Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:13 pm

Why are things from social media making their way to Kanzenshuu? What is next are people going to start topics on anytime a new meme pops up? :roll:

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by iamthelaw7 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:57 pm

The current arc (since the ToP started) has been the only arc in DBS where I noticed Goku’s screen time. I think they could have cut back at least a little on his screen time to give more focus to the other characters/fights. I think stories are better when more buildup is given to the main adversary, so I would have liked more focus on Jiren. A big reason why Freeza is such an iconic villain is the development they gave to his story and personality. Jiren isn't a villain, but I mean as Goku's main adversary.

I also think the story is more interesting and dynamic where the other characters are given some of their own focus and development. The main character can still have his/her own focus and be woven in and out of the stories/subplots of the other characters. Other protagonists do exist in dragon ball besides Goku, and some have played large roles along side Goku (In Z there was Gohan, Vegeta, Krillin, Piccolo, Future Trunks, etc.). The other characters in the story also give Goku more characterization and personality through his interactions with them. There are plenty of instances where the other characters served as catalysts for great moments for Goku. There are also great moments and fights in the series that were focused on other characters, even though Goku wasn't in the particular scene. Dragon ball has so many great characters.

I think it’s just a matter of proportion. Giving Goku the right amount of focus as the main character, but also giving the necessary focus and development to the other characters so they can add good dimension to Goku’s story. I think Z did a better job flashing around to various subplots, it made the story more dynamic – so in this arc I mean while having Goku be the main focus, also focus a little more on the other fights going on, characters and universes. Other characters have been given some shine/focus and I don’t think it’s GT levels, but it’s a matter of proportion and effective use of screen time.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by MozillaVulpix » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:08 pm

This is exactly why trying to give judgements by making graphs misses the point entirely. I do agree there were some parts of the ToP where Goku didn't necessarily need to be there (104 immediately comes to mind), but there's also a clear reason as to why there's such a big focus on Goku. With so many characters in this tournament, Toei is trying to keep Goku as a hinge to make sure the audience doesn't get too confused over who to root for or what really matters. Especially post-special, it feels like there's a legitimate reason why we keep wanting to know what Goku is doing - he's both weakened and also the only character capable of giving Jiren a fight. We want to know if he can do that again. We don't want him to get ganged up on and defeated.

And even in-universe, it makes total sense that a lot of the strongest fighters are going to try and fight Goku. Goku has a massive target on his head, first because he was singled out as the one responsible for the tournament, and second because his obtaining of Ultra Instinct then made everyone realise he could be a real threat if left to his own devices.

Goku Time is not a valid criticism unless there's no logical reason as to why it'd be the case, and this tournament has plenty of reasons.
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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by precita » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:13 pm

lancerman wrote:What series did more with each character

Gohan- Super
Piccolo- Super
Vegeta- Super
Kuriren- Super
Roshi- Super
Tenshinhan- Super
Yamcha- Super
Videl-Super
Chi Chi- Super
Bulma- Super
17- Super
18- Super
Pan-GT(because she's a baby)
Oob- (because it's too early in the timeline for him to be introduced to the cast)
What did Yamcha or Videl do in Super? Yamcha is just treated as comic relief and Videl has become a housewife who never fights anymore and is always happy. What happened to her arrogance and tomboyishness from the Buu arc?

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Lionel » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:43 pm

People bring up valid examples about how the subsidiary characters have been seeing some involvement in the fighting of the arcs. The Future Trunks arc took it several steps further by centring in on Trunks' conflict with Goku Black, the people around him that looked up to him as a beacon of light in their dismal existence, and Trunks' desire to prove his mettle to his father. For a once receded character he certainly made quite a comeback. However, the Tournament of Power's intentional grandiosity doesn't or at least shouldn't incite focal concentration on a single character. You say that this event is being pivoted towards Goku because of everyone's preconceptions about his involvement in the tournament becoming a real thing. Well the multi-sided unpredictability and mass scale conflict should still be allowing for consequential eliminations to take place without the involvement of Goku or Universe s7/6 for that matter. They take the time to give the appearance of proactivity amongst these other universes early on with the outlying explosions and occasional shots of them trading blows but nothing substantive ever happens. Much of the time they lack even simple cuts or exhausted stamina when it should in fact be common in this kind of tournament. It's like they were biding their time until being called up onto the stage to have their turn at the chosen member of Universe 7.

Well what about some of the other important names in the tournament, you might say? Haven't they played a role in directing the outcome of the overall tournament? Somewhat, but I've noticed how a good amount of impractical creative license was needed to help it pan out like Jiren's incapacitation of Kale but lack of definitive elimination just so she could go on to have a several episode spectacle of a fight with Goku. As a character she still had more to offer but the execution of her staying in didn't feel very organic. Plus, the argument about Goku being singled out due to his appearance as a dangerous threat to the other universes has holes in it like why Kale wasn't prioritised by anyone except for Toppo's dispatched Pride Troopers after causing so much devastation to the arena and visually beating on Goku, the star pariah whom everyone wanted a crack at because of what he represented. What's more, a number of the other fights given to our favourite side-characters felt superfluous. A good amount of it was enjoyable, some of it not so much, but it didn't feel like it carried much weight. Obviously they can't try and accomplish something that supersedes their established "weight class" -- not without violating some of DB's mechanics principals. Still, when I think of substantive activity in the overall sense I'm best reminded of the Vegeta fight from the Saiyan arc or Goku and Piccolo's alliance against Raditz. It seems like that could happen in the near future against the Pride Troopers, but I confess to having some bias against most of the Saiyans for how they've monopolised this series. #17 I don't care for either. Freeza and Gohan are the only two characters with investment from me.

Trying to argue that Super's commitment to showcasing Goku exclusively is somehow equal to what GT unleashed doesn't sound very fair though. GT must have concentrated over 90% of the fighting time to Goku. In Super, it's been more dispersed while following the tradition of Goku having the last climactic fight against the enemy of the arc, Future Trunks arc being a well appreciated exception. The Tournament of Power could stand to not have Goku stage an appearance every single episode though. I agree with that.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Almighty Majin » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:47 pm

precita wrote:
lancerman wrote:What series did more with each character

Gohan- Super
Piccolo- Super
Vegeta- Super
Kuriren- Super
Roshi- Super
Tenshinhan- Super
Yamcha- Super
Videl-Super
Chi Chi- Super
Bulma- Super
17- Super
18- Super
Pan-GT(because she's a baby)
Oob- (because it's too early in the timeline for him to be introduced to the cast)
What did Yamcha or Videl do in Super? Yamcha is just treated as comic relief and Videl has become a housewife who never fights anymore and is always happy. What happened to her arrogance and tomboyishness from the Buu arc?
Yamcha may be just comic relief, but he has done way more in Super than what he was in GT where he only appeared at the end. Videl was part of the Super Saiyan God ritual since Pan was still inside her, but that's about it.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:58 am

precita wrote:
lancerman wrote:What series did more with each character

Gohan- Super
Piccolo- Super
Vegeta- Super
Kuriren- Super
Roshi- Super
Tenshinhan- Super
Yamcha- Super
Videl-Super
Chi Chi- Super
Bulma- Super
17- Super
18- Super
Pan-GT(because she's a baby)
Oob- (because it's too early in the timeline for him to be introduced to the cast)
What did Yamcha or Videl do in Super? Yamcha is just treated as comic relief and Videl has become a housewife who never fights anymore and is always happy. What happened to her arrogance and tomboyishness from the Buu arc?
That was all lost within the Buu arc itself when Videl turned back to go back to the tourney as she couldn't keep up with Gohan, from then she just became Gohan's typical generic love interest. At that moment everything that made Videl unique was gone.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Saturnine » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:32 pm

SirTorra wrote:As bad as some might think goku is in GT, he's 10x worse in Super. Super completely butchered what little character goku had left. From acting like a complete dumbass to taking up to much screentime, the writers handling Goku should take a a step away from writing if this is the best thay can make goku be. What makes it sad is that Goku has had HUGE amounts of screen time yet no character development. You would expect the opposite to happen right? Nope these writers don't have a clue what they're doing when it comes to handling goku.
Actually I minded much more what characterization GT gave Goku tbh

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by buutenks » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:34 pm

DB in general is about the adventures of Goku and his friends. Super, apart from the retellings has done a good job with using the other z fighters. GT on the other hand was pure Goku wanking.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by GTx10 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:57 pm

This entire thread just screams "Why isn't my boy xxx in the spotlight?" (Also what is going on with the "my boy" thing? It sounds goofy) I'll keep saying this until I'm red in the face but original Dragon Ball.
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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by TekTheNinja » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:46 pm

Thing is, DBS keeps teasing character relevancy to characters other than Goku and Vegeta, but never delivers, and sometimes even completely screws over a character that was hyped. DBGT never teased shit. Sure, it was Goku Time, but it knew it and never tried building up false hype. Super does things like teasing bringing Buu to two different tournaments and had him fall asleep both times. That's just ridiculous.
GTx10 wrote:This entire thread just screams "Why isn't my boy xxx in the spotlight?" (Also what is going on with the "my boy" thing? It sounds goofy) I'll keep saying this until I'm red in the face but original Dragon Ball.
And I'll keep saying THIS until i'm red in the face, but that argument makes no bloody sense. Original DB had perhaps the best character relevancy of any Dragon Ball series. It was in no way "Goku Time".
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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by precita » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:55 pm

My boy Gohan is being screwed. My boy Piccolo is being screwed. My boy Krillin is being screwed. My boy Majin Buu is being screwed. My boys Trunks and Goten are being screwed.

It's like only the Androids had a great return to showing.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Jigurashi » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:59 pm

precita wrote:My boy Gohan is being screwed. My boy Piccolo is being screwed. My boy Krillin is being screwed. My boy Majin Buu is being screwed. My boys Trunks and Goten are being screwed.

It's like only the Androids had a great return to showing.
How is Gohan being screwed?

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Kagari » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:42 pm

precita wrote:My boy Gohan is being screwed. My boy Piccolo is being screwed. My boy Krillin is being screwed. My boy Majin Buu is being screwed. My boys Trunks and Goten are being screwed.

It's like only the Androids had a great return to showing.
How? He's had the most time out of anyone other than Goku this entire arc.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by precita » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:21 pm

He's had screentime, but not many fights. In fact he got far less focus than I thought he would. Then there's that ep with the robots and Yardrat attacking him where he did nothing before Freeza fought him a bit and he flew off. The fight with the Nameks was stretched across like 5-6 eps but we only saw 1 minute of it at time for most eps.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Jigurashi » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:38 am

precita wrote:He's had screentime, but not many fights. In fact he got far less focus than I thought he would. Then there's that ep with the robots and Yardrat attacking him where he did nothing before Freeza fought him a bit and he flew off. The fight with the Nameks was stretched across like 5-6 eps but we only saw 1 minute of it at time for most eps.
I don't really see how that's him being screwed. He was treated well in the Zen Exhibition arc and Recruitment arc and outside of his fights in episodes 106 and 108, he's been treated fine in the ToP as well overall. Don't really see how he's been screwed over. This just sounds more like you're not satisfied with what he's gotten and want more rather than him actually being screwed over.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Chuquita » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:04 am

Is it a wrestling term, "my boy"?

Wrestling's one of the sports I don't follow, but am aware that a chunk of Dragon Ball fans do.
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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by TekTheNinja » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:41 am

Gohan hasn't been great so far. I dunno about "screwed", but they basically make him just a dunce brawler who just punches thing until he wins. (Botamo fight) and mostly fought unimportant fodder characters. Not much he does feels that important.
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saiyanvegetable wrote:Trunks slowly realizes this is not the past he came to when he fought Cell, instead he finds himself trapped in a world with hollow caricatures, a talking cat, and a Goku who beat the heart virus but is suffering from retardation.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by SSJ YUSUKE » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:46 am

TekTheNinja wrote:Gohan hasn't been great so far. I dunno about "screwed", but they basically make him just a dunce brawler who just punches thing until he wins. (Botamo fight) and mostly fought unimportant fodder characters. Not much he does feels that important.
Which is still 100% more than he ever did in GT.

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Re: Goku Time. They learned nothing from GT.

Post by Chuquita » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:59 am

Looked it up, the phrase "my boy" is either from Zelda or wrestling. Neither do I follow.
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