General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:36 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I've given my two cents on the character as a whole in the past, and nothing about it has changed:
[spoiler]People often complain that Zamasu had no real backstory, but I disagree with that. While he was shown to be a Kaioshin, Zamasu cared greatly enough for the development and prosperity of the universe, that Zamasu often questioned the worth of mortals and didn't believe in their ability to handle conflict as they were prone to commence war in a repeated cycle. And given the events that transpired in the main story, he has a very valid point. The Kaioshin of Universe 7 stood by and watched Freeza terrorize most of the galaxy for God knows how long before Goku and Future Trunks took care of him. It's made even worse by the fact the Kaioshin were strong enough to defeat Freeza with one blow, but they still stood by and did nothing. Then you take into consideration that the events of the Android/Cell arc and the Majin Boo arc happened on purely through the arrogance and selfishness of the main cast. He also did not agree with how the Kaioshin would not be more directly involved in mortals' actions like the Gods of Destruction, and scoffs at the idea that mortals can be trusted to handle important matters, let alone rival the might of gods.

The moment with him and Gowasu travelling to the Babarians world was a huge turning point in his character. Because if he ever needed more fuel to add to his argument of how dangerous and unruly mortals could be, that was it. Zamasu claimed that they should destroy the planet because they will never learn to be civilized, to which Gowasu is shocked by this response and in an attempt to prove him wrong, Gowasu and Zamasu travel 1000 years to the future, only to find out that the civilization has not advanced from the small culture it originally was, and the race as whole still remained hostile, angry and aggressive race, as the same two of the Babarians are seen fighting. And just to add the cherry on top, one of the Babarians tries to attack Zamasu and Gowasu at first glance. But what made scene all the more poignant was the look of shock on Zamasu face after he cut the Babarian in half. He didn't evilly grin and manically laugh like a person that would be jumping down the route of evil would. He was just seemed more taken aback that his natural instinct would lead him to do such a thing, even in the extreme circumstance. It's those little details that may not seem to matter but they really do so much for the perspective of his character and story. Zamasu may have resented mortals and may have been very judgmental of their worth in the grand scope of the universe, but the concept of actually killing them with his own hands was still a foreign idea to him.

Meeting Goku was where his character officially went off the deep end. After meeting Goku however and losing to him quickly in a sparring match, his views radically changed and his distrustful nature towards mortals only grew. Annoyed at Goku's carefree attitude and lack of respect, his distaste for the Gods not quelling the dangerous nature of mortals evolved from petty resentment and judgement to a full blown radicalism against all who are not Gods. Shocked at how a mortal like Goku could gain a power rivaling gods, let alone even obtaining such power in the first place, and so recklessly and cavalierly challenging a God, and to defeat him easily, Zamasu came to sternly believe that mortal life by nature is an chaotic and evil and must be dealt with swiftly for the betterment of the universe.

Goku Black and Future Zamasu is the embodiment of Zamasu basically giving into the his dark side and goes through with his plan to be a more active Kaioshin and try set right what he thinks has been done wrong by other Kiaoshin standing back and letting mortal create all kinds of havoc. He is extremely sadistic, as well as savage in battle and also relishes the opportunity to test his new power or abilities, but also shown to be very pragmatic is his way of achieving his Zero Mortals Plan, never lost his composure when things didn't go his way, was also so formal with his speech pattern, and never wasted an opportunity to display his superiority complex and his plan to create a utopia by eliminating all mortals. And he never wasted an opportunity to display his superiority complex and his fixation on beauty. But what was so unique Goku Black was that, despite his appearance, he wasn't necessarily "Evil Goku" to even begin with. Goku Black was his own unique character with his own wonderful quirks.

Merged Zamasu is basically the accumulation of all the arrogance and self-entitlement of Goku Black and Future Zamasu. He literally sees himself as the embodiment of justice and having delusions of grandeur. His belief that he is truly this supreme God of justice that will create an new utopia for the universe even drive him to tears, as his feeling of responsibility to set everything right that he thinks is wrong overwhelms him emotionally. Of course, once Vegetto and later Future Trunks prove to be too much of a match for him, Merged Zamasu is reduced to nothing more the equivalent of a deranged madman swinging around a axe and butcher's knife at the same time. Constantly screaming and attacking with more savagery and fury than before and grinning like a psychopath, while making outrageous declarations of Godhood. It was at that point that Zamasu's descent into darkness had gone full circle, as he had officially become just as destructive, violent, aggressive and unhinged as the mortals he vilified and believed the universe would be better without. Of course, the dramatic irony of the situation never became apparent to him, as Zamasu still saw himself as the saviour the universe needed and wanted. Even in his death, his immortal soul and conscious spread across the world, the universe, the multiverse and even throughout timelines. Showing that even with no physically body to carry out his deeds, his spiritual body still feels compelled to become one with order and justice. If there's one thing you can't deny Zamasu had, it was dedication to his cause.

I think some people don't have a proper grasp of Zamasu's goals or motives, because Zamasu is actually a very complicated character. At the start, you see a young, bashful and down-to-earth Kaioshin who ultimately calls a spade a spade and knows of just how dangerous mortals can be and openly questions the system that he is a part of. He feels, given the role that he has, that he doesn't have the true freedom of doing enough to curb the continuing cycle of violence that is tarnishing the imagine of the universe he is meant to protect and look over. Zamasu was clearing getting tired of being a bystander and actually wanted to be an active role as a Kaioshin and instead of just watching mayhem spontaneously unfold before him, and that is what makes his fall from grace all the more raw and amazing to watch. He had good intentions for the sake of his universe but the fashion of which he went about them became more extreme with how events would later unfold, such as him visiting the Babarians planet and encountering Goku. It's what makes him quite an awesome villain, and even to a degree, quite a tragic character. Because he wasn't really evil to begin with. He was just jaded and disillusioned by what he saw and what he knew and took matters into his own hands.

So... yeah. Zamasu is awesome. He is a fantastically written villain, and has many layers to him and which make him, in my humble opinion, the best written antagonist and overall character the franchise has ever produced.[/spoiler]
TL:DR - Zamasu is a great character and villain.
Everytime I want to talk about this subject, you always beat me to the punch with this and I don't bother. Because it's everything I want to say but laid out better. :thumbup:

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by majinwarman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:21 am

Lord Frieza wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:I've given my two cents on the character as a whole in the past, and nothing about it has changed:
[spoiler]People often complain that Zamasu had no real backstory, but I disagree with that. While he was shown to be a Kaioshin, Zamasu cared greatly enough for the development and prosperity of the universe, that Zamasu often questioned the worth of mortals and didn't believe in their ability to handle conflict as they were prone to commence war in a repeated cycle. And given the events that transpired in the main story, he has a very valid point. The Kaioshin of Universe 7 stood by and watched Freeza terrorize most of the galaxy for God knows how long before Goku and Future Trunks took care of him. It's made even worse by the fact the Kaioshin were strong enough to defeat Freeza with one blow, but they still stood by and did nothing. Then you take into consideration that the events of the Android/Cell arc and the Majin Boo arc happened on purely through the arrogance and selfishness of the main cast. He also did not agree with how the Kaioshin would not be more directly involved in mortals' actions like the Gods of Destruction, and scoffs at the idea that mortals can be trusted to handle important matters, let alone rival the might of gods.

The moment with him and Gowasu travelling to the Babarians world was a huge turning point in his character. Because if he ever needed more fuel to add to his argument of how dangerous and unruly mortals could be, that was it. Zamasu claimed that they should destroy the planet because they will never learn to be civilized, to which Gowasu is shocked by this response and in an attempt to prove him wrong, Gowasu and Zamasu travel 1000 years to the future, only to find out that the civilization has not advanced from the small culture it originally was, and the race as whole still remained hostile, angry and aggressive race, as the same two of the Babarians are seen fighting. And just to add the cherry on top, one of the Babarians tries to attack Zamasu and Gowasu at first glance. But what made scene all the more poignant was the look of shock on Zamasu face after he cut the Babarian in half. He didn't evilly grin and manically laugh like a person that would be jumping down the route of evil would. He was just seemed more taken aback that his natural instinct would lead him to do such a thing, even in the extreme circumstance. It's those little details that may not seem to matter but they really do so much for the perspective of his character and story. Zamasu may have resented mortals and may have been very judgmental of their worth in the grand scope of the universe, but the concept of actually killing them with his own hands was still a foreign idea to him.

Meeting Goku was where his character officially went off the deep end. After meeting Goku however and losing to him quickly in a sparring match, his views radically changed and his distrustful nature towards mortals only grew. Annoyed at Goku's carefree attitude and lack of respect, his distaste for the Gods not quelling the dangerous nature of mortals evolved from petty resentment and judgement to a full blown radicalism against all who are not Gods. Shocked at how a mortal like Goku could gain a power rivaling gods, let alone even obtaining such power in the first place, and so recklessly and cavalierly challenging a God, and to defeat him easily, Zamasu came to sternly believe that mortal life by nature is an chaotic and evil and must be dealt with swiftly for the betterment of the universe.

Goku Black and Future Zamasu is the embodiment of Zamasu basically giving into the his dark side and goes through with his plan to be a more active Kaioshin and try set right what he thinks has been done wrong by other Kiaoshin standing back and letting mortal create all kinds of havoc. He is extremely sadistic, as well as savage in battle and also relishes the opportunity to test his new power or abilities, but also shown to be very pragmatic is his way of achieving his Zero Mortals Plan, never lost his composure when things didn't go his way, was also so formal with his speech pattern, and never wasted an opportunity to display his superiority complex and his plan to create a utopia by eliminating all mortals. And he never wasted an opportunity to display his superiority complex and his fixation on beauty. But what was so unique Goku Black was that, despite his appearance, he wasn't necessarily "Evil Goku" to even begin with. Goku Black was his own unique character with his own wonderful quirks.

Merged Zamasu is basically the accumulation of all the arrogance and self-entitlement of Goku Black and Future Zamasu. He literally sees himself as the embodiment of justice and having delusions of grandeur. His belief that he is truly this supreme God of justice that will create an new utopia for the universe even drive him to tears, as his feeling of responsibility to set everything right that he thinks is wrong overwhelms him emotionally. Of course, once Vegetto and later Future Trunks prove to be too much of a match for him, Merged Zamasu is reduced to nothing more the equivalent of a deranged madman swinging around a axe and butcher's knife at the same time. Constantly screaming and attacking with more savagery and fury than before and grinning like a psychopath, while making outrageous declarations of Godhood. It was at that point that Zamasu's descent into darkness had gone full circle, as he had officially become just as destructive, violent, aggressive and unhinged as the mortals he vilified and believed the universe would be better without. Of course, the dramatic irony of the situation never became apparent to him, as Zamasu still saw himself as the saviour the universe needed and wanted. Even in his death, his immortal soul and conscious spread across the world, the universe, the multiverse and even throughout timelines. Showing that even with no physically body to carry out his deeds, his spiritual body still feels compelled to become one with order and justice. If there's one thing you can't deny Zamasu had, it was dedication to his cause.

I think some people don't have a proper grasp of Zamasu's goals or motives, because Zamasu is actually a very complicated character. At the start, you see a young, bashful and down-to-earth Kaioshin who ultimately calls a spade a spade and knows of just how dangerous mortals can be and openly questions the system that he is a part of. He feels, given the role that he has, that he doesn't have the true freedom of doing enough to curb the continuing cycle of violence that is tarnishing the imagine of the universe he is meant to protect and look over. Zamasu was clearing getting tired of being a bystander and actually wanted to be an active role as a Kaioshin and instead of just watching mayhem spontaneously unfold before him, and that is what makes his fall from grace all the more raw and amazing to watch. He had good intentions for the sake of his universe but the fashion of which he went about them became more extreme with how events would later unfold, such as him visiting the Babarians planet and encountering Goku. It's what makes him quite an awesome villain, and even to a degree, quite a tragic character. Because he wasn't really evil to begin with. He was just jaded and disillusioned by what he saw and what he knew and took matters into his own hands.

So... yeah. Zamasu is awesome. He is a fantastically written villain, and has many layers to him and which make him, in my humble opinion, the best written antagonist and overall character the franchise has ever produced.[/spoiler]
TL:DR - Zamasu is a great character and villain.
Everytime I want to talk about this subject, you always beat me to the punch with this and I don't bother. Because it's everything I want to say but laid out better. :thumbup:
At this point, the only thing I could say is that I'm going to miss Zamasu. He was such a great villain to have in the modern day Dragon Ball time.
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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by Gokitalo » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:59 am

I'm a big fan of Zamasu as a character. Aside from the famous Makaioshins of Dragon Ball Online and Xenoverse, we hadn't really seen an evil Kai before, and I thought his descent into villainy made a lot of sense for the character. Here's a guy who's considered a deity whose future calling is to watch over a universe of flawed beings. I can see how a person in his position might consider taking a crueler, more hands-on approach in making sure violent, "lesser" beings don't stand in the way of progress. His eventual conclusion that all non-gods are counterproductive to the progression of the universe isn't that out there for him, either. Being a deity, it's natural he'd believe himself superior to the less powerful beings he's been tasked to watch.

I think he's a testament to how good Akira Toriyama is at giving his characters distinct personalities. Despite not writing the episodes for Super's anime, it's clear Toriyama gave the crew a pretty strong outline and impression of Zamasu's storyline and nature, since it's pretty much the same version of the character we've seen in Super's manga, which Toriyama oversees, outlines and contributes to when necessary. Plus Toriyama even noted in one of his Q&As with Toyotaro that not having to draw the whole story himself gave him more time to focus on developing Zamasu's personality. To me, Zamasu's as distinct as the Buus, Beerus and Freeza.

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by puar » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:30 am

Freeza9000 wrote:
puar wrote:
Freeza9000 wrote: I don't think you have a good grasp on historical events at all.
were not talking about the real world were talking about the dragon ball world. in which the planet is united and there are no wars
You mean the numerous amounts of criminal organizations, thieves, robbers, bandits galore that attempted world domination? This is more evident on Future Trunks's crapsack world where one of them nearly drove humanity to the brink of extinction.
criminals will allwayes be existed. the planet earth of dragonball is a peacefull planet without any wars

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:27 am

puar wrote:
Freeza9000 wrote:
puar wrote:
were not talking about the real world were talking about the dragon ball world. in which the planet is united and there are no wars
You mean the numerous amounts of criminal organizations, thieves, robbers, bandits galore that attempted world domination? This is more evident on Future Trunks's crapsack world where one of them nearly drove humanity to the brink of extinction.
criminals will allwayes be existed. the planet earth of dragonball is a peacefull planet without any wars
Besides you know, when aliens, or mad scientists, or demons from other worlds decide to destroy the Earth and kill everything on it, as well as the entire universe.

In Trunks timeline, what do you think the Androids were? They were killing machines, made by humans, to conquer the entire planet. How does that not demonstrate Zamasu's believes about mortals?

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by puar » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:51 am

JazzMazz wrote:
puar wrote:
Freeza9000 wrote: You mean the numerous amounts of criminal organizations, thieves, robbers, bandits galore that attempted world domination? This is more evident on Future Trunks's crapsack world where one of them nearly drove humanity to the brink of extinction.
criminals will allwayes be existed. the planet earth of dragonball is a peacefull planet without any wars
Besides you know, when aliens, or mad scientists, or demons from other worlds decide to destroy the Earth and kill everything on it, as well as the entire universe.

In Trunks timeline, what do you think the Androids were? They were killing machines, made by humans, to conquer the entire planet. How does that not demonstrate Zamasu's believes about mortals?
still. a smart supreme kai will not judge all mortals because of few. just like not all humans are evil because of few serial killers right? so that proves zamasu is an idiot.

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:46 am

puar wrote:
Freeza9000 wrote:
puar wrote:
were not talking about the real world were talking about the dragon ball world. in which the planet is united and there are no wars
You mean the numerous amounts of criminal organizations, thieves, robbers, bandits galore that attempted world domination? This is more evident on Future Trunks's crapsack world where one of them nearly drove humanity to the brink of extinction.
criminals will allwayes be existed. the planet earth of dragonball is a peacefull planet without any wars
Yet Planet Earth in Universe 6 was turned into a charred toxic wasteland by the idiotic wars of Earthlings.

Perhaps, you wanted to say that it is unlikely that the Earthlings of Universe 7 will fight amongst each other (and even then, think about the Androids created by a mad Earthling).
still. a smart supreme kai will not judge all mortals because of few.
Please, name me a smart Supreme Kai.

You can't. All Supreme Kais are fools who let mortals do whatever they please and use the excuse 'It's the God of Destruction's job to deal with criminals'. Too bad the Gods of Destruction couldn't care about the laws of the Gods even if they wanted to and just follow their whims. Then you have Sidra, who has the courage of a potato and shouldn't have got the position in the first place.

Zamasu is the first Supreme Kai who actually -TRIED- to enforce the laws of the Gods and restore -ORDER-, -PERFECTION-, in a Universe where it had come to the point that mortals could do whatever they wanted and get away with it.

You forget that Supreme Kais are -GODS of CREATION-, and mortals are their -CREATIONS-. So they have every right to punish an entire species should they deem it appropriate and necessary.
just like not all humans are evil because of few serial killers right?
It doesn't work like that. The Earthlings entered the domain of the Gods, they broke a law, and thus they were all guilty of this sin. There was no reason to keep them around after they committed such a heinous crime. Zamasu is a God, he has the right to judge over existence and do what is necessary to ensure the Universe's well-being. Plus, killing just Bulma and Trunks would've accomplished virtually nothing. There was the possibility that another Earthling scientist would come one day to build another Time Machine.

In addition, Black himself saw Earth as an 'ugly' world. He is likely referencing to the various cities that dot Earth's landscape, which are some kind of 'taint' upon the once-beautiful and pure nature of the world created by the Gods. I'm not surprised that Zamasu spared a portion of Earth where he occupied a local and serene cabin in lush woods, since he never wanted to destroy the planet Earth, only the foolish Earthlings that inhabit it. This is why Zamasu would partly hate the Tournament of Power, because they are actually destroying the losing Universes, which is something Zamasu would despise.
so that proves zamasu is an idiot.
Gowasu isn't an idiot? Shin? Beerus? They aren't idiots, right?
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:01 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:58 am

puar wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
puar wrote:
criminals will allwayes be existed. the planet earth of dragonball is a peacefull planet without any wars
Besides you know, when aliens, or mad scientists, or demons from other worlds decide to destroy the Earth and kill everything on it, as well as the entire universe.

In Trunks timeline, what do you think the Androids were? They were killing machines, made by humans, to conquer the entire planet. How does that not demonstrate Zamasu's believes about mortals?
still. a smart supreme kai will not judge all mortals because of few. just like not all humans are evil because of few serial killers right? so that proves zamasu is an idiot.
The point his trying to make is that it doesn't matter.

Zamasu came to his conclusions because he noticed that mortals had and always will have the capacity for violence and worse of all hubris.

Even the most good willed mortals are still capable of hubris. Trunks a mere mortal, defiled the taboo of the god and time travelled. Goku, who is by himself a harmless idiot, was a mortal that not only surpassed Zamasu in raw power and who humiliated him in battle, but he had also obtained the ki of the Gods. Its the mere fact that mortals are capable of doing these things, that incited him to go to extreme measures to rid himself of them.

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by puar » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:49 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
puar wrote:
Freeza9000 wrote: You mean the numerous amounts of criminal organizations, thieves, robbers, bandits galore that attempted world domination? This is more evident on Future Trunks's crapsack world where one of them nearly drove humanity to the brink of extinction.
criminals will allwayes be existed. the planet earth of dragonball is a peacefull planet without any wars
Yet Planet Earth in Universe 6 was turned into a charred toxic wasteland by the idiotic wars of Earthlings.

Perhaps, you wanted to say that it is unlikely that the Earthlings of Universe 7 will fight amongst each other (and even then, think about the Androids created by a mad Earthling).
still. a smart supreme kai will not judge all mortals because of few.
Please, name me a smart Supreme Kai.

You can't. All Supreme Kais are fools who let mortals do whatever they please and use the excuse 'It's the God of Destruction's job to deal with criminals'. Too bad the Gods of Destruction couldn't care about the laws of the Gods even if they wanted to and just follow their whims. Then you have Sidra, who has the courage of a potato and shouldn't have got the position in the first place.

Zamasu is the first Supreme Kai who actually -TRIED- to enforce the laws of the Gods and restore -ORDER-, -PERFECTION-, in a Universe where it had come to the point that mortals could do whatever they wanted and get away with it.

You forget that Supreme Kais are -GODS of CREATION-, and mortals are their -CREATIONS-. So they have every right to punish an entire species should they deem it appropriate and necessary.
just like not all humans are evil because of few serial killers right?
It doesn't work like that. The Earthlings entered the domain of the Gods, they broke a law, and thus they were all guilty of this sin. There was no reason to keep them around after they committed such a heinous crime. Zamasu is a God, he has the right to judge over existence and do what is necessary to ensure the Universe's well-being. Plus, killing just Bulma and Trunks would've accomplished virtually nothing. There was the possibility that another Earthling scientist would come one day to build another Time Machine.

In addition, Black himself saw Earth as an 'ugly' world. He is likely referencing to the various cities that dot Earth's landscape, which are some kind of 'taint' upon the once-beautiful and pure nature of the world created by the Gods. I'm not surprised that Zamasu spared a portion of Earth where he occupied a local and serene cabin in lush woods, since he never wanted to destroy the planet Earth, only the foolish Earthlings that inhabit it. This is why Zamasu would partly hate the Tournament of Power, because they are actually destroying the losing Universes, which is something Zamasu would despise.
so that proves zamasu is an idiot.
Gowasu isn't an idiot? Shin? Beerus? They aren't idiots, right?
you take this cartoon too seariously dont you think?

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:55 am

you take this cartoon too seariously dont you think?
Not really, it's just the average Dragon Ball fan is not accustomed to a complex, elaborate and unique character such as Zamasu.

Zamasu is not Frieza. Zamasu is not Cell. Zamasu is not Buu. Zamasu is not <Insert any other villain in Dragon Ball>. You are not going to get away by simply saying 'Zamasu is evil because he killed people, period'.

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:58 pm

I’d put him on the same level as Baby. He’s a decent enough villain, but he could’ve been so much more interesting if they really went through the effort of actually making him a morally grey antagonist, as opposed to your typical megalomaniac.

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:08 am

decent on paper but needed more time to be made better. We didnt see him progress so much as complete jump from one end to the other

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:16 am

puar wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
puar wrote:
criminals will allwayes be existed. the planet earth of dragonball is a peacefull planet without any wars
Besides you know, when aliens, or mad scientists, or demons from other worlds decide to destroy the Earth and kill everything on it, as well as the entire universe.

In Trunks timeline, what do you think the Androids were? They were killing machines, made by humans, to conquer the entire planet. How does that not demonstrate Zamasu's believes about mortals?
still. a smart supreme kai will not judge all mortals because of few. just like not all humans are evil because of few serial killers right? so that proves zamasu is an idiot.
It is the potential for evil that Zamasu acts on. Think Nick Fury in Winter soldier. Sometimes it can be too late, especially with godlike power.

Zamasu was harsh, but ultimately he has a fair and logical point. And if Black can take over his body or ginyu can body swap him, imagine the damage to the multiverse god level mortals could do.

The kais sit on their thumbs doing nothing. If killing a few spares all of creation from Zeno executing EVERYTHING TO DUST, then Zamasu was going down a sensible path

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by puar » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:17 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
you take this cartoon too seariously dont you think?
Not really, it's just the average Dragon Ball fan is not accustomed to a complex, elaborate and unique character such as Zamasu.

Zamasu is not Frieza. Zamasu is not Cell. Zamasu is not Buu. Zamasu is not <Insert any other villain in Dragon Ball>. You are not going to get away by simply saying 'Zamasu is evil because he killed people, period'.
but you talk like you are zamasu yourself. you litterly justify his agenda and think he was right when he wasent. you take it too far. I've seen some of your other posts. you litterly worship the charecter and talk like him. he is a weak vilian in an average shonen anime after all. and you take it even more far when you claim he wasent evil. lol. so killing all mortals in the universe isnt evil. yeha right

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:49 am

you litterly justify his agenda and think he was right when he wasent.
It was his duty and right to judge over existence and act accordingly. Mortals are not equals to the Gods. Mortals are just a flawed and defective creation of the Gods. Obviously, from our point of view (as we are Humans), Zamasu is evil, because he laid waste to entire civilizations. But from a God's point of view, mortals are not nearly as important as we think. Just think of Zen-Oh and the Grand Priest, who tower above all existence, and thus don't care about the billions of mortal lives they are dooming.
when you claim he wasent evil
Yet i wrote this:
Yes, Zamasu was twisted and evil
Toriyama and Toei were smart with Zamasu. He is designed to be a controversial character. He is not like Frieza, Cell and Buu, who have little to no redeeming qualities. Zamasu was a sadist, Zamasu was evil (as he ultimately went mad and became an unstoppable malevolent 4th dimensional being), Zamasu ultimately fell into madness. -BUT-, mortals themselves were also flawed, they committed various sins and were getting too bold and disrespectful with the Gods. Zamasu himself had a basis upon which he built the Zero Mortals Plan, as he observed countless examples of mortals acting irrationally and foolishly. This is the beauty of the character: he did awful things, but he saw those things as necessary acts to build a better Universe. His ideals were not so illogical and he did have valid concerns towards mortals. He is brilliantly written to be a grey character. Ultimately, his goal was to enforce the laws of the Gods, a task neither the Supreme Kais nor the Gods of Destruction were taking seriously.

If Zamasu is evil because he destroyed entire civilizations, then so is Beerus. Remember when he destroyed an entire planet, -COUNTLESS INNOCENT LIVES-, because he didn't like the food that was made in that planet? But Beerus is not evil, right? He abuses his position as God of Destruction to follow his whims and not do his job, yet somehow he is better than Zamasu, someone who had a strong sense of justice and actually cared about the well-being of the Universe. Ok, Zamasu is evil because he murdered billions, then what about the Gods of Destruction, whose job is to -destroy billions-?

Of course, we see Zamasu as evil for murdering billions of Humans because we ourselves are Humans. But from a God's perspective, murdering Humans is not an 'evil' act: it is the duty of a God. Because if those Humans are a failed creation and are only harming the Universe, then they have to be removed forcefully. The best example of this is the Tournament of Power, which is justified by a God's perspective as it is a necessary act to get rid of the weak and worthless Universes, but obviously the mortal characters see it as a heinous act (since Zen-Oh and the Grand Priest are erasing billions of innocents). Gods and mortals don't think the same way. What we mortals see as 'evil', the Gods might not see it the same way, because they are simply superior.

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by puar » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:35 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
you litterly justify his agenda and think he was right when he wasent.
It was his duty and right to judge over existence and act accordingly. Mortals are not equals to the Gods. Mortals are just a flawed and defective creation of the Gods. Obviously, from our point of view (as we are Humans), Zamasu is evil, because he laid waste to entire civilizations. But from a God's point of view, mortals are not nearly as important as we think. Just think of Zen-Oh and the Grand Priest, who tower above all existence, and thus don't care about the billions of mortal lives they are dooming.
when you claim he wasent evil
Yet i wrote this:
Yes, Zamasu was twisted and evil
Toriyama and Toei were smart with Zamasu. He is designed to be a controversial character. He is not like Frieza, Cell and Buu, who have little to no redeeming qualities. Zamasu was a sadist, Zamasu was evil (as he ultimately went mad and became an unstoppable malevolent 4th dimensional being), Zamasu ultimately fell into madness. -BUT-, mortals themselves were also flawed, they committed various sins and were getting too bold and disrespectful with the Gods. Zamasu himself had a basis upon which he built the Zero Mortals Plan, as he observed countless examples of mortals acting irrationally and foolishly. This is the beauty of the character: he did awful things, but he saw those things as necessary acts to build a better Universe. His ideals were not so illogical and he did have valid concerns towards mortals. He is brilliantly written to be a grey character. Ultimately, his goal was to enforce the laws of the Gods, a task neither the Supreme Kais nor the Gods of Destruction were taking seriously.

If Zamasu is evil because he destroyed entire civilizations, then so is Beerus. Remember when he destroyed an entire planet, -COUNTLESS INNOCENT LIVES-, because he didn't like the food that was made in that planet? But Beerus is not evil, right? He abuses his position as God of Destruction to follow his whims and not do his job, yet somehow he is better than Zamasu, someone who had a strong sense of justice and actually cared about the well-being of the Universe. Ok, Zamasu is evil because he murdered billions, then what about the Gods of Destruction, whose job is to -destroy billions-?

Of course, we see Zamasu as evil for murdering billions of Humans because we ourselves are Humans. But from a God's perspective, murdering Humans is not an 'evil' act: it is the duty of a God. Because if those Humans are a failed creation and are only harming the Universe, then they have to be removed forcefully. The best example of this is the Tournament of Power, which is justified by a God's perspective as it is a necessary act to get rid of the weak and worthless Universes, but obviously the mortal characters see it as a heinous act (since Zen-Oh and the Grand Priest are erasing billions of innocents). Gods and mortals don't think the same way. What we mortals see as 'evil', the Gods might not see it the same way, because they are simply superior.
this is going nowhere. you clearly dont get my point. the thread is about zamasu as a charecter. zamasu as a charecter is a faliture. why? well. being a supreme kai means he suppose to be much smarter then a mortal. yet he isnt.why? first trunks planet isnt in his universe at all. second. he saw that the barbary cave man were primitive and upon that he decides to eradicate all mortals with no exeption. it dosent make any sense. zamasu isnt very bright for a supreme kai. if he was smart he would have undertood that not all mortals are the same. just because hes mad at trunks for the time machine dosent explain why he destroyed all of humanity. trunks familly clearly above all humans in terms of technology. humans did not really invented the time machine. bulma did. no other humans besides trunks actually travel in time. so why zamasu destroyed all humans who are reletivly peacefull creatures in the dragon ball universe? why would zamasu want to destroy all the mortals because some of them are bad and not just destroy the bad ones?

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by Torturephile » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:53 pm

puar wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
you litterly justify his agenda and think he was right when he wasent.
It was his duty and right to judge over existence and act accordingly. Mortals are not equals to the Gods. Mortals are just a flawed and defective creation of the Gods. Obviously, from our point of view (as we are Humans), Zamasu is evil, because he laid waste to entire civilizations. But from a God's point of view, mortals are not nearly as important as we think. Just think of Zen-Oh and the Grand Priest, who tower above all existence, and thus don't care about the billions of mortal lives they are dooming.
when you claim he wasent evil
Yet i wrote this:
Yes, Zamasu was twisted and evil
Toriyama and Toei were smart with Zamasu. He is designed to be a controversial character. He is not like Frieza, Cell and Buu, who have little to no redeeming qualities. Zamasu was a sadist, Zamasu was evil (as he ultimately went mad and became an unstoppable malevolent 4th dimensional being), Zamasu ultimately fell into madness. -BUT-, mortals themselves were also flawed, they committed various sins and were getting too bold and disrespectful with the Gods. Zamasu himself had a basis upon which he built the Zero Mortals Plan, as he observed countless examples of mortals acting irrationally and foolishly. This is the beauty of the character: he did awful things, but he saw those things as necessary acts to build a better Universe. His ideals were not so illogical and he did have valid concerns towards mortals. He is brilliantly written to be a grey character. Ultimately, his goal was to enforce the laws of the Gods, a task neither the Supreme Kais nor the Gods of Destruction were taking seriously.

If Zamasu is evil because he destroyed entire civilizations, then so is Beerus. Remember when he destroyed an entire planet, -COUNTLESS INNOCENT LIVES-, because he didn't like the food that was made in that planet? But Beerus is not evil, right? He abuses his position as God of Destruction to follow his whims and not do his job, yet somehow he is better than Zamasu, someone who had a strong sense of justice and actually cared about the well-being of the Universe. Ok, Zamasu is evil because he murdered billions, then what about the Gods of Destruction, whose job is to -destroy billions-?

Of course, we see Zamasu as evil for murdering billions of Humans because we ourselves are Humans. But from a God's perspective, murdering Humans is not an 'evil' act: it is the duty of a God. Because if those Humans are a failed creation and are only harming the Universe, then they have to be removed forcefully. The best example of this is the Tournament of Power, which is justified by a God's perspective as it is a necessary act to get rid of the weak and worthless Universes, but obviously the mortal characters see it as a heinous act (since Zen-Oh and the Grand Priest are erasing billions of innocents). Gods and mortals don't think the same way. What we mortals see as 'evil', the Gods might not see it the same way, because they are simply superior.
this is going nowhere. you clearly dont get my point. the thread is about zamasu as a charecter. zamasu as a charecter is a faliture. why? well. being a supreme kai means he suppose to be much smarter then a mortal. yet he isnt.why? first trunks planet isnt in his universe at all. second. he saw that the barbary cave man were primitive and upon that he decides to eradicate all mortals with no exeption. it dosent make any sense. zamasu isnt very bright for a supreme kai. if he was smart he would have undertood that not all mortals are the same. just because hes mad at trunks for the time machine dosent explain why he destroyed all of humanity. trunks familly clearly above all humans in terms of technology. humans did not really invented the time machine. bulma did. no other humans besides trunks actually travel in time. so why zamasu destroyed all humans who are reletivly peacefull creatures in the dragon ball universe? why would zamasu want to destroy all the mortals because some of them are bad and not just destroy the bad ones?
Given the track record of some deities in the series, I'd say being smart is a plus rather than a requirement.

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:13 pm

first trunks planet isnt in his universe at all
In the Future timeline, Shin and Beerus had been killed by Dabura and Babidi, so effectively there was no central authority left in Universe 7.
he saw that the barbary cave man were primitive and upon that he decides to eradicate all mortals with no exeption. it dosent make any sense
No, Zamasu himself tells Gowasu that he has already witnessed countless examples of mortals acting in a foolish way, so the Babarians were definitely not the first instance he saw of mortals behaving in a disgusting and heinous way.
zamasu isnt very bright for a supreme kai
Even though he as just an apprentice, he was revered as a genius even by the Supreme Kais.
if he was smart he would have undertood that not all mortals are the same
Why? Again, you are using the basic logic of a Human. For a [true] God, Humans are not important, their lives do not matter in the grand scheme of things, they are just creations of the Gods.
just because hes mad at trunks for the time machine dosent explain why he destroyed all of humanity
Actually, the reasons behind this choice have already been explained, so i will not repeat myself.
trunks familly clearly above all humans in terms of technology
Brilliant scientists the likes of Dr. Gero would disagree with you.
humans did not really invented the time machine. bulma did.
But... Bulma is a Human.
no other humans besides trunks actually travel in time
Goku, Vegeta and Bulma also travelled in time. The fact is, it was likely that another Earthling would one day build another time machine. Since it is nigh-impossible that Bulma would be the only Human in Earth's history that would be able to build a time machine.
so why zamasu destroyed all humans who are reletivly peacefull creatures in the dragon ball universe?
Yet the Humans of Universe 6 turned Earth into a charred toxic wasteland because of their idiotic wars.
why would zamasu want to destroy all the mortals because some of them are bad and not just destroy the bad ones?
For the same reason -every- being (not just the weak ones) are at risk of erasure in the Tournament of Power.

Mortals are mere insects compared to the Gods. Episode 65, with its visuals, symbolism, and title made it very clear: Zamasu is a God. He towers above existence. Therefore, he has the right to decide what to do of the Gods' creations (Humans). Black explains this very well to Trunks in a flashback. He watched carefully the development and acts of Humans, and decided that the Universe is better off without Humans. He remarks that he comes from the heavens, so from a much higher place than Trunks: therefore, a mere mortal like Trunks will never comprehend Black's motives and ideals. Black finds Humans unnecessary, he thinks they are a failure, and he has statistics and facts that confirm this. So he thinks they should be destroyed. This is the same logic of Zen-Oh, who thinks the weak Universes are unnecessary and thus he will destroy them.

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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:49 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
you take this cartoon too seariously dont you think?
Not really, it's just the average Dragon Ball fan is not accustomed to a complex, elaborate and unique character such as Zamasu.

Zamasu is not Frieza. Zamasu is not Cell. Zamasu is not Buu. Zamasu is not <Insert any other villain in Dragon Ball>. You are not going to get away by simply saying 'Zamasu is evil because he killed people, period'.

I don't really want to debate it but I'll say nothing you've said has convinced me I'm wrong about Zamasu being a flat, boring illogical character.
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Re: General Consensus on Zamasu's character?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:12 pm

GodKaio-Ken wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
you take this cartoon too seariously dont you think?
Not really, it's just the average Dragon Ball fan is not accustomed to a complex, elaborate and unique character such as Zamasu.

Zamasu is not Frieza. Zamasu is not Cell. Zamasu is not Buu. Zamasu is not <Insert any other villain in Dragon Ball>. You are not going to get away by simply saying 'Zamasu is evil because he killed people, period'.

I don't really want to debate it but I'll say nothing you've said has convinced me I'm wrong about Zamasu being a flat, boring illogical character.
You can live in denial, thankfully the majority of the community hasn't adopted your mindset.

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