How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

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Re: How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

Post by 8bitdee » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:37 am

Doctor. wrote:I dislike the change because Vegeta's arc ended back in Z and they haven't done anything new with the character that warrants the huge amount of screen-time that he's been getting. He's boring now, incredibly enough. I don't mind the change too much though, since I never liked Gohan to begin with, but Super, in the time period they chose, would have been better off as Goku's story.
What are you talking about? Vegeta has had the biggest character growth since the end of Z in the last few episodes. He finally chose to stop chasing Goku. At the end of Z he admitted Goku was number one, but that never meant that he would be giving up on trying to match him. At the end of Z he wanted to fight him again badly to show who was the strongest; the rivalry was still there at the very last scene of Z, so people complaining that it "feels forced now" are complaining about something that has always existed.

But when Vegeta reached that level 2 SSJBlue mode, he said it himself: "Kakarot can keep his UI, I'll defeat you in my own way." (I'm paraphrashing, I don't recall exact quote). This was him coming to the realization that he should stop trying to follow in Goku's footsteps, and stop getting the same powerups Goku has been getting. And instead he should forge his own path to try to match Goku on his own way, his own method. He saw how strong UI made Goku, but instead of going "Dammit, now I need to reach THAT form to catch up to him" he said "Fuck it,fuck chasing Kakarot's powerups, I'll do my own thing."

At the end of the first DBS arc, Vegeta wanted SSJ God to catch up to Goku.
At the end of DBS's final arc, Vegeta has decided to forge his own path.

If that's not the next proper step of character development for a one dimensional shounen character, then I don't know what the hell you people want. This isn't Citizen Kane, it's DragonBall for christ's sake, this is as good as it's gonna get.

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Re: How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

Post by Michsi » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:35 am

precita wrote:How do people stay interested in Dragonball if they don't like Vegeta/Gohan anymore? I find it rather difficult. I like Piccolo, Krillin, etc. but they hardly get any screentime anymore so I can't get excited over them outside the few eps that focus on them.
Hope. I am ashamed to admit that I'd probably be willing to put up with a dozen mediocre episodes as long as I get one like 116 and 118 once in a while.

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Re: How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

Post by Akyon » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:03 am

precita wrote:How do people stay interested in Dragonball if they don't like Vegeta/Gohan anymore? I find it rather difficult. I like Piccolo, Krillin, etc. but they hardly get any screentime anymore so I can't get excited over them outside the few eps that focus on them.
The episodes that aren't focused around Goku and Vegeta's rivalry are usually pretty good.

Honestly, Super doing the whole Slice of Life thing was one of the best things they could have done since it gives the colourful ensemble cast some spotlight.
I still believe the Yamcha Baseball episode may be one of the greatest one off episodes in the entirity of all the series, Krillin as a character has had some decent focus for a secondary character during Super, Piccolo vs. Frost was the most exciting part of the Champa tournament arc for me(until Vegeta demanded he step down), Roshi, 17 and 18 have been a delight during the ToP, Zamasu was at least entertaining enough as a villain that I could get behind that arc's tale, Buu vs. Basil was the highlight of the prelim matches and makes me angry we didn't get to see more of him, the gang vs. the Frieza army in the RoF movie is easily the most fun part to watch even if it's nothing but utter fluff, and if all else fails Bulma, Beerus and Whis are usually around to entertain.

Heck, Gohan's Barry Khan episodes were fairly entertaining, but I can't deny he and Vegeta are the two most boring fighters to watch in action.
I also feel exploring Goku and Vegeta's so called 'rivalry' is less like beating a dead horse and more like smashing it's bones into a fine glue by this point. I'd much rather explore Vegeta's character with him interacting with other characters outside Goku, which is something that we haven't seen much of. Him talking with Roshi prior to Roshi dropping out was great and it'd be nice to see a bit more of.
Goku bounces well off the rest of the cast, which is why the recruitment mini arc was a lot of fun. With the exception of Tenshinhan, Goku had some pretty dynamic interactions with everyone he recruited and it was really nice to watch.
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Re: How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

Post by Whatever » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:05 am

As much as i despise that forced 1 sided rivalry with Vegeta that is pushed down our throats,db is a series that needs battle junkies to have the main roles to work in most arcs.
Gohan does not fit in those roles unlike Vegeta so him being secondary and Vegeta being the deutaragonist is fine as it is,not to mention that Gohan is a very passive character for the most part and the Cell saga was more interesting when the other active characters were moving the plot(Goku,Vegeta,Piccolo,Trunks).

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Re: How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:47 am

8bitdee wrote:What are you talking about? Vegeta has had the biggest character growth since the end of Z in the last few episodes. He finally chose to stop chasing Goku. At the end of Z he admitted Goku was number one, but that never meant that he would be giving up on trying to match him. At the end of Z he wanted to fight him again badly to show who was the strongest; the rivalry was still there at the very last scene of Z, so people complaining that it "feels forced now" are complaining about something that has always existed.

But when Vegeta reached that level 2 SSJBlue mode, he said it himself: "Kakarot can keep his UI, I'll defeat you in my own way." (I'm paraphrashing, I don't recall exact quote). This was him coming to the realization that he should stop trying to follow in Goku's footsteps, and stop getting the same powerups Goku has been getting. And instead he should forge his own path to try to match Goku on his own way, his own method. He saw how strong UI made Goku, but instead of going "Dammit, now I need to reach THAT form to catch up to him" he said "Fuck it,fuck chasing Kakarot's powerups, I'll do my own thing."

At the end of the first DBS arc, Vegeta wanted SSJ God to catch up to Goku.
At the end of DBS's final arc, Vegeta has decided to forge his own path.

If that's not the next proper step of character development for a one dimensional shounen character, then I don't know what the hell you people want. This isn't Citizen Kane, it's DragonBall for christ's sake, this is as good as it's gonna get.
I get that, and I appreciate the effort if not for the fact that Vegeta has been stagnant for roughly 100 episodes now, which is why I said they haven't done anything interesting with the character that warrants all the spotlight he keeps getting. Furthermore, Vegeta had already tried to forge his own path once before in Super, when he begged Whis to train him. Sure, he was still trying to catch up to Goku, but he took the initiative and by the time Goku arrives to train as well, it's implied multiple times that Vegeta already has the upper-hand on him (and that would have actually been an interesting dynamic, to see how Goku copes with being second best under the same training regiment, but alas, they go back to the status quo next arc). But even if we ignore that, even if you want to claim it's not exactly the same which I could agree with, Vegeta's realization in these last few episodes feels completely empty because it comes almost out of nowhere. There's no arc. It's just the end result. This is a trend in Super, not exclusive to Vegeta's realization, they tend to skip all the build-up and go straight to the end result.

As a side-note, Vegeta in the 28th tournament didn't want to fight Goku. He joined the tournament because Goku asked him to; he never once expressed a desire to fight Goku outside of the alternative Kanzenban ending in 2004. It doesn't matter much, because I don't believe his realization that Goku is #1 should necessarily mean he quits trying to beat him, but I'm just correcting you.

Vegeta isn't one-dimensional and Shounen characters aren't one-dimensional by default. That seems like an attempt (that you're not the only one to make, a lot of Super apologists make this argument too) at trying to make poor character development look more impressive than it is by downplaying the previous series' writing.
precita wrote:How do people stay interested in Dragonball if they don't like Vegeta/Gohan anymore? I find it rather difficult. I like Piccolo, Krillin, etc. but they hardly get any screentime anymore so I can't get excited over them outside the few eps that focus on them.
I like Goku. Don't you?

How do people stay interested in Dragon Ball if they don't like Goku anymore?

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Re: How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

Post by TekTheNinja » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:34 pm

8bitdee wrote:
Doctor. wrote:I dislike the change because Vegeta's arc ended back in Z and they haven't done anything new with the character that warrants the huge amount of screen-time that he's been getting. He's boring now, incredibly enough. I don't mind the change too much though, since I never liked Gohan to begin with, but Super, in the time period they chose, would have been better off as Goku's story.
What are you talking about? Vegeta has had the biggest character growth since the end of Z in the last few episodes. He finally chose to stop chasing Goku. At the end of Z he admitted Goku was number one, but that never meant that he would be giving up on trying to match him. At the end of Z he wanted to fight him again badly to show who was the strongest; the rivalry was still there at the very last scene of Z, so people complaining that it "feels forced now" are complaining about something that has always existed.

But when Vegeta reached that level 2 SSJBlue mode, he said it himself: "Kakarot can keep his UI, I'll defeat you in my own way." (I'm paraphrashing, I don't recall exact quote). This was him coming to the realization that he should stop trying to follow in Goku's footsteps, and stop getting the same powerups Goku has been getting. And instead he should forge his own path to try to match Goku on his own way, his own method. He saw how strong UI made Goku, but instead of going "Dammit, now I need to reach THAT form to catch up to him" he said "Fuck it,fuck chasing Kakarot's powerups, I'll do my own thing."

At the end of the first DBS arc, Vegeta wanted SSJ God to catch up to Goku.
At the end of DBS's final arc, Vegeta has decided to forge his own path.

If that's not the next proper step of character development for a one dimensional shounen character, then I don't know what the hell you people want. This isn't Citizen Kane, it's DragonBall for christ's sake, this is as good as it's gonna get.
But this is exactly the problem. He SAYS he's going to be strong in his own way, but is definitely not doing that. He's just getting an asspull "blue but stronger now because reasons" form.
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Re: How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

Post by TekTheNinja » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:42 pm

Doctor. wrote:
precita wrote:How do people stay interested in Dragonball if they don't like Vegeta/Gohan anymore? I find it rather difficult. I like Piccolo, Krillin, etc. but they hardly get any screentime anymore so I can't get excited over them outside the few eps that focus on them.
I like Goku. Don't you?

How do people stay interested in Dragon Ball if they don't like Goku anymore?
In Super? Nah, Goku in Super is one of the least likable anime protagonists I've ever seen, and it doesn't help that he's one of the only two characters who's ever prominent.
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Re: How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:47 pm

TekTheNinja wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
precita wrote:How do people stay interested in Dragonball if they don't like Vegeta/Gohan anymore? I find it rather difficult. I like Piccolo, Krillin, etc. but they hardly get any screentime anymore so I can't get excited over them outside the few eps that focus on them.
I like Goku. Don't you?

How do people stay interested in Dragon Ball if they don't like Goku anymore?
In Super? Nah, Goku in Super is one of the least likable anime protagonists I've ever seen, and it doesn't help that he's one of the only two characters who's ever prominent.
No, I mean Goku. I don't mean bastardizations.

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Re: How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:53 pm

Doctor. wrote:
I like Goku. Don't you?

How do people stay interested in Dragon Ball if they don't like Goku anymore?.
I like to hate Goku, does that count?
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Re: How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:55 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
I like Goku. Don't you?

How do people stay interested in Dragon Ball if they don't like Goku anymore?.
I like to hate Goku, does that count?
I was just trying to spin precita's comment and show how it's not the best question to make considering DB is Goku's series, not Gohan or Vegeta's, but sure. I also want Goku to improve as a character because all the pieces are there and they stubbornly refuse to do anything new with him.

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Re: How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

Post by Whatever » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:21 pm

Doctor. wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
I like Goku. Don't you?

How do people stay interested in Dragon Ball if they don't like Goku anymore?.
I like to hate Goku, does that count?
I was just trying to spin precita's comment and show how it's not the best question to make considering DB is Goku's series, not Gohan or Vegeta's, but sure. I also want Goku to improve as a character because all the pieces are there and they stubbornly refuse to do anything new with him.
Yeah the exhibition matches seemed like they were gonna do something with his stagnant character but nope they took that back just like they did with the responsibility of the situation.

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Re: How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

Post by Jigurashi » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:51 pm

Doctor. wrote:
8bitdee wrote:What are you talking about? Vegeta has had the biggest character growth since the end of Z in the last few episodes. He finally chose to stop chasing Goku. At the end of Z he admitted Goku was number one, but that never meant that he would be giving up on trying to match him. At the end of Z he wanted to fight him again badly to show who was the strongest; the rivalry was still there at the very last scene of Z, so people complaining that it "feels forced now" are complaining about something that has always existed.

But when Vegeta reached that level 2 SSJBlue mode, he said it himself: "Kakarot can keep his UI, I'll defeat you in my own way." (I'm paraphrashing, I don't recall exact quote). This was him coming to the realization that he should stop trying to follow in Goku's footsteps, and stop getting the same powerups Goku has been getting. And instead he should forge his own path to try to match Goku on his own way, his own method. He saw how strong UI made Goku, but instead of going "Dammit, now I need to reach THAT form to catch up to him" he said "Fuck it,fuck chasing Kakarot's powerups, I'll do my own thing."

At the end of the first DBS arc, Vegeta wanted SSJ God to catch up to Goku.
At the end of DBS's final arc, Vegeta has decided to forge his own path.

If that's not the next proper step of character development for a one dimensional shounen character, then I don't know what the hell you people want. This isn't Citizen Kane, it's DragonBall for christ's sake, this is as good as it's gonna get.
I get that, and I appreciate the effort if not for the fact that Vegeta has been stagnant for roughly 100 episodes now, which is why I said they haven't done anything interesting with the character that warrants all the spotlight he keeps getting. Furthermore, Vegeta had already tried to forge his own path once before in Super, when he begged Whis to train him. Sure, he was still trying to catch up to Goku, but he took the initiative and by the time Goku arrives to train as well, it's implied multiple times that Vegeta already has the upper-hand on him (and that would have actually been an interesting dynamic, to see how Goku copes with being second best under the same training regiment, but alas, they go back to the status quo next arc). But even if we ignore that, even if you want to claim it's not exactly the same which I could agree with, Vegeta's realization in these last few episodes feels completely empty because it comes almost out of nowhere. There's no arc. It's just the end result. This is a trend in Super, not exclusive to Vegeta's realization, they tend to skip all the build-up and go straight to the end result.

As a side-note, Vegeta in the 28th tournament didn't want to fight Goku. He joined the tournament because Goku asked him to; he never once expressed a desire to fight Goku outside of the alternative Kanzenban ending in 2004. It doesn't matter much, because I don't believe his realization that Goku is #1 should necessarily mean he quits trying to beat him, but I'm just correcting you.

Vegeta isn't one-dimensional and Shounen characters aren't one-dimensional by default. That seems like an attempt (that you're not the only one to make, a lot of Super apologists make this argument too) at trying to make poor character development look more impressive than it is by downplaying the previous series' writing.
precita wrote:How do people stay interested in Dragonball if they don't like Vegeta/Gohan anymore? I find it rather difficult. I like Piccolo, Krillin, etc. but they hardly get any screentime anymore so I can't get excited over them outside the few eps that focus on them.
I like Goku. Don't you?

How do people stay interested in Dragon Ball if they don't like Goku anymore?
I like him overall more in Super than Z. Didn't feel like a character in Z and I don't think he's anywhere near as bad in Super as some like to say. The agree that it's about time they start doing something new with him. I like him currently but I feel it'd have been potentially much stronger had they stayed with him being "evil".

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