Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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HeroR
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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:57 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
HeroR wrote: No. I am saying if Toriyama wanted what he drew, that would be in the show like he did for Super Saiyan God. You’re the one saying or implying Toei forced it, ignored what Toriyama wanted, despite people who worked in Super saying that Toriyama has the final word. In fact, he redrew Zamasu in the Super manga because he didn’t like how Toyo did it orginally.

Why the change happened isn’t known. But it wasn’t done without Toriyama’s permission based on everything we know about Super’s production.
So what you're saying Toriyama wanted a false black haired UI, a new random Vegeta form, SSRage and a Vegeta clone arc also? Say what you will, Toei DOES have a lot of liberties.
He approves the script. So yes.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by sintzu » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:24 pm

As far as I know we haven't gotten a Toriyama design for Omen UI so if it also doesn't show up in the manga then we'll know for sure it wasn't from Toriyama.
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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by mute_proxy » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:33 pm

HeroR wrote:
He approves the script. So yes.
Source for this please. The only "approvement" I've seen from him came towards Toyotaro.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Helios518 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:51 pm

TBH this is one of the only time I believe the creator's vision being changed is actually good and I consider myself pretty purist in what Toriyama wants but I doubt Toriyama dislikes this change otherwise he would've fought for it like he the SSJG design especially for the form that's going to end the series. That's my guess though, we'll see when UI appears in the manga.
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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by majinwarman » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:56 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
HeroR wrote:
He approves the script. So yes.
Source for this please. The only "approvement" I've seen from him came towards Toyotaro.
It has been stated in multiple interviews by Toriyama in the recent years while Super is on air.
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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:26 pm

HeroR wrote:No. I am saying if Toriyama wanted what he drew, that would be in the show like he did for Super Saiyan God.
And since they changed, you're saying that he didn't want what he drew. You can't have it both ways. Besides, you can't make that statement. Not to mention that the SSG design and related discussion was done for the movie, not the anime or the manga. Both take from what was established in the movie.
HeroR wrote:You’re the one saying or implying Toei forced it, ignored what Toriyama wanted, despite people who worked in Super saying that Toriyama has the final word.
I'm saying that are not forced to adapt what he provides them 100%. That's evident from their track record, where details are not taken into the designs that the anime puts out there. Trunks' hair color is one example.
HeroR wrote:In fact, he redrew Zamasu in the Super manga because he didn’t like how Toyo did it orginally.
Who's talking about the manga?
HeroR wrote:Why the change happened isn’t known. But it wasn’t done without Toriyama’s permission based on everything we know about Super’s production.
You don't know enough about its production or his level of involvement for you to make that statement.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:19 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
HeroR wrote:
He approves the script. So yes.
Source for this please. The only "approvement" I've seen from him came towards Toyotaro.
So Toyo isn't a valid source now? And the producer of the Future Trunks Saga outright said that Toriyama has the final word on everything.

Using Toyo's exact quote:

Q: I've heard Toriyama has a direct role into your work, right?

T: Not only mine: he supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by HeroR » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:23 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
HeroR wrote:No. I am saying if Toriyama wanted what he drew, that would be in the show like he did for Super Saiyan God.
And since they changed, you're saying that he didn't want what he drew. You can't have it both ways. Besides, you can't make that statement. Not to mention that the SSG design and related discussion was done for the movie, not the anime or the manga. Both take from what was established in the movie.
HeroR wrote:You’re the one saying or implying Toei forced it, ignored what Toriyama wanted, despite people who worked in Super saying that Toriyama has the final word.
I'm saying that are not forced to adapt what he provides them 100%. That's evident from their track record, where details are not taken into the designs that the anime puts out there. Trunks' hair color is one example.
HeroR wrote:In fact, he redrew Zamasu in the Super manga because he didn’t like how Toyo did it orginally.
Who's talking about the manga?
HeroR wrote:Why the change happened isn’t known. But it wasn’t done without Toriyama’s permission based on everything we know about Super’s production.
You don't know enough about its production or his level of involvement for you to make that statement.
It changed because Toriyama allowed it. I am not having it both ways. Toriyama drew the original sketch. Toei changed. Toriyama okay it, and thus this is the form of UI we have in the anime. Also, Toriyama said that the processed used to write Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' is used for Super. So why are we treating Super like it's vastly different here?

Except he people who worked on the show more or less say otherwise, unless you think they are really lying.

Yes, he redrew Zamasu in the manga because he didn't like how Toyo did it.

I can by what has been said by people working on Super such at this statement from Toyo:

Q: I've heard Toriyama has a direct role into your work, right?

T: Not only mine: he supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by buutenks » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:47 am

Could be Toriyama just draws everyone skinny these days.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Timetraveller » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:45 am

buutenks wrote:Could be Toriyama just draws everyone skinny these days.
It's not so much that he draws everyone skinny. It's that he reused the same design for SSG but changed the hair color to white

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:55 am

Timetraveller wrote:
buutenks wrote:Could be Toriyama just draws everyone skinny these days.
It's not so much that he draws everyone skinny. It's that he reused the same design for SSG but changed the hair color to white
Making him stand differently or removing his shirt wouldn't change anything. It's a design sketch, not a piece of artwork.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Cipher » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:44 am

I actually really wish they'd kept the skinny design instead of going, "Okay, got it. Beef-monster."

I don't have more to add to this post.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:59 am

sintzu wrote:As far as I know we haven't gotten a Toriyama design for Omen UI so if it also doesn't show up in the manga then we'll know for sure it wasn't from Toriyama.
No, not really. Toriyama isn't wrong for the Manga but the anime. We know Namekian Book of Legends came from him and that wasn't in the Manga. And besides the whole Vegetto thing should rubbish any of this silly it's in the Manga therefore it is the outline.

Besides it does not matter at all, DBS is not a Toriyama product at all, he is only guiding the project. And it is probably for the better after the ResF story, DB Minus and now this UI debacle it is obvious this man cannot be trusted with creative freedom anymore.

I am worried about the new movie...a lot.
Last edited by Baggie_Saiyan on Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Timetraveller » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:02 am

Cipher wrote:I actually really wish they'd kept the skinny design instead of going, "Okay, got it. Beef-monster."

I don't have more to add to this post.
I really wish Toriyama used a bit of creativity instead of just coloring base Goku's hair white. Yamamuro at least changed his hair style a little

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Fizzer » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:10 am

Man, the white hair would look so much better with the RoF outfit. It would really give Goku an old "grand master" vibe to him.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by sintzu » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:01 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:I am worried about the new movie...a lot.
I think it's going to be one of those things where it'll either be really good or really bad and the fanbase will be split in the middle about. I really wish they did something new instead.
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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:46 am

sintzu wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:I am worried about the new movie...a lot.
I think it's going to be one of those things where it'll either be really good or really bad and the fanbase will be split in the middle about. I really wish they did something new instead.
I feel like it's gonna be DBminus quality but on a bigger scale...

If it's connected to Yamoshi stuff then at least that part seems like it could be interesting.

If Toei's promise it will be visually amazing holds up then at least that's something to look forward too, I guess.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by sintzu » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:53 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:If Toei's promise it will be visually amazing holds up then at least that's something to look forward too, I guess.
Based on what they said I think it'll be the best DB piece from a production point of view, what worries me is the writing as Toriyama working alone lately hasn't ended with the best results.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by Nero<>Akira » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:06 am

I liked both. Hope the original is used in the manga tbh.

I honestly think most of the misgivings in the anime and manga are due to the writers directly working on them. Yes, AT isn't perfect, but both film versions of the first two arcs of Super were just done better originally in nearly every aspect. But, the some of the writers do deserve props since they've written things I know damn well AT wouldn't have done had he been the only one writing i.e. a lot of the recruitment material for the TOP and some in between episodes in each arc (who knows if he outlined any of these other stories himself though or those recruitment eps).

AT is just being a minimalist. Nothing wrong with that. over designed forms aren't really necessary anymore. but, if there was a well done creative form that wasn't overly done either, then I'd be all for it. I just feel AT's approach to God and UI are conveyed enough through his use of color and body type.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Has Yamamuro Saved Ultra Instinct?

Post by ernesth100 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:49 am

Asura wrote:
Image
I'm sorry that picture of Goku with his gi on just looks like SSG recolored.

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