Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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buutenks
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Re: Is theTOP the worst saga in the db universe?

Post by buutenks » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:42 am

ToP has some PL inconsistencies but not that great, tho in terms of how many times u can rewatch it, for me atleast it is far above any DB arc, be it Z, original or GT.

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Re: Is theTOP the worst saga in the db universe?

Post by SsjCookie » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:06 am

julianix wrote:I honestlt feel like the TOP is the worst saga we've ever had.

Honestly besides android 17 what else have they handled well? The selection of characters, their development, the fights, the tension, the drama, the execution of major moments have for the most part been bad.

The decision to make an anti/hero the antagonist was smart, but Jiren is not that guy. He's beyond saving imo. What can he honestly do now to make his character interesting?

The way they mishandled two major characters was also a huge let down. Vegeta and Gohan were botched and in a very bad way.

They couldn't figure out how to use majin Buu ok I give them that. And up until the last couple episodes they handled frieza very well. But now it seems he's going down the drain again.

Gokus ultra instinct? I guess.

To each his own I guess.
Some people loved it, some people hated it, and some people are somewhere in between.

I'll admit I'm not a fan of this arc, there were some good things in it like Freeza, 17 and Roshi, but I felt that the majority of the cast was not used to it's full potential at all.

Krillin and Tien were poorly handled, why bring them back in the first place?
Gohan and Piccolo were both mediocre characters in this arc and I expected way more of them.
18 was okay.
Vegeta and Goku always have the same boring dynamic. (Goku on top and Vegeta eternal second)

I felt that 17 and Frieza were the only characters that made this tournament a bit more watchable
So yeah it wasn't all bad, just most of it.

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Re: Is theTOP the worst saga in the db universe?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:59 am

Not a chance. This arc (and I'm grouping it with the pre-tournament episodes) is currently in my top 3 favorite arcs in all of Dragon Ball. Yeah, there are some issues, but nothing that adversely affects how much entertainment I get out of the arc as a whole. I feel binge watching this arc will do it a much better service.

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Re: Is theTOP the worst saga in the db universe?

Post by Asura » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:26 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I feel binge watching this arc will do it a much better service.
Yup, I 100% agree with this. I have a friend who was casually into Super, finished the FT arc but wasn’t that crazy about it or the show in general. I showed him 110 when it aired and he thought it was cool but didn’t seem all that excited about it.

A few weeks ago he told me he decided to start watching the show again on a whim starting from episode 77. He binge watched 30-40 episodes in like two days and told me how much he was enjoying the show now and how awesome Ultra Instinct is.

It’s nice having a friend to talk about the show with now, and I didn’t even have to force him to watch it, haha.

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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by The gr » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:43 pm

It isn't the worst arc,is just frustrating but it has a lot of good stuff.

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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by precita » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:46 pm

The power level and stamina drains is the worst flaws of the TOP arc. It's gotten to the point where you can't get invested in Goku/Vegeta's final fights when they're handled so poorly.

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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:53 pm

For DBZ standards I don't like it besides some aspects. In general I like it. It's the most entertaining anime that is out right now.
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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:03 pm

I’ve expressed my thoughts in another thread on why it’s one of the worst. I’ll copy those here

The arc so episodic like many American cartoons are. The writing feels like they forget what happened 4 seconds prior. Also for a battle royale where everything is supposed to be happening at the same time, events happen in consequence. Characters disappear for episodes at a time and just turns out they were standing still doing nothing the whole time.

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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by Zagacious » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:57 pm

At its best there are moments that are slightly better than the best moments of DBZ. At its worst it's basically just filler. The worst part about it is underutilizing new characters very badly. The best part is how it utilized old characters like Roshi, although Gohan,Tien, and Piccolo were for the most part wasted. Universe 9 being eliminated in basically one episode.

It also feels extremely disconnected from episode to episode which makes it obvious at times when the writers aren't communicating. Stuff like Jiren being untouchable by SSB Goku in the special then literally minutes later people like 17 can briefly spar with him. Jiren felt like a much bigger threat at the beginning. Also the random fights starting then never finishing.

The ending is feeling extremely rushed though and I think that's the worst part, obvious Vegeta should have won against Toppo, but the way they did it was horrible. Vegeta just whiping out the Hakais with basic energy blasts. That fight should have been two episodes

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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by GohanHiddenPowers » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:09 pm

Well, the ToP arc had a lot of broken promises, and a very anti-climatic ending, if we look at the spoilers and final episodes. I predicted that everything would be a copy of what was the end of the fight against Kid Boo. I.e., Goku and Vegeta's show, the villain beating Vegeta, with Goku waiting for the perfect timing to enter the fight. So I'm accumulating the episodes, and following the spoilers and discussions over the internet. Practically "watching" through these readings, in discussion forums, youtube comment session, videos with reviews, etc. I've been doing this since episode 120. I think Future Trunks and Zamasu's arcs remains absolute at the frist place, not because of future Trunks. It's because it's the only arc in Super with a villain being villainous. A real villain, not just an antagonist. And i say this while thinking that Zamasu loses in comparison with all DBZ villain, whoever they are, movie or anime villains. And DBZ was exactly this: memorable fights with memorable villains, with a lot of cool soundtracks, cool transformations, not only for Goku and Vegeta, but Gohan too. Even Piccolo had his moments. I would say that Baby's arc, from DBFT, is better than ToP of Super, at some moments.

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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by ulisa » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:18 pm

Is it the worst arc ever? No. I can’t say it’s that bad but I will say that for the most part, I haven’t enjoyed it. It definitely had room for improvement and I will agree with others who have attested it is far too long. If you cut its length in half, you would have improved a lot of the issues. I do like certain moments within it but honestly, it’s been boring to me. I would have preferred some of the time used for the tournament to be put towards another small arc.
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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by PFM18 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:05 pm

I am not sure that people understand that throughout the first several episodes they were showing events that were happening simultaneously but couldn't show several things happening at once so they were shown sequentially.(Obviously you can only show one thing at a time on screen) To the point where a guy made a Youtube video showing the events in "real time" showing different things happening on 3-5 different screens. Because it is all happening simultaneously they didn't have characters reacting to every little thing because they were supposed to be watching any particular event and not all at once. I think that this confuses a lot of people and they write it off as "bad writing."

In fact, anything in this arc that people don't understand they automatically identify as "bad writing." (don't get me wrong there is some bad writing in this arc) I mean the whole idea of insulting the show for not having a true "villian" isn't fair becasuse that is the way that the tournament is designed and part of the reason there is a tournament it is supposed to create tension that all these good people are being killed rather than a villian that people want to be killed. Jiren could be a better character but he purposely isn't a villian but an extremely cocky guy with very good intentions and is a hero in his own universe. That is by design.

To me, this arc has given many moments that are better than anything in the rest of the entire Dragon ball series. It gave us Vegeta's first true victory that actually meant something. They could have made his fight with Toppo better but it was the first time in the series that Vegeta won a fight that actually meant anything because had Vegeta not beat Toppo they almost certainly would have lost and the universe would have been erased. He also never outright defeated a relatively major antagonist like this before. I love how they portray Vegeta as the true rival to Goku and he shows that he is actually a proud warrior not a pathetic loser that never accomplished everything like in DBZ or DBGT. Additionally, I like how they portray Gohan as being a strategic smart person rather than being ridiculously strong for absolutely no reason like in DBZ. (He barely trained or worked to acquire his strength throughout the entirety of the rest of the series.) I mean look at Android 17 he was handled extremely well too.

I am in the middle of rewatching this arc in huge chunks and I appreciate it even more. In my opinion, it is miles ahead of anything in DBGT and slightly better than the Future Trunks arc, comfortably better than the Buu arc and just slightly behind the Namek arc and the Cell/Android saga.

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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by Doctor. » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:43 pm

Yes, it's awful. I can at least say that every other arc TRIES to make sense. I don't think anyone was particularly worried about making sense when writing this disaster of an arc.

I can't understand those that say binge watching it will improve your perception of the arc. If anything, it will make all the structural problems of the arc even clearer.

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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:54 pm

It's pretty bad and I can't imagine a binge would help at all, it honestly might make it worse. Hell binging it from 122 onwards alone would be insufferable just thanks to Vegeta.
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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by GamerSkull » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:56 pm

I think it's better than a lot of filler arcs and it had a strong start both with the recruitment stuff (aside from a few moments) and the initial episodes of the Tournament itself. And apart from the Ultra Instinct episodes, it's been rather dull otherwise. Hoping for an enjoyable final fight though but as far as the arc goes, I think it's worse than all the canon arcs of the original series/manga.

Not to mention that the pacing isn't something I can get behind... especially since thought DBZ's five minutes before Namek explodes was also stupid pacing.
ekrolo2 wrote:It's pretty bad and I can't imagine a binge would help at all, it honestly might make it worse. Hell binging it from 122 onwards alone would be insufferable just thanks to Vegeta.
I binged it because I was trying to catch up to the weekly releases. From start all the way to Vegeta's fight with Toppo a couple of weeks ago. I felt burnt out and I couldn't imagine having to wait weekly for a new episode, especially when the episodes of characters that the viewer wasn't fan of came out that week.
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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by 8bitdee » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:53 pm

As someone mentioned before, it feels too much like American cartoons. Too episodic, with a "villain of the week" vibe to it, where most of the conflicts were resolved within 1-2 episodes to really feel any weight or seriousness to them, especially when you knew the end game was Goku vs Jiren no matter how you sliced it. The idea of a battle royale sounded really great at first but it's definitely something Toei was not able to handle with better care.

I think any other DB arc (not counting DBGT) beats anything Super has produced, so I dont think it's a fair comparison. Yes, even the Buu arc.

It's not as bad as the Goku Black arc for me, though.

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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by kn83 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:31 pm

8bitdee wrote:As someone mentioned before, it feels too much like American cartoons. Too episodic, with a "villain of the week" vibe to it, where most of the conflicts were resolved within 1-2 episodes to really feel any weight or seriousness to them, especially when you knew the end game was Goku vs Jiren no matter how you sliced it. The idea of a battle royale sounded really great at first but it's definitely something Toei was not able to handle with better care.

I think any other DB arc (not counting DBGT) beats anything Super has produced, so I dont think it's a fair comparison. Yes, even the Buu arc.

It's not as bad as the Goku Black arc for me, though.
No way in hell are the Pilaf, Buu and even the Android arcs better than the Black arc.

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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by Lujin_16 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:16 pm

I enjoyed TOP more than the Cell or Boo saga

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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by Lujin_16 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:20 pm

kn83 wrote:
8bitdee wrote:As someone mentioned before, it feels too much like American cartoons. Too episodic, with a "villain of the week" vibe to it, where most of the conflicts were resolved within 1-2 episodes to really feel any weight or seriousness to them, especially when you knew the end game was Goku vs Jiren no matter how you sliced it. The idea of a battle royale sounded really great at first but it's definitely something Toei was not able to handle with better care.

I think any other DB arc (not counting DBGT) beats anything Super has produced, so I dont think it's a fair comparison. Yes, even the Buu arc.

It's not as bad as the Goku Black arc for me, though.
No way in hell are the Pilaf, Buu and even the Android arcs better than the Black arc.

the Black Goku arc is in my top 3 with frieza and king piccolo saga

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Re: Your thoughts on the Tournament of Power compared to the Dragon World's other arcs

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:29 pm

I think its the worst arc in the series for me. The worst.

There was nothing of substance to it beyond just straight up fighting, fighting logic didn't make sense half the time, and the general logic and infamous plot-stamina, zig-zagging didn't even help the lack of tension and had a snails pace. Then there was the clear inconsistency between writers, and the lack of any sub-plots, terribly designed and generic characters, and most of them didn't even take the stakes seriously at all. Then there was way too much emphasis on protecting certain characters in ways that it looked obvious.

It also inflated the worst of DB's tropes to the forefront of what we saw but the issue I have with it is, that it really felt less like Z and more like just a mash up of all the common Shounen cliches today played straight. Friendship power ups, friendship speeches, momentary melodrama, antagonists being brick walls until the last fight, etc. All of the worst. It just did not feel like an organic and really shown me how limited Tournament arcs can be because, the characters can't leave the ring to do anything else in between plot-points unlike the Cell & Buu arcs.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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