What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:21 pm

A sense of progression. After every arc in Z we got major or minor changes in character designs, that made us understand that time has passed. Even Goku's gi changed slightly througout the series ( symbol, boots etc..). There's even very minor changes which go unnoticed like kid Gohan's boots in the first portion of the Android saga , before he went into the RoSaT with Goku, which are different from the ones in the Namek and Cell saga. That's the reason why Yamcha and Bulma have had countless hairstyles. Even the battle damages were better: I can look at a picture of Vegeta's broken armor and tell you exactly at what point of the fight we're at. What I'm saying is: the characters progressed, they had new looks every saga, but now, that haven't changed at all since the beginning of Super. Goku and Vegeta even ditched their new outfits. Goten and Trunks are obviously the bigger cases of this problem. Just a few design changes for the characters could fix this: a slightly bigger body for the children, different hairstyles, clothes or something like that. But no, the characters are now just stuck with their current look because it's the most marketable. Feels like watching Simpson or something, where the characters are never gonna change. Characters growing up/changing was one of my favourite parts of DB and DBZ. Do you think that's ever gonna change? Maybe with a hypotetical new series after the next movie. I mean, they have to age them up sooner or later.
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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by Fizzer » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:20 pm

I agree fully. DB was always a world in which we could feel time progressing. We were always moving into new stages in these characters lives. Super has killed that.

Goku and Vegeta should absolutely have kept their RoF outfits, and probably even got new ones again going to the US arc, perhaps EoZ clothes.

Goten and Trunks should have had several different looks at this point. They should have been aged up a few years in the BoG arc and now be approaching their EoZ appearances.

The tradition of Bulma changing her look needed to continue too. Everyone looks way too young at this point.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by ulisa » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:11 am

One of my favorite aspects of Dragonball was that the characters DID age and did change so I do miss that with Super. I was never a fan of shows where the characters stay perpetually young and time doesn't seem to affect them. I think it takes some of impact of their adventures away. I remember being stunned when I first got into Dragonball and found out that Goku actually grows up and has a family and eventually becomes a grandfather. Time is a great way to show character development and change and when your characters are stuck in a certain age/time, you lose a lot of that. One of my favorite lines in GT actually (and I cannot recall if it was Dub or Japanese) is during the battle with the Three Star Dragon and Goku, despite being in a kid's body, remarks "I'm gettin' too old for this." Little things like that are great throw backs as a reminder for what the characters have endured and gone through. I do hope that the future movies/series do address this. I've never understood their fear of going beyond the EoZ--the characters are older but that doesn't mean you're limited to what you can do with them. Just get more creative.
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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:27 am

Honestly excluding the aging and lack of natural changes like you mentioned, I think the battle damage (or lack there of) bothers me the most.

Look at Goku and Vegeta at the end of their fight in the Saiyan Saga. They were FUCKED UP.

Now look a Goku and Vegeta in ep127 of Super. It looks like they're barely been harmed! There's little to no scratches, let alone blood.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by Shinsa » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:55 am

I agree with you 100% with you, DBZ was the natural progression of DB with characters and the world aging and evolving.

Toei seems to know this and is treating Goku and gang like icons. Something they didnt want to change or develop and in my opinion one of the biggest missteps that they seem to be doing with the series. Super has no impact, no threat to the characters and Earth and no real development. Having the characters look and act the same with out aging and signs of visual marks or scars (Mental or physical) makes the show much more shallow.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by emperior » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:01 am

Add me to the list of people agreeing with you.
The variety of outfits, characters aging and realistic battle damage were all awesome things DBZ had and Super doesn't have anymore.
Even if we leave out the aging part because of Super not making crazy time-skips, and if we leave out blood because of censorship and what-not, there is absolutely no excuse as to why Super's characters always look the same. They always wear the same outfits and always have the same hairstyle. Bulma is an exception as she has at least changed a couple of outfits, although not as many as she should have realistically changed and she is always back to her RoF outfit. But everyone else is stuck in the same clothing. Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Videl, Yamcha, Roshi, 18 before she got her tracksuit and the others, they always wear the same thing. Even Vegeta is always wearing the same casual outfit.
I like how in Toyotaro's manga he changes outfits up, it makes his world look more realistic.

The bad battle damage is probably the worst offender though. The tournament of power would be so much more epic if Goku and Vegeta were truly damaged and bleeding. Jiren telling Vegeta "You can't fight me with those wounds" would make sense. Seeing Goku and Vegeta fight while truly badly damaged would also hammer the point about how they are out of stamina but still keep fighting because they are true warriors and always find the strength to get back up. As it is now? When Jiren told Vegeta he was wounded I was like "Dude, he's only shirtless but he's only got some scratches, nothing major".

Hopefully if there's a new show after Super, it will fix these issues.
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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by The Patrolman » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:12 am

Super lacks development of the characters. Please tell me how Vegeta and Goku develop as characters. You can't because they haven't. And don't give me that whole Vegeta caring for his family junk because thats not NEW. Ever since the Buu Arc he has always cared about his family. Him repeating it over and over is NOT development. Goku first selfless act when he helped Upa revive his father is development. Gohan becoming brave in the Saiyan Arc is development. Hell Vegeta respect speech about Goku being #1 is development.
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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:22 am

There is something that Super does lack that I would say that literally every other instalment in the franchise has, something I think really separates it from its roots in the franchise. That is a more eastern martials arts vibe which, though very prominent in all other instalments of the franchise, and is one of the establishing things for the series as a shonen.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by Xeogran » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:36 am

The amazing Sound Effects that DB/Z/GT had. It's a shame, because the fights would be a lot more enjoyable if they used them. Vegetto Spirit Sword'ing Zamasu without his attack's signature SFX wasn't just the same...

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by GohanHiddenPowers » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:42 pm

DBS needed more of this:
GohanHiddenPowers wrote:
OverHeaven wrote:Remember when Dragon Ball arcs had so many turns and twists, villains which were not the final antagonist, but were the main threat for a decent number of episodes, and even unique multiple transformations for the final villain? None of that is present here.

Before Frieza we had Zarbon and Dodoria, then the Ginyuu Force, and Frieza himself had 3 unique transformations.
Before Cell, Gero and 19, then 18&17&16 and of course Cell with 2 unique transformations.
Before Kid Buu. Babidi with his multiple Majin warriors and Dabura, Majin Vegeta, Fat Buu, Super Buu > Buutenks > Buuhan.
My thoughts exactly. Add to this, if we are talking about the anime only, wonderful soundtracks, background musics, some of these by Hironobu Kageyama, in the episodes, movies, ovas, etc. Even Dragon Ball with its 153 episodes, just few more than Super, had more of these memorable moments involving the characters, their arcs, and the very production of the franchise as a whole.We can only hope to see the franchise doing justice with Goku, Goha, Vegeta, and the villains, wherever it is, in the new movie about the origin of the Saiyans, ovas, with a new series in the future. They can when they want to show why DB franchise and it's characters is worldwide appreciated.
DBZ was wonderful not just for Goku, but for Gohan... Vegeta, Piccolo, the VILLAINS (something we don't have in DBS) as well. If you think about Dragon Ball franchise as a whole you think about DBZ, not DBS. DBZ, and DB before this, had movies and episodes with soundtracks, singles, background musics... some examples that everyone knows:

[spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ykq1EI8vQw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCol92GEGcs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oQao13QxUU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEW-Hh1_lqk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDiOYrI8BU8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do3TU9zJg-s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtBcsDf74L8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4v9XIi674I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfyeud94JnQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm77VCkf_do
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCXoQ_ZcjYo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_SeVpq5RNs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJNU4Yo_7iE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrnU8_M1ZCY&t=434s[/spoiler]
Dbzfan94 wrote:Honestly excluding the aging and lack of natural changes like you mentioned, I think the battle damage (or lack there of) bothers me the most.

Look at Goku and Vegeta at the end of their fight in the Saiyan Saga. They were FUCKED UP.

Now look a Goku and Vegeta in ep127 of Super. It looks like they're barely been harmed! There's little to no scratches, let alone blood.
DBS should be aired at a better time slot. And One Piece, although i do not watch this anime, specifically, has blood, battle damage, and DBS does not. I wonder why? I think it's the world turning into something more boring, sensitive. I think most people here was young or grew up watching DBZ in the 90's, and other great shonens, animes, and was not mentally affected by seeing blood in a Japanese animation.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by Amir » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:55 pm

It also lacked proper battle damage, tension, good designs and an actual story with villains instead of tournaments and too much light-hearted stuff. The FT arc was Z quality and even better in some aspects until it started to fall apart in the end. The U6 arc was kinda garbage for the most part other than the Hit fights, the retellings of the movies were bad even compared to the movies which were not that great (BoG was a good movie though) and this current arc had potential to have some more story but instead it's focused on JUST fighting. I expected this to be at least 60% fighting but other than pure action (which has been really good btw) this arc offers nothing.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by SsjCookie » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:36 am

Amir wrote:It also lacked proper battle damage, tension, good designs and an actual story with villains instead of tournaments and too much light-hearted stuff. The FT arc was Z quality and even better in some aspects until it started to fall apart in the end. The U6 arc was kinda garbage for the most part other than the Hit fights, the retellings of the movies were bad even compared to the movies which were not that great (BoG was a good movie though) and this current arc had potential to have some more story but instead it's focused on JUST fighting. I expected this to be at least 60% fighting but other than pure action (which has been really good btw) this arc offers nothing.
Agreed, this arc is only about dumb fighting without any real storytelling going on.
I watched the last episode today and it progressed just as I expected, boorishly predictable!
Jiren VS Goku...what a surprise. :yawn:

Oh well, at least Roshi and 17 were fun to watch, the rest was garbage.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by kn83 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:21 pm

The Patrolman wrote:Super lacks development of the characters. Please tell me how Vegeta and Goku develop as characters. You can't because they haven't. And don't give me that whole Vegeta caring for his family junk because thats not NEW. Ever since the Buu Arc he has always cared about his family. Him repeating it over and over is NOT development. Goku first selfless act when he helped Upa revive his father is development. Gohan becoming brave in the Saiyan Arc is development. Hell Vegeta respect speech about Goku being #1 is development.
Character development is NOT about changing into a different personality, its about becoming more 3D/freshed out over time. Saying Vegeta has no character development because he didn't change is retarded. The characters in Shakespeare plays for example never actually change, yet they have some of the most development in all of fiction. Vegeta gets plenty of development in Super, just look at his focus episodes and interactions with Cabba, Future Trunks, Bulma and even Goku himself. Its done in a way that hasn't been done in Z.

Name one non-reformed villain from Z and the original that has more development than Zamasu or even Jiren now. You can't lol.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by TheMikado » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:28 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:A sense of progression. After every arc in Z we got major or minor changes in character designs, that made us understand that time has passed. Even Goku's gi changed slightly througout the series ( symbol, boots etc..). There's even very minor changes which go unnoticed like kid Gohan's boots in the first portion of the Android saga , before he went into the RoSaT with Goku, which are different from the ones in the Namek and Cell saga. That's the reason why Yamcha and Bulma have had countless hairstyles. Even the battle damages were better: I can look at a picture of Vegeta's broken armor and tell you exactly at what point of the fight we're at. What I'm saying is: the characters progressed, they had new looks every saga, but now, that haven't changed at all since the beginning of Super. Goku and Vegeta even ditched their new outfits. Goten and Trunks are obviously the bigger cases of this problem. Just a few design changes for the characters could fix this: a slightly bigger body for the children, different hairstyles, clothes or something like that. But no, the characters are now just stuck with their current look because it's the most marketable. Feels like watching Simpson or something, where the characters are never gonna change. Characters growing up/changing was one of my favourite parts of DB and DBZ. Do you think that's ever gonna change? Maybe with a hypotetical new series after the next movie. I mean, they have to age them up sooner or later.
The problem with Super is that each story seems to be linked on the previous story occurring and is built in such a way that if the previous arc didn’t happen you wouldn’t get the antagonist of the next.

Example. The androids would have came no matter if the saiyans or Frieza ever happened. Same with Buu.

With Zamasu we know that’s linked to the Champa arc and the Zamasu battle causes the ToP. It’s just one long chain.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by kn83 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:37 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:A sense of progression. After every arc in Z we got major or minor changes in character designs, that made us understand that time has passed. Even Goku's gi changed slightly througout the series ( symbol, boots etc..). There's even very minor changes which go unnoticed like kid Gohan's boots in the first portion of the Android saga , before he went into the RoSaT with Goku, which are different from the ones in the Namek and Cell saga. That's the reason why Yamcha and Bulma have had countless hairstyles. Even the battle damages were better: I can look at a picture of Vegeta's broken armor and tell you exactly at what point of the fight we're at. What I'm saying is: the characters progressed, they had new looks every saga, but now, that haven't changed at all since the beginning of Super. Goku and Vegeta even ditched their new outfits. Goten and Trunks are obviously the bigger cases of this problem. Just a few design changes for the characters could fix this: a slightly bigger body for the children, different hairstyles, clothes or something like that. But no, the characters are now just stuck with their current look because it's the most marketable. Feels like watching Simpson or something, where the characters are never gonna change. Characters growing up/changing was one of my favourite parts of DB and DBZ. Do you think that's ever gonna change? Maybe with a hypotetical new series after the next movie. I mean, they have to age them up sooner or later.
The problem with Super is that each story seems to be linked on the previous story occurring and is built in such a way that if the previous arc didn’t happen you wouldn’t get the antagonist of the next.

Example. The androids would have came no matter if the saiyans or Frieza ever happened. Same with Buu.

With Zamasu we know that’s linked to the Champa arc and the Zamasu battle causes the ToP. It’s just one long chain.
The RRA-Piccolo-Saiyan-Namek-android arcs themselves were one big chain. The android arc exist because of the RRA arc and Namek arc exist because of the Saiyan and Piccolo arcs. Buu saga is the only one that is unrelated to the rest.

And how is having story arcs that are unrelated to each other a good thing? Don't you want continuity?

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:44 pm

Just general lack of coherency and an actual story that connects to anything, really made it uninteresting to me. I don't like how isolated all these scenarios are or how they just appear out of thin air and have nothing relating to prior ones. There there is also the lack of real characterization in it. Everything I found in Super is just redundant character points retreated from the Buu arc or things that they do specifically to appeal to fans and not growth of the characters. The episodic feel of it and lack of coherency makes even the shallow plots they have now even harder to follow, beyond the sake of curiosity or fan loyalty. Super just has no substance and writers who don't seem to understand Z at all.
TheMikado wrote:The problem with Super is that each story seems to be linked on the previous story occurring and is built in such a way that if the previous arc didn’t happen you wouldn’t get the antagonist of the next.

Example. The androids would have came no matter if the saiyans or Frieza ever happened. Same with Buu.

With Zamasu we know that’s linked to the Champa arc and the Zamasu battle causes the ToP. It’s just one long chain.
Nope. I think they need to connect the arcs together for some actual flow. When they don't connect anything, characterization ends up circular as with Super's. However the plots of Super's arcs may have come on after each other from the ending of the last but the events within them do not influence each other at all, thus make them still disconnected. Zamasu is not mentioned ever in the TOP, not by the most significant figures either. Instead we get the most arbitrary reason for the TOP, being some ridiculous mortal level rating (that has absolutely no relevance in any way to the main cast). They didn't just say that Zamasu caused it outright. Its also the issue I have with how the BOG arc being in the time period after the defeat of Buu, yet he is never brought up at all either. Super almost treats it like that never happened. Yet the Buu saga brought up Cell a lot, the Android arc had Freeza and brought him up with Cell's DnA and time shifts, the Freeza saga talked heavily about Saiyans. Super does nothing to even connect itself to Z, except maybe that one scene where they reminded us of Cell's time machine, despite Cell not being relevant.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by kn83 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:21 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:Just general lack of coherency and an actual story that connects to anything, really made it uninteresting to me. I don't like how isolated all these scenarios are or how they just appear out of thin air and have nothing relating to prior ones. There there is also the lack of real characterization in it. Everything I found in Super is just redundant character points retreated from the Buu arc or things that they do specifically to appeal to fans and not growth of the characters. The episodic feel of it and lack of coherency makes even the shallow plots they have now even harder to follow, beyond the sake of curiosity or fan loyalty. Super just has no substance and writers who don't seem to understand Z at all.
TheMikado wrote:The problem with Super is that each story seems to be linked on the previous story occurring and is built in such a way that if the previous arc didn’t happen you wouldn’t get the antagonist of the next.

Example. The androids would have came no matter if the saiyans or Frieza ever happened. Same with Buu.

With Zamasu we know that’s linked to the Champa arc and the Zamasu battle causes the ToP. It’s just one long chain.
Nope. I think they need to connect the arcs together for some actual flow. When they don't connect anything, characterization ends up circular as with Super's. However the plots of Super's arcs may have come on after each other from the ending of the last but the events within them do not influence each other at all, thus make them still disconnected. Zamasu is not mentioned ever in the TOP, not by the most significant figures either. Instead we get the most arbitrary reason for the TOP, being some ridiculous mortal level rating (that has absolutely no relevance in any way to the main cast). They didn't just say that Zamasu caused it outright. Its also the issue I have with how the BOG arc being in the time period after the defeat of Buu, yet he is never brought up at all either. Super almost treats it like that never happened. Yet the Buu saga brought up Cell a lot, the Android arc had Freeza and brought him up with Cell's DnA and time shifts, the Freeza saga talked heavily about Saiyans. Super does nothing to even connect itself to Z, except maybe that one scene where they reminded us of Cell's time machine, despite Cell not being relevant.
Lack of real characterization? Bro, Black, Zamasu and even fricking Jiren lol got more characterization in Super than nearly any main villain in Z or the original. Its no contest.

Lack of character growth? Neither Vegeta, Krillin, Future Trunks nor Tien or even Gohan act exactly like they did Z. Characters like Krillin, Tien, Roshi and thesupporting cast in general got more development in Super than they did in Z. What get moments did those three had in Z that's missing in Super. We've seem more layers of Vegeta's personality in Super than we did in Z. The way he interacts with Bulma, Cabba, both Trunks and especially Goku are things we generally didn't see from Z-Vegeta. So to claim that Super has no character development/growth is pure bullshit.

And your complaint about the flow of the story make no logical sense. Cell was a non-topic in the Buu saga (why would they bring up someone that isn't relevant to the story?), the Buu saga narrative wise had no connection to the previous arcs, since Buu's role in the story had nothing to do with the main cast. Claiming Super doesn't do anything to connect to Z is also bullshit, as BoG establishes Beerus' role in the genocide of the U7 saiyans, RoF is basically the sequel to the Namek saga and everything about the Black arc was only possible because of Trunks' actions in the android arc. Zamasu himself even points this out to him.

Jesus Christ, its like fans mostly whine just to whine, without any critical thinking.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by Miracles » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:23 pm

This really isn't a true lack in quality. Goku wore a different fit for the U6 tourney than he is wearing now for the TOP.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:34 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:Honestly excluding the aging and lack of natural changes like you mentioned, I think the battle damage (or lack there of) bothers me the most.

Look at Goku and Vegeta at the end of their fight in the Saiyan Saga. They were FUCKED UP.

Now look a Goku and Vegeta in ep127 of Super. It looks like they're barely been harmed! There's little to no scratches, let alone blood.

You're definetely right about that. I don't think this is a Japan issue. They really aren't shocked by a drop of blood over there ... even with an early time slot. Look at One Piece for instance with the impaled heads ...

That's a result of the intention to market Dragon Ball for a very broad world wide audition. To protect mothers for seeing their 7-year-old from seeing a drop of blood. Jiren however almost being punched in half by MUI Goku while smahed through tons of rock apparently poses no problem at all.

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Re: What I think Super lacks in comparaison to Z

Post by kn83 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:09 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:Honestly excluding the aging and lack of natural changes like you mentioned, I think the battle damage (or lack there of) bothers me the most.

Look at Goku and Vegeta at the end of their fight in the Saiyan Saga. They were FUCKED UP.

Now look a Goku and Vegeta in ep127 of Super. It looks like they're barely been harmed! There's little to no scratches, let alone blood.

You're definetely right about that. I don't think this is a Japan issue. They really aren't shocked by a drop of blood over there ... even with an early time slot. Look at One Piece for instance with the impaled heads ...

That's a result of the intention to market Dragon Ball for a very broad world wide audition. To protect mothers for seeing their 7-year-old from seeing a drop of blood. Jiren however almost being punched in half by MUI Goku while smahed through tons of rock apparently poses no problem at all.
BS. Most mainstream successful anime are marketed to a global audience, including One Piece, Naruto and Attack on Titan (all are of the same demographic as Dragonball) and other anime with blood. So that doesn't explain the lack of blood in Super (while there was plenty of it in Z, the Original and GT).

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