Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:37 am

TBMx wrote:If Vegeta doesn't get Ultra Instinct despite undergoing the same training, I think we can all agree that UI for Goku has nothing to do with Whis' training and is a complete asspull? Especially mastering it when there's no indication that Vegeta will ever get the UI Omen even. And considering millions of years old gods haven't mastered it.
This makes no sense

Goku didn't attain Omen through training.

It was through an internal struggle from WITHIN himself to resist being killed by his own spirit bomb.

It was through an unusual event

Where during his fight vs Jiren- Goku was being pushed well beyond his limits by Jiren.

Goku was already maxed out when Jiren sent that spirit bomb right back at Goku. That was it for Goku. It took every fiber of Goku's will, power, and soul to resist being engulged by his own spirit bomb.

That internal struggle from WITHIN himself to resist, is what allowed him to unlock the basics of Instinctual fighting i.e UI (Omen prelude)

In fact the way Goku got Omen was flawless writing by Toriyama/flawless execution by Toei.

Now this is going to lead in to the next point - ON WHY it actually DOES make perfect sense for Goku to unlock the UI mastered transformation

UI is a "technique" for angels "practiced" through training. (From what we know Berus is the only god who seems to have been taught any version of it)

UI was a transformation for Goku brought out during battle as a NEED.

How many of the angels (and Berus) actually had a life and death battle where they were pushed to their max and beyond - and HAD an instinctual NEED TO survive/master it, like Goku?

There sure isn't anyone to challenge the angels like how Jiren challenges Goku and like how Jiren has Goku continually pushing and pushing past his limits.

And Goku was the first one to ever even give Berus a good fight in ages.

Its like the angles simply train UI in their spare time to have fun. That's why it would simply take hundreds of years for them to master it through simply just training means.

Where as, Goku was in actual life and death battle, being pushed beyond his max limits by someone so much stronger.

Think of it as, the angels (and Berus) have always just been hitting punching bags. You can get good just by that - and always look good hitting the bag. But at the end of the day you need to actually put it to practice in a real live fight.

Goku doesnt hit bags to look pretty, Goku is not only sparring -but in actual chanpionship fights always pushing himself to the max and surpassing limits.

It makes sense that Goku would unlock the mastered UI transformation much faster due to Goku actually needing it in battle and being pushed well beyond his max etc

Berus has spent most of his life sleeping. How the heck is he going to master UI?

Plus have we forgotten how much of a prodigy and martial arts master Goku Is?

IF ANY "mortal" could unlock the UI perfect transformation that fast, it's the legendary Son Goku who's actually out there testing himself in live battles and surpassing his limits each time.

On the matter of Vegeta. Vegeta getting UI would not make any sense because Vegeta can NOT seperate his mind from his body no matter how hard he trains. Its simply Vegeta's personality. Whis even stated this. "Vegeta is always too tense" Goku is loose which fits UI far better.

We already saw the results of Vegeta's training with Whis via Vegeta learning how to control/master his god ki


Maybe....MAYBE in the NEXT version of Super (that comes back next year) we could see Vegeta get Omen but it would take Vegeta changing his perspective on life+an unusual event or circumstances. I see it as highly unlikely

At the end of the day, no matter what, Vegeta himself said he doesnt want UI.

And personally, I like it much better that way if Goku and Vegeta simply have their own paths. Vegeta continuing to go down the path of God ki control makes much more sense

Why does Vegeta always have to get everything Goku gets ? Because forced artificial "rival plot"....I'm sick of that aspect of Super. That would be giving Vegeta the asspulls too. Heck, I would say that the way Vegeta went SSB2 Is the real asspull

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:06 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
TBMx wrote:If Vegeta doesn't get Ultra Instinct despite undergoing the same training, I think we can all agree that UI for Goku has nothing to do with Whis' training and is a complete asspull? Especially mastering it when there's no indication that Vegeta will ever get the UI Omen even. And considering millions of years old gods haven't mastered it.
This makes no sense

Goku didn't attain Omen through training.

It was through an internal struggle from WITHIN himself to resist being killed by his own spirit bomb.

It was through an unusual event

Where during his fight vs Jiren- Goku was being pushed well beyond his limits by Jiren.

Goku was already maxed out when Jiren sent that spirit bomb right back at Goku. That was it for Goku. It took every fiber of Goku's will, power, and soul to resist being engulged by his own spirit bomb.

That internal struggle from WITHIN himself to resist, is what allowed him to unlock the basics of Instinctual fighting i.e UI (Omen prelude)

In fact the way Goku got Omen was flawless writing by Toriyama/flawless execution by Toei.

Now this is going to lead in to the next point - ON WHY it actually DOES make perfect sense for Goku to unlock the UI mastered transformation

UI is a "technique" for angels "practiced" through training. (From what we know Berus is the only god who seems to have been taught any version of it)

UI was a transformation for Goku brought out during battle as a NEED.

How many of the angels (and Berus) actually had a life and death battle where they were pushed to their max and beyond - and HAD an instinctual NEED TO survive/master it, like Goku?

There sure isn't anyone to challenge the angels like how Jiren challenges Goku and like how Jiren has Goku continually pushing and pushing past his limits.

And Goku was the first one to ever even give Berus a good fight in ages.

Its like the angles simply train UI in their spare time to have fun. That's why it would simply take hundreds of years for them to master it through simply just training means.

Where as, Goku was in actual life and death battle, being pushed beyond his max limits by someone so much stronger.

Think of it as, the angels (and Berus) have always just been hitting punching bags. You can get good just by that - and always look good hitting the bag. But at the end of the day you need to actually put it to practice in a real live fight.

Goku doesnt hit bags to look pretty, Goku is not only sparring -but in actual chanpionship fights always pushing himself to the max and surpassing limits.

It makes sense that Goku would unlock the mastered UI transformation much faster due to Goku actually needing it in battle and being pushed well beyond his max etc

Berus has spent most of his life sleeping. How the heck is he going to master UI?

Plus have we forgotten how much of a prodigy and martial arts master Goku Is?

IF ANY "mortal" could unlock the UI perfect transformation that fast, it's the legendary Son Goku who's actually out there testing himself in live battles and surpassing his limits each time.

On the matter of Vegeta. Vegeta getting UI would not make any sense because Vegeta can NOT seperate his mind from his body no matter how hard he trains. Its simply Vegeta's personality. Whis even stated this. "Vegeta is always too tense" Goku is loose which fits UI far better.

We already saw the results of Vegeta's training with Whis via Vegeta learning how to control/master his god ki


Maybe....MAYBE in the NEXT version of Super (that comes back next year) we could see Vegeta get Omen but it would take Vegeta changing his perspective on life+an unusual event or circumstances. I see it as highly unlikely

At the end of the day, no matter what, Vegeta himself said he doesnt want UI.

And personally, I like it much better that way if Goku and Vegeta simply have their own paths. Vegeta continuing to go down the path of God ki control makes much more sense

Why does Vegeta always have to get everything Goku gets ? Because forced artificial "rival plot"....I'm sick of that aspect of Super. That would be giving Vegeta the asspulls too. Heck, I would say that the way Vegeta went SSB2 Is the real asspull
Despite not always agreeing with you on everything relating to Vegeta's character, I do agree with you on some of the points about Vegeta suddenly just wanting to attain UI would kind of be a contradiction of his current development.

I also agree with you about why the Gods of Destruction have such a hard time attaining it, namely they don't really get into life threatening situations in combats because Gods of Destruction are by virtue supposed to be the strongest beings in their respective universes(the only know exception to this being Jiren).

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:59 pm

TBMx wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
TBMx wrote:
We know Vegeta is still trying to rival Goku, as we know Toriyama fairly recently changed the last line he had in dbz to reflect that. If he wants to fight Goku again, he needs UI, or a transformation that somehow negates Goku's autododge. Otherwise Goku will make Vegeta look like a fool. So if one is saying he "doesn't need UI" One has to give context to that statement. Given 17's performance, Vegeta doesn't even need the transformation he got (which seems awful at dodging) in order to fulfil his apparent role in the ToP. Which is get his ass knocked around by god Toppo until he does the final explosion - it would have made more sense if Vegeta stayed in SSB as it'd make the explosion actually necessary - and then jobbing to Jiren. Could have done it in regular blue, considering what 17 did.

Isn't Vegeta supposed to be Goku's arch rival? No? Or is the story somehow better by giving that role to the Generic alien of the month?
No, in a later version of the last chapter, this talk of Vegeta does not exist. So in the end he does not want to overtake Goku

And 17 just managed to hold Toppo because of his infinite energy and barrier.
He could not do much more than that. So Vegeta only on SSB also would not be able to do anything against Toppo. This new transformation really made some sense at the end

But I agree that Vegeta is also training to get the UI, just like Goku.
In the manga, the Fish Oracle says that Vegeta and Goku will be great rivals for Beerus.
So why could not Vegeta at least get a prelude to the UI? Or surpass the power of Beerus in that last arc?
Toriyama changed it to "I'll surpass you someday", you're saying he changed it back? When?

And I'm not saying Vegeta has to do better against Jiren than 17. Because even now, with SSBluerer, he hasn't done better by any means. I'm saying all Vegeta needs to get his ass kicked and eliminated by Jiren, is regular SSB.

All he needed to beat god Toppo is regular SSB.

So all this talk about what Vegeta "needs" and "wants" is irrelevant. He's been through the same training as Goku, he actually trained with Whis longer, he's been pushed past his limits multiple times, he almost died in this tournament, at least three times, Why has he not broken through to his "Inner shell" yet? Meaning why hasn't he even got UI omen yet? For even a second? That's what makes me think it'll always be a Goku specific thing like Kaioken.

I would trade Vegeta's new transformation for UI omen in a split second. UI Omen actually lends itself to elaborate fight choreography making it a joy to watch (or it would if it wasn't Goku's), while Vegeta's new transformation fight Toppo was boring, slow and unentertaining.

And that's all that matters at the end of the day. Entertainment.
The 2014 Kanzenban version of the ending was included in the Dragon Ball Digest Edition, but the last chapter did not have those additional pages of Vegeta talking that would overtake Goku, just the goodbye message from Toriyama.

I'm just saying that with the regular SSB, Vegeta would not be able to defeat Toppo (who destroyed Golden Freeza) let alone give a decent fight to Jiren.
Because yes, with his new transformation, he is doing a lot better than before (after all, we are talking about Jiren who released his true power).

But yes, Vegeta has already been on the limit several times, enough to be able to unlock the UI (or at least the same transformation as Goku).
In the next EP it will be destroyed by Jiren, why would not that be enough?
Just fighting Kefla, Goku was able to activate UI.

I agree that UI would be better for Vegeta, mainly because of all his training to achieve this technique and also for having stayed on the limit several times in this tournament.
But it's not as if your '' new Blue '' was bad.
Nero<>Akira wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
TBMx wrote:
We know Vegeta is still trying to rival Goku, as we know Toriyama fairly recently changed the last line he had in dbz to reflect that. If he wants to fight Goku again, he needs UI, or a transformation that somehow negates Goku's autododge. Otherwise Goku will make Vegeta look like a fool. So if one is saying he "doesn't need UI" One has to give context to that statement. Given 17's performance, Vegeta doesn't even need the transformation he got (which seems awful at dodging) in order to fulfil his apparent role in the ToP. Which is get his ass knocked around by god Toppo until he does the final explosion - it would have made more sense if Vegeta stayed in SSB as it'd make the explosion actually necessary - and then jobbing to Jiren. Could have done it in regular blue, considering what 17 did.

Isn't Vegeta supposed to be Goku's arch rival? No? Or is the story somehow better by giving that role to the Generic alien of the month?
No, in a later version of the last chapter, this talk of Vegeta does not exist. So in the end he does not want to overtake Goku

And 17 just managed to hold Toppo because of his infinite energy and barrier.
He could not do much more than that. So Vegeta only on SSB also would not be able to do anything against Toppo. This new transformation really made some sense at the end

But I agree that Vegeta is also training to get the UI, just like Goku.
In the manga, the Fish Oracle says that Vegeta and Goku will be great rivals for Beerus.
So why could not Vegeta at least get a prelude to the UI? Or surpass the power of Beerus in that last arc?
Nero<>Akira wrote:
Guys, come on. stop it. Vegeta getting beat up by Jiren isn't a damn reference. You guys are making that shit up. Vegeta is too far below Jiren and too damn exhausted to have a "respectable" showing. His respectable showing was in 122 and it was nearly the same as when Goku first fought him. They looked good at first and got their ass whooped. Jiren is too strong. He's getting beat. I actually want to see them like this. It gives more gravitas to the entire situation.
Vegeta was also being defeated by Toppo, but after thinking about his family, he was able to defeat him. Why could not he at least give Jiren some work on EP 128 doing the same thing? It's your last battle

The '' he's tired '' argument does not make sense
Its.... Jiren..... JIREN. It doesn't matter if he is at full power lol don't even compare Toppo to him. Nothing suggests he is even on Jirens level. The only thing capable of besting Jiren or even fighting him is literally a technique Gods use.
No matter how strong Jiren is, emotions have always been a trigger for the Saiyans to grow stronger.

It would not be a problem if we had Vegeta's last decent fight against Jiren, where he would be able to fight with everything and use his motivations to confront him.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
TBMx wrote:If Vegeta doesn't get Ultra Instinct despite undergoing the same training, I think we can all agree that UI for Goku has nothing to do with Whis' training and is a complete asspull? Especially mastering it when there's no indication that Vegeta will ever get the UI Omen even. And considering millions of years old gods haven't mastered it.
This makes no sense

Goku didn't attain Omen through training.

It was through an internal struggle from WITHIN himself to resist being killed by his own spirit bomb.

It was through an unusual event

Where during his fight vs Jiren- Goku was being pushed well beyond his limits by Jiren.

Goku was already maxed out when Jiren sent that spirit bomb right back at Goku. That was it for Goku. It took every fiber of Goku's will, power, and soul to resist being engulged by his own spirit bomb.

That internal struggle from WITHIN himself to resist, is what allowed him to unlock the basics of Instinctual fighting i.e UI (Omen prelude)

In fact the way Goku got Omen was flawless writing by Toriyama/flawless execution by Toei.

Now this is going to lead in to the next point - ON WHY it actually DOES make perfect sense for Goku to unlock the UI mastered transformation

UI is a "technique" for angels "practiced" through training. (From what we know Berus is the only god who seems to have been taught any version of it)

UI was a transformation for Goku brought out during battle as a NEED.

How many of the angels (and Berus) actually had a life and death battle where they were pushed to their max and beyond - and HAD an instinctual NEED TO survive/master it, like Goku?

There sure isn't anyone to challenge the angels like how Jiren challenges Goku and like how Jiren has Goku continually pushing and pushing past his limits.

And Goku was the first one to ever even give Berus a good fight in ages.

Its like the angles simply train UI in their spare time to have fun. That's why it would simply take hundreds of years for them to master it through simply just training means.

Where as, Goku was in actual life and death battle, being pushed beyond his max limits by someone so much stronger.

Think of it as, the angels (and Berus) have always just been hitting punching bags. You can get good just by that - and always look good hitting the bag. But at the end of the day you need to actually put it to practice in a real live fight.

Goku doesnt hit bags to look pretty, Goku is not only sparring -but in actual chanpionship fights always pushing himself to the max and surpassing limits.

It makes sense that Goku would unlock the mastered UI transformation much faster due to Goku actually needing it in battle and being pushed well beyond his max etc

Berus has spent most of his life sleeping. How the heck is he going to master UI?

Plus have we forgotten how much of a prodigy and martial arts master Goku Is?

IF ANY "mortal" could unlock the UI perfect transformation that fast, it's the legendary Son Goku who's actually out there testing himself in live battles and surpassing his limits each time.

On the matter of Vegeta. Vegeta getting UI would not make any sense because Vegeta can NOT seperate his mind from his body no matter how hard he trains. Its simply Vegeta's personality. Whis even stated this. "Vegeta is always too tense" Goku is loose which fits UI far better.

We already saw the results of Vegeta's training with Whis via Vegeta learning how to control/master his god ki


Maybe....MAYBE in the NEXT version of Super (that comes back next year) we could see Vegeta get Omen but it would take Vegeta changing his perspective on life+an unusual event or circumstances. I see it as highly unlikely

At the end of the day, no matter what, Vegeta himself said he doesnt want UI.

And personally, I like it much better that way if Goku and Vegeta simply have their own paths. Vegeta continuing to go down the path of God ki control makes much more sense

Why does Vegeta always have to get everything Goku gets ? Because forced artificial "rival plot"....I'm sick of that aspect of Super. That would be giving Vegeta the asspulls too. Heck, I would say that the way Vegeta went SSB2 Is the real asspull
Vegeta has been at his limits several times in this tournament (as much as Goku), and this could be used for him to awaken the UI as well.
Goku just in his fight against Kefla managed to awaken the UI, because Vegeta could not do the same against Jiren?

In the next episode, Vegeta will be destroyed by Jiren, so this could be used to awaken the UI.

And this story that '' Vegeta's personality would prevent him from reaching the UI '' does not exist. The transformation that Goku obtained (to be able to access the UI) would already do the job of separating mind and body so that Vegeta moves without thinking.
And the fact that Vegeta is tense is only a weakness that can be overcome, Whis himself said he could train him to get this technique

And Vegeta is not following Goku, UI is a technique that exists a long time and that even the gods have difficulties in dominating, it is not something that Goku created or even that only it uses.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by TBMx » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:23 pm

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
Why does Vegeta always have to get everything Goku gets ? Because forced artificial "rival plot"....I'm sick of that aspect of Super. That would be giving Vegeta the asspulls too. Heck, I would say that the way Vegeta went SSB2 Is the real asspull
No, UI Omen Goku is the asspull. Just as Goku survived the Spirit Bomb, Vegeta survived the Final Explosion. That one character has your headcanon attached to his event and the other does not, is entirely arbitrary.

So basically you want Vegeta to be no different to Piccolo, Gohan, 17, Tien and Krillin. Characters who fight for others/their families and train just to better themselves, defend the world. If I want to get behind that sort of character, I'll choose from the long list that already exists.

The point is, like Goku, Vegeta's character arc has been set up to as mastering self movement. That was the original goal of Whis' training. Yet only Goku got the payoff, for no valid reason other than main character status.
The 2014 Kanzenban version of the ending was included in the Dragon Ball Digest Edition, but the last chapter did not have those additional pages of Vegeta talking that would overtake Goku, just the goodbye message from Toriyama.
I don't know what you're talking about. I saw that ending with my own eyes. Regardless of what edition it came from.

If it was always going to come down to the final explosion, then regular SSB Vegeta could have defeated god Toppo. He might not have survived (there's no reason for him to survive as he accomplishes nothing after), but he could have won. Or have been written to win believably. As he did little else beside get his ass kicked as SSB2. He had a brief comeback, but it makes no difference if that comeback is there or not there.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by TBMx » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:30 pm

Second of all, Whis told Goku and Vegeta of self movement as if it could be something they could achieve in their lifetimes through his training. If it takes an aeon of time to master, then there's no reason for Whis to tell them in the first place, they'd be long dead before they could learn any of it.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:35 pm

TBMx wrote:Second of all, Whis told Goku and Vegeta of self movement as if it could be something they could achieve in their lifetimes through his training. If it takes an aeon of time to master, then there's no reason for Whis to tell them in the first place, they'd be long dead before they could learn any of it.
Well, it’s not going to take eons for goku, he is already going to use a mastered version against jiren.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:17 pm

TBMx wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
Why does Vegeta always have to get everything Goku gets ? Because forced artificial "rival plot"....I'm sick of that aspect of Super. That would be giving Vegeta the asspulls too. Heck, I would say that the way Vegeta went SSB2 Is the real asspull
No, UI Omen Goku is the asspull. Just as Goku survived the Spirit Bomb, Vegeta survived the Final Explosion. That one character has your headcanon attached to his event and the other does not, is entirely arbitrary.

So basically you want Vegeta to be no different to Piccolo, Gohan, 17, Tien and Krillin. Characters who fight for others/their families and train just to better themselves, defend the world. If I want to get behind that sort of character, I'll choose from the long list that already exists.

The point is, like Goku, Vegeta's character arc has been set up to as mastering self movement. That was the original goal of Whis' training. Yet only Goku got the payoff, for no valid reason other than main character status.
The 2014 Kanzenban version of the ending was included in the Dragon Ball Digest Edition, but the last chapter did not have those additional pages of Vegeta talking that would overtake Goku, just the goodbye message from Toriyama.
I don't know what you're talking about. I saw that ending with my own eyes. Regardless of what edition it came from.

If it was always going to come down to the final explosion, then regular SSB Vegeta could have defeated god Toppo. He might not have survived (there's no reason for him to survive as he accomplishes nothing after), but he could have won. Or have been written to win believably. As he did little else beside get his ass kicked as SSB2. He had a brief comeback, but it makes no difference if that comeback is there or not there.
To know what I'm talking about, read this

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/chp-519/

And the difference between Vegeta SSB and GoD Toppo is too big. Golden Freeza was quickly destroyed.

We do not know if the final explosion would be enough only with the SSB, mainly because of the great difference of powers that would exist between them.

And that is precisely what I am questioning.
If Vegeta was not eliminated on EP 126, it's because he still had some involvement. But what will she be?
Be beaten by Jiren? Without being able to fight with your new transformation?
Without being able to do anything?

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by MajinVegetaPD » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:32 pm

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
TBMx wrote:If Vegeta doesn't get Ultra Instinct despite undergoing the same training, I think we can all agree that UI for Goku has nothing to do with Whis' training and is a complete asspull? Especially mastering it when there's no indication that Vegeta will ever get the UI Omen even. And considering millions of years old gods haven't mastered it.
This makes no sense

Goku didn't attain Omen through training.

It was through an internal struggle from WITHIN himself to resist being killed by his own spirit bomb.

It was through an unusual event

Where during his fight vs Jiren- Goku was being pushed well beyond his limits by Jiren.

Goku was already maxed out when Jiren sent that spirit bomb right back at Goku. That was it for Goku. It took every fiber of Goku's will, power, and soul to resist being engulged by his own spirit bomb.

That internal struggle from WITHIN himself to resist, is what allowed him to unlock the basics of Instinctual fighting i.e UI (Omen prelude)

In fact the way Goku got Omen was flawless writing by Toriyama/flawless execution by Toei.

Now this is going to lead in to the next point - ON WHY it actually DOES make perfect sense for Goku to unlock the UI mastered transformation

UI is a "technique" for angels "practiced" through training. (From what we know Berus is the only god who seems to have been taught any version of it)

UI was a transformation for Goku brought out during battle as a NEED.

How many of the angels (and Berus) actually had a life and death battle where they were pushed to their max and beyond - and HAD an instinctual NEED TO survive/master it, like Goku?

There sure isn't anyone to challenge the angels like how Jiren challenges Goku and like how Jiren has Goku continually pushing and pushing past his limits.

And Goku was the first one to ever even give Berus a good fight in ages.

Its like the angles simply train UI in their spare time to have fun. That's why it would simply take hundreds of years for them to master it through simply just training means.

Where as, Goku was in actual life and death battle, being pushed beyond his max limits by someone so much stronger.

Think of it as, the angels (and Berus) have always just been hitting punching bags. You can get good just by that - and always look good hitting the bag. But at the end of the day you need to actually put it to practice in a real live fight.

Goku doesnt hit bags to look pretty, Goku is not only sparring -but in actual chanpionship fights always pushing himself to the max and surpassing limits.

It makes sense that Goku would unlock the mastered UI transformation much faster due to Goku actually needing it in battle and being pushed well beyond his max etc

Berus has spent most of his life sleeping. How the heck is he going to master UI?

Plus have we forgotten how much of a prodigy and martial arts master Goku Is?

IF ANY "mortal" could unlock the UI perfect transformation that fast, it's the legendary Son Goku who's actually out there testing himself in live battles and surpassing his limits each time.

On the matter of Vegeta. Vegeta getting UI would not make any sense because Vegeta can NOT seperate his mind from his body no matter how hard he trains. Its simply Vegeta's personality. Whis even stated this. "Vegeta is always too tense" Goku is loose which fits UI far better.

We already saw the results of Vegeta's training with Whis via Vegeta learning how to control/master his god ki


Maybe....MAYBE in the NEXT version of Super (that comes back next year) we could see Vegeta get Omen but it would take Vegeta changing his perspective on life+an unusual event or circumstances. I see it as highly unlikely

At the end of the day, no matter what, Vegeta himself said he doesnt want UI.

And personally, I like it much better that way if Goku and Vegeta simply have their own paths. Vegeta continuing to go down the path of God ki control makes much more sense

Why does Vegeta always have to get everything Goku gets ? Because forced artificial "rival plot"....I'm sick of that aspect of Super. That would be giving Vegeta the asspulls too. Heck, I would say that the way Vegeta went SSB2 Is the real asspull


Nice reply, but this is simply YOUR head cannon.

Asspull is asspull.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Mercenary » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:17 pm

I'm just making an assumption but - I think there's a reason why Vegeta wasn't eliminated right after beating Toppo.


I firmly believe that it's safe to say - Vegeta won't be eliminated in EP.128 and will contribute to Jiren's downfall later.

Maybe fusion (remember Beerus who was glad that Shin took Potara earrings? It was in this EP where Kefla was born IIRC), maybe just cooperating, but I think Vegeta will survive 'till the end and spoilers are misleading.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Kagari » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:56 pm

Mercenary wrote:I'm just making an assumption but - I think there's a reason why Vegeta wasn't eliminated right after beating Toppo.


I firmly believe that it's safe to say - Vegeta won't be eliminated in EP.128 and will contribute to Jiren's downfall later.

Maybe fusion (remember Beerus who was glad that Shin took Potara earrings? It was in this EP where Kefla was born IIRC), maybe just cooperating, but I think Vegeta will survive 'till the end and spoilers are misleading.
Spoilers already confirmed he's out.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Mercenary » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:06 pm

Kagari wrote:
Mercenary wrote:I'm just making an assumption but - I think there's a reason why Vegeta wasn't eliminated right after beating Toppo.


I firmly believe that it's safe to say - Vegeta won't be eliminated in EP.128 and will contribute to Jiren's downfall later.

Maybe fusion (remember Beerus who was glad that Shin took Potara earrings? It was in this EP where Kefla was born IIRC), maybe just cooperating, but I think Vegeta will survive 'till the end and spoilers are misleading.
Spoilers already confirmed he's out.
Nope, spoilers just say :"Vegeta falls". It doesn't mean he is out at all.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:11 pm

Mercenary wrote:
Kagari wrote:
Mercenary wrote:I'm just making an assumption but - I think there's a reason why Vegeta wasn't eliminated right after beating Toppo.


I firmly believe that it's safe to say - Vegeta won't be eliminated in EP.128 and will contribute to Jiren's downfall later.

Maybe fusion (remember Beerus who was glad that Shin took Potara earrings? It was in this EP where Kefla was born IIRC), maybe just cooperating, but I think Vegeta will survive 'till the end and spoilers are misleading.
Spoilers already confirmed he's out.
Nope, spoilers just say :"Vegeta falls". It doesn't mean he is out at all.
Animedia and Animage both say only Goku and Jiren remain in the arena by 129.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Mercenary » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:18 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Mercenary wrote:
Kagari wrote: Spoilers already confirmed he's out.
Nope, spoilers just say :"Vegeta falls". It doesn't mean he is out at all.
Animedia and Animage both say only Goku and Jiren remain in the arena by 129.
All right, so according to this logic Frieza is out too, because spoilers don't mention him as well ;)?

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:19 pm

Mercenary wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
Mercenary wrote:
Nope, spoilers just say :"Vegeta falls". It doesn't mean he is out at all.
Animedia and Animage both say only Goku and Jiren remain in the arena by 129.
All right, so according to this logic Frieza is out too, because spoilers don't mention him as well ;)?
Considering both of them explicitly say "only Goku and Jiren are left in the arena," that would certainly be the implication.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Mercenary » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:23 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Mercenary wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote: Animedia and Animage both say only Goku and Jiren remain in the arena by 129.
All right, so according to this logic Frieza is out too, because spoilers don't mention him as well ;)?
Considering both of them explicitly say "only Goku and Jiren are left in the arena," that would certainly be the implication.
However, it would totally ruin fanmade theories about Freeza's secret plan/surviving to the end and allowing U7 to win by numbers/sneaky attack on Jiren etc.

I still hope spoilers are misleading in order not to spoil too much.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by TheOtherDude » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:30 pm

MajinVegetaPD wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
TBMx wrote:If Vegeta doesn't get Ultra Instinct despite undergoing the same training, I think we can all agree that UI for Goku has nothing to do with Whis' training and is a complete asspull? Especially mastering it when there's no indication that Vegeta will ever get the UI Omen even. And considering millions of years old gods haven't mastered it.
This makes no sense

Goku didn't attain Omen through training.

It was through an internal struggle from WITHIN himself to resist being killed by his own spirit bomb.

It was through an unusual event

Where during his fight vs Jiren- Goku was being pushed well beyond his limits by Jiren.

Goku was already maxed out when Jiren sent that spirit bomb right back at Goku. That was it for Goku. It took every fiber of Goku's will, power, and soul to resist being engulged by his own spirit bomb.

That internal struggle from WITHIN himself to resist, is what allowed him to unlock the basics of Instinctual fighting i.e UI (Omen prelude)

In fact the way Goku got Omen was flawless writing by Toriyama/flawless execution by Toei.

Now this is going to lead in to the next point - ON WHY it actually DOES make perfect sense for Goku to unlock the UI mastered transformation

UI is a "technique" for angels "practiced" through training. (From what we know Berus is the only god who seems to have been taught any version of it)

UI was a transformation for Goku brought out during battle as a NEED.

How many of the angels (and Berus) actually had a life and death battle where they were pushed to their max and beyond - and HAD an instinctual NEED TO survive/master it, like Goku?

There sure isn't anyone to challenge the angels like how Jiren challenges Goku and like how Jiren has Goku continually pushing and pushing past his limits.

And Goku was the first one to ever even give Berus a good fight in ages.

Its like the angles simply train UI in their spare time to have fun. That's why it would simply take hundreds of years for them to master it through simply just training means.

Where as, Goku was in actual life and death battle, being pushed beyond his max limits by someone so much stronger.

Think of it as, the angels (and Berus) have always just been hitting punching bags. You can get good just by that - and always look good hitting the bag. But at the end of the day you need to actually put it to practice in a real live fight.

Goku doesnt hit bags to look pretty, Goku is not only sparring -but in actual chanpionship fights always pushing himself to the max and surpassing limits.

It makes sense that Goku would unlock the mastered UI transformation much faster due to Goku actually needing it in battle and being pushed well beyond his max etc

Berus has spent most of his life sleeping. How the heck is he going to master UI?

Plus have we forgotten how much of a prodigy and martial arts master Goku Is?

IF ANY "mortal" could unlock the UI perfect transformation that fast, it's the legendary Son Goku who's actually out there testing himself in live battles and surpassing his limits each time.

On the matter of Vegeta. Vegeta getting UI would not make any sense because Vegeta can NOT seperate his mind from his body no matter how hard he trains. Its simply Vegeta's personality. Whis even stated this. "Vegeta is always too tense" Goku is loose which fits UI far better.

We already saw the results of Vegeta's training with Whis via Vegeta learning how to control/master his god ki


Maybe....MAYBE in the NEXT version of Super (that comes back next year) we could see Vegeta get Omen but it would take Vegeta changing his perspective on life+an unusual event or circumstances. I see it as highly unlikely

At the end of the day, no matter what, Vegeta himself said he doesnt want UI.

And personally, I like it much better that way if Goku and Vegeta simply have their own paths. Vegeta continuing to go down the path of God ki control makes much more sense

Why does Vegeta always have to get everything Goku gets ? Because forced artificial "rival plot"....I'm sick of that aspect of Super. That would be giving Vegeta the asspulls too. Heck, I would say that the way Vegeta went SSB2 Is the real asspull


Nice reply, but this is simply YOUR head cannon.

Asspull is asspull.
Thank you. This is the literal definition of head canon. It’s hard to hard to get people to see the other side of things. He sees what he wants and there’s nothing anyone could say to make him second guess his stance.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Kagari » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:36 pm

Mercenary wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
Mercenary wrote:
Nope, spoilers just say :"Vegeta falls". It doesn't mean he is out at all.
Animedia and Animage both say only Goku and Jiren remain in the arena by 129.
All right, so according to this logic Frieza is out too, because spoilers don't mention him as well ;)?
He was going out at some point though. Just be happy he lasted as long as he did.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:52 pm

If you noticed. Vegeta's big moments in this tourney have been call backs.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Kaiosama » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:44 pm

I think Vegeta should have gone out in 126 when he took Toppo out. I agree it's kinda silly that he has to fight Jiren in base form before going out, and it does almost seem like Toei trolling Vegeta fans with another "this is why Goku will always be superior" and making him take a humiliating loss before going out. But to be fair, they did the same thing with Hit way back in 112. Goku has to get the spotlight now with only 3 episodes left in the tournament, so I don't think they really have a choice but to quickly eliminate Frieza and Vegeta. I think it would have been better executed with Vegeta going out after getting his big win against Toppo.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by sintzu » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:35 am

Kaiosama wrote:I think Vegeta should have gone out in 126 when he took Toppo out.

It does almost seem like Toei trolling Vegeta fans with another "this is why Goku will always be superior" and making him take a humiliating loss before going out.
If they double KOed each other it wouldn't really be a win for Vegeta as Toppo will have also knocked him out as it'll just be a repeat of Gohan and Dyspo's fight.

We've known Goku was going to be superior form the start thanks to UI so it has nothing to do with telling us what we've already known for a year+. Tosiho (I think that's his name ?) said it was going to be a "cool" moment so with what he said and who he's fighting, I don't see how it can be humiliating. The fact that he's holding on in Base is enough for me to be happy with how he goes out, anything else will be major icing on the cake. There are of course people who aren't going to be happy unless he wins the tournament so no matter how well he did and how good of an out he gets, it won't matter to them.
Mercenary wrote:Spoilers just say :"Vegeta falls". It doesn't mean he is out at all.
Maybe he's "hiding" with Hit. :lol:
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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