About Gohan in the TOP

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About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Amir » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:39 am

So many Gohan fanboys who misunderstood the situation.
You want Gohan to get a fucking rage boost? Are you fucking serious? Why should he?
Don't you remember the entire reason he even got those in the first place? There is no evil sadistic motherfucker like Cell whose slowly killing his friends in order to trigger him, this is a battle for survival, no one is bad here, you need team work, strategy and power to win and survive, there was absolutely no reason for him to get a rage boost, what would he rage about?

Even Piccolo said that in a battle like this, thinking about protecting your family is not enough to win and can also be a downfall if you rely only on that. Gohan had no reason to rage, therefore, didn't. He was still doing pretty well in this tournament, came up with good strategies, fought well and brought down Universe 11's 3rd strongest member. Gohan is really fucking powerful now, almost Blue level, a power he didn't even deserve considering he trained for one day and went from below Piccolo level to almost Blue level.

I mean, what did you want him to do? Beat Jiren? Lmao. What moment could he have possibly had with Goku? This is not the Cell games. where Gohan needed some motivation to beat Cell after getting his arm jacked up or believing he can be the strognest guy ever because of his great potential bullshit, Gohan is not the strongest anymore and he shouldn't be, so what exactly was wrong with him being eliminated and the way he was eliminated?

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by sintzu » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:07 pm

I think his fans (I like him as well) wanted him to make up everything he missed out on in the previous 4 arcs and the only way to do that would've been taking down Jiren which was never going to happen. We don't even know if Goku AND Vegeta can take him down let alone Gohan.

I think they'd be a lot happier with what he did had he played a role against Zamasu, took part in Champa's tournament & did more than nearly drop dead against 1st form Freeza.

Does this arc make up for all he missed out on ? no, it'll take a lot more than this for that to happen but was it a good showing on its own ? hell yes.
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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by emperior » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:22 pm

I agree 100%. As a Gohan fan I have liked the direction they took with him. He is slowly getting back on top, he has been a key player so far and he has fought like a true warrior. Yet another rage-boost would have been lame to see. Now let's hope he will continue to stay relevant!
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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by TheLegend23 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:28 pm

Amir wrote:So many Gohan fanboys who misunderstood the situation.
You want Gohan to get a fucking rage boost? Are you fucking serious? Why should he?
Don't you remember the entire reason he even got those in the first place? There is no evil sadistic motherfucker like Cell whose slowly killing his friends in order to trigger him, this is a battle for survival, no one is bad here, you need team work, strategy and power to win and survive, there was absolutely no reason for him to get a rage boost, what would he rage about?

Even Piccolo said that in a battle like this, thinking about protecting your family is not enough to win and can also be a downfall if you rely only on that. Gohan had no reason to rage, therefore, didn't. He was still doing pretty well in this tournament, came up with good strategies, fought well and brought down Universe 11's 3rd strongest member. Gohan is really fucking powerful now, almost Blue level, a power he didn't even deserve considering he trained for one day and went from below Piccolo level to almost Blue level.

I mean, what did you want him to do? Beat Jiren? Lmao. What moment could he have possibly had with Goku? This is not the Cell games. where Gohan needed some motivation to beat Cell after getting his arm jacked up or believing he can be the strognest guy ever because of his great potential bullshit, Gohan is not the strongest anymore and he shouldn't be, so what exactly was wrong with him being eliminated and the way he was eliminated?

I think you got gohan’s rage boost lol

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:38 pm

I think they'd be a lot happier with what he did had he played a role against Zamasu
It wouldn't make sense. Had Gohan gone to the Future, he would've been obliterated by Goku Black and Zamasu. Let's be real.

I am actually glad that Gohan didn't get a nonsensical rage boost like Trunks did; which was clearly a plot device. So this guy, Trunks, was getting stomped by Super Saiyan Rosè Black, but then he got slightly angrier than normal for an instant and suddenly he could challenge Black himself? Give me a break. But i digress. My fear was that Gohan would get some random power-up that would allow him to challenge Toppo and, i dare say, even Jiren himself. I'm glad Toei didn't go that route.

Gohan placed 7th in a tournament comprised of 80 fighters. That by itself is a mastodontic achievement. But he also played a major role in the erasure of Universe 10 and Universe 6, and even got some subtle yet touching character development when he witnessed the tragic erasure of Obuni's family. And, if Jiren is defeated and Universe 7 wins the Tournament of Power, we can all thank Gohan for taking down the massive threat that Dyspo was and playing a key role in that triumph.
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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:40 pm

I really just wanted him to have a moment to shine. He had a few highlights but I never felt like we really got to see him go all out. And considering this was meant to be his "last stand" episode, he was barely in it. I was hoping we'd get a Roshi or an 18 moment where he was absolutely awesome. Instead we got a few moments he looked good but otherwise fell fairly flat to me.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Lionel » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:48 pm

I would say that as a Gohan fan myself, his role was satisfactory albeit it was far from perfect. More could have been done to flesh out his team leadership role in an efficient manner. After he instructed his group to break formation and fight on their own what semblance of instructional collaboration was all but lost until the recent episode where he worked alongside Freeza to bring Dyspo down. Another unfortunate shortfall of his character this season was the amateurish vulnerability he showed during several scenes with a need to have Piccolo intervene and even take charge; this man is supposed to represent a bright functional team leader yet he seems to be subject to the whims of his teammates. When he shines during moments like the Obuni fight and in this recent unlikely tag-team take-down of Dyspo you can really make out the promise Gohan shows when he's written decently. I just wish we could have seen that kind of Gohan throughout the entirety of the tournament. I guess for the individual writing teams some concessions had to be made in order to drum up the impact of other characters' actions.

In a tournament whose premise was allegedly going to be prioritising the unsung elements of combat like teamwork and strategy it felt as though they were lacking where they could have been very poignant. Definitely this recent episode was a great opportunity to demonstrate those traits but I was speaking more in terms of how the final opponent would be defeated. No, it doesn't have to be at the hands of Gohan, but just to see a villain finally get taken down thanks to an impressive execution of mental ability, tactics and technique from an inferior opponent would have helped to firmly cement that message, I feel.
Last edited by Lionel on Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:31 pm

It's painfully obvious that some Gohan fans don't even understand the character they supposedly like...

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Amir » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:40 pm

TheLegend23 wrote:
Amir wrote:So many Gohan fanboys who misunderstood the situation.
You want Gohan to get a fucking rage boost? Are you fucking serious? Why should he?
Don't you remember the entire reason he even got those in the first place? There is no evil sadistic motherfucker like Cell whose slowly killing his friends in order to trigger him, this is a battle for survival, no one is bad here, you need team work, strategy and power to win and survive, there was absolutely no reason for him to get a rage boost, what would he rage about?

Even Piccolo said that in a battle like this, thinking about protecting your family is not enough to win and can also be a downfall if you rely only on that. Gohan had no reason to rage, therefore, didn't. He was still doing pretty well in this tournament, came up with good strategies, fought well and brought down Universe 11's 3rd strongest member. Gohan is really fucking powerful now, almost Blue level, a power he didn't even deserve considering he trained for one day and went from below Piccolo level to almost Blue level.

I mean, what did you want him to do? Beat Jiren? Lmao. What moment could he have possibly had with Goku? This is not the Cell games. where Gohan needed some motivation to beat Cell after getting his arm jacked up or believing he can be the strognest guy ever because of his great potential bullshit, Gohan is not the strongest anymore and he shouldn't be, so what exactly was wrong with him being eliminated and the way he was eliminated?

I think you got gohan’s rage boost lol
I sure have, it's annoying. I can understand why people wouldn't like the fact that he was barely in his last episode, I too thought it was kind of stupid but he had plenty of moments to shine, he did well all in all and he was treated far better than in the Buu saga. He got to almost Blue level within one day...

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by The gr » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:57 pm

Huh is weird that Gohan Never used his rage boost in Super.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by supercat » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:28 pm

I've indicated this a handful of times in the past, but there are only so many whiny rants, pep talks, overly heroic speeches, and rage boosts that can be utilized before redundancy and boredom set in. It was the perfect time to make room for real powerhouses like Android 17 and Frieza, who might I add, also have rather appealing personas that have yet to be further explored.

But at the end of the day, Gohan's still seemingly far better of a character than Buu when all things are taken into consideration.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by precita » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:34 pm

You can tell Toriyama had no plans for Gohan in this tournament. The little things Gohan did were all Toei's doing, you can tell they wanted to make a bigger deal of him than they could.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Kataphrut » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:40 pm

Gohan supporter here, I was never expecting a rage boost from him. That would be daft, rage hasn't been a part of his character since the Cell games, and episode 88 of Super was all about Piccolo beating his old flaws out of him.

It was cool to see Gohan fighting and being a general bro in the tournament. My disappointment about his treatment comes less from his performance (which was satisfactory, he went out like a champ and it's not like he was going to beat Jiren anyway) and more about his role relative to other characters. Put simply, the way I see it, the three main characters of this arc have been Goku, Gohan and Freeza. That's as opposed to the last arc where it was Goku, Vegeta and Trunks. Goku is the protagonist and main POV of the story obviously, but Gohan had been there as the second lead pretty much all the way through, playing a role in the exhibition, getting a lot of focus in the recruitment arc, and being the (admittedly ineffectual) leader in the Tournament and having the second highest amount of screentime.

I don't mind Gohan falling where he did. I do mind that Vegeta was handed a transformation to take back that second-lead spot in the final minutes after spending the whole arc being a secondary character and a shallow caricature of his old self at that. Similarly, I mind that 17 was allowed to outlast Gohan since while both of them had big comeback arcs riding on them, Gohan was actually developing from a fall-from-grace arc set up in Resurrection F, while 17's was just "you haven't seen me in a while, check out all this cool shit I can do". It was fun, but it was shallow and he had no reason to last as long as he did, especially when you consider he was never that important a character before.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Bruma rabu » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:56 pm

precita wrote:You can tell Toriyama had no plans for Gohan in this tournament. The little things Gohan did were all Toei's doing, you can tell they wanted to make a bigger deal of him than they could.
Damn, sad to think that this is most likely the truth. It was dispointing to see him get build up to be near ssb levels but not have a big fight.
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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Zephyr » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:34 pm

Super hasn't been about Gohan at all. Since Battle of Gods, this has pretty transparently been a story about Goku, Vegeta, and Beerus. As such, the Tournament of Power was always going to be either another step along, or the culmination of, Goku and Vegeta's rivalry with Beerus and tutelage under Whis.

For one to reasonably expect Gohan to be the stealth MVP of the Tournament of Power, like he was during the Cell Games, there'd have to be sufficient set up. Him simply training again doesn't really set this up, because he's training with Piccolo, rather than the new hottest bestest training method around like he did at the Cell arc's midpoint. If they were going to subvert our expectations and have Gohan come out as number 1 again, they'd have lowkey set it up by having him train with Whis and join the journey that Goku and Vegeta are near the end of.

At least, that's how I'd expect Toriyama to have done it. Toei could have just as easily given him the same treatment they did Future Trunks, with a narratively-hollow powerup for the sake of it. I guess that'd make his cheerleading team happy, at least.
Last edited by Zephyr on Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by precita » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:38 pm

Toriyama is just continuing ignoring Gohan, Trunks and Goten since the tail-end of the Buu saga, I guess 18 years hasn't changed his mind.

Same reason Gohan spent the first 80 eps of Super doing nothing. And why Trunks/Goten are non-existent in Super. Toriyama gave up on them by the end of the Buu arc and it held true through Super. I believe Gohan's only moments of glory are due to Toei's writers who like him.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by infermon » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:08 am

Zephyr wrote:Super hasn't been about Gohan at all. Since Battle of Gods, this has pretty transparently been a story about Goku, Vegeta, and Beerus. As such, the Tournament of Power was always going to be either another step along, or the culmination of, Goku and Vegeta's rivalry with Beerus and tutelage under Whis.

For one to reasonably expect Gohan to be the stealth MVP of the Tournament of Power, like he was during the Cell Games, there'd have to be sufficient set up. Him simply training again doesn't really set this up, because he's training with Piccolo, rather than the new hottest bestest training method around like he did at the Cell arc's midpoint. If they were going to subvert our expectations and have Gohan come out as number 1 again, they'd have lowkey set it up by having him train with Whis and join the journey that Goku and Vegeta are near the end of.

At least, that's how I'd expect Toriyama to have done it. Toei could have just as easily given him the same treatment they did Future Trunks, with a narratively-hollow powerup for the sake of it. I guess that'd make his cheerleading team happy, at least.
I'm by no means a big Gohan fan. I like the guy well enough, but I think outside of the climax of the Cell arc and the early sections of the Boo arc he's one of the least fun characters in the series. I've long thought that fans of his who push for him as some badass warrior who was robbed of glory and see the scholarly side of his character as some grave mistake completely misinterpret the character. The notion that he *has* to become Goku's heir as the protector of Earth because he's super duper strong because ~genes~ always felt creepily dynastic and eugenic to me. The fact that he rejects that and gets to live peacefully with his wife and daughter as a scholar through his own free will is wonderful! In the end, Goku discovers a willing heir in Oob, training him to be a hero of his own volition. Whether Toriyama intended it or not Gohan's character arc works great as a rebuttal to the toxic "chosen one" narrative that's perpetuated our culture for centuries. I love all that. I never needed to see the fighting side of him again.

Baring all that in mind: I think it's a little disingenuous to pass him off as a bit player in this arc. He doesn't just train with Piccolo. Dude is recruited for the exhibition match immediately and ties with Lavenda instead of losing, as would have been thematically appropriate to incentivise him to train again, before Goku prattles on and on about how GREAT and STRONG he is. The episode does its best to downplay that Gohan didn't actually win, which felt like an attempt at preemptive damage control to curtail criticisms that he's a loser and not the same ULTRA SUPER BADASS he was against Cell or Boo. He's then Goku's confidant during the entire "recruitment" section of the arc, compared to Vegeta who doesn't seem that fussed about the whole thing, doesn't learn about the cosmic ramifications of losing until everyone else does, and gets like, what, one cutaway scene of him about to enter the RoSaT? Gohan, meanwhile, on top of the training episode with Piccolo, gets to spar with Goku where he fights evenly with Super Saiyan Blue and trades a blow with Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken. I'm not someone who cares about "inconsistent" power scaling in the slightest - the Kuririn and 17 recruitment episodes tracked perfectly fine for me - but seeing Gohan go toe-to-toe with Goku's strongest form definitely felt like a forced attempt to hype him up. It's followed by Goku reiterating how great Gohan is and making him the leader of team Universe 7, something that pops up out of complete nowhere. Like, zuh? The teams were supposed to have leaders now? Like, couldn't that have been a satisfying little plot thread if it were given actual setup - the Grand Priest declares the teams require captains, Goku (who doesn't want to be the leader) deliberates over who to pick, ultimately picking Gohan after he displays initiative in some combat situation in the recruitment arc? Or something? Instead no he just punches REALLY REALLY HARD and Goku's all like "damn dude I'm promoting you to this position I just made up". To top it all off, Gohan declares "My goal is an ultimate form that no one has ever seen before. I'm going to aim for that with a different method to you". It's all... really, really insincere, and really inorganic character writing, but there was SO MUCH of it that thought they had to be purposefully leading to something. I wasn't hoping it would payoff because GOHAN USED TO BE SO COOL AND NOW HES NOT AND THEY HAVE TO MAKE HIM COOL AGAIN OR I'LL CRY. I was expecting payoff because of how thick they laid it all on. They dragged a character whose conclusion I loved out of retirement for this, and then proceeded to gush about how AWESOME and VITAL he is for several episodes. It had to have purpose.

Then Sunday's episode happened. And it all amounted to... pretty much nothing. He survives for a long time, and eliminates a few guys with the help of Piccolo, and that's pretty much that. It's an impressive showing, but it didn't require the endless bombardment of hearing how great Gohan is that we got. We know Gohan is strong already. It totally stands to reason that he'd last a long time and eliminate a few guys. All that's needed was "Oh hey let's recruit Gohan I guess cuz why the hell wouldn't we". Maybe a few lines where he's like "I don't like fighting, but I have to to protect my family". And that's that. That's all. If this were a Toriyama-scripted affair I guarantee that's how it would've went down. But Toei implied there was more to it than that, and I fell for it hook, line and sinker, 'cuz I'm an absolute chump. Or maybe I just wanted to believe there was more to it than that, because otherwise this all amounts to little more than trampling on Gohan's lovely ending in the manga to appease the side of the fanbase that insists he's the bestest strong boy in the whole wide universe, and I desperately hoped it wasn't just that.

In fairness, Gohan's role this arc is a symptom, not the illness. That would be the baffling week-to-week writing and awful sense of setup and payoff. I don't even think he's the biggest victim of that this arc - Vegeta is. It just so happens his problem is the exact opposite to Gohan's. Because you're 100% right - Super is as much Vegeta's story as it is Goku's. It's the pair of them discovering and then immersing themselves in the realm of the Gods, and the consequences of that. Vegeta's absence from the story this arc has been noticeable. He does get a ton of eliminations early in the arc, he's never the focal point of an episode until he started fighting Jiren two weeks ago - the Frost and Cabba episodes are more about the Turtle Hermit and... Cabba, respectively. As I said, Gohan pretty much usurps him from the position of Goku's confidant. I honestly (and foolishly, I admit) expected him to get knocked out about midway through the tournament, based solely on the amount of screentime he gets during the recruitment material. It's about comparable to Tenshinhan and the Turtle Hermit, rather than Goku, Gohan, 17 and Freeza. Hell, with how much the recruitment stuff ALSO hammered home "It's not about strength! The most important thing about this tournament will be teamwork and strategy!" I really thought they were setting Vegeta up to pay for his folly, having been a total lone wolf and a brute the whole time, culminating in him refusing to contribute to the Genki Dama (ugh). But no - he's lasted til the end and his selfishness is rewarded with... a bluer Super Saiyan Blue? You frame the possibility of Gohan getting a narratively-hollow powerup for the sake of it as a bad thing, and I agree with that completely - but at least there'd have been some precedent for it (the nebulous "new form" he mentions in his spar with Goku). Vegeta gets nothing. It just comes outta nowhere. And honestly, with Gohan's involvement in this arc ending the way it did, I'd much rather the screentime his setup took up have gone to actual, substantive character material for Vegeta. Super's story is nearly over, and one of its two key players has gotten barely anything to work with during its final chapters. Have him grow! Have his transformation mean something! At best, Super Saiyan Even More Blue is sort of kinda if you squint a bit a culmination of his growth in the other arcs. Just... not in this one. Because he's had no growth.

So... yeah. Uh. That's my long and embarrassing ramble about a children's cartoon. In conclusion: I hope Gohan can actually retire from fighting and live a happy life with his lovely wife now.
Last edited by infermon on Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by KingKaash » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:26 am

Idk what Gohan fans wanted a rage boost but I certainly did not. I mentioned in another thread that I'm very glad Gohan did not get a new transformation because the writers were starting to hand them out like candy on Halloween. It was getting to be too much Saiyan transformations so I'm glad Gohan didn't add to the overkill
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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:04 am

Said this multiple times, but again, I think Gohan did fine. I definitely think he did not do as bad as many want to insinuate, especially considering he had been away from battle for so long.

I can't speak for all Gohan fans (I mean hey, I like him too you know), and I'm not saying angry Gohan fans should have enjoyed what they got, since they are entitled to feel however they want to feel, and I wouldn't have minded at all if Gohan got Super Saiyan Rage or something, but here's the thing: that wouldn't have made any sense, would it? Goku's the protagonist, obviously, so I won't bother explaining his case. At least for new Blue Vegeta and SS Rage Trunks, while both cases can be argued to be ridiculous, the former had been constantly fighting and training, while the latter had been fighting repeatedly over and over, building up frustration over time over his inability to handle things on his own without fleeing to the past. While that reason alone is not necessarily enough to completely justify SS Rage itself, it still doesn't remove that fact that Trunks had constantly been in battle.

Gohan, on the other hand? He'd retired from fighting completely, with his goal being a scholar and taking care of his family. He had been out of action for the vast majority of the show, and now some wanted him to grow strong enough to defeat, much less contend with, a GoD candidate who was already above SSB level at his introduction? I mean, after Toppo was confirmed to become a GoD from the first place is when I knew that the most Gohan could do was contribute to eliminating Dyspo, as there was no way he was touching Toppo after the spoilers. At least with the Cell arc, he had been training over and over, had been in battle, went through (maybe, depends on how you look at it) a traumatic experience seeing a talking head later get smashed at just over 10 years old (even though it was the head of an android he barely knew whom also wanted to kill his father, but that's none of my business).

Bottom line is, as much as I like Gohan and consider him to be the most likable of the Saiyans, he's been far away from battle and training. It just wouldn't have made a lot of sense for someone that's been sitting around, studying, going to conferences, to all of a sudden jump to this level between SSB and GoD like some were expecting.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by BrolyKale » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:26 am

I don't care about Gohan but he did what he had to do. He is outclassed now, you shouldn't expect too much from him. I think he did pretty well. You guys really wanted him to take care of Toppo or something? are you serious... even Vegeta had a hard time dealing with Toppo so Gohan couldn't do much against him. Anyway, Gohan changed and we all know that, just accept the character as he is.
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