Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:35 pm

I've had a thought what if Toriyama's version is how Goku looks period after the ToP? And whenever he engages in battle his hair goes wild.

It's the only explanation I have for why Toriyama designed it as such, because as others I'm at a loss for words otherwise.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:47 pm

I'd rather they follow Toriyama's designs and guidelines whenever he provides them, so no. He didn't save anything. Nothing needed saving to begin with.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by t0ffe3m4n » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:26 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:I'd rather they follow Toriyama's designs and guidelines whenever he provides them, so no. He didn't save anything. Nothing needed saving to begin with.
So you'd have preferred a design that just looked like a Super Saiyan God color swap?

Yikes..

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:33 pm

t0ffe3m4n wrote:
Luso Saiyan wrote:I'd rather they follow Toriyama's designs and guidelines whenever he provides them, so no. He didn't save anything. Nothing needed saving to begin with.
So you'd have preferred a design that just looked like a Super Saiyan God color swap?

Yikes..
This...and I love and admire Toriyama greatly...but even geniuses fail on rare occasion.....

I don't know what happened or what Toriyama was thinking, but his drawing of mastered UI Goku was absolutely terrible. Like I wasn't expecting that at all...it was awful..

Thank god for Yamamuro

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:41 pm

t0ffe3m4n wrote:So you'd have preferred a design that just looked like a Super Saiyan God color swap?
I prefer however he envisions his characters to be as opposed to what fans want it to be. He should know, he created it.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:46 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
t0ffe3m4n wrote:So you'd have preferred a design that just looked like a Super Saiyan God color swap?
I prefer however he envisions his characters to be as opposed to what fans want it to be. He should know, he created it.
If he was so keen on his idea, he wouldn’t let anyone changed it like he did with Super Saiyan God. That didn’t happen here.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:53 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
t0ffe3m4n wrote:So you'd have preferred a design that just looked like a Super Saiyan God color swap?
I prefer however he envisions his characters to be as opposed to what fans want it to be. He should know, he created it.
Err Yamumuro isn't some random fan on the internet. You do realise that the drawing of mastered UI Goku in the Vjump scan is from Yamamuro, right? It's NOT fan art

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:56 am

HeroR wrote:If he was so keen on his idea, he wouldn’t let anyone changed it like he did with Super Saiyan God. That didn’t happen here.
You don't know that.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:Err Yamumuro isn't some random fan on the internet. You do realise that the drawing of mastered UI Goku in the Vjump scan is from Yamamuro, right? It's NOT fan art
Nobody said he was "some random fan on the internet". His design is different from what Toriyama drew because he adapted it based on what he, as a fan, wants it to be (or thinks that's what fans want, which is an even worse mindset). As opposed to what Toriyama drew.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by mute_proxy » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:07 am

For some reason I don't like the hair remodeling, I mean I get the base hair, or the straight up SS hair, but the hair being just a bit lifted and motionless, just doesn't feel right. I do prefer the black haired version over the silver one, but if I were to chose between the silver designs, I'd pick Toriyama's

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:13 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:If he was so keen on his idea, he wouldn’t let anyone changed it like he did with Super Saiyan God. That didn’t happen here.
You don't know that.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:Err Yamumuro isn't some random fan on the internet. You do realise that the drawing of mastered UI Goku in the Vjump scan is from Yamamuro, right? It's NOT fan art
Nobody said he was "some random fan on the internet". His design is different from what Toriyama drew because he adapted it based on what he, as a fan, wants it to be (or thinks that's what fans want, which is an even worse mindset). As opposed to what Toriyama drew.
Toriyama fought to have his design of Super Saiyan God despite all the changes they tried to do with it like give Goku more muscle. He was adamant that this was what Super Saiyan God was going to look like. The fact that they changed UI Goku's design compared to Toriyama should tell you that he didn't care as much, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:16 pm

HeroR wrote:Toriyama fought to have his design of Super Saiyan God despite all the changes they tried to do with it like give Goku more muscle. He was adamant that this was what Super Saiyan God was going to look like. The fact that they changed UI Goku's design compared to Toriyama should tell you that he didn't care as much, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.
Or they were the ones who ceased to care about being 100% faithful. We don't know. What I do know is that it's not how it was designed, and to me, they should be faithful to whatever Toriyama provides them.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:19 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:Toriyama fought to have his design of Super Saiyan God despite all the changes they tried to do with it like give Goku more muscle. He was adamant that this was what Super Saiyan God was going to look like. The fact that they changed UI Goku's design compared to Toriyama should tell you that he didn't care as much, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.
Or they were the ones who ceased to care about being 100% faithful. We don't know. What I do know is that it's not how it was designed, and to me, they should be faithful to whatever Toriyama provides them.
Very unlikely since they stuck true to almost all of Toriyama's designs up to this point with them given Future Trunks blue hair. And again, they tried to changed Toriyama's design for Super Saiyan God and Toriayama said 'no' and refused to bend on the subject. If Toriyama wanted that design for UI, it wouldn't have changed since we have real history when something like this happened. Not just a 'what if'.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:28 pm

HeroR wrote:Very unlikely since they stuck true to almost all of Toriyama's designs up to this point with them given Future Trunks blue hair.
It's been a while since then. And he had blue air in his Battle of Gods design. They didn't change it then. Yet that's how he wanted it to be, considering that he drew him again with blue hair several arcs later.
HeroR wrote:And again, they tried to changed Toriyama's design for Super Saiyan God and Toriayama said 'no' and refused to bend on the subject.
Fortunately.
HeroR wrote:If Toriyama wanted that design for UI, it wouldn't have changed since we have real history when something like this happened. Not just a 'what if'.
Toriyama did want that design for UI, otherwise he wouldn't have done it.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:50 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:Very unlikely since they stuck true to almost all of Toriyama's designs up to this point with them given Future Trunks blue hair.
It's been a while since then. And he had blue air in his Battle of Gods design. They didn't change it then. Yet that's how he wanted it to be, considering that he drew him again with blue hair several arcs later.
HeroR wrote:And again, they tried to changed Toriyama's design for Super Saiyan God and Toriayama said 'no' and refused to bend on the subject.
Fortunately.
HeroR wrote:If Toriyama wanted that design for UI, it wouldn't have changed since we have real history when something like this happened. Not just a 'what if'.
Toriyama did want that design for UI, otherwise he wouldn't have done it.
Been awhile, but we still have history that tells us if Toriyama wants something, it happens. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. So the fact that he allowed Toei to make changes to his original design should tell you that he didn't mind the changes. So trying to say 'well, that was a while ago', really doesn't cut it here. Especially when one of the writers of Super actually said that Toriyama has the final word on everything and all anyone can do is give him suggestions.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Timetraveller » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:37 pm

HeroR wrote:
Luso Saiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:Toriyama fought to have his design of Super Saiyan God despite all the changes they tried to do with it like give Goku more muscle. He was adamant that this was what Super Saiyan God was going to look like. The fact that they changed UI Goku's design compared to Toriyama should tell you that he didn't care as much, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.
Or they were the ones who ceased to care about being 100% faithful. We don't know. What I do know is that it's not how it was designed, and to me, they should be faithful to whatever Toriyama provides them.
Very unlikely since they stuck true to almost all of Toriyama's designs up to this point with them given Future Trunks blue hair. And again, they tried to changed Toriyama's design for Super Saiyan God and Toriayama said 'no' and refused to bend on the subject. If Toriyama wanted that design for UI, it wouldn't have changed since we have real history when something like this happened. Not just a 'what if'.
Had they known that all of Toriyama's new designs would be recolors done with very little thought and effort, Toei would've probably just gotten someone with more creative talent for designing characters to do the designs. Someone like Nakatasuru

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:40 pm

HeroR wrote:Been awhile, but we still have history that tells us if Toriyama wants something, it happens. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Again, why are you implying that he doesn't want what he draws? He is drawing it, hence that's how he envisions it, hence that's why he wants it to be. No ifs, ands or buts.
HeroR wrote:So the fact that he allowed Toei to make changes to his original design should tell you that he didn't mind the changes.
Or he does mind the changes and they go with it anyway. An equally perfectly valid conclusion.
HeroR wrote:Especially when one of the writers of Super actually said that Toriyama has the final word on everything and all anyone can do is give him suggestions.
Oh really? So why has he expressed criticism on the anime in the past (the extent of which is unknown)? Why do they change things that he provided if he has final word? Again, they are the ones changing the original design.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:48 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:Been awhile, but we still have history that tells us if Toriyama wants something, it happens. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Again, why are you implying that he doesn't want what he draws? He is drawing it, hence that's how he envisions it, hence that's why he wants it to be. No ifs, ands or buts.
HeroR wrote:So the fact that he allowed Toei to make changes to his original design should tell you that he didn't mind the changes.
Or he does mind the changes and they go with it anyway. An equally perfectly valid conclusion.
HeroR wrote:Especially when one of the writers of Super actually said that Toriyama has the final word on everything and all anyone can do is give him suggestions.
Oh really? So why has he expressed criticism on the anime in the past (the extent of which is unknown)? Why do they change things that he provided if he has final word? Again, they are the ones changing the original design.
As I said, history along with people who actually works on the show saying Toriyama has the final word on everything and all they can do is make suggestions like how Toyo suggested Vegetto and made Zamasu stronger. So Toei couldn’t just strong armed their design. So it’s weird that you’re using ‘they made changes’ as an argument when people in the know outright said Toriyama’s gets the final word. Unless you think they’re lying.

And as far as we know, Toriyama’s version maybe closer to a rough draft, not the completed version

Finally “he expressed criticism on the anime in the past”, yeah but in what? Animation, storyboarding, them not using his ideas?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:22 pm

HeroR wrote:As I said, history along with people who actually works on the show saying Toriyama has the final word on everything and all they can do is make suggestions like how Toyo suggested Vegetto and made Zamasu stronger. So Toei couldn’t just strong armed their design. So it’s weird that you’re using ‘they made changes’ as an argument when people in the know outright said Toriyama’s gets the final word. Unless you think they’re lying.
You're the one implying that Toriyama doesn't want what he draws, which is completely ludicrous. If he has final word, how come they go out of their way to change what he provided? Do they assume they know better? Do you think he enforced Trunks' blue hair? No. So much so that they did nothing. But he drew him that way since BoG. Only during the Future Trunks arc did they care enough to change him (but not his younger self). Toriyama didn't forced them to do it. Otherwise they would have done that right in the beginning.

And were are not talking about filling story gaps. We are talking about character design.
HeroR wrote:And as far as we know, Toriyama’s version maybe closer to a rough draft, not the completed version
And maybe not. That's your assumption.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:50 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:As I said, history along with people who actually works on the show saying Toriyama has the final word on everything and all they can do is make suggestions like how Toyo suggested Vegetto and made Zamasu stronger. So Toei couldn’t just strong armed their design. So it’s weird that you’re using ‘they made changes’ as an argument when people in the know outright said Toriyama’s gets the final word. Unless you think they’re lying.
You're the one implying that Toriyama doesn't want what he draws, which is completely ludicrous. If he has final word, how come they go out of their way to change what he provided? Do they assume they know better? Do you think he enforced Trunks' blue hair? No. So much so that they did nothing. But he drew him that way since BoG. Only during the Future Trunks arc did they care enough to change him (but not his younger self). Toriyama didn't forced them to do it. Otherwise they would have done that right in the beginning.

And were are not talking about filling story gaps. We are talking about character design.
HeroR wrote:And as far as we know, Toriyama’s version maybe closer to a rough draft, not the completed version
And maybe not. That's your assumption.

No. I am saying if Toriyama wanted what he drew, that would be in the show like he did for Super Saiyan God. You’re the one saying or implying Toei forced it, ignored what Toriyama wanted, despite people who worked in Super saying that Toriyama has the final word. In fact, he redrew Zamasu in the Super manga because he didn’t like how Toyo did it orginally.

Why the change happened isn’t known. But it wasn’t done without Toriyama’s permission based on everything we know about Super’s production.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by mute_proxy » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:54 pm

HeroR wrote: No. I am saying if Toriyama wanted what he drew, that would be in the show like he did for Super Saiyan God. You’re the one saying or implying Toei forced it, ignored what Toriyama wanted, despite people who worked in Super saying that Toriyama has the final word. In fact, he redrew Zamasu in the Super manga because he didn’t like how Toyo did it orginally.

Why the change happened isn’t known. But it wasn’t done without Toriyama’s permission based on everything we know about Super’s production.
So what you're saying Toriyama wanted a false black haired UI, a new random Vegeta form, SSRage and a Vegeta clone arc also? Say what you will, Toei DOES have a lot of liberties.

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