Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Professor Freeza
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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Professor Freeza » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:02 am

Better than the hapless manga.

Sure, there's odd stuffs all around. Like just take ToP. Why didnt U10 do better? Why didnt U3 eliminate ANYONE? Why didnt a non U7 Universe eliminate another universe?

But what is HAS done in scores is give moments. People complain about it being fanfictionish, but honestly, did you NOT get excited when you saw the UI KHH vs Kefla? Or a dream team u7 going against Aniraza? Average writing doesnt do that. It doesnt make you excited. Like RoF. or like Buu arc. Super did give us a lot of things.
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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Hawk9211 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:24 am

Professor Freeza wrote:Better than the hapless manga
How is this relevent to discussion?
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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Professor Freeza » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:31 am

Hawk9211 wrote:
Professor Freeza wrote:Better than the hapless manga
How is this relevent to discussion?

Edited

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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:50 am

Why didnt U10 do better?
It was remarked several times that intellect and strategy would be more important than sheer power in this Tournament (especially if you take the various rules estabilished by the Grand Priest into the equation), so Universe 10, who put much more focus on brute strength rather than intellect, was never going to get far. It's all Rumsshi's fault. If a team loses a match, it is the trainer who is blamed for the loss, not the players.
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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Ki Breaker » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:52 am

Lord Beerus wrote:As a whole? No. It's far too inconsistent. But there are enough well written episodes (in my opinion) to give me the incentive to keep following the show under the pretense of, "They've shown they can give really good episode on several occasions, so I'll stick around for now."
This is what I go with as well..
Super the anime is an absolute mess most of the time but it's also a total delight to watch sometimes..
Also, it's rewatch value is almost zilch, so there's that..
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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Hawk9211 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:55 am

Professor Freeza wrote:Better than the hapless manga.

Sure, there's odd stuffs all around. Like just take ToP. Why didnt U10 do better? Why didnt U3 eliminate ANYONE? Why didnt a non U7 Universe eliminate another universe?

But what is HAS done in scores is give moments. People complain about it being fanfictionish, but honestly, did you NOT get excited when you saw the UI KHH vs Kefla? Or a dream team u7 going against Aniraza? Average writing doesnt do that. It doesnt make you excited. Like RoF. or like Buu arc. Super did give us a lot of things.
You ignored the bad moments.Sure,there are some great moments but there are also garbage moments like ribrianne,all the red herrings,fake tension etc.
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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Kataphrut » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:02 am

Due to the nature of the show, quality of writing tends to vary by episode. On the whole, I'd say as far as plotting, consistency and internal logic goes...Super is below average. I think where it shines is in the character writing. The reason why people enjoy the slice of life episodes, or some of the better ToP episodes is because of the way they explore characters, often in ways the original manga never did.

To give some examples, the early parts of the Future Trunks arc shone through the way they built atmosphere and mystery. The Great Saiyaman two-parter explored Gohan and Videl's relationship and what the Great Saiyaman meant to it, while subsequent ToP episodes featuring Gohan were about him trying to become a more well-rounded fighter and balance the extremes of his pacifistic scholar/prodigious warrior duality. Krillin's two-parter examined how being weak and powerless affected his mental wellbeing and how he learns to rise above it, with the payoff being shown in his ToP recruitment episode. Vegeta became a mentor to Cabba and Future Trunks, Master Roshi overcame his lecherousness, Freeza learned to be pragmatic. Some of these characters feel more interesting and well-rounded than ever before.

It's the up-side to the show being so light-hearted and lackadaisical. We can't get tension the way we used to in old Dragon Ball since everything has to work with the end of Z, but we can still get good character writing. It's part of the reason why I still enjoy the Tournament of Power despite numerous problems like atrocious pacing and inconsistency between episodes. It's just a big celebration of characters, showing off just about every cool transformation or forgotten technique while playing off character development and relationships established in both the original show and in Super itself.

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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Professor Freeza » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:07 am

Hawk9211 wrote:
Professor Freeza wrote:Better than the hapless manga.

Sure, there's odd stuffs all around. Like just take ToP. Why didnt U10 do better? Why didnt U3 eliminate ANYONE? Why didnt a non U7 Universe eliminate another universe?

But what is HAS done in scores is give moments. People complain about it being fanfictionish, but honestly, did you NOT get excited when you saw the UI KHH vs Kefla? Or a dream team u7 going against Aniraza? Average writing doesnt do that. It doesnt make you excited. Like RoF. or like Buu arc. Super did give us a lot of things.
You ignored the bad moments.Sure,there are some great moments but there are also garbage moments like ribrianne,all the red herrings,fake tension etc.

Ribrianne redeemed her by the end. SO much so that i was more upset with U2's erasure than U6's.

Red Herrings are part and parcel of good writing. But there does need to be some pay off. U4 one was tossed aside. But they can still make it up to end freeza's story on the highest possible note.

Fake Tension? Can you have real tension at all when you already know what's happening at EoZ? Its like reading the last pages of a great mystery novel to know the ending, then then complaining about why the book has no tension. The only thing they could have done is kill of Roshi. Maybe.

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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by MisteryOne » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:41 am

Definetly not. Extremely inconsistent, random power ups, made SSBlue a joke, awful power scaling, bad use of Future Trunks, Future Zamasu was shit, and fake tension that doesn't even need to exist. Also Goku is terribly written for most of the show, including the start of the TOP. It still had great moments trough, mainly Goku Black, until they showed how incompetent he was in the anime. Outside of when Goku turns UI, I'm definetly not rewatching it except maybe some parts of the FT arc.
Professor Freeza wrote:Better than the hapless manga.

Sure, there's odd stuffs all around. Like just take ToP. Why didnt U10 do better? Why didnt U3 eliminate ANYONE? Why didnt a non U7 Universe eliminate another universe?

But what is HAS done in scores is give moments. People complain about it being fanfictionish, but honestly, did you NOT get excited when you saw the UI KHH vs Kefla? Or a dream team u7 going against Aniraza? Average writing doesnt do that. It doesnt make you excited. Like RoF. or like Buu arc. Super did give us a lot of things.
Have you read the manga? How on hell is it bad written compared to the anime? Please elaborate, I'm curious as to how it can be worse that the mess that is the anime.

And I didn't get excited with any of those. Aniraza was still a random enemy, and the Kame Hame Ha was just good because of the storyboard and the way it was handled, but it was stil obvious that Kefla would lose. Beerus' and Goku's respective Hakai actually excited me more.
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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Sykin » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:05 am

Is it particularly amazing? Ehhh, I don't think I would say so. I do think it's a lot better than a lot of people would say though. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that Super is far more consistent than Z.
Planet Vegeta was destroyed by an Asteroid! No, wait! Freeza did it! Well, actually Beerus told Freeza to do it.
You don't really get a lot of these things with stuff Super introduces. However, DB/Z always fine in this regard as Dragon Ball had always been really good at covering up any holes that got created. I'd say DB is so good at it that most of the time you think "Oh, yeah that makes sense."

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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Professor Freeza » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:06 am

MisteryOne wrote:Definetly not. Extremely inconsistent, random power ups, made SSBlue a joke, awful power scaling, bad use of Future Trunks, Future Zamasu was shit, and fake tension that doesn't even need to exist. Also Goku is terribly written for most of the show, including the start of the TOP. It still had great moments trough, mainly Goku Black, until they showed how incompetent he was in the anime. Outside of when Goku turns UI, I'm definetly not rewatching it except maybe some parts of the FT arc.
Professor Freeza wrote:Better than the hapless manga.

Sure, there's odd stuffs all around. Like just take ToP. Why didnt U10 do better? Why didnt U3 eliminate ANYONE? Why didnt a non U7 Universe eliminate another universe?

But what is HAS done in scores is give moments. People complain about it being fanfictionish, but honestly, did you NOT get excited when you saw the UI KHH vs Kefla? Or a dream team u7 going against Aniraza? Average writing doesnt do that. It doesnt make you excited. Like RoF. or like Buu arc. Super did give us a lot of things.
Have you read the manga? How on hell is it bad written compared to the anime? Please elaborate, I'm curious as to how it can be worse that the mess that is the anime.

Weak writing. So SSB Vegeta lost to Hit so easily because he used SSB ONCE to one hit KO Cabba? WTF? [cant remember any other BS from the U6 tournament right now. I know there are more.]

FT Arc. DESTROYED whatever meaning the time travel thing made. Out the roof. Goku Black didnt get to Fight Goku once? SSj2 Trunks supposedly having problems to beat Dabura but can go TOE TO TOE with SSj3 Goku? Supposedly can heal people but doesnt know that? Completely ignored to show WHY Zamasu turned on the gods and mortals, which the anime did so wonderfully. COMPLETE and UTTER fuck up of the storyline. So only a Kaioshin can wear a time ring. That MAKES Zamasu [and Black] kaioshin. Proof is in Black's right hand's index finger. But supposedly the fusion ran out because they arent a kaioshin, what? WHAT??????? And Merged Zamasu using hard METAL CUBES as attacks? Really? Some random hard metal Cube can hurt Universe Busters in Goku and Vegeta? [Kachi Katchin is stronger, as proved by GP in the anime. Yet its breaking like ordinary rocks on impact]. MZ is a God and apparently as strong as Beerus but he has no grand attack? Goku using Hakai? Since when did we see anyone except the Gods use it? Goku learned it by seeing it once? Trunks being reduced to garbage and a glorified male Mai?

I dont like Manga Jiren at all. but i have to see more to comment.
MisteryOne wrote:Definetly not. Extremely inconsistent,awful power scaling, bad use of Future Trunks, Future Zamasu was shit, and fake tension that doesn't even need to exist. It still had great moments trough, mainly Goku Black, until they showed how incompetent he was in the anime..
LOTS of things you said about the anime can be said about the manga. and more. Manga should stay as it is,Promotional material, because is the worst crap i have ever seen. Toyotaro is a GREAT artist but a WORSE storyteller than even the folks at TOEI.
And I didn't get excited with any of those. Aniraza was still a random enemy, and the Kame Hame Ha was just good because of the storyboard and the way it was handled, but it was stil obvious that Kefla would lose. Beerus' and Goku's respective Hakai actually excited me more.
Aniraza a random enemy? Cant wait to see the manga throw away hoards of people out of the ring off panel. At least the anime gave at least ONE good showing to all universes except U4.

Nothing in the manga is worth a dime.

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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by perucho1990 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:48 am

Of course not, because most of the directors, script writers and Toriyama are out of touch.

Roshi for example is the one that killed powerlevels, he shouldve been buried instead of Tenshinhan. Sorry but Roshi isnt awesome, and he shouldve apologized for wasting everyones time.

They are so out of touch that believe people wanted the ToP to be a U7 wankfest and you wonder why the ratings have gone way down after episode 116.

The ToP in the manga could be good if Toyotaro continues to be inspired by Hero Academia.

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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Cetra » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:53 pm

As much as I admire Toriyama-san and Toyotarou-san, when they do Dragon Ball it is Pokemon Red/Blue. Awesome and classic but very shallow. When Toei does roll up its sleeves, Dragon Ball becomes Pokémon XYZ, an anime that you love that it finally has arrived at the point of being like this but still are shaking your heads sometimes. Super has these moments, GT has these moments. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z filler has these moments. It is like with Satoshi Tajiri. He came up with Pokémon. Other people are making it even greater. Or with Hironobu Sakaguchi. He had the idea of Final Fantasy. Other people are making it great, specifically Kazushige Nojima, Tesuya Nomura, et cetera. The latter one has multiple installments that are not even telling the same story but I guess one gets the idea.
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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Amir » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:48 pm

Hell no. This show is just some inconsistent mess. As much as I love it (and I really do), it has bad writing just as much as good writing, 50/50.
The fact that every episode has a different writer makes it even worse, in many cases, there is no follow up at all.

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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Kanious » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:36 pm

I like the writing in Dragon Ball Super. Things from DRAGON BALL are remembered, and about transformations without explanation... if i remember well, Super Saiyan 2 doesn't even had a name for a long time. Super Saiyan 3 was never well explained too.

Also, characters like Gohan are "consistent" [he is a weakling, and he is not getting asspulls out of nowhere, nor getting importance without being important] and this is cool. Some characters like Vegeta got massive character development.

Aside the first two arcs, i would give a 8/10 for the writing of Dragon Ball Super, and i find it superior to Dragon Ball Z which to me had terrible writing.

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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by puar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:47 pm

dragon ball is not about writing. dragon ball is about good vs evil. in that factor the zamasu arc achieved the goal.

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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Weejus » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:40 pm

puar wrote:dragon ball is not about writing. dragon ball is about good vs evil. in that factor the zamasu arc achieved the goal.
While I see where you're coming from, if you're going to seemingly absolve Dragon Ball of all its faults on the 'grounds' of it being a 'good and evil story' (implying that a story with such black and white moral divisions can't be complex or mature within themselves, though I wouldn't call Dragon Ball complex), then I suppose we should never critique or expect better from the media we consume, even if it's a Sunday morning cartoon designed to sell toys.

...

If I had to share my opinion, then honestly, no, I don't find DBS particularly compelling or well-written. The vast majority of criticisms I have with the show have already been echoed by many others. However, I don't find it worthless. I find the show enjoyable as an action and/or animation spectacle when it succeeds on those fronts, but without the weekly buzz and hype that each new episode brings, I don't think I'd watch it at all. While I don't consider it a particularly compelling continuation of the Dragon Ball story in its current state (I would much rather have had a series that delved into the post-DB lore explored in Dragon Ball Online), it isn't devoid of the inherent charm that the Dragon Ball source material has. I don't particularly care about things like power scaling, as I know that it's not a priority for those involved in the show's production (i.e. Toriyama), so I'm comfortable letting some of the finer details slide if they service an overall better story. I just hope the next arc can allow for a less rigid and more engaging narrative, but I know that will never happen for two major reasons. The first is that as long as DBS squats in the in-between timeskip period, there is next to no opportunity for tension to develop, since (even though this is a shonen and the good guys inevitably win anyway), we already know Goku and his mates will be fine, because from the audience's perspective, the 'end of DBZ' has already happened. The second is that the primary characters are such marketing juggernauts within the animation/pop culture circle that there's no way any of the parties involved would want to make any major changes to them for fear of potentially squandering any profit.

Deep down, I'm not really motivated to expect anything truly exceptional or meaningful from Dragon Ball Super, because as previously stated, it is not the grand continuation of Dragon Ball we always dreamed of. It is a Sunday morning cartoon designed to sell toys. I don't mean to paint the DB source material as a complex, flawless story that will go down in history as one of the greatest pieces of literature of all time, either in comparison to Super or otherwise. However, it's difficult to deny the feeling that DBS does not come across as a story that anyone really wanted to tell.

Despite what I have said about the show, that doesn't mean I can't (or don't) enjoy it, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't enjoy it. DBS can still be fun despite all of this.

(In the defence of the power scaling heads, I'll admit seeing Ribrianne's apparent standing in power rankings have no consistency did frustrate me a little bit.)
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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Miracles » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:01 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
It wasn't called "Super Saiyan Rage."
Actually, the official name of the form is 'Super Saiyan Ikari', which stands for 'Super Saiyan Anger/Rage/Wrath'.
It was stated that Trunks got the boost through rage.
And how does that work, exactly? Why did Goku, Vegeta or even Black never attained Super Saiyan Anger when they were taken by rage? Why was this boost/transformation unique to Trunks? Furthermore, is it an actual transformation, a new form, or just a stronger version of Super Saiyan 2 (but not an entirely separate transformation)? Does this form have some kind of relationship with Super Saiyan Blue, given the blue/yellow aura?

'Trunks got the boost through rage' is a pretty vague and short explanation, don't you think? That's the premise of basically every other Super Saiyan transformations (bar the godly ones).
Exactly. Power up through rage is an already established plot point in Dragonball.
Goku received SS from rage, Vegeta against Beerus and Black got power boosts through rage as well.
What the form actually is was not explained but how Trunks achieved it was.

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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Tombstone1988 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:39 pm

This is a difficult question to answer as it is very broad, something I believe our mod was alluding to. As such, the short answer is "it depends."

To go into more detail though, there are instances of great writing in the show. The opening of the Future Trunks Arc was done brilliantly, creating tension and mystery. Roshi's episodes in the ToP (with the exception of the recruitment episode, in my opinion) have tended to shine in characterization and development. 17 has had some well-written moments in the tournament. A lot of characters have had plenty of moments where they grew, or at least changed in some manner. As others have pointed out, this is Super's greatest strength: strong individual writing. When they focus on the pieces (aka the characters), they tend to make better episodes.

But why is that? The answer is actually pretty simple: it has to do with how Super is written. It's no secret that Toriyama creates a basic outline of an arc, and it's left to Toei/individual writers to fill in the blanks. Here's the thing, though: different people have different viewpoints. How one writer looks at a scenario may not necessarily be the same as another. This leads us to why character episodes tend to excel: they are able to focus on a smaller, more established aspect of the show. Roshi has a known personality, with well-established faults; having a character arc devoted to overcoming his own demons is simple to convey. And contrary to what some may say, simple doesn't equate to bad. Simple is, however, easier to write in just a couple episodes. So when a writer is given one, maybe two episodes to establish a plot line, going the character route can lead to better writing.

This leads us to the negative: with so many writers and viewpoints, the big picture tends to get muddied. If you ask the community if they felt the ending to the Future Trunks/Zamasu Arc was satisfying, you might get a plethora of answers. If, however, you ask if it was well-written, most will probably tell you "no." This can be traced to the difference between individual stories vs. the main plot. Zamasu, Trunks, Goku, Vegeta... these characters had multiple moments that made you enjoy their characters during the arc. On the flip side, questions such as: ["How did Trunks get so powerful?" "Why was Goku's Kamehameha more damaging than Vegetto's Final Kamehameha?" "Why did this feel so rushed?"] are left unanswered. The same logic applies to the tournament. Individual episodes, like those for Roshi or Gohan or 17 and 18, tend to be looked on more favorably writing-wise. This is usually because they're more focused and know what they want to convey. However, episodes like episode 100/101 or episode 119, tend to be looked on less favorably writing-wise. This is because they try to convey too much in too little time or lack a focused purpose.

As a whole, Super's writing is probably on the weaker side. It's not entirely the fault of any individual person, though. In fact, having multiple writers tends to be the leading cause for issues. This doesn't prevent the show from having fantastic moments, though. So, as I said originally, "it depends."
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Re: Do you think Dragonball Super Anime is well written?

Post by Hawk9211 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:37 am

Professor Freeza wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:
Professor Freeza wrote:Better than the hapless manga.

Sure, there's odd stuffs all around. Like just take ToP. Why didnt U10 do better? Why didnt U3 eliminate ANYONE? Why didnt a non U7 Universe eliminate another universe?

But what is HAS done in scores is give moments. People complain about it being fanfictionish, but honestly, did you NOT get excited when you saw the UI KHH vs Kefla? Or a dream team u7 going against Aniraza? Average writing doesnt do that. It doesnt make you excited. Like RoF. or like Buu arc. Super did give us a lot of things.
You ignored the bad moments.Sure,there are some great moments but there are also garbage moments like ribrianne,all the red herrings,fake tension etc.

Ribrianne redeemed her by the end. SO much so that i was more upset with U2's erasure than U6's.

Red Herrings are part and parcel of good writing. But there does need to be some pay off. U4 one was tossed aside. But they can still make it up to end freeza's story on the highest possible note.

Fake Tension? Can you have real tension at all when you already know what's happening at EoZ? Its like reading the last pages of a great mystery novel to know the ending, then then complaining about why the book has no tension. The only thing they could have done is kill of Roshi. Maybe.
Ribrianne redeemed her,how?She has one good moment which even if redeems her character in your opinion,what about all fake hype and wasted screentime? What about the fact that 90% of character s out of U6 and U7 are either generic assholes or one dimensional parody?What about the fact that d
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball

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