Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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coola
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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by coola » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:42 am

Besides 99% of GT, worst Goku Time was DBZ Movie 3, they didnt even allowed Piccolo and others to at least kill minions, everything was done by Goku. At least in Tournament, everyone managed to eliminate someone, it could be small fly, like with Tenshinhan, but at least it was something :) Every shounen/magical girl show have MC who always is one who beats final boss, so when others beat midboss and/or help during final confrontation, I'm satisfied :)
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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by BlueBasilisk » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:23 am

AnAverageJoe1998 wrote: Goku being the main character and all, is going to have the most screen-time in Super. The difference is that the characters act independently from Goku and are capable at defeating foes themselves without having to stand around and wait for him unless it's made clear that they are not able to do so. I felt that both the Universal Survival arc and the Future Trunks Arc in particular have done a pretty good job at utilizing the characters to avoid the pitfall GT made.
This was one of the most serious problems GT had. Pan was rendered a damsel in distress just so Goku could save her. Goku would actually STOP other characters from getting into fights so he could do things himself. Baby: Gohan, Goten, and Trunks wanted to help fight Great Ape Baby but Goku told them to fuck off because they were too weak so they ended up being ki batteries so he could power up SS4. Super 17 was the same thing once he got back from that stupid field trip to Hell. 18 did help beat Super 17 but that was over his protests. Shadow Dragons: Goku wanted to go that one alone too but Pan bullied her way along. Vegeta showed up eventually to be fusion fodder for Gogeta and to get slapped around by Omega to stall for Goku. Most of the heroes got more play as Baby's pawns than as themselves. :problem:

Say what you will about Super Goku but he doesn't go out of his way to stop people from fighting alongside him. If he was like GT Goku, everyone but Vegeta would donate their ki to him and then chuck themselves out of the ring while. lamenting their uselessness.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Hawk9211 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:27 am

I just took another look at it and top five spots are occupied by saiyans two of which are are erased,guess I am the only one bothered by it.The worst thing foe me is it is not going to change.
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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:29 am

This is the one of the few fanbases I've come across that seem to get offended by the fact that the main character has the most amount of screentime.

It's baffling.

It's like complaining that Batman or Superman are getting too much screentime in their comics.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by TBMx » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:45 am

Lord Beerus wrote:This is the one of the few fanbases I've come across that seem to get offended by the fact that the main character has the most amount of screentime.

It's baffling.

It's like complaining that Batman or Superman are getting too much screentime in their comics.
Dragonball Z and onward is closer to Justice League than a Batman or Superman comic.

Superman comics are designed for the audience to have Kal El as their favourite character. As there's no other valid choices presented. So it doesn't sideline any of the audience's favourites.

Dragonball Z on the other hand presented many potential fan favourites and Super neglects them all for Goku time.

A main character is not supposed to be on stage for the sake of it. He or she is supposed to actually contribute something to the narrative.

It is not normal for a main character to dominate this kind of tournament to this extent. There is no rhyme or reason put into Goku's screentime. He's just thrown in there. Making it low quality, junk screentime. It doesn't even adhere to the basic logic of the setting.

Good main characters don't need overwhelming screentime because they make what screentime they do have, count.

If Goku didn't hog screentime so much, it could have been used to make us care about the universes that got erased.

There. I just un-baffled you.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Torturephile » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:53 am

As far as Super goes, I think it hasn't been all about Goku Time like some suggest.

-In the Battle of Gods saga, while Goku received most of the screen time, specially during his second fight with Beerus, Kaio attempted to keep Goku and his antics in check once Beerus arrived in his planet and told Vegeta in advance about Beerus' arrival on Earth. Vegeta tried to keep everything in check from making Beerus get mad, thus preventing the Earth from being destroyed right away. It was the "wait for Goku" saga.

-In the Resurrection of Freeza saga, Vegeta was promoted to being Goku's equal. Jaco told Bulma about Freeza's arrival to Earth, and most of the Z Fighters proceeded to hold off Freeza's army from causing shenanigans. It was the "wait for Goku and Vegeta" saga.

-In the U7 vs. U6 saga, Vegeta took out three U6 contestants and his jobbing to Hit was important for Goku to figure out how to match Hit. Jaco was key in getting Goku back into the tournament after exposing Frost with his great vision, and he and the Galactic King also helped Goku decipher what were Hit's abilities all about. Even Monaka helped Bulma in finding out where was the last super dragon ball. It was the "let's help Goku" saga.

-In the future saga, while Goku was central to the story, from getting body-jacked to fighting Fused Zamasu, Vegeta also helped out in combat, more so in the manga where he beat Black twice, and convinced Future Trunks into getting stronger and supported him throughout. Future Trunks mastered the art of asspulls and was promoted to main character. Bulma, in the anime, restored Cell's time machine to working condition, served as decoy to distract Future Zamasu, and prepared supplies for the habitants of Future Earth. Future Mai saved the heroes a few times after their defeat and sent all of them to the past, and she helped out Future Trunks with the Mafuba. The deities helped to figure out Black's identity and prevented Gowasu's death and erased Zamasu. Piccolo suggested the Mafuba and made a tutorial video with Bulma, and Roshi taught it to Goku despite it led to nothing.

Will add more later, but I have to work right now.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:22 am

TBMx wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:This is the one of the few fanbases I've come across that seem to get offended by the fact that the main character has the most amount of screentime.

It's baffling.

It's like complaining that Batman or Superman are getting too much screentime in their comics.
Dragonball Z and onward is closer to Justice League than a Batman or Superman comic.

Superman comics are designed for the audience to have Kal El as their favourite character. As there's no other valid choices presented. So it doesn't sideline any of the audience's favourites.

Dragonball Z on the other hand presented many potential fan favourites and Super neglects them all for Goku time.

A main character is not supposed to be on stage for the sake of it. He or she is supposed to actually contribute something to the narrative.

It is not normal for a main character to dominate this kind of tournament to this extent. There is no rhyme or reason put into Goku's screentime. He's just thrown in there. Making it low quality, junk screentime. It doesn't even adhere to the basic logic of the setting.

Good main characters don't need overwhelming screentime because they make what screentime they do have, count.

If Goku didn't hog screentime so much, it could have been used to make us care about the universes that got erased.

There. I just un-baffled you.
Dragon Ball Z and everything after that is nothing like the Justice League. Like... at all. The comparison is something I've come across and it just befuddles me. How much of Dragon Ball Z and Justice League have people actually watched to come to the conclusion that they're similar shows?

The use of the supporting cast in Dragon Ball been more or less dependent on how organic their inclusion in the plot would feel or how much Toriyama feel certain character would bring the most entertainment out of certain scenarios in any given story arc.

Battle of Gods had a character that was established to be stronger than any other villain the main cast had come across. So naturally the supporting cast aren't going to get much screentime, because it wouldn't be that productive to the plot, especially concerning fighting Beerus. Goku, and by extension Vegeta, being he only characters to get a seriou battle against the main antagonistic felt natural to the plot given the circumstances of it. Only a Super Saiyan God could challenge Beerus and Goku was the most proficient character when it came to Saiyan transformations, so he was chosen.

Resurrection F had the likes of Krillin, Roshi, Piccolo, Gohan and Tien fighting Freeza's Army and naturally stepped back from the plot when Freeza came into the mix. They were utilized in the plot appropriately and accordingly.

The Universe 6/7 tournament was bit skewered towards Goku and Vegeta (especially in the manga), I'll admit to that. But it was fare from the the "Goku show" as Vegeta, Piccolo and Monaka played their respective parts in the plot.

The Future Trunks arc had Goku, Vegeta and Future Trunks all sharing the role of protagonist. With Future Mai and Earths Resistance, Kaioshin, Beerus, Whis, Bulma Gowasu and even Piccolo (in the anime), playing key supporting roles.

The Universal Survival arc has featured all of the main cast has had at least one major fight and/or episode dedicated to themselves.

Having screentime is one thing, but how that screentime is utilized is another subject entirely. Goku having the most amount of screentime in the Universal Survival arc hasn't detracted at all from the great episodes, fights or moments that many of the other characters have received during this arc which have either contributed significantly to the scope of the narrative or have just existed as moments given to the character to service them specifically.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by perucho1990 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:49 am

We live in an era where the MC has to be pushed aside, this isnt 1995 anymore.

Look at Pokemon, another franchise that is as big as Dragon Ball, in their latest arc they are pushing Ash aside and they have defeated DBS in the ratings.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Tai981 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:58 am

perucho1990 wrote:We live in an era where the MC has to be pushed aside, this isnt 1995 anymore.

Look at Pokemon, another franchise that is as big as Dragon Ball, in their latest arc they are pushing Ash aside and they have defeated DBS in the ratings.
The whole Pokémon beating DBS in ratings is not something to go by. DBS has increased competition from another show, forgive me as I have forgotten the name of the show. Anyway, DBS is competing with another show and I believe Pokémon doesn't have as fierce competition.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by TekTheNinja » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:48 pm

It's most notable in moments where Goku butts in where he doesn't belong too. There was that time Hit was fighting Dyspo, but then Goku basically stole the focus by joining in on the fight and bringing back red god. Most infamously, there's him stealing the Freeza kill from Vegeta. Even in the Copy-Vegeta filler, Goku comes out of nowhere and saves the day, even though it could have easily been a Gotenks episode.

At least in DBS, Vegeta sometimes gets to share the spotlight, but everyone else gets shat on. People bring up the tournament of power, but even then the characters moments feel narratively unimportant and even then, characters like the humans and Buu still get the short end of the stick.

Super is at the very least, almost as bad as GT in this regard. I honestly don't get why people find it so hard to compare their precious DBS to DBGT. GT is THAT bad and Super isn't THAT good. It's not incomparable at all.
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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by gofishus » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:05 pm

lancerman wrote:What series did more with each character

Gohan- Super
Piccolo- Super
Vegeta- Super
Kuriren- Super
Roshi- Super
Tenshinhan- Super
Yamcha- Super
Videl-Super
Chi Chi- Super
Bulma- Super
17- Super
18- Super
Pan-GT(because she's a baby)
Oob- (because it's too early in the timeline for him to be introduced to the cast)

Which series added more main cast members? Super with Beerus, Whis, Zeno, Jaco, etc
Which series added more characters and lore to the series overall? Super by a mile. Just the current arc alone dwarfs any additions made by GT.

Goku defeated Baby, Super 17, and Omega Shenron in GT. In Super Goku lost to Beerus, killed Freeza after Vegeta essentially won to prevent the Earth from being destroyed, Trunks beat Goku Black/Zamasu with Zeno finishing him off.

You can't compare this to GT when it comes to how Goku centric it was and how other characters were utilized.
Vegeta is debateable - he had the second most screentime in GT and Baby Vegeta was one of the main villains. Piccolo is also debatable - he sacrificed his life in GT whereas in Super he didnt do all that much actually. 17 was Super 17 in GT whereas in Super he's just kind of randomly powerful. Gohan was also completely worthless in Super until this arc. The rest I agree with.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Onibaku » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:09 pm

Bullza wrote:The main character of the series had the most screentime by far? I'm so completely surprised by this...
It's a devastating revelation we came across. What do we do now?!

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:35 pm

GT was literally all Goku and Pan. Vegeta never even got a time to shine.

Since Super has started, we've seen the likes of Vegeta, Future Trunks, Androids 17 and 18, even ROSHI get time to shine.

Goku is the protagonist. The show is about him. Expect him to get the focus. But to compare Super to GT on the grounds it's just "Goku Time", in my opinion, is just ridiculous.

Btw, a lot of people I've seen complain about Goku getting all the screentime also complain when Roshi or 18 get the spotlight, saying it's focusing on "pointless characters." This has really led me to believe some people just can't be satisfied

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Jigurashi » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:41 pm

Doctor. wrote:"Why is Goku the main character?" and "Why does the main character win?" is basically all this thread can be summed up as.
Even then, his win record is garbage.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:49 pm

Actually, i like how the Future Trunks arc put more focus on Trunks rather than Goku. Not because i like Trunks, but because it was a nice breath of fresh air. Vegeta also got memorable moments in that arc, like episode 63. And, obviously, i adore how Goku couldn't defeat the villain. He was outmatched, outsmarted, cornered. He had to resort to calling the highest being in existence to gain a pyrrhic victory. Very satisfying to watch Goku struggle and lose for once. Ultimately, this series has put less emphasis on Goku than GT did.
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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by TheDipDap1234 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:53 pm

MKCSTEALTH wrote:GT was literally all Goku and Pan. Vegeta never even got a time to shine.

Since Super has started, we've seen the likes of Vegeta, Future Trunks, Androids 17 and 18, even ROSHI get time to shine.

Goku is the protagonist. The show is about him. Expect him to get the focus. But to compare Super to GT on the grounds it's just "Goku Time", in my opinion, is just ridiculous.

Btw, a lot of people I've seen complain about Goku getting all the screentime also complain when Roshi or 18 get the spotlight, saying it's focusing on "pointless characters." This has really led me to believe some people just can't be satisfied
The reason they say that is because they aren't strong. They only like the strong characters, and hate all the weaker characters, but they're getting tired with Goku getting all the screentime and want their favorites like Vegeta, Gohan and Freeza fight already. They're the worst type of DBZ fanboys. It's especially annoying when they call all the episodes that don't focus around Goku, Gohan or Vegeta "filler episodes".

But to stay on topic, while Goku does get a lot of screentime in Super, it's nothing compared to what he got in GT. I don't remember any character besides Goku and Pan get focus in GT. Characters like Yamcha and Tien only appeared for brief seconds. Super on the other hand has been kind to many other characters not just to Goku.
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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by FortuneSSJ » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:20 pm

They did. If it was GT, the only fighter from U7 participating on ToP would be Goku.
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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:32 pm

Tai981 wrote:
perucho1990 wrote:We live in an era where the MC has to be pushed aside, this isnt 1995 anymore.

Look at Pokemon, another franchise that is as big as Dragon Ball, in their latest arc they are pushing Ash aside and they have defeated DBS in the ratings.
The whole Pokémon beating DBS in ratings is not something to go by. DBS has increased competition from another show, forgive me as I have forgotten the name of the show. Anyway, DBS is competing with another show and I believe Pokémon doesn't have as fierce competition.
You are completely right, that is another reason why stats in this case ratings are unfair to judge upon. Pokemon beat DBS a few weeks ago and then dropped like a rock and now "beat" DBS again conveniently perucho1990 missed that bit of info out, how anyone puts that much stock in these ridiculous ratings is beyond me.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by precita » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:51 pm

Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin really should have gotten more screentime in the TOP than they did.

I don't know why they also had Goku/Vegeta take out so many clearly weaker fodder enemies when they could have been taken out by Krillin instead.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Jigurashi » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:53 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:Actually, i like how the Future Trunks arc put more focus on Trunks rather than Goku. Not because i like Trunks, but because it was a nice breath of fresh air. Vegeta also got memorable moments in that arc, like episode 63. And, obviously, i adore how Goku couldn't defeat the villain. He was outmatched, outsmarted, cornered. He had to resort to calling the highest being in existence to gain a pyrrhic victory. Very satisfying to watch Goku struggle and lose for once. Ultimately, this series has put less emphasis on Goku than GT did.
He's been losing often since Z though lol.

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