Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by HeroR » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:00 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Well, if it would make vegeta fans feel any better, even UI omen goku is getting his ass kicked next episode. So there’s that. Can’t say the same for Mastered UI tho. That form should be at least on par with full power jiren.
I don’t think we can say something is getting their ass kick based on one scene and the rest has UI Omen being about even.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by sintzu » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:11 pm

Kinokima wrote:Vegeta was in my opinion treated great in the TOP and all of Super. So he doesn’t get to beat the main bad guy.
People seem to forget he beat down Golden Freeza and Black, both are main villains. Expecting him to take down Jiren as well after getting those 2 and with him being the final of the show was very unrealistic, especially with this being a very Goku centric arc. People also seem to forget that the start and middle of the arc did nothing with him so things could've been a lot worse like Ribrianne taking him out but instead he got a new form, took down Toppo and held his own against Jiren.

I couldn't be happier with how Vegeta's been written in modern DB.
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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:22 pm

HeroR wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Well, if it would make vegeta fans feel any better, even UI omen goku is getting his ass kicked next episode. So there’s that. Can’t say the same for Mastered UI tho. That form should be at least on par with full power jiren.
I don’t think we can say something is getting their ass kick based on one scene and the rest has UI Omen being about even.
Against a suppressed jiren, I wouldn’t say even. And if jiren is going to fight a mastered version, it means omen is not enought.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by HeroR » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:40 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Well, if it would make vegeta fans feel any better, even UI omen goku is getting his ass kicked next episode. So there’s that. Can’t say the same for Mastered UI tho. That form should be at least on par with full power jiren.
I don’t think we can say something is getting their ass kick based on one scene and the rest has UI Omen being about even.
Against a suppressed jiren, I wouldn’t say even. And if jiren is going to fight a mastered version, it means omen is not enought.
We don’t even know if he’s surpressed in that scene.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Kinokima » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:02 pm

sintzu wrote:
Kinokima wrote:Vegeta was in my opinion treated great in the TOP and all of Super. So he doesn’t get to beat the main bad guy.
People seem to forget he beat down Golden Freeza and Black, both are main villains. Expecting him to take down Jiren as well after getting those 2 and with him being the final of the show was very unrealistic, especially with this being a very Goku centric arc. People also seem to forget that the start and middle of the arc did nothing with him so things could've been a lot worse like Ribrianne taking him out but instead he got a new form, took down Toppo and held his own against Jiren.

I couldn't be happier with how Vegeta's been written in modern DB.

I don't really agree that he beat Freeza and Black. Yeah he was able to go neck and neck with Freeza but Toei took that victory away from him and gave the final shot to Goku by having Freeza destroy the planet.

And also yeah he had the upper hand against Black at one point but then Black was able to gain the upper hand over him. I don't think anyone would count either of these as true victories for Vegeta.

Toppo was true victory for Vegeta he completely won and there was no tie or anything to take that victory away from Vegeta (that's why I am really glad they didn't go with the double K/O that some fans wanted). Toppo was also; while not the main antagonist, still an extremely difficult opponent and not just fodder. I do wish they made Toppo a bit more of a threat. If only they hadn't wasted 4 episodes on Goku vs Kefla.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:07 pm

Kinokima wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Kinokima wrote:Vegeta was in my opinion treated great in the TOP and all of Super. So he doesn’t get to beat the main bad guy.
People seem to forget he beat down Golden Freeza and Black, both are main villains. Expecting him to take down Jiren as well after getting those 2 and with him being the final of the show was very unrealistic, especially with this being a very Goku centric arc. People also seem to forget that the start and middle of the arc did nothing with him so things could've been a lot worse like Ribrianne taking him out but instead he got a new form, took down Toppo and held his own against Jiren.

I couldn't be happier with how Vegeta's been written in modern DB.

I don't really agree that he beat Freeza and Black. Yeah he was able to go neck and neck with Freeza but Toei took that victory away from him and gave the final shot to Goku by having Freeza destroy the planet.
What does Toei have to do with this? They just follow Toriyama's outline, so why blame them for this narrative choice?
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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by HeroR » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:07 pm

Kinokima wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Kinokima wrote:Vegeta was in my opinion treated great in the TOP and all of Super. So he doesn’t get to beat the main bad guy.
People seem to forget he beat down Golden Freeza and Black, both are main villains. Expecting him to take down Jiren as well after getting those 2 and with him being the final of the show was very unrealistic, especially with this being a very Goku centric arc. People also seem to forget that the start and middle of the arc did nothing with him so things could've been a lot worse like Ribrianne taking him out but instead he got a new form, took down Toppo and held his own against Jiren.

I couldn't be happier with how Vegeta's been written in modern DB.

I don't really agree that he beat Freeza and Black. Yeah he was able to go neck and neck with Freeza but Toei took that victory away from him and gave the final shot to Goku by having Freeza destroy the planet.

And also yeah he had the upper hand against Black at one point but then Black was able to gain the upper hand over him. I don't think anyone would count either of these as true victories for Vegeta.

Toppo was true victory for Vegeta he completely won and there was no tie or anything to take that victory away from Vegeta (that's why I am really glad they didn't go with the double K/O that some fans wanted). Toppo was also; while not the main antagonist, still an extremely difficult opponent and not just fodder. I do wish they made Toppo a bit more of a threat. If only they hadn't wasted 4 episodes on Goku vs Kefla.
Toriyama since he personally wrote Resurrection ‘F’, not Toei. And Vegeta only beat down Freeza after Goku wore him out.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Kinokima » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:29 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Kinokima wrote:
sintzu wrote:
People seem to forget he beat down Golden Freeza and Black, both are main villains. Expecting him to take down Jiren as well after getting those 2 and with him being the final of the show was very unrealistic, especially with this being a very Goku centric arc. People also seem to forget that the start and middle of the arc did nothing with him so things could've been a lot worse like Ribrianne taking him out but instead he got a new form, took down Toppo and held his own against Jiren.

I couldn't be happier with how Vegeta's been written in modern DB.

I don't really agree that he beat Freeza and Black. Yeah he was able to go neck and neck with Freeza but Toei took that victory away from him and gave the final shot to Goku by having Freeza destroy the planet.
What does Toei have to do with this? They just follow Toriyama's outline, so why blame them for this narrative choice?

Correction than Toriyama and I am not blaming anyone just saying I don’t see how anyone came claim Vegeta had a clear victory against Freeza (and then you have someone say Vegeta could only take on Freeza because Goku wore him down but I don’t think that is true. I think Vegeta would have done fine if he was first too).

Though honestly it was really forced writing to have Freeza destroy the planet just so Goku gets the final shot. But I really don’t like RF anyways besides Goku & Vegeta training with Whis. It’s honestly my least favorite arc. And the movie isnt very good either except some nice action scenes.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:57 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Kinokima wrote:

I don't really agree that he beat Freeza and Black. Yeah he was able to go neck and neck with Freeza but Toei took that victory away from him and gave the final shot to Goku by having Freeza destroy the planet.
What does Toei have to do with this? They just follow Toriyama's outline, so why blame them for this narrative choice?

Correction than Toriyama and I am not blaming anyone just saying I don’t see how anyone came claim Vegeta had a clear victory against Freeza (and then you have someone say Vegeta could only take on Freeza because Goku wore him down but I don’t think that is true. I think Vegeta would have done fine if he was first too).

Though honestly it was really forced writing to have Freeza destroy the planet just so Goku gets the final shot. But I really don’t like RF anyways besides Goku & Vegeta training with Whis. It’s honestly my least favorite arc. And the movie isnt very good either except some nice action scenes.
Yeah, RoF had a lot of questionable narrative decisions, it's definetely one of the weakest DB movies
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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by TBMx » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:17 pm

They didn't bother to explain what Vegeta's new form is called or how it works. Really disappointing. Especially if this sort of transformation is supposed to replace UI for Vegeta if they ever continue the series.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by sintzu » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:37 pm

Kinokima wrote:Yeah he was able to go neck and neck with Freeza but Toei took that victory away from him and gave the final shot to Goku by having Freeza destroy the planet.

Yeah he had the upper hand against Black at one point but then Black was able to gain the upper hand over him.

I don't think anyone would count either of these as true victories for Vegeta.

I do wish they made Toppo a bit more of a threat. If only they hadn't wasted 4 episodes on Goku vs Kefla.
When you look at how things played in Super, would you rather have had Vegeta fight him first and get completely owned only for Goku to be the one to beat him down even if Vegeta go the kill ? Yeah Goku got the kill but Vegeta was the only one to beat him up as Goku couldn't lay a hand on him unlike the movie. I think people would be more upset if their roles were switched.

He could only do so by bringing in clones from another dimension which I think was done to preserve Black's character but we saw in a one on one fight he couldn't do anything to Vegeta. I would've liked things to play out more like the manga where Vegeta completely dominated Black but that resulted in Black being a very weak character.

Clearly not as the definition for a true victory here is getting the kill.

I agree with this and that's not the only place they wasted a lot of time in.
TBMx wrote:They didn't bother to explain what Vegeta's new form is called or how it works. Really disappointing. Especially if this sort of transformation is supposed to replace UI for Vegeta if they ever continue the series.
This form was made to get him on Goku's BKK×20 level, not UI which is clearly a completely different form. I wouldn't be surprised if this new blue form doesn't even show up in the movie as I doubt it's from Toriyama.
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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Kinokima » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:15 am

sintzu wrote:
Clearly not as the definition for a true victory here is getting the kill.
Well I consider a true victory a win where the other character is done and can’t fight anymore or gives up. Toppo was a clear win.

But while I’d like for Vegeta to get more clear wins and more clear wins against challenging opponents him winning fights is ultimately not the most important thing to me about his character.


I mean I am disappointed it wasn’t a Goku/Vegeta ending for Whis saying if Vegeta & Goku fought together they would be unstoppable they never actually gave us that type of victory lol (ah well maybe in a movie or future DB series)

But as how Vegeta was treated in Super as a character overall I am not disappointed at all. There is more to a great character than being the strongest or winning the final battle.

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by sintzu » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:51 am

Kinokima wrote:I consider a true victory a win where the other character is done and can’t fight anymore or gives up.
This applies to both Freeza and Black as Freeza couldn't stand anymore (plus Whis rewound time so technically he never blew the planet on Vegeta so the fight ended with him standing over him victorious) and Black had to fall back on his clones as he couldn't take him on anymore.
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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by Kinokima » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:48 am

sintzu wrote:
Kinokima wrote:I consider a true victory a win where the other character is done and can’t fight anymore or gives up.
This applies to both Freeza and Black as Freeza couldn't stand anymore (plus Whis rewound time so technically he never blew the planet on Vegeta so the fight ended with him standing over him victorious) and Black had to fall back on his clones as he couldn't take him on anymore.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. And I don’t really see anyone else counting these as victories for Vegeta either and I don’t just mean Vegeta fans. :)

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Re: Vegeta will receive the Kid Boo treatment again... very original

Post by HeroR » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:11 pm

Kinokima wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Clearly not as the definition for a true victory here is getting the kill.
Well I consider a true victory a win where the other character is done and can’t fight anymore or gives up. Toppo was a clear win.

But while I’d like for Vegeta to get more clear wins and more clear wins against challenging opponents him winning fights is ultimately not the most important thing to me about his character.


I mean I am disappointed it wasn’t a Goku/Vegeta ending for Whis saying if Vegeta & Goku fought together they would be unstoppable they never actually gave us that type of victory lol (ah well maybe in a movie or future DB series)

But as how Vegeta was treated in Super as a character overall I am not disappointed at all. There is more to a great character than being the strongest or winning the final battle.
Only in the Resurrection 'F'. That line wasn't in the Super retelling.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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