About Gohan in the TOP

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by fadeddreams5 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:27 am

A lot of Gohan fans don't even know what they want for this character.

The issue isn't his battle power. The problem is he never developed into an interesting character after the Cell Games, and that's partially because he stopped training. Again, the issue isn't that he's not the strongest or isn't receiving super power-ups; it's that it's been embedded in the core of his character by the writers that he does not train or fight... in a series about training and fighting. And when he does, as was the case in the most recent arc, he still possesses a follower mentality around Piccolo and his dad, despite being the captain. My guess is this is a case of the writers playing it safe because those are the qualities they remember most from Gohan, so they're looking back, restricting this character's growth in the process.

What made his younger counterpart so special to me and I'm sure many other fans was the fact that he was a clean slate we saw develop into a fighter, both physically and mentally, he was relatable, and he had a mysterious power we knew would culminate into something special (and gave us many memorable scenes in the meantime). And when it finally did, we got the absolute best moment(s) in Dragon Ball history. The Cell Games arc was the pinnacle of this character, and naturally, fans gravitate towards this moment when they think about Gohan because this was it--it was the last time we saw this version of the character, when he was at his best. Immediately after this arc, we're introduced to a new version of the character. The problem here is Gohan is no longer a developing young fighter, he no longer has a hidden power, SSJ2 is no longer exclusive to him, other hybrid saiyans are more gifted than him as a kid, and he does not train. So what are we left with? A quirky superhero... no, wait. He doesn't even do this in Super. No power-up in the world can make this character interesting at this point. He's just unbearably boring because what made him interesting to begin with can't be there anymore. He been developed into a civilian devoid of any fighting spirit, and changing him back to a student, as was the case in the ToP arc, is a step backwards. Additionally, all his abilities were retconned into common saiyan traits.
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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Slaythe » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:34 am

Gohan is "Goku with a heart".

He is a typical hero in a series where the main characters are extremely selfish.

His problems are that his fights are painfully boring, since he's basically a worse version of Goku.

But I disagree that he's a boring character.

In fact, Gohan and 17 managing to be strong despite having a family and doing jobs they love is a very touching aspect of their characters. And it's also why they feel way more human than Goku and Vegeta.

I think people just expected Gohan to get a "rage Trunks" moment. The truth is that Gohan was already at peak when the TOP started. Which is fine. But it set up expectations for his fans that were not met.

And for the record Trunks is probably not stronger than him. 17 Trunks and Gohan seem to be in the exact same ball park, which is about the max regular mortals can reach without God ki.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Whatever » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:37 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:A lot of Gohan fans don't even know what they want for this character.

The issue isn't his battle power. The problem is he never developed into an interesting character after the Cell Games, and that's partially because he stopped training. Again, the issue isn't that he's not the strongest or isn't receiving super power-ups; it's that it's been embedded in the core of his character by the writers that he does not train or fight... in a series about training and fighting. And when he does, as was the case in the most recent arc, he still possesses a follower mentality around Piccolo and his dad, despite being the captain. My guess is this is a case of the writers playing it safe because those are the qualities they remember most from Gohan, so they're looking back, restricting this character's growth in the process.

What made his younger counterpart so special to me and I'm sure many other fans was the fact that he was a clean slate we saw develop into a fighter, both physically and mentally, he was relatable, and he had a mysterious power we knew would culminate into something special (and gave us many memorable scenes in the meantime). And when it finally did, we got the absolute best moment(s) in Dragon Ball history. The Cell Games arc was the pinnacle of this character, and naturally, fans gravitate towards this moment when they think about Gohan because this was it--it was the last time we saw this version of the character, when he was at his best. Immediately after this arc, we're introduced to a new version of the character. The problem here is Gohan is no longer a developing young fighter, he no longer has a hidden power, SSJ2 is no longer exclusive to him, other hybrid saiyans are more gifted than him as a kid, and he does not train. So what are we left with? A quirky superhero... no, wait. He doesn't even do this in Super. No power-up in the world can make this character interesting at this point. He's just unbearably boring because what made him interesting to begin with can't be there anymore. He been developed into a civilian devoid of any fighting spirit, and changing him back to a student, as was the case in the ToP arc, is a step backwards. Additionally, all his abilities were retconned into common saiyan traits.
How exactly?Character wise Gohan was at his worst at the Cell games,character traits like his pacifism poping out of nowhere which does not fit with his established character at this point and also contradicts his reasoning for training to begin with.
And thats only about his character,not even counting how unorganically he was brought into the spotlight after he has spent 5/6 of the Cell saga being background decoration.
In the end of the Cell games he learnt a lesson he already knew before he entered the HTC which i guess he forgot.

You know damn well that the reason fans gravitate towards this moment is because its his best moment/accomplishment since before this point of the story Gohan was pretty much just a stronger Krillin in terms of role.
Also i found it funny how you point out how all those 'interesting' characterestics Gohan had was pretty much his potential or power,not the character himself.

Also the reason he propably has a follower mentality around Piccolo and his dad was because most of the time he was being saved by either of them in each saga of dbz.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Michsi » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:02 am

Whatever wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:A lot of Gohan fans don't even know what they want for this character.

The issue isn't his battle power. The problem is he never developed into an interesting character after the Cell Games, and that's partially because he stopped training. Again, the issue isn't that he's not the strongest or isn't receiving super power-ups; it's that it's been embedded in the core of his character by the writers that he does not train or fight... in a series about training and fighting. And when he does, as was the case in the most recent arc, he still possesses a follower mentality around Piccolo and his dad, despite being the captain. My guess is this is a case of the writers playing it safe because those are the qualities they remember most from Gohan, so they're looking back, restricting this character's growth in the process.

What made his younger counterpart so special to me and I'm sure many other fans was the fact that he was a clean slate we saw develop into a fighter, both physically and mentally, he was relatable, and he had a mysterious power we knew would culminate into something special (and gave us many memorable scenes in the meantime). And when it finally did, we got the absolute best moment(s) in Dragon Ball history. The Cell Games arc was the pinnacle of this character, and naturally, fans gravitate towards this moment when they think about Gohan because this was it--it was the last time we saw this version of the character, when he was at his best. Immediately after this arc, we're introduced to a new version of the character. The problem here is Gohan is no longer a developing young fighter, he no longer has a hidden power, SSJ2 is no longer exclusive to him, other hybrid saiyans are more gifted than him as a kid, and he does not train. So what are we left with? A quirky superhero... no, wait. He doesn't even do this in Super. No power-up in the world can make this character interesting at this point. He's just unbearably boring because what made him interesting to begin with can't be there anymore. He been developed into a civilian devoid of any fighting spirit, and changing him back to a student, as was the case in the ToP arc, is a step backwards. Additionally, all his abilities were retconned into common saiyan traits.
How exactly?Character wise Gohan was at his worst at the Cell games,character traits like his pacifism poping out of nowhere which does not fit with his established character at this point and also contradicts his reasoning for training to begin with.
And thats only about his character,not even counting how unorganically he was brought into the spotlight after he has spent 5/6 of the Cell saga being background decoration.
In the end of the Cell games he learnt a lesson he already knew before he entered the HTC which i guess he forgot.

You know damn well that the reason fans gravitate towards this moment is because its his best moment/accomplishment since before this point of the story Gohan was pretty much just a stronger Krillin in terms of role.
Also i found it funny how you point out how all those 'interesting' characterestics Gohan had was pretty much his potential or power,not the character himself.

Also the reason he propably has a follower mentality around Piccolo and his dad was because most of the time he was being saved by either of them in each saga of dbz.
\

I agree that the Cell Saga does a pretty poor job in building up Gohan's big moment, but there is one thing that I will always feel the need to address when the issue is being brought up. Gohan was not being a pacifist in that moment. He is more than ok with using force when it's necessary and even in Cell's case he was willing to go fight. He is not trying to convince Cell to give up on his life of crime, he is warning him of what's going to happen once he gets mad, which is what Goku's plan was from the start. It only failed because Gohan couldn't bring himself to look past his father's recklessness, something he himself probably couldn't have predicated.
I feel like the dub is mostly to blame with this misconception about Gohan's pacifism.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by fadeddreams5 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:15 pm

Whatever wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:A lot of Gohan fans don't even know what they want for this character.

The issue isn't his battle power. The problem is he never developed into an interesting character after the Cell Games, and that's partially because he stopped training. Again, the issue isn't that he's not the strongest or isn't receiving super power-ups; it's that it's been embedded in the core of his character by the writers that he does not train or fight... in a series about training and fighting. And when he does, as was the case in the most recent arc, he still possesses a follower mentality around Piccolo and his dad, despite being the captain. My guess is this is a case of the writers playing it safe because those are the qualities they remember most from Gohan, so they're looking back, restricting this character's growth in the process.

What made his younger counterpart so special to me and I'm sure many other fans was the fact that he was a clean slate we saw develop into a fighter, both physically and mentally, he was relatable, and he had a mysterious power we knew would culminate into something special (and gave us many memorable scenes in the meantime). And when it finally did, we got the absolute best moment(s) in Dragon Ball history. The Cell Games arc was the pinnacle of this character, and naturally, fans gravitate towards this moment when they think about Gohan because this was it--it was the last time we saw this version of the character, when he was at his best. Immediately after this arc, we're introduced to a new version of the character. The problem here is Gohan is no longer a developing young fighter, he no longer has a hidden power, SSJ2 is no longer exclusive to him, other hybrid saiyans are more gifted than him as a kid, and he does not train. So what are we left with? A quirky superhero... no, wait. He doesn't even do this in Super. No power-up in the world can make this character interesting at this point. He's just unbearably boring because what made him interesting to begin with can't be there anymore. He been developed into a civilian devoid of any fighting spirit, and changing him back to a student, as was the case in the ToP arc, is a step backwards. Additionally, all his abilities were retconned into common saiyan traits.
How exactly?Character wise Gohan was at his worst at the Cell games,character traits like his pacifism poping out of nowhere which does not fit with his established character at this point and also contradicts his reasoning for training to begin with.
And thats only about his character,not even counting how unorganically he was brought into the spotlight after he has spent 5/6 of the Cell saga being background decoration.
In the end of the Cell games he learnt a lesson he already knew before he entered the HTC which i guess he forgot.

You know damn well that the reason fans gravitate towards this moment is because its his best moment/accomplishment since before this point of the story Gohan was pretty much just a stronger Krillin in terms of role.
Also i found it funny how you point out how all those 'interesting' characterestics Gohan had was pretty much his potential or power,not the character himself.

Also the reason he propably has a follower mentality around Piccolo and his dad was because most of the time he was being saved by either of them in each saga of dbz.
I'm not going to open that "Gohan being OoC in the Cell Games" can of worms, as it's a debate on a dozen other threads, but I will agree that the build-up to that moment was very bad. I meant "pinnacle" in the sense that this was the moment. The one we knew would happen since it was revealed he had a hidden power, and it delivered by being almost unanimously considered one of the, if not the, greatest moment in the franchise. Forget the "pacifism". After Gohan transforms, he loses control of himself, becomes a borderline sadist, indirectly leads to the death of his father, loses his resolve at the brink of the end of the world, and gains it back thanks to his dad. None of this is endearing, but it was executed amazingly well, and should have served as a point of development for the character: get your shit together; your dad is dead now, and you are the strongest being in the universe.

Instead, he stops training altogether, is written as a weaker character who doesn't fight (in a show about fighting) and still follows others, his form from the Cells Games is relegated to a normal saiyan transformation, and even his "rage boost" isn't exclusive or unique. It's the equivalent of giving every member of the Justice League the Flash's speed, and giving him less screen time because he's a full time scholar now. Seriously, Adult Gohan has not a single unique ability or quality. When he's finally given powers out of his ass, he reverts back to being cocky and getting absorbed. You just can't redeem this character. Super also made him worse by getting rid of the Superhero thing, completely changing Videl's character, and having him need to regain his fighting sense for the billionth time, so he now has the personality of a cardboard box during the day and a perpetually insecure individual at night.

As for the interesting characteristics I mentioned, yes, he's like Krillin in a sense. But Krillin is a likable character, and relatable, as was Kid Gohan. Potential does indeed make a character more interesting, especially when said character has a hidden ability that allowed him, as a toddler, to injure a Space Pirate the two strongest beings on his planet couldn't scratch. But potential aside, in the first arc up until the Namek saga, we saw him grow from inexperienced toddler who crumbled under pressure to young fighter who'd risk his life to save others. He was a little kid, and his growth made him endearing to me. As an established adult, this is lost, and what we get is what we get for good, and it was disappointment personified.
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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by ulisa » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:36 pm

What made Gohan interesting to me is the fact that he was a blend of both Saiyan and earthling traits. He likes to spar with his father (which we see multiple times—he likes it) but he doesn’t like to fight just for the purpose of fighting. He likes to protect others. He likes to explore and learn, especially nature and with animals. That is a fun mix of alien and earth right there. They build him up to be taking the mantle from his father without being a complete copy which is really a nice angle to take. Him being trained by his father’s arch rival and then later by his father himself really makes him a great mix of their two techniques while maintaining the gentle heart that’s his alone.

Unfortunately, it seems like the series drops the “Saiyan” side of him once the Cell Games are over. I won’t get into whether Gohan was OOC or not in the Cell Games as I suspect people will debate that forever but I’ll be the first to admit that I never bought his “I want to be a scholar” but not just because I don’t think it’s interesting but because I don’t think the character’s actions support it. It sounds like something ChiChi wants so Gohan went with it to please her. I only start seeing interest in learning at the very end of Z where they push that scholar angle to death. The rest of the series, I see someone that likes to explore, who enjoys the abilities that learning ki and martial arts teach him, who enjoys passing those abilities onto others and who studies because he has to not because he wants to. Gohan can “say” he loves studying all he wants but when his actions don’t back it up, I have a hard time believing it.

Gohan at the beginning of the Buu saga feels like a completely different character than his younger self. I’ve always felt that the development they did from his younger self to his older self just didn’t feel genuine. It doesn’t seem like that’s the way he would turn out. Gohan was not shy before about training to fight because he knew he needed to. Given that he lost his father, I would think that would give him even more reason to continue to train and be strong. Honestly, the only explanation I have seen presented for the reason he stopped training that makes sense to me was in a fan fiction which took the angle of any form of training reminded him of his father and specifically his father’s death so it became too painful to do.

So, my issue with Gohan in Super is that it just doesn’t feel like the angle this character would go. It feels like a different character than the kid we encounter in the Namek, Saiyan and Android sagas And it didn’t have to be. They had a great build up going for Gohan and it will akways feel like they wasted it to me.
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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Zephyr » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:12 pm

infermon wrote:*snip*
Agreed on pretty much everything.

Looking back at all of those little bits of dangling fruits, most of which I'd admittedly forgotten about, I can see people expecting something from the guy. In particular, him teasing something even stronger, the specific wording and episode number I don't remember so I can't double check for full clarity. Nonetheless, I can definitely see the anticipation for something, some kind of good show.

I think he did get a pretty good show, though. While we didn't get some new form from him, he certainly performed well. He was in the top five of our team, and the top eight of the entire tournament. It was very small, very brief, and would have benefited from a bigger part, but his scene after eliminating Obuni was almost a really awesome character moment. He wasn't playing some bit role, like the bulk of people in the tournament were, but he also wasn't the big savior of the arc. Recruitment hype aside, that's about what I expected for him. I was honestly surprised, even at the time, that so many people were drinking the kool-aid, so to speak.

And again, he didn't even train with Whis. He indeed boasted that he'd "find his own way", but he's not Vegeta, the king of "finding his own way", so I honestly didn't put much stock into that. Had Cell arc Gohan acquired Super Saiyan all on his own, without training in the Room of Spirit and Time, I'd say "sure, Gohan's just got a knack for this shit". But he never did. The expectation that Gohan's going to do some off the wall shit never really set in, despite what the writers were clearly (probably unwittingly and accidentally) setting up. I'll give you that at the end of that specific recruitment episode, where he proclaims that he'll get even stronger, I expected him to bust something new out later on. But I'd forgotten that the very next week, and hadn't paid it any mind until after he'd finally been eliminated and people began expressing their distaste for him not doing the thing. I think that's telling.

You're right, though, that the writing is horrendous. I think I'd just come to expect it so much, by this point, that Gohan not amounting to that much in the end hardly caught me by surprise. The weekly schedule could be a huge part of it. We don't know the precise nature of Toriyama's drafts, but it's clearly no substitute for an actual fleshed out skeleton, like the original anime had in the original manga. They seem to just throw in all sorts of random plot beats and set ups that end up leading nowhere, oftentimes just repeating them, just to pad out a weekly serial. Krillin getting his confidence back twice wasn't necessary. Freeza threatening to betray his team several times (once before the tournament even started) wasn't necessary. This is one of the things that has me preferring the manga overall: it's more focused, has less baggage.

The recruitment section, even at the time, felt so all over the place, meandering and wasting time on characters who didn't need it, and neglecting characters who would have benefited greatly from some preliminary introduction. Seeing Dr. Paparoni be the big mastermind in Universe 3 was a fun surprise during the weekly watch I do; on a rewatch, though, I think that's inevitably going to track poorly. This is especially problematic because we have to care about these other universes for there to be believable tension. This story may take place before Goku leaves with Uub, but it's created after, and by all accounts, that's still going to happen. So the fate of our universe is already set in stone, and as a result, their survival (read: not their victory) is a foregone conclusion. If they wanted this stuff to be more engaging, they would have put more time into getting us to care about the other universes. And while we got some, we could have used a lot more, and a great deal of what we did get was useless. Show us Obuni and his family, rather than everyone in robes shooting a GodTube video. Give us some of their personalities, their motivations, their doubts, their hopes, what they fight for. Make us not want to root squarely for the only people we know will be okay.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by precita » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:32 pm

Toriyama just doesn't care. All the aspects with Gohan in Super are probably due to Toei's writers who like him and push him as much as they can, but Toriyama's scripts said Gohan wasn't in the final fights with Jiren or Toppo, so Toei had no choice but to make him lose.

Toriyama should either retire again or step back. It's like how Sakurai refuses to allow Ridley in Smash Bros. as a playable character. Get rid of the old guard and the changes will come.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Kagari » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:33 pm

precita wrote:Toriyama just doesn't care. All the aspects with Gohan in Super are probably due to Toei's writers who like him and push him as much as they can, but Toriyama's scripts said Gohan wasn't in the final fights with Jiren or Toppo, so Toei had no choice but to make him lose.

Toriyama should either retire again or step back. It's like how Sakurai refuses to allow Ridley in Smash Bros. as a playable character. Get rid of the old guard and the changes will come.
Toriyama still signs off on the anime.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by infermon » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:59 pm

Zephyr wrote:(to borrow your parlance - *snip*)
Yup, yup and double yup.

Honestly, I don't blame you forgetting about the dangling threads from Gohan's setup during the recruitment material. With how many other characters of note from that section of the arc got eliminated so unceremoniously - Kuririn, Nigrisshi, Kahseral, Murichim, Narirama - it was probably fairly obvious that Toei had completely abandoned adhering to their own setup. It was honestly so egregious I wondered if they were actively trying to mimic Toriyama's loose, seat-of-your-pants writing style at times. Hey, people love when Toriyama subverts expectations, so we should subvert some expectations by just throwing away setup! People won't see that coming. Of course, the key difference is that Toriyama a) knew his limitations and never tried keeping this many balls in the air b) made sure his subversions had ramifications in the ongoing story and weren't just cheap twists for a twist's sake c) always managed to tie everything together satisfyingly on a thematic level, if not always on a narrative one. Not to mention the fact that there's less of an excuse on Toei's part, considering they had the entire plot outline laid out for them on the start. Or did they? I honestly really wonder. When people talk about Super's awful production schedule it's usually in reference to the animation and direction of the series, but I'm really curious how it's impacted the writers. That element of the show really feels like it suffers from a lack of proper oversight and communication. I don't mean to disparage the writers themselves here, nor when I criticise the writing in Super as a whole - it's thankless work and I'm sure they're trying their damndest to make it all work in spite of the schedule working against them.

S'yeah, the fact I clung to Gohan's setup as hard as I did after the show made it clear repeatedly that it thinks setup is for schmucks is totally my fault. It's really just because that setup felt so insincere and was such a sticking point during that portion of the arc that I thought it had to payoff to make it worth it. Not that poor setup is excused by good payoff, mind. It just would've helped make that particular bitter pill a bit easier to swallow on rewatches. As it stands Gohan does pretty damn well for himself in the tournament, he gets some decent character material to work with during the main event, and if they hadn't hyped him up to the hyperbolic extent that they did I don't think anyone would have had much to complain about. And in the end, all it really means is 2-3 episodes worth of material in this arc were, ultimately, in service of something insubstantial that probably should've gone to something else. That... may not seem like much, especially in an arc that's over 50 episodes. And it's not. But those aren't the only episodes that felt like a meandering waste of time. It's just more fuel to the fire. As I mentioned, Gohan's characterisation this arc was a symptom, and not the illness. I could ramble about how his character was handled this arc 'til the cows come home, but that would just be in service of missing the broader structural issues that this arc suffers from.

And yeah, god, what a wasted opportunity that recruitment section was. I'm glad you mention Obuni and Paparoni, because they stick out like sore thumbs. Obuni's fight with Gohan was one of the few (much-needed) moments of poignancy in this arc, but it would've been so much more effective if we'd met his family. Up until that episode he was just another face in the crowd. Nigrisshi and Narirama's scene wasn't exactly the pinnacle of Super's character writing. It was perfunctory exposition. But it was something. At the very least we get to learn of their existence ahead of time, so when the tournament starts it's like "Oh, cool, characters I actually know among this crowd of randos! I'll watch them with interest, as the story has indicated I should do". Yet... nada. Then there's Paparoni. An evil scientist with a legion of robots to do his bidding, on the same team as a superhero? There's a story to be told there! There's a fun establishing scene where you see Katopesla attempt to thwart his nemesis's evil plans and fight his mechanical minions... before Mosco and co. crash the scene and are just like "hey your petty squabble doesn't matter, come fight in a tournament for us". But no. Granted, Toriyama didn't flesh out every single one of his tournament arcs' participants. But he knew when characterisation was important. A character like Bacterian is a self-explanatory gag, and doesn't need setup. Namu, on the other hand, is a more serious and sympathetic character, so we're introduced to who he is and what his motivations are ahead of time, instead of him explaining his backstory midway through his match with Goku where we've passed the point of caring. This is basic stuff, yet Toei do the exact opposite with Murichim and Obuni, for reasons incomprehensible to me. And I'm not saying establishing your simpler gag characters ahead of time is a big no-no, nor am I saying every scene needs to advance the story. I love Giran's filler in the anime adaptation of the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, for example, and Super does a great job with Ribrianne's introductory scene, which is absent from Toyotaro's version. But those scenes add something. Giran meekly surrendering is made funnier by his tough guy act in the bar. Ribrianne's scene is amusing and well animated, and getting to meet her before the tournament means she's less likely to get lost in the crowd of new faces once the main event starts. "Filler" doesn't have to mean wasting time. It's just that this arc decided that, 70% of the time, it did. Like, back to the topic of Gohan - the idea of using filler to flesh him out isn't even an inherently bad one or anything. Have him conflicted about having to fight again after retiring happily, before deciding he has a responsibility to help whether he likes it or not. Have an episode about that. Have an episode about anything that adds actual texture to his character. The episode where he trains with Piccolo is the closest we got to that. Recontextualising "Ultimate Gohan" as a cocky asshole who lost due to his own arrogance? That's genuinely interesting! The rest of the time, though... blegh.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Whatever » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:34 am

fadeddreams5 wrote: I'm not going to open that "Gohan being OoC in the Cell Games" can of worms, as it's a debate on a dozen other threads, but I will agree that the build-up to that moment was very bad. I meant "pinnacle" in the sense that this was the moment. The one we knew would happen since it was revealed he had a hidden power, and it delivered by being almost unanimously considered one of the, if not the, greatest moment in the franchise. Forget the "pacifism". After Gohan transforms, he loses control of himself, becomes a borderline sadist, indirectly leads to the death of his father, loses his resolve at the brink of the end of the world, and gains it back thanks to his dad. None of this is endearing, but it was executed amazingly well, and should have served as a point of development for the character: get your shit together; your dad is dead now, and you are the strongest being in the universe.
Even with Gohan's pacifism aside,Gohan learnt nothing at the Cell games or rather he relearned something he knew,his whole reason for going in the HTC was because he got his shit together and wanted to be strong without having to rely on Goku and Piccolo,which the Cell games fails even thematically as he needed to be saved and had Goku hold his hand through it.
Instead, he stops training altogether, is written as a weaker character who doesn't fight (in a show about fighting) and still follows others, his form from the Cells Games is relegated to a normal saiyan transformation, and even his "rage boost" isn't exclusive or unique.
Keep in mind that Goku became a super saiyan because of rage as well,super saiyan was his 'rage boost' at that moment,you know before it stopped being unique and was being given to every saiyan after this.
It's the equivalent of giving every member of the Justice League the Flash's speed, and giving him less screen time because he's a full time scholar now. Seriously, Adult Gohan has not a single unique ability or quality.
Does Superman being fast as well ruin Flash?If not i don't see how it ruins his character,especially in a series like db where no matter how strong you get,somebody will always be stronger.
Its not like Namek Freeza(who was special because he was so strong)got his character ruined or what it stood for because he was fodder next arc.
Nobody no matter how strong he is,is actually really special in db when looking at the whole picture.
Giving him less screen time when his goal does not collerate with fighting makes sense,unlike the Cell and Buu arc where Gohan was shoehorned into the action despite having no connection to the plot.

Just because Gohan had a gimmick that does not mean his character is ruined because other people have such gimmick.
If his character is ruined for you because his gimmick is not unique anymore,then that means you liked his gimmick more than his character.
When he's finally given powers out of his ass, he reverts back to being cocky and getting absorbed. You just can't redeem this character. Super also made him worse by getting rid of the Superhero thing, completely changing Videl's character, and having him need to regain his fighting sense for the billionth time, so he now has the personality of a cardboard box during the day and a perpetually insecure individual at night.
So just like Cell games Gohan,which you praise.Cell games Gohan was not the pinnacle of his charcter,it was the pinnacle of his gimmick because for once his rage boost ammounted to something and thats something was grand,which is his best accomplishment and overshadows his badly written characterization in this arc.

Super actually developed Gohan without regressing him unlike the Cell Games and actually tackled the issues he had both in the Buu and Cell saga.
Outside of rage boosts,thats who Gohan always is,a bookworm that is a normal person,if you find that boring then of course it will never change because thats who Gohan always was.
As for the interesting characteristics I mentioned, yes, he's like Krillin in a sense. But Krillin is a likable character, and relatable, as was Kid Gohan. Potential does indeed make a character more interesting, especially when said character has a hidden ability that allowed him, as a toddler, to injure a Space Pirate the two strongest beings on his planet couldn't scratch.
That sounds to me that you liked the idea of Gohan's character more than his character itself.
But potential aside, in the first arc up until the Namek saga, we saw him grow from inexperienced toddler who crumbled under pressure to young fighter who'd risk his life to save others. He was a little kid, and his growth made him endearing to me. As an established adult, this is lost, and what we get is what we get for good, and it was disappointment personified.
Yes his development from the first arc until the Namek saga was good because it felt organic(including his inclusion to the plot),something that is lost in the Cell Games,Cell Games Gohan is a flanderization of what Namek Gohan's character stood for.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by shadowmaria » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:45 am

I was just glad that mah boi Gohan was back and having fights.

Can't wait to hear Kyle Hebert deliver these fight scenes

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Peripuff » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:44 am

Personally, I feel like Gohan performed outstandingly well in the ToP. People keep undermining the fact that he had done so many things just because they wanted him to win or get a transformation or something.

I rewatched the ToP recently and here is a list of Gohan's accomplishments:

Saving Krillin from Jium's blast
Eliminating Botamo
Eliminating Obuni (Thus erasing U10)
Found out how Prum's reflectors work and where Hermila and Prum are
Helped trick Frost into getting eliminated
Saving Piccolo from Pirina's blast
Eliminated Saonel and Pirina (Thus erasing U6)
Was able to reveal Gamisaras for Piccolo to eliminate
Defeat Koichiarator (Albeit temporarily)
Helped defeat Aniraza (Thus erasing U3)
Saved Freeza from elimination
Limited Dyspo's movement
Caused Dyspo to be eliminated
Got 7th place in the ToP

His accomplishment list is larger than every other character besides Goku and maybe Vegeta. Gohan definitely lived up to all of his build up, and before anyone says anything, that line about going in a different path to Goku and Vegeta to get stronger was more about him saying he would improve his mystic form and improve without transformations, his planning and brains allowed Botamo, Obuni, Saonel, Pirina, Gamisaras and Dyspo to be eliminated, and his leadership at the beginning of the tournament probably allowed Tien, Roshi and Krillin to last longer than they would have without his leadership. I am completely satisfied with what Gohan has accomplished, and he is in my top 3 favourite characters (behind his brother and 17). 7th out of 80 is incredible, he outlasted 90% of the competition.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by precita » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:52 am

I feel like this is it for Gohan. If/when Dragonball comes back from hiatus, I don't think he'll be a fighter in the next arc. Seems to me this was one last hurrah for fans of his character who were upset he did nothing in Super so far, and well...this is all we'll get. We never even got to see Goku and Gohan fight side by side, Gohan has officially lost the "co-lead" character status he had back in DBZ.

Gohan is done. I had high hopes for the TOP for him but even I can't pretend he's going to get any better than this. He might as well be the next Tien.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Araki » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:06 am

precita wrote:We never even got to see Goku and Gohan fight side by side, Gohan has officially lost the "co-lead" character status he had back in DBZ.
And did we ever see Goku and Gohan fighting side by side before? The Anilaaza fight was probably the closest thing ever.
One could argue vs Vegeta in the Saiyan arc, but Goku was down already when Gohan went back.

I think it's kind of amusing how some Gohan fans went from "I just want him to fight again and do something" to "I want him to be the MVP of the ToP! and get a new transformation! and Blanco Gohan! and... ".
Thankfully the most reasonable people are satisfied. Heck, if we think back to the U7 eliminations, no one before him went down in a blaze of glory, exactly. That could very well be Toriyama's doing.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by gofishus » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:47 pm

I think its odd that Future Trunks got rage boosted in Super and Gohan never did. But lets face it - Z is a better anime than Super.
I dont think anyone is going to disagree with this. Out of DB, Z, Super and GT, the gold standard and what makes the Dragonball franchise so popular and helped make anime popular worldwide is DragonBall Z. And part of that reason is that Z was so good at focusing on various characters, not just Goku and Vegeta which is what Super was up until the ToP... until all the other universes dropped out, then its back to the Goku + Vegeta show again (at least Frieza keeps things interesting).

In the Saiyan Saga, we got showings from Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin and even Yajirobe got his moment. In the Namek saga, Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, Vegeta and Finally Goku again all had a turn against Frieza. The Cell arc is what really got interesting because probably for the first and last time ever, a character that was not Goku, was the most powerful character in the show. That was Gohan. To this day, I think SSJ2 Teen Gohan in the Cell Arc + Bojack Movie was the most badass character in all of Dragonball. He just didn't give a F about anyone. He toyed around with Cell, kicked Cell Jrs in half, and punched his fist through Bojack. That was Gohan's peak. I don't think that Gohan is ever coming back.

In the Buu Saga, Goten + Trunks got their moment to shine with Gotenks, and of course Vegeta redeemed himself, all while saving the galaxy from Majin Buu. Gohan had his part in there too briefly until he got absorbed.

Super doesn't come close to any of this. Except for Ultra Instinct I don't think any of the other transformations really had the same impact as in Z. The focus is mainly on Vegeta and Goku. Gohan and the others get left behind. Goten+Trunks are completely forgotten about. I feel the same way about this anime as I do about Star Wars the Last Jedi: the visuals are exciting and the nostalgia kick is great, but it ruins my childhood in a lot of ways. I feel like they disrespected some of the characters that we grew up on. TLJ disrespected Luke Skywalker in the same way that Super disrespected Gohan. What I'm saying I guess is that I want more fan service. I don't want my character kicked to the curb like a weakling.. but I guess childhood nostalgia can only last for so long...

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by GohanHiddenPowers » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:02 pm

Well, i'm with the people who aren't conformists with what Gohan received in Dragon Ball Super. And if we look back to Dragon Ball Z, to the first OVA (with Garlik Jr, Gohan sending that Namekuseijin to another the Dark Dimension), the 13 movies, the 291 episodes, well... a character like this being sidelined because of some tendency of animes to have these rivalries like "Sasuke x Naruto" from Kishimoto's manga(in DBS, we have the joke about the Goku and Vegeta" show)... well i think the character and the fandom deserved something better. Characters like Future Trunks and Android 17 had better treatment than Gohan, and they are not as important as him as a whole in the franchise, that's for sure, at least for me. Well, we can like the crumbs that toei throws to us, we can congretulate the animation team, some scenes of Gohan figthing Goku when Goku was recruiting, or Gohan fighting the robots, are beautiful to see... but if we think that's the end for the franchise, at least for now, and we have to wait another year to see another series, and we will not be seeing much of the character in the new movie... then we did not had much in the ToP (the only time where we see Gohan back to the action, the final arc of Super).

Well, everything changes if the character continues to be involved, if the franchise comes back, after this "hiatus". I never liked this nerd side of Gohan, because i think this has much of Chi Chi's will involved. Yeah, Gohan is not a battle lover like Goku and Vegeta, but he likes to fight (he has saiyan's blood on his veins after all) and more than that, he likes to defend, to protect. I think Gohan has two sides (if you think, he really has, because he is a hybrid), the "side with glasses" that values wisdom, intellect, human kindness, and the side that shows the power, the will to fight, to protect people/live beings, the earth. I will always think of Gohan as a top 3 character, with Goku and Vegeta, and Super has not changed this thinking. The franchsie as a whole is bigger than Super, and the producers know this. The games, the merchandises, always have the most beloved characters at the frontlines (the top 3, and the villains), to sell. And i'm not talking about Japan only. I'm talking about Europe, South America, North America, etc.

Sorry for any mistake, English is not my natural language.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by SsjCookie » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:38 am

Gohan did as well as I expected him to be, people shouldn't expect him to be on Goku's or Vegeta's level anyway.
He hasn't trained a single day since DBZ ended you know?!
Gohan is a guy who wants to live his life as a normal human with his wife, daughter and job.
He has incredible potential but that doesn't mean anything if he lacks the passion to use it.
Gohan could outclass both his father and Vegeta if he really wanted to but he doesn't, we'll just have to accept that.

I suspect that Gohan will have his moment in the future but just, not now....it would be undeserved if he just popped into SSJ blue out of nowhere.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Puaru » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:48 am

I still sometimes think: when we left the world of Dragon Ball back at the Buu saga (GT never counted IMO) Gohan was the strongest major character.

Nowadays he is surpassed by Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, 17 and Future Trunks, and with absolutely no indication that this is ever about to change.

That's just fucking lame. Gohan sucks.

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Re: About Gohan in the TOP

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:28 pm

I never really asked for much from Gohan from this arc as a whole. I thought he did very good in the tournament. He didn't really over perform, but at the same time he didn't really underperform, and in the end, went out on his own terms following his own well though out plan. I am a quite sad that this never really went anywhere.

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