Why do you think Super is ending ?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by sintzu » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:15 am

Regardless of what's replacing it or if it comes back later, why do you think they decided to stop it ? Was it to improve production ? was it to give Toriyama more time to write ? was it to avoid franchise saturation ? or is it something completely different ?
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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:29 am

I think Kitaro was always supposed to air for the 50th anniversary hence why we're getting a new movie to keep the DB train going in some capacity.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Professor Freeza » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:34 am

I find absolutely no reason. Its like cancelling a top hit show like Game of Thrones with something with the Kardashians.

This SCREEEMS like a financial disaster honestly. Nobody has he4ard of Kitaro outside of Japan. Its a Vanity project at best.

And if they do want to do this, they should end with a Cliffhanger:

[*] Let Jiren win the damn ToP. Erase U7

[*] Let U7 and U11 both stay via a Tie and somehow make Freeza take the place of Zeno or become their "mentor", effectively ruling the Multiverse himself

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Michsi » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:36 am

What I hope it is : to give the team room to breath while they're working on the movie. I can't imagine what it'd be like to deal with both the movie and the series when the schedule is already pretty messed up as it is. I'd rather have one thing done really well, instead of two thing done ok. The series has finally started to look good, I'd rather not see it suffer a loss in quality.
I also read that they are moving into a new building and those who are more familiar with the animation process say that a more modern and well organized office can help a lot. So maybe they will resume the series once everything over there has settle a bit.

What I hope it isn't: Toriyama loosing interest, a visible and consistent drop in ratings, negative reviews, an acknowledgement that the games/movies/merchandise can bring in enough money without the series, so there's no point in making it anymore.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Basaku » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:44 am

Michsi wrote:an acknowledgement that the games/movies/merchandise can bring in enough money without the series, so there's no point in making it anymore.
Only to a point, we've seen the numbers for that. Nothing can bring the kind of revenue that an episodic series can.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by sintzu » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:47 am

Michsi wrote:What I hope it isn't: Toriyama loosing interest.
There was a rumor in 2016 about Toriyama maybe walking away because of its quality (and probably other reasons) but most didn't think much about it however, now that Super is ending there may be some truth to it assuming it's not ending for quality improvement reasons.

If DB returns (Fuji TV said it would) without Toriyama then we'll know that's why Super ended out of nowhere, not just in its timing but where the plot is.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Lujin_16 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:03 am

animators of super need a stop because of the next Dragonball movie and they don't want to do the same mistake like the beginning of Super so it will
make a comeback later with good animation lke the last arc maybe even improve a little bit

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by sintzu » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:06 am

Didn't one of the writers say we'd get an episode focused on goten&trunks on that island ? If they did and it doesn't happen then that means it's ending abruptly which points to potential issues going on behind the scenes.
Last edited by sintzu on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by HeroR » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:07 am

Michsi wrote:What I hope it is : to give the team room to breath while they're working on the movie. I can't imagine what it'd be like to deal with both the movie and the series when the schedule is already pretty messed up as it is. I'd rather have one thing done really well, instead of two thing done ok. The series has finally started to look good, I'd rather not see it suffer a loss in quality.
I also read that they are moving into a new building and those who are more familiar with the animation process say that a more modern and well organized office can help a lot. So maybe they will resume the series once everything over there has settle a bit.

What I hope it isn't: Toriyama loosing interest, a visible and consistent drop in ratings, negative reviews, an acknowledgement that the games/movies/merchandise can bring in enough money without the series, so there's no point in making it anymore.
Super doesn't have that much negative reviews. It's scores around 7/8s, crashes CR, high rated on Toonami, and got nominated for CR's best on-going series of 2017. Super gets a lot of vocal hate, but it isn't reflected in the general audience. The same with Resurrection 'F' which is not regarded that well here and with other hardcore fans, yet scores just as high if not higher than Battle of Gods.

The 'dropping' ratings makes even less sense since Super still ranks around 5 and 7 and so far has never dropped from the top 10. That and ratings for all anime has been down.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Basaku » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:11 am

One thing for sure, it wasn't because of the merch/licensing sales:
Image
Image

and half-year numbers for both Toei and Bandai's fiscal years 2018 already show ever higher numbers than in previous years

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by sintzu » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:14 am

Basaku wrote:One thing for sure, it wasn't because of the merch/licensing sales.
It's either to bring it back later with better quality or they had some ugly break up with Toriyama so whatever comes next won't have him involved with it.
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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Michsi » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:31 am

Basaku wrote:
Michsi wrote:an acknowledgement that the games/movies/merchandise can bring in enough money without the series, so there's no point in making it anymore.
Only to a point, we've seen the numbers for that. Nothing can bring the kind of revenue that an episodic series can.
I do think so too, unless the series itself is doing so poorly it might actually hurt the franchise more than help it. Don't think that's the case with Super, reception seems to have improved greatly since the FT arc, but I can imagine there are cases in which the series hasn't done the franchise any favors (though I don't have the numbers, Berserk anime might count as an example)
sintzu wrote:
Michsi wrote:What I hope it isn't: Toriyama loosing interest.
There was a rumor in 2016 about Toriyama maybe walking away because of its quality (and probably other reasons) but most didn't think much about it however, now that Super is ending there may be some truth to it assuming it's not ending for quality improvement reasons.

If DB returns (Fuji TV said it would) without Toriyama then we'll know that's why Super ended out of nowhere, not just in its timing but where the plot is.


We're going to have to wait and see if he makes a statement regarding this. I know he complained about the quality of the animation, but I don't remember the part about him threatening to walk away. The final episodes might help shed a light on the whole thing: if it suddenly skips to EoZ, then we know they meant to wrap up Super like this long ago and we will likely not see a new series anytime soon. As for having a series set after EoZ- something tells me that despite everything, they are still reluctant to encroach upon GT's territory. Just a feeling.
HeroR wrote: Super doesn't have that much negative reviews. It's scores around 7/8s, crashes CR, high rated on Toonami, and got nominated for CR's best on-going series of 2017. Super gets a lot of vocal hate, but it isn't reflected in the general audience. The same with Resurrection 'F' which is not regarded that well here and with other hardcore fans, yet scores just as high if not higher than Battle of Gods.

The 'dropping' ratings makes even less sense since Super still ranks around 5 and 7 and so far has never dropped from the top 10. That and ratings for all anime has been down.
I came across a post a while ago stating that DBS gets bashed pretty badly on 2ch and while I can't attest if that's true or not, it seems like you see the negativity only if you dig a little deeper. Same mistake has been made for instance with Ribrianne in the Japanese fandom. The impression was that she was well liked there compared to the western audience, (I even mentioned that here), but then it turned out that it was simply because bigger DB bloggers/vloggers and reviewers found her amusing, while polls and general discussion surrounding her were just as negative as in the English speaking communities.

Please take this all with millions of grains of salt, this is just second and third hand information I gathered on my own. Might be completely wrong.

As far as ratings go, that theyhave dropped all across the board doesn't matter, the final number is still lower than it was just a year ago. To look at it as the fault of a general downward trend is actually worse, because instead of thinking about improving the product to get better ratings, it makes one think that there is nothing to be done about it, so there is no point in putting effort in a business that's not as profitable as it once was. If a movie, a couple of games, several toy lines are enough to bring money in, then that's that.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Kanious » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:41 am

I think that AT is just done with it and maybe had fights with someone on Toei. I don't think that DB will come back anytime soon. Maybe we'll have movies every now and then.

The end of the anime seems abruptly: 5 arcs, 2 are movie retellings, 2 are tournament and only one with a original villain. This really sucks.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by HeroR » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:45 am

Michsi wrote:
Basaku wrote:
Michsi wrote:an acknowledgement that the games/movies/merchandise can bring in enough money without the series, so there's no point in making it anymore.
Only to a point, we've seen the numbers for that. Nothing can bring the kind of revenue that an episodic series can.
I do think so too, unless the series itself is doing so poorly it might actually hurt the franchise more than help it. Don't think that's the case with Super, reception seems to have improved greatly since the FT arc, but I can imagine there are cases in which the series hasn't done the franchise any favors (though I don't have the numbers, Berserk anime might count as an example)
sintzu wrote:
Michsi wrote:What I hope it isn't: Toriyama loosing interest.
There was a rumor in 2016 about Toriyama maybe walking away because of its quality (and probably other reasons) but most didn't think much about it however, now that Super is ending there may be some truth to it assuming it's not ending for quality improvement reasons.

If DB returns (Fuji TV said it would) without Toriyama then we'll know that's why Super ended out of nowhere, not just in its timing but where the plot is.


We're going to have to wait and see if he makes a statement regarding this. I know he complained about the quality of the animation, but I don't remember the part about him threatening to walk away. The final episodes might help shed a light on the whole thing: if it suddenly skips to EoZ, then we know they meant to wrap up Super like this long ago and we will likely not see a new series anytime soon. As for having a series set after EoZ- something tells me that despite everything, they are still reluctant to encroach upon GT's territory. Just a feeling.
HeroR wrote: Super doesn't have that much negative reviews. It's scores around 7/8s, crashes CR, high rated on Toonami, and got nominated for CR's best on-going series of 2017. Super gets a lot of vocal hate, but it isn't reflected in the general audience. The same with Resurrection 'F' which is not regarded that well here and with other hardcore fans, yet scores just as high if not higher than Battle of Gods.

The 'dropping' ratings makes even less sense since Super still ranks around 5 and 7 and so far has never dropped from the top 10. That and ratings for all anime has been down.
I came across a post a while ago stating that DBS gets bashed pretty badly on 2ch and while I can't attest if that's true or not, it seems like you see the negativity only if you dig a little deeper. Same mistake has been made for instance with Ribrianne in the Japanese fandom. The impression was that she was well liked there compared to the western audience, (I even mentioned that here), but then it turned out that it was simply because bigger DB bloggers/vloggers and reviewers found her amusing, while polls and general discussion surrounding her were just as negative as in the English speaking communities.

Please take this all with millions of grains of salt, this is just second and third hand information I gathered on my own. Might be completely wrong.

As far as ratings go, that theyhave dropped all across the board doesn't matter, the final number is still lower than it was just a year ago. To look at it as the fault of a general downward trend is actually worse, because instead of thinking about improving the product to get better ratings, it makes one think that there is nothing to be done about it, so there is no point in putting effort in a business that's not as profitable as it once was. If a movie, a couple of games, several toy lines are enough to bring money in, then that's that.
2ch is basically 4ch and GameFaq, they runs on negativity. They're not the majority no matter how vocal they are. And we won't know how popular or hated someone like Rib is until they do an official poll like Dragon Ball Forever.

You can't just pretend Super's lower number exists in a vacuumed. No company runs like that. Otherwise, Kai would have never been cancelled since it had great ratings.
Kanious wrote:I think that AT is just done with it and maybe had fights with someone on Toei. I don't think that DB will come back anytime soon. Maybe we'll have movies every now and then.

The end of the anime seems abruptly: 5 arcs, 2 are movie retellings, 2 are tournament and only one with a original villain. This really sucks.

If that was the case, Toriyama wouldn't be writing a new movie. Toriyama would just leave like he did after doing some concepts for GT.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by DBZ_Lee » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:48 am

sintzu wrote:Didn't one of the writers say we'd get an episode focused on goten&trunks on that island ? If they did and it doesn't happen then that means it's ending abruptly which points to potential issues going on behind the scenes.
I *believe* that turned out to be someone posing as Toshio on instagram.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by TheMikado » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:06 am

Now that cooler heads will prevail I think it's time we really look at the Dragon Ball franchise and it's model. I would presume that executives are looking for sheer profitability.
When looking at the sales and licensing everyone presumes it is all immediately contributions by Super related branding. We have no such evidence of that. In fact we have thing such as Dokkan battle alone which prominently marketed GT and were highly celebrated revenue sources.

The point I'm making is that making a long-term on-going anime is expensive and it was even more expensive than average for Toei due to scheduling and overpaying staff because of it.
That said when some of their highest grossing and most popular characters come in the form of movie specials, the exec may wonder about the value of having an actual ongoing series if a similar string of films which introduce new characters could have similar results as long as they produce merchandise. We see that rehashing old characters and stories in the form of kai did not produce merchandise sells and they have yet to find a Super only related character as wildly popular as the movie stars of Beerus, Broly, or Bardock. Caulifa and Kale may be closing in on that and Hit is no slouch either, however the cost of producing a single film versus an on-going show if sufficient quality may be a challenge which isn't the best option for what they would like to achieve.

What I am saying is this: Executives may feel the profitability of the franchise may be better served through a series of films. There is no overhead of an anime yet the receive the benefits of new merchandising and licensing. This thinking makes perfect sense and is in line with the popularity of such characters as Bardock and Broly.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:11 am

Kitaro 50th anniversary is a big deal. DB fans, especially westerners not being aware of it is no concern to the producers. Kitaro aired in that timeslot, first on Wednesday nights which was the DB timeslot originally and then it shifted to Sunday mornings. It has been airing once every decade since the 60s. Now is the time which is why DBS had to go. That's all.
Last edited by Saikyo no Senshi on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Michsi » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:12 am

HeroR wrote:
2ch is basically 4ch and GameFaq, they runs on negativity. They're not the majority no matter how vocal they are. And we won't know how popular or hated someone like Rib is until they do an official poll like Dragon Ball Forever.
.
Ribrianne discussion wasn't from 2ch, but twitter from what I remember. Polls aren't always that accurate either.
You can't just pretend Super's lower number exists in a vacuumed. No company runs like that. Otherwise, Kai would have never been cancelled since it had great ratings.
And I didn't frame it like that in my post either. I specifically said the 'business' as in the TV industry as a whole. Example: Think Sony cared that other companies also faced similar losses in Walkman sales? All it did was prove that the tech was outdated and the product needed to be dropped as a whole. Kai suffered because of low merch. sales; Super has great merch sales, but is the secret behind that the anime or Xenoverse/Dokkan Battle/ the movies ? Gaming industry is on the rise, has been for a good number of years now, and they can sustain a franchise on their own. This is where I'm getting at.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by HeroR » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:18 am

Michsi wrote:
HeroR wrote:
2ch is basically 4ch and GameFaq, they runs on negativity. They're not the majority no matter how vocal they are. And we won't know how popular or hated someone like Rib is until they do an official poll like Dragon Ball Forever.
.
Ribrianne discussion wasn't from 2ch, but twitter from what I remember. Polls aren't always that accurate either.
You can't just pretend Super's lower number exists in a vacuumed. No company runs like that. Otherwise, Kai would have never been cancelled since it had great ratings.
And I didn't frame it like that in my post either. I specifically said the 'business' as in the TV industry as a whole. Example: Think Sony cared that other companies also faced similar losses in Walkman sales? All it did was prove that the tech was outdated and the product needed to be dropped as a whole. Kai suffered because of low merch. sales; Super has great merch sales, but is the secret behind that the anime or Xenoverse/Dokkan Battle/ the movies ? Gaming industry is on the rise, has been for a good number of years now, and they can sustain a franchise on their own. This is where I'm getting at.
I was talking about 2ch in general.

In the 'business', all tv ratings are down, not just Super, and even then Super has kept the same ranking and never dropped from the top 10. Which can't be said about many shows that are still running, look at Boruto or even Fairy Tail. And Xenoverse was a thing before Super and it didn't jacked the sells like Super did. Dokkan is hard to gauged since it came out the same years a Super, but even with Dokkan a lot of it's big support came from adapting stuff from Super. They even released the UI Goku card the same day UI Goku debut in the anime.

Overall, Dragon Ball exploding the way it did happened in 2015 with the released of Resurrection 'F' and Super. For reference, not even Battle of Gods kept interested that high after its release.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Totamo » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:27 am

Guys, its to focus on the movie and to rebrand the series.


The one piece movie fried Super's productions and the yugioh movie destroyed arc v and vrans.


Thats all there is to it.

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