Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by sintzu » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:58 am

ernesth100 wrote:
Asura wrote:
Image
I'm sorry that picture of Goku with his gi on just looks like SSG recolored.
That's because it is. Take a look at his design for Ssjg and you'll see it's the exact same one.

I wouldn't be surprised if he didnt even make a design but instead told them to take his old design and give it white hair.

Based on what we know from interviews and behind the scenes information, Baggie_Saiyan put it best :
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:DBS is not a Toriyama product at all, he is only guiding the project. It is probably for the better after the ResF story, DB Minus and now this UI debacle it is obvious this man cannot be trusted with creative freedom anymore.
It truly seems like Toriyama is more of a guide rather than the show runner calling all the shots which isn't a bad thing as their strategy has worked so far.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

Neon Z
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:34 am

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Neon Z » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:49 pm

sintzu wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if he didnt even make a design but instead told them to take his old design and give it white hair.
It was redrawn. If you look at the images side by side, you can see some lines are slightly different. Toriyama likely did pretty much trace over his old drawing though, only changing the eyes, which is actually lazy.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:I am worried about the new movie...a lot.
I think it's going to be one of those things where it'll either be really good or really bad and the fanbase will be split in the middle about. I really wish they did something new instead.
I feel like it's gonna be DBminus quality but on a bigger scale...
The main issue with DB Minus is that it's too short to be a proper story, but clashes with the previous full story Bardock got. I don't think "DB Minus on a larger scale" makes sense, since its small scale is exactly the issue with it.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7934
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:53 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:I am worried about the new movie...a lot.
I think it's going to be one of those things where it'll either be really good or really bad and the fanbase will be split in the middle about. I really wish they did something new instead.
I feel like it's gonna be DBminus quality but on a bigger scale...

If it's connected to Yamoshi stuff then at least that part seems like it could be interesting.

If Toei's promise it will be visually amazing holds up then at least that's something to look forward too, I guess.
Can't agree since I like Minus and the biggest issue with it that it told too big of a story with too little pages. Also, comparing a story to a sketch is weird.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7934
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:55 pm

Nero<>Akira wrote:I liked both. Hope the original is used in the manga tbh.

I honestly think most of the misgivings in the anime and manga are due to the writers directly working on them. Yes, AT isn't perfect, but both film versions of the first two arcs of Super were just done better originally in nearly every aspect. But, the some of the writers do deserve props since they've written things I know damn well AT wouldn't have done had he been the only one writing i.e. a lot of the recruitment material for the TOP and some in between episodes in each arc (who knows if he outlined any of these other stories himself though or those recruitment eps).

AT is just being a minimalist. Nothing wrong with that. over designed forms aren't really necessary anymore. but, if there was a well done creative form that wasn't overly done either, then I'd be all for it. I just feel AT's approach to God and UI are conveyed enough through his use of color and body type.
Can't really agree. Resurrection 'F' Saga was better than the movie in every way outside of animation and Goku vs. Freeza. Also, I prefer Battle of Gods Saga in many way over the movie since Goku actually fought Beerus in Super and Super Saiyan God actually looked strong instead of the wet fart it was in th movie.
HeroR wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
sintzu wrote:
I think it's going to be one of those things where it'll either be really good or really bad and the fanbase will be split in the middle about. I really wish they did something new instead.
I feel like it's gonna be DBminus quality but on a bigger scale...

If it's connected to Yamoshi stuff then at least that part seems like it could be interesting.

If Toei's promise it will be visually amazing holds up then at least that's something to look forward too, I guess.
Can't agree since I like Minus and the biggest issue with it that it told too big of a story with too little pages. Also, comparing a story to a sketch is weird.

Minus in many ways suffered the same issues as the Future Trunks bonus chapter in the manga. It's rushed, but the bones of the actual story is fairly good.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by sintzu » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:23 pm

HeroR wrote:Minus in many ways suffered the same issues as the Future Trunks bonus chapter in the manga. It's rushed, but the bones of the actual story is fairly good.
The difference is that Minus tries too hard to make Bardock look like a good guy and change Goku's origin to be like Superman's as if they weren't close enough before.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7934
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:58 pm

sintzu wrote:
HeroR wrote:Minus in many ways suffered the same issues as the Future Trunks bonus chapter in the manga. It's rushed, but the bones of the actual story is fairly good.
The difference is that Minus tries too hard to make Bardock look like a good guy and change Goku's origin to be like Superman's as if they weren't close enough before.
Minus starts the story with Bardock murdering people with a grin on his face and the capture saying ‘evil Saiyans destroying a planet”. Bardock being a slightly good father to Goku doesn’t make him a good person.

This is basically Hitler like sugar.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10275
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:01 pm

Neon Z wrote: The main issue with DB Minus is that it's too short to be a proper story, but clashes with the previous full story Bardock got. I don't think "DB Minus on a larger scale" makes sense, since its small scale is exactly the issue with it.
That's why I said "quality", DB Minus was bad but like you said it was small scale but this is a new movie, and so hence quality will be like DB Minus but on a larger scale.

One could attribute Minus' length for it's lack of quality but we all saw what happened with ResF, it's not a well written or even cohesive story, fun sure but we saw what happens when Toriyama doesn't have concepts to work with like BoG.

Then DBS, out of the three new arcs he has outlined 2 were tournaments and the only non tournament arc he was coaxed into by editorial.

I personally think he shouldn't be left to his devices, we essentially seeing Toriyama without being editor-ed thankfully his involvement in DBS was minute. That's why I'm extremely worried for the new movie.

User avatar
gofishus
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:59 pm
Contact:

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by gofishus » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:08 pm

sintzu wrote:
ernesth100 wrote:
Asura wrote:
Image
I'm sorry that picture of Goku with his gi on just looks like SSG recolored.
That's because it is. Take a look at his design for Ssjg and you'll see it's the exact same one.

I wouldn't be surprised if he didnt even make a design but instead told them to take his old design and give it white hair.

Based on what we know from interviews and behind the scenes information, Baggie_Saiyan put it best :
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:DBS is not a Toriyama product at all, he is only guiding the project. It is probably for the better after the ResF story, DB Minus and now this UI debacle it is obvious this man cannot be trusted with creative freedom anymore.
It truly seems like Toriyama is more of a guide rather than the show runner calling all the shots which isn't a bad thing as their strategy has worked so far.
No wonder I like the Toei made DBZ Movies a lot better than BoG and RoF and DBGT more than Super. Also I think Toei took a lot of creative control over DBZ as well, making Goku more 'hero' like.. in a way the DBZ we grew up with was more Toei's doing not Toriyama. I think Toriyama is turning into George Lucas at this point

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10275
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:13 pm

gofishus wrote:
No wonder I like the Toei made DBZ Movies a lot better than BoG and RoF and DBGT more than Super. Also I think Toei took a lot of creative control over DBZ as well, making Goku more 'hero' like.. in a way the DBZ we grew up with was more Toei's doing not Toriyama. I think Toriyama is turning into George Lucas at this point
I wouldn't say that, but I think this shows why writers, good or bad, need editors.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7934
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:13 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Neon Z wrote: The main issue with DB Minus is that it's too short to be a proper story, but clashes with the previous full story Bardock got. I don't think "DB Minus on a larger scale" makes sense, since its small scale is exactly the issue with it.
That's why I said "quality", DB Minus was bad but like you said it was small scale but this is a new movie, and so hence quality will be like DB Minus but on a larger scale.

One could attribute Minus' length for it's lack of quality but we all saw what happened with ResF, it's not a well written or even cohesive story, fun sure but we saw what happens when Toriyama doesn't have concepts to work with like BoG.

Then DBS, out of the three new arcs he has outlined 2 were tournaments and the only non tournament arc he was coaxed into by editorial.

I personally think he shouldn't be left to his devices, we essentially seeing Toriyama without being editor-ed thankfully his involvement in DBS was minute. That's why I'm extremely worried for the new movie.
I don’t think it’s fair to say Resurrection ‘F’ didn’t have a cohesive story since it did. It was a basic revenge story that exploited the flaws of Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza. And Jaco was written without a previous concept. It was all Toriyama.

And again, we don’t know what the suggesting was for the Future Trunks Saga.

Minus was ‘bad’ because the story itself was too big for the page count. Especially since Minus at the end of the day was a bonus chapter.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7934
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:16 pm

gofishus wrote:
sintzu wrote:
ernesth100 wrote:
I'm sorry that picture of Goku with his gi on just looks like SSG recolored.
That's because it is. Take a look at his design for Ssjg and you'll see it's the exact same one.

I wouldn't be surprised if he didnt even make a design but instead told them to take his old design and give it white hair.

Based on what we know from interviews and behind the scenes information, Baggie_Saiyan put it best :
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:DBS is not a Toriyama product at all, he is only guiding the project. It is probably for the better after the ResF story, DB Minus and now this UI debacle it is obvious this man cannot be trusted with creative freedom anymore.
It truly seems like Toriyama is more of a guide rather than the show runner calling all the shots which isn't a bad thing as their strategy has worked so far.
No wonder I like the Toei made DBZ Movies a lot better than BoG and RoF and DBGT more than Super. Also I think Toei took a lot of creative control over DBZ as well, making Goku more 'hero' like.. in a way the DBZ we grew up with was more Toei's doing not Toriyama. I think Toriyama is turning into George Lucas at this point
Toriyama has always been ‘George Lucus’ by your definition since he hated how Goku was written in Z. And it isn’t like Star Wars is better written without Lucus. In many ways, it’s worst imo.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

Neon Z
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:34 am

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Neon Z » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:40 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Neon Z wrote: The main issue with DB Minus is that it's too short to be a proper story, but clashes with the previous full story Bardock got. I don't think "DB Minus on a larger scale" makes sense, since its small scale is exactly the issue with it.
That's why I said "quality", DB Minus was bad but like you said it was small scale but this is a new movie, and so hence quality will be like DB Minus but on a larger scale.

One could attribute Minus' length for it's lack of quality but we all saw what happened with ResF, it's not a well written or even cohesive story, fun sure but we saw what happens when Toriyama doesn't have concepts to work with like BoG.
To be fair, regarding RoF, Toriyama pretty much submitted his "script" as a draft or outline, and was surprised they actually used it as a the actual script with a few minor changes. If they had actually treated it as an outline and developed elements that were just vaguely described, like Freeza's army hiring mercenaries that could give trouble to the Z fighters, it could have been more memorable.

It does have some core issues though like Goku and Vegeta suddenly being unwilling to work together.

Nero<>Akira
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:05 am

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Nero<>Akira » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:31 pm

HeroR wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:I liked both. Hope the original is used in the manga tbh.

I honestly think most of the misgivings in the anime and manga are due to the writers directly working on them. Yes, AT isn't perfect, but both film versions of the first two arcs of Super were just done better originally in nearly every aspect. But, the some of the writers do deserve props since they've written things I know damn well AT wouldn't have done had he been the only one writing i.e. a lot of the recruitment material for the TOP and some in between episodes in each arc (who knows if he outlined any of these other stories himself though or those recruitment eps).

AT is just being a minimalist. Nothing wrong with that. over designed forms aren't really necessary anymore. but, if there was a well done creative form that wasn't overly done either, then I'd be all for it. I just feel AT's approach to God and UI are conveyed enough through his use of color and body type.
Can't really agree. Resurrection 'F' Saga was better than the movie in every way outside of animation and Goku vs. Freeza. Also, I prefer Battle of Gods Saga in many way over the movie since Goku actually fought Beerus in Super and Super Saiyan God actually looked strong instead of the wet fart it was in th movie.
HeroR wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: I feel like it's gonna be DBminus quality but on a bigger scale...

If it's connected to Yamoshi stuff then at least that part seems like it could be interesting.

If Toei's promise it will be visually amazing holds up then at least that's something to look forward too, I guess.
Can't agree since I like Minus and the biggest issue with it that it told too big of a story with too little pages. Also, comparing a story to a sketch is weird.

Minus in many ways suffered the same issues as the Future Trunks bonus chapter in the manga. It's rushed, but the bones of the actual story is fairly good.
the only thing better about the F arc was the Goku and Vegeta prelude to it and Gohan not wanting to slack anymore. same case with BoG. The only thing better about the arc itself was the stuff that happened before the events of the movie. When it comes to the content retold in the movie, it can't even be mentioned in the same breath. Goku vs Beerus was on a bigger scale but that really didn't help the fight. The fight in the film was so much better. We had nearly an entire episode on a blast collision between a kamehameha and a beerus blast. That was simply not good at all. then they made goku stronger than his god form in super saiyan when in the movie it was much more reasonable; his power barely decreased but still wasn't at even God level when he went super saiyan.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7934
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:00 am

Nero<>Akira wrote:
the only thing better about the F arc was the Goku and Vegeta prelude to it and Gohan not wanting to slack anymore. same case with BoG. The only thing better about the arc itself was the stuff that happened before the events of the movie. When it comes to the content retold in the movie, it can't even be mentioned in the same breath. Goku vs Beerus was on a bigger scale but that really didn't help the fight. The fight in the film was so much better. We had nearly an entire episode on a blast collision between a kamehameha and a beerus blast. That was simply not good at all. then they made goku stronger than his god form in super saiyan when in the movie it was much more reasonable; his power barely decreased but still wasn't at even God level when he went super saiyan.
Oh yes I can. Beerus vs Goku in the movie was a glorified sparring match with Goku doing better in Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan God, which made the entire form looked weak. It didn't helped that's the only real fight in the movie so the build up didn't match the payoff. The anime may have been long-winded, but it has some of my favorite scenes in the franchise and it did justice to Super Saiyan God despite the form losing. And Goku wast at 'god level' as a Super Saiyan since Goku did better as a Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan God. Heck, he did better in his base form.

Resurrection 'F', storywise easily superior to the movie in every way and it had a superior characterization of Freeza.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10275
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:49 am

HeroR wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:
the only thing better about the F arc was the Goku and Vegeta prelude to it and Gohan not wanting to slack anymore. same case with BoG. The only thing better about the arc itself was the stuff that happened before the events of the movie. When it comes to the content retold in the movie, it can't even be mentioned in the same breath. Goku vs Beerus was on a bigger scale but that really didn't help the fight. The fight in the film was so much better. We had nearly an entire episode on a blast collision between a kamehameha and a beerus blast. That was simply not good at all. then they made goku stronger than his god form in super saiyan when in the movie it was much more reasonable; his power barely decreased but still wasn't at even God level when he went super saiyan.
Oh yes I can. Beerus vs Goku in the movie was a glorified sparring match with Goku doing better in Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan God, which made the entire form looked weak. It didn't helped that's the only real fight in the movie so the build up didn't match the payoff. The anime may have been long-winded, but it has some of my favorite scenes in the franchise and it did justice to Super Saiyan God despite the form losing. And Goku wast at 'god level' as a Super Saiyan since Goku did better as a Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan God. Heck, he did better in his base form.

Resurrection 'F', storywise easily superior to the movie in every way and it had a superior characterization of Freeza.
Definitely agree with you re:BoG.

In the film none of the fights had actual weight no time for audience to get into them before they were over, as soon as SSG Goku vs Beerus gets good they stop chat in a cave and Goku dips out SSG.

But the big thing for me is Beerus. They fixed him in DBS. BoG movie we were constantly told he was this super scary GoD but never shown the only thing we did know was he was strong but in DBS they introduced him by actually destroying things thus audience we know what and who he is, and the idea to have Beerus remember SSG from the exploding planet was genius. And the big thing Beerus was actually scary for example #11 where Goku thinks he's figured Beerus out but then Beerus goes ham on him was great as he slammed him to the ground and started pounding him, that's what you expect from someone who has the title of "God of Destruction".

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21048
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:32 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:
the only thing better about the F arc was the Goku and Vegeta prelude to it and Gohan not wanting to slack anymore. same case with BoG. The only thing better about the arc itself was the stuff that happened before the events of the movie. When it comes to the content retold in the movie, it can't even be mentioned in the same breath. Goku vs Beerus was on a bigger scale but that really didn't help the fight. The fight in the film was so much better. We had nearly an entire episode on a blast collision between a kamehameha and a beerus blast. That was simply not good at all. then they made goku stronger than his god form in super saiyan when in the movie it was much more reasonable; his power barely decreased but still wasn't at even God level when he went super saiyan.
Oh yes I can. Beerus vs Goku in the movie was a glorified sparring match with Goku doing better in Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan God, which made the entire form looked weak. It didn't helped that's the only real fight in the movie so the build up didn't match the payoff. The anime may have been long-winded, but it has some of my favorite scenes in the franchise and it did justice to Super Saiyan God despite the form losing. And Goku wast at 'god level' as a Super Saiyan since Goku did better as a Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan God. Heck, he did better in his base form.

Resurrection 'F', storywise easily superior to the movie in every way and it had a superior characterization of Freeza.
Definitely agree with you re:BoG.

In the film none of the fights had actual weight no time for audience to get into them before they were over, as soon as SSG Goku vs Beerus gets good they stop chat in a cave and Goku dips out SSG.

But the big thing for me is Beerus. They fixed him in DBS. BoG movie we were constantly told he was this super scary GoD but never shown the only thing we did know was he was strong but in DBS they introduced him by actually destroying things thus audience we know what and who he is, and the idea to have Beerus remember SSG from the exploding planet was genius. And the big thing Beerus was actually scary for example #11 where Goku thinks he's figured Beerus out but then Beerus goes ham on him was great as he slammed him to the ground and started pounding him, that's what you expect from someone who has the title of "God of Destruction".
I just wished the BOG retelling in Super didn't have the reveal that Beerus ordered Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta. I fucking HATED that retcon.

Nero<>Akira
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:05 am

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Nero<>Akira » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:04 am

HeroR wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:
the only thing better about the F arc was the Goku and Vegeta prelude to it and Gohan not wanting to slack anymore. same case with BoG. The only thing better about the arc itself was the stuff that happened before the events of the movie. When it comes to the content retold in the movie, it can't even be mentioned in the same breath. Goku vs Beerus was on a bigger scale but that really didn't help the fight. The fight in the film was so much better. We had nearly an entire episode on a blast collision between a kamehameha and a beerus blast. That was simply not good at all. then they made goku stronger than his god form in super saiyan when in the movie it was much more reasonable; his power barely decreased but still wasn't at even God level when he went super saiyan.
Oh yes I can. Beerus vs Goku in the movie was a glorified sparring match with Goku doing better in Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan God, which made the entire form looked weak. It didn't helped that's the only real fight in the movie so the build up didn't match the payoff. The anime may have been long-winded, but it has some of my favorite scenes in the franchise and it did justice to Super Saiyan God despite the form losing. And Goku wast at 'god level' as a Super Saiyan since Goku did better as a Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan God. Heck, he did better in his base form.

Resurrection 'F', storywise easily superior to the movie in every way and it had a superior characterization of Freeza.
Well.. it was a sparring match lol Both of them just wanna fight. It only gets serious and more epic after they get in that cavern and i think they did a great job in that once Beerus actually blasted Goku back. It was like oh, then he added another blast on top of the main one and just the execution is like, "oh shit." The only "justice" it did to it in the anime was honestly having universe busting power. Beerus states his power didn't really drop too much. He can sense and I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. The only time goku did better in his super saiyan form was after he got serious and pissed. The moment they get in the stratosphere though, that wasn't enough. He can't land one hit on beerus. So, he wasn't stronger at all except in the arc retelling.

F arc wasn't better and until I hear a reason that doesn't involve Goku & Vegeta's scenes together and the start of the arc, it's not gonna change my outlook on it.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

Nero<>Akira
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:05 am

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Nero<>Akira » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:06 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Oh yes I can. Beerus vs Goku in the movie was a glorified sparring match with Goku doing better in Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan God, which made the entire form looked weak. It didn't helped that's the only real fight in the movie so the build up didn't match the payoff. The anime may have been long-winded, but it has some of my favorite scenes in the franchise and it did justice to Super Saiyan God despite the form losing. And Goku wast at 'god level' as a Super Saiyan since Goku did better as a Super Saiyan than Super Saiyan God. Heck, he did better in his base form.

Resurrection 'F', storywise easily superior to the movie in every way and it had a superior characterization of Freeza.
Definitely agree with you re:BoG.

In the film none of the fights had actual weight no time for audience to get into them before they were over, as soon as SSG Goku vs Beerus gets good they stop chat in a cave and Goku dips out SSG.

But the big thing for me is Beerus. They fixed him in DBS. BoG movie we were constantly told he was this super scary GoD but never shown the only thing we did know was he was strong but in DBS they introduced him by actually destroying things thus audience we know what and who he is, and the idea to have Beerus remember SSG from the exploding planet was genius. And the big thing Beerus was actually scary for example #11 where Goku thinks he's figured Beerus out but then Beerus goes ham on him was great as he slammed him to the ground and started pounding him, that's what you expect from someone who has the title of "God of Destruction".
I just wished the BOG retelling in Super didn't have the reveal that Beerus ordered Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta. I fucking HATED that retcon.
Freeza still destroyed the planet for his own reasons. In DB Minus, he still states why he is going to do what he's doing. So, it may be a retcon, but there's enough there to signify Freeza was gonna do it anyway. I was never bothered by it precisely because of this.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2217
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:22 am

With regards to the main topic, I'd say Yamamuro's design helped to give the Ultra Instinct a more distinguished appearance that differentiates it from the ordinary base and Super Saiyan forms.

Whilst I still would've preferred no hair colour change, I'm starting to warm up to the silver-white hair.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7934
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:24 am

Nero<>Akira wrote:
Well.. it was a sparring match lol Both of them just wanna fight. It only gets serious and more epic after they get in that cavern and i think they did a great job in that once Beerus actually blasted Goku back. It was like oh, then he added another blast on top of the main one and just the execution is like, "oh shit." The only "justice" it did to it in the anime was honestly having universe busting power. Beerus states his power didn't really drop too much. He can sense and I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. The only time goku did better in his super saiyan form was after he got serious and pissed. The moment they get in the stratosphere though, that wasn't enough. He can't land one hit on beerus. So, he wasn't stronger at all except in the arc retelling.

F arc wasn't better and until I hear a reason that doesn't involve Goku & Vegeta's scenes together and the start of the arc, it's not gonna change my outlook on it.
Having a fight that is the build up of the entire movie and the end the fight when it was started to get good is lackluster and the Super retelling did it better since you can see for Beerus it was a sparring match. For Goku, it was a life and death struggled with him putting everything he had and I loved the parallels.

It wasn't a rage boost and Goku in base scored a hit that winded Beerus and pissed him off. Which is more than Super Saiyan God ever did. He also landed several hits on Beerus in space, including Kamehameha.

You want a list for Resurrection 'F', happy to:

Tagoma was actually used instead of being a false extra and what Freeza did to him was both chilling and awesome. It also gave the Freeza Force one more powerful person instead of the showcase stomp they got in the movie. Especially since he personally took out Gohan who was the strongest of the group and put everyone on noticed.

Goten and Trunks sensing what was going on cleared a plot hole in the movie.

We're actually told Buu is asleep, which was missing in the movie. Which is strange since Buu sleeping is in the script and Toyo's version of Resurrection 'F', yet the movie just omitted the information despite Krillin mentioning Buu.

Freeza acknowledged the Z-Figthers more and targeted Krillin just to pissed Goku off. Krillin also had an understandable cast of PTSD over the person who blew him up from the inside. Which relates to 18 who wanted to fight with Krillin because she was worried about him, while the movie gave her the same air indifferent.

Gohan getting holes through him because he show of mercy toward Tagoma-Ginyu trigged Freeza. Freeza went ham on Gohan and tortured him while all his friends and family could only watched in horror. This shows that Freeza far from stable, it highlights Freeza's ruthless far more than the movie, and most importantly for me, it's punished Gohan for slacking off and not learning his lesson from the Buu Saga. And while Piccolo's sacrifice was rushed and could of have more emotional weight, it all highlights Gohan's failure and him admitting that he screwed up. In the movie, Gohan being weaker was an utterly moot plot point and didn't need to be there since he stomped everyone outside of Freeza, who couldn't beat at his best regardless. So why was Gohan being weak even there? This is something the retelling fixed by having Gohan struggled before Freeza came and really hammered home how much Gohan slacking off effective everything. He then slightly redeemed himself by summoning Goku and Vegeta to Earth with the last of his energy.

Freeza being an absolute dirty fighter who isn't interesting in winning 'fairly'. He tried to poke Goku in the eyes and directly target his friends in the middle of their battle. This far more foreshadowing of how Freeza planned to beat Goku with Sorbet than the movie, where Freeza more or less fought Goku fairly. Which really isn't within Freeza's nature. There is also how he trained, from the little we have seen. Namely, he trained not to beat Goku, he trained to tortured him to death using Tagamo as his test dummy. This is disturbing and so Freeza all at the same time.

All of Episode 27 is superior to the movie's ending which felt rushed after Freeza died. Vegeta's beatdown of Freeza was brutal, we actually see the people Freeza is killing in their final moments including baby Pan and Videl, and Gohan and Krillin actually react to their families dying. For some reason in the movie, only Bulma cried over her family's death, while Gohan and Krillin didn't even mention theirs and were more sad for Bulma. Gohan running to make sure Videl and Pan were okay and hugging them was the icing on the cake.

And these are the reasons why the retelling is superior to the movie story-wise and I never mentioned any of Goku and Vegeta's training.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

Post Reply