With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overal series?

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:47 am

Kaboom wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:And what gives you the right to dictate that my opinions are wrong

This is an open forum for everyone can state their opinion. Disagreements happen. I can't disagree or make educated generalizations about what I've observed?
Please take a closer look at what VegettoEX actually wrote. You are not being persecuted for your opinions, you are being chided for your behavior. In practically all regards, we don't care what opinions one has to share here about Dragon Ball. We just expect everyone to share them kindly and patiently with each other. Making broad and crass generalizations about people or communities doesn't jive here.
ps I do apologize

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by TheZFighter » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:32 am

Although I've really enjoyed having regular Dragon Ball again, I found it pretty "meh" till we got to the Tournament of Power, which I've really, really enjoyed.
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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by mute_proxy » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:46 am

I'd like to quote Ajay's opinion on Super from his Curious Cat profile, which I generally agree with
Don't particularly care for it. It's introduced some great new characters and concepts, and that puts it well above GT for me, but it's done absolutely nothing interesting with any of them. The storytelling is embarrassingly poor. If they wrap the show up in March, then that was a colossal waste of a series.

As far as the Tournament of Power goes, I like to call it "an arc of moments". Cool shit happens in episodes here and there, and the animation has mostly been solid, but it's not a story. It's an episodic excuse to see characters transform and punch each other for no reason. It's what people who aren't fans of Dragon Ball think Dragon Ball is. It's a WWE parody of Dragon Ball. It might be entertaining here and there, but fuck me, when it's not - and that's often - it's so boring.

We got a mediocre retelling of Battle of Gods, a solid bridge into a dreadful retelling of Resurrection F, a stupidly short and underdeveloped tournament, a trash-tier filler arc, an almost genuinely great arc that fell to pieces at the end, and then 'Padding: The Arc' before the Snorenament of Power feat. literally Broli began. Yeah... No, thanks.

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by MajinMan » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:59 am

I mean, couldn’t we have waited like 6 more weeks before making this thread? There’s like a 99% chance a new thread that asks this exact same thing is going to be made once Super ends.
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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:14 am

I can only wish people will forget about this series in few years.
Except for few scenes i didn't enjoy anything in it.
Current arc is so bad it actually made me stop watching series and that's something i never expected from DB. Even from Super.

Some people like to say "SSJ4 is the only good thing from GT".
Now i can safely say "Hit is the only good thing from Super".
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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overal series?

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:54 am

Saturnine wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
I also hated how they always had to have Vegeta be equal with Goku. It's Goku's show, not Vegetas.
Weird thing to hate, really - especially considering how big Vegeta's role's been throughout Super.

Also take into account the extended periods of Goku's absence in Z. OG DB was Goku's show, sure, but you can't act as if you expect this of Super, and are disappointed because it doesn't provide enough of that in your opinion. GT made Goku the only character useful in a fight, nobody was happy about that. And now everyone's bitching about how Vegeta refuses to forever accept his supposed inferiority to Kakarot - which oh my gosh - results in him actually not being weaker than Kakarot! I've always considered this complaint kinda insolent of people. That's basically like being mad at someone arbitrarily designated a jobber (even though he's officially not one) for refusing to job and actually winning. It's the petty, mean type of indignation.

Oh, and Goku never defeated Vegeta in a 1 on 1 fight, just sayin'
I can understand if thats a weird thing for fans of Vegeta. Nothing wrong with being a Vegeta fan. The fact Dragon Ball has so many memorable charcaters to get behind is really cool. However I know I'm not alone in my feelings. A lot of people don't like that Super OP'd Vegeta. The fact that Vegeta is the only secondary character who seems to exist in Super is something that's very disappointing for me and many others

I agree that GT focused too much on Goku,

BUT Where GT was too Goku centric, Super is too Vegeta centric

And let's not forget that for a while Super was anti-Goku as well.

Makes me wonder if that was Toyotaro's influence on the anime, or if at the begining Toei just wasnt listening to Toriyama's outlines.

Obviously we now know that Toei started treating the word of Toriyama as god, so that explains why the recent tournament of power arc finally made Goku great again as per Toriyama's canon transcripts.

Anyways both GT and Super are on the opposite extremes of each other. There needs to be a balance.

Dragon Ball is a show about Goku, so it should always slant more heavily in Goku's favor.

The biggest problem with Super is that they gave Vegeta all this shine at the EXPENSE of other secondary characters. Remember Vegeta IS a secondary character. Thats how it always was and how it always should be

And now with spoilers about Episode 127 coming out, to read that Vegeta is still in the tournament is very annoying.

So they are going to have Vegeta eliminate a god of destruction? Come on now

How many more asspulls will they give Vegeta? At this point it's ridiculous Imo. They need to eliminate Vegeta and bring some semblance of rationality back to the story.

Personally I've always found Vegeta's character to be terrible. Always angry, always focused on nothing but strength etc. I remeber during Z when they took polls on the favorite characters of Dragon Ball, and Vegeta did pretty poorly in the voting, so again, I'm scratching my head wondering how and why Super was so Vegeta centric. Hey but its all opinion. You have a right to yours. This is just how I feel. Thanks

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overal series?

Post by Kinokima » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:16 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
Saturnine wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
I also hated how they always had to have Vegeta be equal with Goku. It's Goku's show, not Vegetas.
Weird thing to hate, really - especially considering how big Vegeta's role's been throughout Super.

Also take into account the extended periods of Goku's absence in Z. OG DB was Goku's show, sure, but you can't act as if you expect this of Super, and are disappointed because it doesn't provide enough of that in your opinion. GT made Goku the only character useful in a fight, nobody was happy about that. And now everyone's bitching about how Vegeta refuses to forever accept his supposed inferiority to Kakarot - which oh my gosh - results in him actually not being weaker than Kakarot! I've always considered this complaint kinda insolent of people. That's basically like being mad at someone arbitrarily designated a jobber (even though he's officially not one) for refusing to job and actually winning. It's the petty, mean type of indignation.

Oh, and Goku never defeated Vegeta in a 1 on 1 fight, just sayin'
I can understand if thats a weird thing for fans of Vegeta. Nothing wrong with being a Vegeta fan. The fact Dragon Ball has so many memorable charcaters to get behind is really cool. However I know I'm not alone in my feelings. A lot of people don't like that Super OP'd Vegeta. The fact that Vegeta is the only secondary character who seems to exist in Super is something that's very disappointing for me and many others

I agree that GT focused too much on Goku,

BUT Where GT was too Goku centric, Super is too Vegeta centric

And let's not forget that for a while Super was anti-Goku as well.

Makes me wonder if that was Toyotaro's influence on the anime, or if at the begining Toei just wasnt listening to Toriyama's outlines.

Obviously we now know that Toei started treating the word of Toriyama as god, so that explains why the recent tournament of power arc finally made Goku great again as per Toriyama's canon transcripts.

Anyways both GT and Super are on the opposite extremes of each other. There needs to be a balance.

Dragon Ball is a show about Goku, so it should always slant more heavily in Goku's favor.

The biggest problem with Super is that they gave Vegeta all this shine at the EXPENSE of other secondary characters. Remember Vegeta IS a secondary character. Thats how it always was and how it always should be

And now with spoilers about Episode 127 coming out, to read that Vegeta is still in the tournament is very annoying.

So they are going to have Vegeta eliminate a god of destruction? Come on now

How many more asspulls will they give Vegeta? At this point it's ridiculous Imo. They need to eliminate Vegeta and bring some semblance of rationality back to the story.

Personally I've always found Vegeta's character to be terrible. Always angry, always focused on nothing but strength etc. I remeber during Z when they took polls on the favorite characters of Dragon Ball, and Vegeta did pretty poorly in the voting, so again, I'm scratching my head wondering how and why Super was so Vegeta centric. Hey but its all opinion. You have a right to yours. This is just how I feel. Thanks

You clearly remember polls wrongly. Vegeta has always been one of the most popular characters often in 2nd place after Goku.

And saying they need to eliminate a character because you personally don’t like them doesn’t make sense.

Yes Vegeta is my favorite and I hope he lasts as long as possible that’s a biased statement . But I am also not wishing for anyone else to get eliminated. That’s just rude. I hope everyone’s favorite lasts as long as possible and everyone is satisfied.

Edit: Here is a comic for the 30th Anniversary where Toriyama talks about Vegeta’s popularity and how he didn’t kill him. But yeah Vegeta was really unpopular in DBZ. That’s some revisionist history.


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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by Saturnine » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:28 pm

And that's the issue right there - you arbitrarily decide that Vegeta is a "secondary character", while he's been quite primary indeed ever since the Buu arc. He's even been described as the deuteragonist of DB Super by some sources. Also, he's the rival of the main character, Goku. I really have no idea what made you have the sort of expectations for the character that you're having. Just because he got worfed several times in DBZ, and lost fights because he had to pay for his stupid arrogance, doesn't mean he is (or should be) doomed to repeat his mistakes all over again. His character growth doesn't need to be only "accepting his inferiority to Kakarot" (though I have no idea why so many people praise this or consider it valuable character development in the first place), he could also iron out his other flaws (about time he did that too).

As for him being equal to Goku in power then well, blame the Buu arc, since that's when it started. He also did proclaim that he would one day surpass Goku in the revised ending to Toriyama's manga itself. I never understood why that already conflicted with his admission of inferiority during the Kid Buu fight in the eyes of so many. Super made it abundantly clear right from the get go - "You're the number one Saiyan, I've admitted as much. But don't think I'll let you leave me in the dust forever" - or something to that tune. Really, there's much more to be enjoyed about Vegeta if his spirit of rivalry is kindled. In GT he was castrated, he was basically Goku's yes man. In Super he gets to take the initiative and get things done, and this bothers you?

At least be honest and admit it's because you simply like Goku (which there is nothing wrong with), rather than introducing some arbitrary "main character vs secondary character" criteria. Hell, writers have been shifting protagonists in their franchises since the dawn of fiction. Someone is the "main character" only so long as the author wishes it - the audience has no right to expect petty stuff such as "this guy is the main char, hence it's him who should get the kill on the Big Bad" etc. Goku sure is a staple of Dragonball and he's still the lead protagonist, but there is no reason to deny Vegeta the co-star role, especially since hanging with Kakarot is something he's been working towards throughout all of Z. Not to mention these two work quite nicely as a duo too.

At any rate, it would be much more sane to look at Vegeta as a primary character than as a "secondary character whose spotlight comes at the cost of other secondary characters' spotlight". You're basically equating Vegeta to someone like Tien, which is either delusional or just malevolent wishful thinking. As for DB being a story about Goku - that's a gross oversimplification too. OG DB was a story about Goku, Z and on was a story about much more than just him. Not to mention his character arc, if there ever was one, has been long concluded, and all that remains is his journey to power.

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by Jord » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:56 am

A note about the pacing which I think is far too slow a lot of times. (Universal Survival arc could use a god trim) Yes, DBZ had a lot of pacing issues as well, most notably the horrible "1 minute until Namek explodes" episodes. That being said, it also makes Z harder to rewatch. That being said, by the time I watched Z it was finished so I could skip or fast forward through episodes. Super doesn't have this option.

Most of all I like it more when instead of padding episodes with stare downs or commentaries by secondary characters I like it more when anime series just create 'filler sagas' in order to keep a pace but not run ahead of the manga. I'm probably one of the few that liked the Garlic Jr saga but even if you don't you can easily skip those sagas and the rest of the series would have a faster pace.

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:07 am

Roughly the first 30 episodes I am mixed on, I prefer their movie counterparts. The animation is all over the place, it can be descent but also kind of hard to look at. U6 faired better and then by the time the trunks arc came around, I feels like we got more good animation compared to their off days. The trunks arc was pretty good except the weird ending where there is a timeline with two trunks running around. The TOP of arc is exactly where my expectations were had. With the exception of Tien, all the other fighters had great moments and development. While I didn't like they sidelined Buu again, at least he had a great fight with Basil. Freeza while I was originally against the idea, his return and chemistry with the cast has been great. Overall, while far from perfect, I think this series has more highs then lows after the first two arcs and I have overall satisfied.
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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by Timetraveller » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:03 pm

Battle of Gods: A fun start to the series. It doesn't take itself seriously, has almost no plot but it's fun and reminiscent of the comedy/action style that Dragonball went for. Episode 5 tarnished the show's reputation but the final fight between Goku and Beerus wasn't that bad. The new transformation we waited 20 years for is a red haired Goku. 6/10

Resurrection F: Insultingly bad. Again, no real plot. No build up, no suspense and the cop-out ending with Whis time reversion nonsense. Animation plain bad. Gohan was drawn like Slenderman. The second transformation is another recolor. 1/10. The Vegeta beatdown was the only highlight.

Universe 6 arc: No plot. I'm starting to see a pattern here. A fighting tournament with goofy characters no one wants to see. Introduced a new saiyan who for some reason is drawn like he has an eating disorder. Goku vs Hit was hype and SSBKK was cool even if it was anime only and done before in filler. 5/10.

Zamasu arc: Finally the first plot heavy arc. Fan favorite Future Trunks is back. Some cool fights. The mystery of "who is Black" wasn't that hard to solve though. The introduction and focus of Zamasu made it obvious. Ending poorly written and didn't make much sense. Trunks' new special form and attack should be named 'Deus ex machina'. 7/10

ToP arc: No plot. Another tournament this time with even more goofy gag characters that no one cares about. Ribrianne managed to last multiple episodes. Introduction to U6 female saiyans probably the worst written recurring characters in the whole franchise. Tingly back bs. Did have some entertaining moments like Goku vs Jiren, Ultra Instinct and GoD Toppo. 6.5/10

It's like the only thing they learned from GT's mistakes was to "add more fan service". Toriyama had so many years to plan this out and this is what we got? Boring character designs and arcs with plot weak even by DBZ standards. Let's just hope the next series is better.

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by rs_chaosmaster » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:31 pm

It is definitely the worse out of the cannon Dragonball but Super is 1000 times better than GT

Rating
DBZ 9/10
Dragonball 8.5/10
Super 7/10
GT 4/10

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by precita » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:41 pm

mute_proxy wrote:I'd like to quote Ajay's opinion on Super from his Curious Cat profile, which I generally agree with
Don't particularly care for it. It's introduced some great new characters and concepts, and that puts it well above GT for me, but it's done absolutely nothing interesting with any of them. The storytelling is embarrassingly poor. If they wrap the show up in March, then that was a colossal waste of a series.

As far as the Tournament of Power goes, I like to call it "an arc of moments". Cool shit happens in episodes here and there, and the animation has mostly been solid, but it's not a story. It's an episodic excuse to see characters transform and punch each other for no reason. It's what people who aren't fans of Dragon Ball think Dragon Ball is. It's a WWE parody of Dragon Ball. It might be entertaining here and there, but fuck me, when it's not - and that's often - it's so boring.

We got a mediocre retelling of Battle of Gods, a solid bridge into a dreadful retelling of Resurrection F, a stupidly short and underdeveloped tournament, a trash-tier filler arc, an almost genuinely great arc that fell to pieces at the end, and then 'Padding: The Arc' before the Snorenament of Power feat. literally Broli began. Yeah... No, thanks.
Which I don't agree with. Complaining about padding during the training eps when only 1-2 of them were really bad doesn't make sense, I'd rather see the characters train then skip over it. Most of the TOP has been good but a few dicey moments here and there.

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by ConfusedPhantom » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:51 pm

Overall, very weird. The story doesn't flow like an overarching story. It's a really weird episodic series. Only the Future Trunks arc felt fulfilling besides the ending. The Tournament of Power had a great concept of a story in the beginning, but it throws it aside and it was all fights without any tension at all. Don't get me wrong, it's been constantly entertaining, but...yeah. I'm glad it exists though. Bad story telling or not, it was fun going at it again with Son Goku and friends.

It's not really over yet for me, since I read the manga. So far for the Tournament of Power for that, it's doing a better job at feeling like a flowing story. So hopefully it does the same for the incoming chapters.

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by Saiga » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:09 am

I agree with Ajay's opinion beyond putting it over GT. Super and GT are so different that I don't know how to compare them, broadly. I don't think GT was good - at all - and I'm not one to say it's overhated or not given enough credit... but there are a number of issues I have with Super that I don't find in GT. Super/BOG had introduced some interesting characters (whereas GT... didn't, really) but I think GT handled the characterization of existing characters a lot better for the most part, especially Vegeta who is just awful in Super.

I'd say both of them are like, a 2-3 out of 10 for me.

I'm glad Super is ending. It's a weird time to end it, and it's wasting a lot of the concepts to do so, but... after 120+ episodes, I still don't feel they've managed to create a good show. I don't think the future would hold much better for it, either.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by Guesswhoo » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:14 am

DBS filled every one of my sunday morning since its debut, I hoped it would be THE serie that put back the respect the dragon ball franchise desperately needed on the internet. Yet everything fell apart and not because of DBS (atleast not in my opinion), but because of the public itself.

Lets be honest, DBS was doomed to fail in the eyes of the many since the beginning because the majority was waiting for it to fail, the majority was waiting for it to be "worse" or "as bad as GT", part of it steam from the "every sequel will be bad" popular mindset mixed with a good amount of "Dragon Ball is an overrated mediocre work" (the most common opinion to have on DB these days). I don't say that people disliking it are wrong, in fact some people have fair criticism on it as fan of the franchise, but my complain target mainly the non-fan who just want to trash the whole franchise through DBS, using "argument" ( like it's the Goku show, why they don't use dragon ball for..., they are so dumb, the plot is ridiculous, there is no depth, etc) that can be used on every other anime out there (minus the dragon ball one) .

I'm pretty sure that after DBS ends, we will get a whole bunch of videos and thread on internet saying how it is "as bad as GT", "worse" or even the "worst shonen anime ever" followed by "you know Dragon Ball was never that great to begin with", slowly Dragon ball will be The Sonic (who suffer the exact symptom) of anime. (Unless Toriyama gets his shit together and pull some grandiose thing out of DB).
At the end, I took the anime as what it wanted to give me and find myself pretty entertained and filled me with great character interaction (especially everything with Beerus), BEST new character (Beerus, Champa, Vados, Whis, Zamasu, Gowasu, Cabba, Magetta, Toppo to name a few), great new transformation, some wasted potential, BAD POWER SCALING ( not as bad as Fairy tail though), and TWO disliked character (looking at Caulifla and Kelfa), THE WORST ARC OF ANIME (RoF) to date, BEST FILLER IN ANY ANIME EVER to date, 3rd BEST ARC IN DB FRANCHISE (FoT) after Namek and Boo arc.

Dragon ball as a whole was never about "deep angsty plot" (which seems to be the trend lately) but was always about showing a world living and shining with comedy, honesty and awesome moment, with that I can say it is one of the best slice of life/action anime and manga EVER.
I hope for a new serie soon (please make it happen).

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by buutenks » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:17 am

Super like the Z anime has allot of issues, but like Z each episode aired entertained me. So it isnt that good, but was fun to watch.

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by Timetraveller » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:21 am

Guesswhoo wrote: Lets be honest, DBS was doomed to fail in the eyes of the many since the beginning because the majority was waiting for it to fail, the majority was waiting for it to be "worse" or "as bad as GT",
Not me. When Super was announced I called all of my friends in excitement and fist pumped the air more times than I can remember. I wanted it to succeed so badly. It doesn't take much to satisfy me but Super even fails at that. Future Trunks was my favorite character and they even messed that up by giving him blue hair.

Sorry, but I can't put it over GT. It's too weak on plot and the character and transformation designs are boring and stale. They went overboard with the fanservice too. The last 2 arcs are a step in the right direction though. If a sequel can build on that it'll be the DBZ sequel everyone wanted.

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overall series?

Post by Hawk9211 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:29 am

Guesswhoo wrote:DBS filled every one of my sunday morning since its debut, I hoped it would be THE serie that put back the respect the dragon ball franchise desperately needed on the internet. Yet everything fell apart and not because of DBS (atleast not in my opinion), but because of the public itself.

Lets be honest, DBS was doomed to fail in the eyes of the many since the beginning because the majority was waiting for it to fail, the majority was waiting for it to be "worse" or "as bad as GT", part of it steam from the "every sequel will be bad" popular mindset mixed with a good amount of "Dragon Ball is an overrated mediocre work" (the most common opinion to have on DB these days). I don't say that people disliking it are wrong, in fact some people have fair criticism on it as fan of the franchise, but my complain target mainly the non-fan who just want to trash the whole franchise through DBS, using "argument" ( like it's the Goku show, why they don't use dragon ball for..., they are so dumb, the plot is ridiculous, there is no depth, etc) that can be used on every other anime out there (minus the dragon ball one) .

I'm pretty sure that after DBS ends, we will get a whole bunch of videos and thread on internet saying how it is "as bad as GT", "worse" or even the "worst shonen anime ever" followed by "you know Dragon Ball was never that great to begin with", slowly Dragon ball will be The Sonic (who suffer the exact symptom) of anime. (Unless Toriyama gets his shit together and pull some grandiose thing out of DB).
At the end, I took the anime as what it wanted to give me and find myself pretty entertained and filled me with great character interaction (especially everything with Beerus), BEST new character (Beerus, Champa, Vados, Whis, Zamasu, Gowasu, Cabba, Magetta, Toppo to name a few), great new transformation, some wasted potential, BAD POWER SCALING ( not as bad as Fairy tail though), and TWO disliked character (looking at Caulifla and Kelfa), THE WORST ARC OF ANIME (RoF) to date, BEST FILLER IN ANY ANIME EVER to date, 3rd BEST ARC IN DB FRANCHISE (FoT) after Namek and Boo arc.

Dragon ball as a whole was never about "deep angsty plot" (which seems to be the trend lately) but was always about showing a world living and shining with comedy, honesty and awesome moment, with that I can say it is one of the best slice of life/action anime and manga EVER.
I hope for a new serie soon (please make it happen).
You should not too much attention to anime etilists.At the end of day,no one can change your opinion and dragon ball is one of most of popular anime/manga franchise that has inspired millions of people including people like oda,kishimito,murata,tite kubo,nakaba suzuki etc. and is still liked by general audience .
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball

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Re: With Super almost finished what do you think of the overal series?

Post by sintzu » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:50 am

sintzu wrote:I was going to wait till it was over but at this point I don't think 6 episodes will tip the scale in either direction so I'll give Super a 6/10.
After careful consideration, 6 is low so I'm giving it a 7.5 now.
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