

Honestly, given how many folks misinterpret the information from the interview, I hope the upcoming film DOES cover this information, if only to clarify things for audiences.

Not only the interview uses Movie 14 as basis, we know that Toriyama was involved with it. Whereas we don't know if Toriyama was involved (to the same extent) with the retellings (if he were, Toriyama would probably answer for the anime, but it isn't the case). So it's better for us to stick with the movie.

And yeah, the movie has to clarify a lot of things, that included.

The interview talks about the Namekian Book of Legends, something first mentioned in Super.

[Grimlock]

Your reading of "in a certain sense" makes no sense, the only way that statement makes sense with what Toriyama said is if Yamoshi is the God shown in BoG, but he didn't actually go God.

I agree, Yamoshi being a Super Saiyan of legend and being the reason for the existence of Super Saiyan God form is really difficult to understand. Even though the facts are there and they are as clear as day, let's just ignore information in order to please the way we think. It was only possible for the Saiyan to transform into Super Saiyan God in planet Vegeta because of Yamoshi (hence "in a certain sense, they're the same"), but clearly it doesn't make sense.

Yamoshi is the God shown in BoG, but he didn't actually go God.

Wait, is he the god or not?

The interview talks about the Namekian Book of Legends, something first mentioned in Super.

What's your point here? That doesn't even imply Toriyama was fully involved with the retellings. More like a note from Toriyama that Toei decided to use it.

[ArchedThunder]

Your reading of "in a certain sense" makes no sense, the only way that statement makes sense with what Toriyama said is if Yamoshi is the God shown in BoG, but he didn't actually go God.

I agree, Yamoshi being a Super Saiyan of legend and being the reason for the existence of Super Saiyan God form is really difficult to understand. Even though the facts are there and they are as clear as day, let's just ignore information in order to please the way we think, the way we think things are. It was only possible for the Saiyan to transform into Super Saiyan God in planet Vegeta because of Yamoshi (hence "in a certain sense, they're the same"), but clearly it doesn't make sense.

Yamoshi is the God shown in BoG, but he didn't actually go God.

Wait, is he the god or not?

The interview talks about the Namekian Book of Legends, something first mentioned in Super.

What's your point here? That doesn't even imply Toriyama was fully involved with the retellings. More like a note from Toriyama that Toei decided to use it.

Yamoshi is the Saiyan that Shenlong talks about, but he never actually went God, a Namekian Elder made that up, that's what Toriyama means by "in a certain sense". Toriyama outright says that the Super Saiyan God shown in BoG was Yamoshi, but he also says that Yamoshi didn't actually go God, that was just part of the legend. The line about Planet Vegeta is irrelevant, Toriyama changed his mind. And Toriyama never says that Yamoshi's spirit is what makes Super Saiyan God possible, that's some some random fan speculation.

[Grimlock]

Okay, I get it now. You're twisting Toriyama's words for Dende knows why. I usually ask for a source and I would do it here and now, mainly for the part where you say the Namekusejin made up but there's really no point in doing it, you're just twisting Toriyama's words for the sake of it.

This is just like that case in which people, for some weird reason, really think Beerus was referring to Movie 14 Goku when he said that Goku wasn't capable of defeating Freeza and had to rely on a transformation, when obviously he was referring to Freeza saga Goku. Twisted interpretation, oh well. This won't get anywhere, so I'll drop it by now.

[ArchedThunder]

Okay, I get it now. You're twisting Toriyama's words for Dende knows why. I usually ask for a source and I would do it here and now, mainly for the part where you say the Namekusejin made up but there's really no point in doing it, you're just twisting Toriyama's words for the sake of it.

This is just like that case in which people, for some weird reason, really think Beerus was referring to Movie 14 Goku when he said that Goku wasn't capable of defeating Freeza and had to rely on a transformation, when obviously he was referring to Freeza saga Goku. Twisted interpretation, oh well. This won't get anywhere, so I'll drop it by now.

I'm not twisting words at all, your ignoring the words that Toriyama said. You're coming up with head canon to try and make your narrative fit what Toriyama said when he's pretty explicit in what he's saying, both in Yamoshi being the God shown in BoG and in the Namekian Elder writing the legend. Toriyama outright says that a Namekian Elder sympathized with Yamoshi's spirit and wrote the Super Saiyan God legend into the Book of Legends.

Also the Beerus comment is about Goku as he was there, Beerus examines Goku and says "It doesn't appear to me like you could defeat him as you are, but I understand that you transform and power up in what's called Super Saiyan." He is explicitly saying that he couldn't see how the Goku he's looking at right now could beat Freeza without transforming.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

This is under DBS brand, the retellings name dropped NBoL it doesn't make sense to use BoG movie as a base at all.

[jeffbr92]

What does it say?

[Vegeta_Sama]

What does it say?

We should have a Herms button

[Chuquita]

Herms got to this one a couple days back: https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 6610633728

Nothing new on it, unfortunately, it's just the Toriyama comment that's been on the movie's site.

[Polyphase Avatron]

How I predict the fight in the movie will go:

Goku uses all of his forms up to SSJB Kaio-ken x20 against the villain but still loses. Vegeta rediscovers the SSJBE form and does better but also ultimately loses. Just as it seems the villain is about to kill them, Goku rediscovers Ultra Instinct and easily defeats him. In the end the villain is weaker than Jiren.

[Kenneth La Torre]

How I predict the fight in the movie will go:

Goku uses all of his forms up to SSJB Kaio-ken x20 against the villain but still loses. Vegeta rediscovers the SSJBE form and does better but also ultimately loses. Just as it seems the villain is about to kill them, Goku rediscovers Ultra Instinct and easily defeats him. In the end the villain is weaker than Jiren.

I dont even think UI is going to play a toke in this movie. I think theres a reason the writers decided to have goku not have the ability, for now. It should be a very, very rare occasion.

Or maybe let hin use UI omen not the full one. I think its too soon to have another hakaishin level + being.