Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by Jigurashi » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:40 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:Yes, he still has no discernible character. Apparently he has some in the manga but as of now he's just a less annoying Broli. Yeah they could give him more after the tournament but I still think they're behind on giving Hit his character.

Also there's no mystery here. nothing has been teased or suggested.
You mean besides the fact he has a wish? We don't even know what he wants to wish for in either version of DBS at the moment. Certainly seems like a tease to me.

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by Hawk9211 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:30 am

Sykin wrote:He's proof that the large portion of the Dragon Ball fandom can't handle a mysterious character. Why is he so strong? What's his background story? What could he possibly want to wish for? It's not that Jiren doesn't have a personality, it's that his personality itself is a mystery. It's pretty obvious that they're going to expand upon him or else they wouldn't have even brought up the fact that he had a wish. I don't really understand why people expect him to be as developed as someone that's been around for 20 years when he hasn't even been on screen for an entire hour. If the ToP ends and he's left the way he currently is? Okay, then I'll complain. As of now, his character arc is barely starting the way I see it.

Goku Black only worked as a mystery because it was more clear-cut one.Also just because it was Goku. Something weird was happening with an established character and that drew a lot of attention and thinking towards it. Something out of the ordinary is happening with a new character but because he wasn't already established, people aren't looking into it as much. I'm by no means saying that Jiren is perfect or anything as he most certainly could have been handled a lot better. I guess we'll see, though.
Come on,since when does dragon ball get into flashbacks and stuff,people are speculating based on previous material.At most we might get a throw away line.

Personally speaking, the only thing anime jiren has going for him is that he does not care about goku and he is not boasting. Otherwise he has personality of generic db villain and his moveset is pretty generic too.
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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by Akyon » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:10 am

Sykin wrote:He's proof that the large portion of the Dragon Ball fandom can't handle a mysterious character. Why is he so strong? What's his background story? What could he possibly want to wish for? It's not that Jiren doesn't have a personality, it's that his personality itself is a mystery. It's pretty obvious that they're going to expand upon him or else they wouldn't have even brought up the fact that he had a wish. I don't really understand why people expect him to be as developed as someone that's been around for 20 years when he hasn't even been on screen for an entire hour. If the ToP ends and he's left the way he currently is? Okay, then I'll complain. As of now, his character arc is barely starting the way I see it.

Goku Black only worked as a mystery because it was more clear-cut one.Also just because it was Goku. Something weird was happening with an established character and that drew a lot of attention and thinking towards it. Something out of the ordinary is happening with a new character but because he wasn't already established, people aren't looking into it as much. I'm by no means saying that Jiren is perfect or anything as he most certainly could have been handled a lot better. I guess we'll see, though.
The problem with being a mysterious character is generally speaking their motivations need to be mysterious in order to garner that initial interest.

Jiren has been doing some weird stuff(meditating) but his indifference to everything around him is no more bizarre behavior than everyone else in the ToP.

Characters showing off, characters pointlessly letting the opponents get away, characters forgetting what's at stake and turning into generic villains by bullying weaker foes instead of just tossing them out...this entire tournament is full of people acting oddly.

Frieza right now is a mysterious character. We know he has a plan, but what does it entail? What is his wish going to be? How will he realise his ambitions? Why did he help the others? Is he going to betray them during the tournament or after?

Hit was mysterious when we first met him and he's honestly done this concept better. Hell, Beerus did it better when he first appeared and we couldn't tell what his motivations were.

Jiren sadly is coming off as less 'how mysterious' and more 'poorly fleshed out' as of this time of writing. We should have gotten a few hints at his ambitions in order to draw our interest to the mystery that is his character.

To be fair now he's finally forced to move off his ass maybe he can garner more intrigue as a character rather than feel like an inevitable punch up we have to wait for.
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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:01 am

My brain works pretty differently compared to the vocal majority around here.

I find that the huge contrast of "no personality" works in Jiren's favour when he's compared to the franchise's traditional antagonists. Freeza, Goku Black, etc., most were megalomaniacal villains that love how evil they are. This flamboyancy is part of why we love them so much.

However, Jiren is the exact opposite of that. Calm. Composed. Not very talkative. Doesn't seem to really hold anything in high regard. Not to mention that never before has an antagonist so vastly dwarfed the protagonists in the franchise, save for when Beerus was first introduced. Because he's shown little of his cards, all we're left with is this foreboding and ominous atmosphere surrounding the character's power, just how monstrous it is. Even though the Hakaishin as a whole also possess this monstrous amount of power, they all have jovial and colourful expressiveness that lessens the impact of their massive power level.

But Jiren? Because he doesn't go on rants or taunts the heroes, or really even acknowledges them as anything more than an obstacle, his power becomes that much more menacing. This is a guy you won't be trading banter with, a guy who can't be broken. He's the unstoppable force AND the immovable object, and that makes him so much more intimidating. If Jiren has his sights set on you, you're done. This guy isn't a character. He's a horror movie monster: unstoppable, terrifying, and something that cannot be reasoned with as it hunts you down. And the best part? He's not even the evil one in this whole scenario.

By all rights, he shouldn't work. But for me personally, this contrast to antagonists of old, this foreboding atmosphere surrounding his no-nonsense power, is why he works so well as an antagonist for me. It's also why the manga version has done nothing to impress me, because he just doesn't have this buildup of how monstrous this single guy must be.

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:26 am

Freeza, Goku Black, etc., most were megalomaniacal villains that love how evil they are. This flamboyancy is part of why we love them so much.
The whole point of Zamasu/Goku Black's mentality is that he didn't see himself as an evil individual, but as the Hero, and viewed his deeds as necessary to ensure the safety and peace of the world of Gods.
Not to mention that never before has an antagonist so vastly dwarfed the protagonists in the franchise, save for when Beerus was first introduced
And when Black and Zamasu utterly defeated the protagonists twice. Or also when Zamasu merged with the Universe.
This is a guy you won't be trading banter with, a guy who can't be broken.
But isn't that exactly what he did in the last episode? Mocking U7's team by saying their victory against Anilaza will be the last one in their lives, taunting Goku by telling him that he will never defeat him in combat.
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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:36 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Freeza, Goku Black, etc., most were megalomaniacal villains that love how evil they are. This flamboyancy is part of why we love them so much.
The whole point of Zamasu/Goku Black's mentality is that he didn't see himself as an evil individual, but as the Hero, and viewed his deeds as necessary to ensure the safety and peace of the world of Gods.
Not to mention that never before has an antagonist so vastly dwarfed the protagonists in the franchise, save for when Beerus was first introduced
And when Black and Zamasu utterly defeated the protagonists twice. Or also when Zamasu merged with the Universe.
This is a guy you won't be trading banter with, a guy who can't be broken.
But isn't that exactly what he did in the last episode? Mocking U7's team by saying their victory against Anilaza will be the last one in their lives, taunting Goku by telling him that he will never defeat him in combat.
With Jiren, the dwarfing is much more foreboding, to me at least, because of how they've built it up. This was a guy whose power was spoken of in a tone that says "Goku, you stand no chance whatsoever". And boy did the anime deliver when it finally paid off that buildup. Jiren just DEMOLISHED Goku, in a way that shows the difference between the two.

Also, notice that Jiren has only ever traded banter either before a fight begins, or when the fight is about to conclude. With Jiren, I can seriously believe him when he says such things. As such, it came off more as him stating what's obvious, to me personally anyways. He's absolutely sure Goku and Universe 7 are gonna lose, so he states the obvious. And really, with how Jiren has been presented, it's not that hard to believe, either.

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:54 pm

Jigurashi wrote:
RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:Yes, he still has no discernible character. Apparently he has some in the manga but as of now he's just a less annoying Broli. Yeah they could give him more after the tournament but I still think they're behind on giving Hit his character.

Also there's no mystery here. nothing has been teased or suggested.
You mean besides the fact he has a wish? We don't even know what he wants to wish for in either version of DBS at the moment. Certainly seems like a tease to me.
That again, was teased only in the manga, it was never done in the anime. Since it wasn't teased in the anime, why should we the audience be invested in learning his wish? The manga at least tries in this regard to establish the mystery behind his wish, so at least we the audience are invested in learning what it is, but how does this affect the manga counter-part?

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by Pannaliciour » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:27 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:My brain works pretty differently compared to the vocal majority around here.

I find that the huge contrast of "no personality" works in Jiren's favour when he's compared to the franchise's traditional antagonists. Freeza, Goku Black, etc., most were megalomaniacal villains that love how evil they are. This flamboyancy is part of why we love them so much.

However, Jiren is the exact opposite of that. Calm. Composed. Not very talkative. Doesn't seem to really hold anything in high regard. Not to mention that never before has an antagonist so vastly dwarfed the protagonists in the franchise, save for when Beerus was first introduced. Because he's shown little of his cards, all we're left with is this foreboding and ominous atmosphere surrounding the character's power, just how monstrous it is. Even though the Hakaishin as a whole also possess this monstrous amount of power, they all have jovial and colourful expressiveness that lessens the impact of their massive power level.

But Jiren? Because he doesn't go on rants or taunts the heroes, or really even acknowledges them as anything more than an obstacle, his power becomes that much more menacing. This is a guy you won't be trading banter with, a guy who can't be broken. He's the unstoppable force AND the immovable object, and that makes him so much more intimidating. If Jiren has his sights set on you, you're done. This guy isn't a character. He's a horror movie monster: unstoppable, terrifying, and something that cannot be reasoned with as it hunts you down. And the best part? He's not even the evil one in this whole scenario.

By all rights, he shouldn't work. But for me personally, this contrast to antagonists of old, this foreboding atmosphere surrounding his no-nonsense power, is why he works so well as an antagonist for me. It's also why the manga version has done nothing to impress me, because he just doesn't have this buildup of how monstrous this single guy must be.
You know, I am with you on this one! People crying about this no personality thing. I like his attitude. How many of this villains has dragon ball had? Plain and simple, very strong no talky and NOT evil? We don't need a 10 out of 10 rating for his story; because its a tournament of power saga. They have to hit each other. His character fits this saga!

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by Jigurashi » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:41 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Jigurashi wrote:
RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:Yes, he still has no discernible character. Apparently he has some in the manga but as of now he's just a less annoying Broli. Yeah they could give him more after the tournament but I still think they're behind on giving Hit his character.

Also there's no mystery here. nothing has been teased or suggested.
You mean besides the fact he has a wish? We don't even know what he wants to wish for in either version of DBS at the moment. Certainly seems like a tease to me.
That again, was teased only in the manga, it was never done in the anime. Since it wasn't teased in the anime, why should we the audience be invested in learning his wish? The manga at least tries in this regard to establish the mystery behind his wish, so at least we the audience are invested in learning what it is, but how does this affect the manga counter-part?
Because it was teased in the anime? Toppo straight up said as Jiren was walking towards Goku in 109 that Jiren is fighting for a wish he wants to make with the Super Dragon Balls. I'm invested because they've teased it. Him having a wish was mentioned in both versions.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:My brain works pretty differently compared to the vocal majority around here.

I find that the huge contrast of "no personality" works in Jiren's favour when he's compared to the franchise's traditional antagonists. Freeza, Goku Black, etc., most were megalomaniacal villains that love how evil they are. This flamboyancy is part of why we love them so much.

However, Jiren is the exact opposite of that. Calm. Composed. Not very talkative. Doesn't seem to really hold anything in high regard. Not to mention that never before has an antagonist so vastly dwarfed the protagonists in the franchise, save for when Beerus was first introduced. Because he's shown little of his cards, all we're left with is this foreboding and ominous atmosphere surrounding the character's power, just how monstrous it is. Even though the Hakaishin as a whole also possess this monstrous amount of power, they all have jovial and colourful expressiveness that lessens the impact of their massive power level.

But Jiren? Because he doesn't go on rants or taunts the heroes, or really even acknowledges them as anything more than an obstacle, his power becomes that much more menacing. This is a guy you won't be trading banter with, a guy who can't be broken. He's the unstoppable force AND the immovable object, and that makes him so much more intimidating. If Jiren has his sights set on you, you're done. This guy isn't a character. He's a horror movie monster: unstoppable, terrifying, and something that cannot be reasoned with as it hunts you down. And the best part? He's not even the evil one in this whole scenario.

By all rights, he shouldn't work. But for me personally, this contrast to antagonists of old, this foreboding atmosphere surrounding his no-nonsense power, is why he works so well as an antagonist for me. It's also why the manga version has done nothing to impress me, because he just doesn't have this buildup of how monstrous this single guy must be.
This is a big reason I like the character and feel he's playing his role well.

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by Chuquita » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:55 pm

You know what would make him an instant villain to Gokû yet hero to everyone else? If Jiren's wish is for multi-universal peace. An existence without any strong guys to fight would be anemia to Gokû.
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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by Jigurashi » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:35 am

Chuquita wrote:You know what would make him an instant villain to Gokû yet hero to everyone else? If Jiren's wish is for multi-universal peace. An existence without any strong guys to fight would be anemia to Gokû.
Goku'd probably go insane from it lol.

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:52 am

Jigurashi wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Jigurashi wrote: You mean besides the fact he has a wish? We don't even know what he wants to wish for in either version of DBS at the moment. Certainly seems like a tease to me.
That again, was teased only in the manga, it was never done in the anime. Since it wasn't teased in the anime, why should we the audience be invested in learning his wish? The manga at least tries in this regard to establish the mystery behind his wish, so at least we the audience are invested in learning what it is, but how does this affect the manga counter-part?
Because it was teased in the anime? Toppo straight up said as Jiren was walking towards Goku in 109 that Jiren is fighting for a wish he wants to make with the Super Dragon Balls. I'm invested because they've teased it. Him having a wish was mentioned in both versions.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:My brain works pretty differently compared to the vocal majority around here.

I find that the huge contrast of "no personality" works in Jiren's favour when he's compared to the franchise's traditional antagonists. Freeza, Goku Black, etc., most were megalomaniacal villains that love how evil they are. This flamboyancy is part of why we love them so much.

However, Jiren is the exact opposite of that. Calm. Composed. Not very talkative. Doesn't seem to really hold anything in high regard. Not to mention that never before has an antagonist so vastly dwarfed the protagonists in the franchise, save for when Beerus was first introduced. Because he's shown little of his cards, all we're left with is this foreboding and ominous atmosphere surrounding the character's power, just how monstrous it is. Even though the Hakaishin as a whole also possess this monstrous amount of power, they all have jovial and colourful expressiveness that lessens the impact of their massive power level.

But Jiren? Because he doesn't go on rants or taunts the heroes, or really even acknowledges them as anything more than an obstacle, his power becomes that much more menacing. This is a guy you won't be trading banter with, a guy who can't be broken. He's the unstoppable force AND the immovable object, and that makes him so much more intimidating. If Jiren has his sights set on you, you're done. This guy isn't a character. He's a horror movie monster: unstoppable, terrifying, and something that cannot be reasoned with as it hunts you down. And the best part? He's not even the evil one in this whole scenario.

By all rights, he shouldn't work. But for me personally, this contrast to antagonists of old, this foreboding atmosphere surrounding his no-nonsense power, is why he works so well as an antagonist for me. It's also why the manga version has done nothing to impress me, because he just doesn't have this buildup of how monstrous this single guy must be.
This is a big reason I like the character and feel he's playing his role well.
A single one off line can't establish a mystery for the audience to care about, especially if that one off line is never bought up again, or has anything to establish its meaning.

Also, I think you guys are forgetting how monstrously powerful Freeza was in comparison to everyone else on Namek, and Freeza did a far better job of making himself threatening than Jiren did. Also half the stuff said above is untrue, taunting the heroes, thats literally one of his only identifiable traits. No non-sense, then why does he always mess around with his foes and fail to eliminate most of them unless the plot demands it? As far as personality and effectiveness goes, Hit has Jiren beat pretty soundly in these areas. In terms of presence and atmosphere, literally every major villain in Z possessed this, and had far stronger more engaging personalities than the one note Jiren.

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:48 am

I remember when they were building up the Goku vs Jiren special, being subtly impressed with the way they'd manage to create such hype and drama around a fight with a character that really hadn't earned it at that point. I mean, everyone was talking about it on social media, it was being promoted heavily by the official parties both in Japan and abroad. Funimation hosted that pre-fight show, like it was some sort of wrestling match. I remember at the time thinking a) I want more "big" Dragon Ball fights to be promoted like wrestling events, that's a good marketing strategy and b) how cringy is this all going to be when the special fails to live up to the hype?

Thankfully it didn't fail, or else Jiren would've ended up being seen as the new "Poochy" of Dragon Ball. And while Ultra Instinct was THE big talking point of the special, Jiren still left a mark, even on those who were sceptical. While there's plenty of criticism to be levelled at the character and how he's been written, I feel like they did a damn good job hyping him up if nothing else.

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by Jigurashi » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:54 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Jigurashi wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: That again, was teased only in the manga, it was never done in the anime. Since it wasn't teased in the anime, why should we the audience be invested in learning his wish? The manga at least tries in this regard to establish the mystery behind his wish, so at least we the audience are invested in learning what it is, but how does this affect the manga counter-part?
Because it was teased in the anime? Toppo straight up said as Jiren was walking towards Goku in 109 that Jiren is fighting for a wish he wants to make with the Super Dragon Balls. I'm invested because they've teased it. Him having a wish was mentioned in both versions.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:My brain works pretty differently compared to the vocal majority around here.

I find that the huge contrast of "no personality" works in Jiren's favour when he's compared to the franchise's traditional antagonists. Freeza, Goku Black, etc., most were megalomaniacal villains that love how evil they are. This flamboyancy is part of why we love them so much.

However, Jiren is the exact opposite of that. Calm. Composed. Not very talkative. Doesn't seem to really hold anything in high regard. Not to mention that never before has an antagonist so vastly dwarfed the protagonists in the franchise, save for when Beerus was first introduced. Because he's shown little of his cards, all we're left with is this foreboding and ominous atmosphere surrounding the character's power, just how monstrous it is. Even though the Hakaishin as a whole also possess this monstrous amount of power, they all have jovial and colourful expressiveness that lessens the impact of their massive power level.

But Jiren? Because he doesn't go on rants or taunts the heroes, or really even acknowledges them as anything more than an obstacle, his power becomes that much more menacing. This is a guy you won't be trading banter with, a guy who can't be broken. He's the unstoppable force AND the immovable object, and that makes him so much more intimidating. If Jiren has his sights set on you, you're done. This guy isn't a character. He's a horror movie monster: unstoppable, terrifying, and something that cannot be reasoned with as it hunts you down. And the best part? He's not even the evil one in this whole scenario.

By all rights, he shouldn't work. But for me personally, this contrast to antagonists of old, this foreboding atmosphere surrounding his no-nonsense power, is why he works so well as an antagonist for me. It's also why the manga version has done nothing to impress me, because he just doesn't have this buildup of how monstrous this single guy must be.
This is a big reason I like the character and feel he's playing his role well.
A single one off line can't establish a mystery for the audience to care about, especially if that one off line is never bought up again, or has anything to establish its meaning.

Also, I think you guys are forgetting how monstrously powerful Freeza was in comparison to everyone else on Namek, and Freeza did a far better job of making himself threatening than Jiren did. Also half the stuff said above is untrue, taunting the heroes, thats literally one of his only identifiable traits. No non-sense, then why does he always mess around with his foes and fail to eliminate most of them unless the plot demands it? As far as personality and effectiveness goes, Hit has Jiren beat pretty soundly in these areas. In terms of presence and atmosphere, literally every major villain in Z possessed this, and had far stronger more engaging personalities than the one note Jiren.
I agree with most of that but nah. Cell was pretty damn lame. Cell felt more one-note than even Jiren.

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:05 pm

Chuquita wrote:You know what would make him an instant villain to Gokû yet hero to everyone else? If Jiren's wish is for multi-universal peace. An existence without any strong guys to fight would be anemia to Gokû.
Jiren would be even worse than The Dictator in Goku's eyes if he wished for that. :lol:

Jiren can't avoid the spotlight anymore, so the next handful of episodes should show us what anime Jiren is made of. Hit acted a lot like this too until he fought Goku and his real personality emerged.

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by Chuquita » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:01 pm

Jigurashi wrote:
Chuquita wrote:You know what would make him an instant villain to Gokû yet hero to everyone else? If Jiren's wish is for multi-universal peace. An existence without any strong guys to fight would be anemia to Gokû.
Goku'd probably go insane from it lol.
Goku's reaction to Jiren's wish if it does end up being for multi-universal peace would be amazing to watch, imo. :mrgreen:
My theories rarely come true, but man I hope this one's at least somewhere in the ballpark.
BlueBasilisk wrote:
Chuquita wrote:You know what would make him an instant villain to Gokû yet hero to everyone else? If Jiren's wish is for multi-universal peace. An existence without any strong guys to fight would be anemia to Gokû.
Jiren would be even worse than The Dictator in Goku's eyes if he wished for that. :lol:

Jiren can't avoid the spotlight anymore, so the next handful of episodes should show us what anime Jiren is made of. Hit acted a lot like this too until he fought Goku and his real personality emerged.
I don't know who The Dictator is (Character from Marvel? DC? Unless you're referring to dbz Movie 12?) but yes, I can imagine Goku being horrified at the thought of Jiren's wish coming true if it does end up being for multi-universal peace. :mrgreen:

Agreed; Jiren has to finally show his cards; he can't stall much longer. If he really is a guy who's moral code is the inverse of Goku's (as in Jiren wanting there to be no more dangerously strong bad guys vs Goku's desire to fight stronger and stronger opponents) he could get interesting for me.
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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:25 pm

Regarding Jiren’s potential wish, I could definitely see his manga counterpart wishing for something like peace across the multiverse, but as far as his anime self is concerned, he has so little character that I feel like his wish could be just about anything.

I think the main problem I have with the way the anime has portrayed Jiren so far is that it feels too much like a rehash of Hit, except as a superhero instead of an assassin. Making him the Dragon Ball equivalent of Superman would’ve made for the perfect foil to Goku. Then again, the ToP isn’t over yet, so maybe his personality will get fleshed out more going forward, but what little personality he’s shown so far makes him come across as standoffish.

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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:37 pm

Chuquita wrote: I don't know who The Dictator is (Character from Marvel? DC? Unless you're referring to dbz Movie 12?) but yes, I can imagine Goku being horrified at the thought of Jiren's wish coming true if it does end up being for multi-universal peace. :mrgreen:

Agreed; Jiren has to finally show his cards; he can't stall much longer. If he really is a guy who's moral code is the inverse of Goku's (as in Jiren wanting there to be no more dangerously strong bad guys vs Goku's desire to fight stronger and stronger opponents) he could get interesting for me.
Yeah, I was talking about the little Hitler knock-off from Fusion Reborn. :lol:

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The gr
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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by The gr » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:30 pm

Chuquita wrote:
Goku's reaction to Jiren's wish if it does end up being for multi-universal peace would be amazing to watch, imo. :mrgreen:
My theories rarely come true, but man I hope this one's at least somewhere in the ballpark.
This theory is more plausible for thisJiren,this sound like a fun idea to speculate on and it will make the dynamic of Goku and Jiren very exciting.

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Sykin
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Re: Do you think Toei botched Jiren?

Post by Sykin » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:38 pm

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