It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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TheOtherDude
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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by TheOtherDude » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:40 pm

Raphael_Z wrote:
TheOtherDude wrote:
GamerSkull wrote:
I still find it weird that Roshi is depicted the way he is in Super when he should have reached his peak around the Piccolo Daimao arc in terms of power.
Exactly. Roshi would’ve gotten demolished by Raditz, but here he is. Toei sprinkled a little bit of “he was training this entire time” and now everyone defends it like it’s perfectly fine and that nothing is odd about it. If you ignored the rest of dragon ball and only watched super, you’d think Roshi and Piccolo were on par with each other.


Everyone complaining in this thread about the lack of relevance of Trunks and Goten so far is going to feel extremely silly if the next Dragon Ball series has them in main character roles.
Well, current Android 17 is Blue level despite the fact that he was easily outclassed by Kami-fused Piccolo back in the Android Saga. He trained, he got stronger, that's all there is to it.

Many characters have "peaked" only for them to get stronger and stronger once the plot requires it. For example, Vegeta has "peaked" and become stagnant in two occasions (first time was the 5 years gap between Cell and Boo Saga, second was the 5 year gap between Boo Saga and Battle of the Gods).

It isn't THAT hard to believe that Roshi (who is a 100% human therefore his limit should be the same as the one of Krillin, Tien and Yamcha) could become stronger than what he currently is.

Also, wasn't it established in Super than both Base Vegeta and Base Goku are now stronger than SJJ3 Gotenks? The kid's power has really fallen once they stopped training. I think that both Trunks and Goten had the potential of being Super's version of Cell Games Gohan but Toriyama just doesn't care about them.
For starters Goten and Trunks haven’t stopped training. They’re as strong as they are because they were fighting each other all these years. Not once have I ever heard they stopped training. In fact, Goten was seen in the anime wanting to go train with Goku.

How long have you been watching dragon ball? No sane person would think Roshi has always been capable of this kind of stuff when he passed the torch to Tien, Goku etc all the way back in dragon ball. He didn’t even stand a chance against king piccolo, who would get stomped by Raditz. Who would get annihilated by saiyan saga Vegeta. Who would also get completely murdered against the Ginyu Force etc. The gap between ssb tier and where Roshi is being placed now are not comparable. At least with 17, you can use the excuse that nobody can detect his energy so how would anyone sense him?

I don’t have a reason for why ss3 gitenks got destroyed by base Vegeta. I’ve learned that toei takes too much liberty in filler episodes and it’s always controversial. This is the same series that in a filler episode in Z, Goku used ssj and kaioken at the same time. Yeah he was dead when it happened, but there clearly would’ve been some stamina issues after doing it. I promise you that they weren’t thinking about their previous work in Z when they made ssb and kaioken compatible. Point is, toei doesn’t care about consistency, so I try to take what they add in with a grain of salt.

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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by GamerSkull » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:02 pm

TheOtherDude wrote:
Raphael_Z wrote:
TheOtherDude wrote:
Exactly. Roshi would’ve gotten demolished by Raditz, but here he is. Toei sprinkled a little bit of “he was training this entire time” and now everyone defends it like it’s perfectly fine and that nothing is odd about it. If you ignored the rest of dragon ball and only watched super, you’d think Roshi and Piccolo were on par with each other.


Everyone complaining in this thread about the lack of relevance of Trunks and Goten so far is going to feel extremely silly if the next Dragon Ball series has them in main character roles.
Well, current Android 17 is Blue level despite the fact that he was easily outclassed by Kami-fused Piccolo back in the Android Saga. He trained, he got stronger, that's all there is to it.

Many characters have "peaked" only for them to get stronger and stronger once the plot requires it. For example, Vegeta has "peaked" and become stagnant in two occasions (first time was the 5 years gap between Cell and Boo Saga, second was the 5 year gap between Boo Saga and Battle of the Gods).

It isn't THAT hard to believe that Roshi (who is a 100% human therefore his limit should be the same as the one of Krillin, Tien and Yamcha) could become stronger than what he currently is.

Also, wasn't it established in Super than both Base Vegeta and Base Goku are now stronger than SJJ3 Gotenks? The kid's power has really fallen once they stopped training. I think that both Trunks and Goten had the potential of being Super's version of Cell Games Gohan but Toriyama just doesn't care about them.
For starters Goten and Trunks haven’t stopped training. They’re as strong as they are because they were fighting each other all these years. Not once have I ever heard they stopped training. In fact, Goten was seen in the anime wanting to go train with Goku.

How long have you been watching dragon ball? No sane person would think Roshi has always been capable of this kind of stuff when he passed the torch to Tien, Goku etc all the way back in dragon ball. He didn’t even stand a chance against king piccolo, who would get stomped by Raditz. Who would get annihilated by saiyan saga Vegeta. Who would also get completely murdered against the Ginyu Force etc. The gap between ssb tier and where Roshi is being placed now are not comparable. At least with 17, you can use the excuse that nobody can detect his energy so how would anyone sense him?

I don’t have a reason for why ss3 gitenks got destroyed by base Vegeta. I’ve learned that toei takes too much liberty in filler episodes and it’s always controversial. This is the same series that in a filler episode in Z, Goku used ssj and kaioken at the same time. Yeah he was dead when it happened, but there clearly would’ve been some stamina issues after doing it. I promise you that they weren’t thinking about their previous work in Z when they made ssb and kaioken compatible. Point is, toei doesn’t care about consistency, so I try to take what they add in with a grain of salt.
I think regardless of whatever opinion one holds on Roshi's portrayal in Super, I feel like the fact that he has come so far because of "off-screen training" kind of undermines his arc during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai... and it undermines the fact that all of his students (Goku, Kuririn, Yamcha, and I think Tenshinhan sorta counts) surpassed him and achieved things greater than he ever did, which I believe was something Roshi was proud of during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc. At least, that's the way I see it.
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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by Exline » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:25 pm

I'm not gonna lie, the laziness behind putting Goten and Trunks on the bleachers is really dumb.
"They're kids! They shouldn't be exposed to death and fighting"
The whole point of Goten and Trunks' personalities was that Trunks was the kid who would disobey the parents and get his best friend to follow him around, getting in all sorts of mischief and trouble. That was why I enjoyed them so much in Dragon Ball Z and the movies. It was such a relatable trait that could be expanded upon. It was integrated so well in the BoG movies when Trunks took Goten to see the Bingo Prizes.


I feel like they could be pushing themselves just to be like their fathers since they idolize them so much.
-Trunks has the motivation to do so now in order to be able to protect his new baby sister. He should also be learning to develop some engineering skills like his mother. He could be providing the main cast with special capsules filled with equipment fit for their situation. (His Future Counterpart did this in the manga, providing a motorcycle that would help Mai escape from Black). This could eventually lead to him becoming the future president of the Capsule Corporation.

-I was also hoping for Goten to become the successor to the Great Saiyaman or at least Gohan's Sidekick since he used to be a fan of Gohan's costume. That would've been the perfect Superhero Parody.
If that won't work out, then maybe develop his interest in girls like Trunks' is starting to develop as well with Mai. Give that poor child some relevancy for fuck's sake.

Anyone got any good ideas for how to integrate Kid Trunks and Goten into the main storyline?

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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by Miracles » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:26 pm

They are weak. They really should be irrelevant.

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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by TheOtherDude » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:36 pm

Exline wrote:I'm not gonna lie, the laziness behind putting Goten and Trunks on the bleachers is really dumb.
"They're kids! They shouldn't be exposed to death and fighting"
The whole point of Goten and Trunks' personalities was that Trunks was the kid who would disobey the parents and get his best friend to follow him around, getting in all sorts of mischief and trouble. That was why I enjoyed them so much in Dragon Ball Z and the movies. It was such a relatable trait that could be expanded upon. It was integrated so well in the BoG movies when Trunks took Goten to see the Bingo Prizes.


I feel like they could be pushing themselves just to be like their fathers since they idolize them so much.
-Trunks has the motivation to do so now in order to be able to protect his new baby sister. He should also be learning to develop some engineering skills like his mother. He could be providing the main cast with special capsules filled with equipment fit for their situation. (His Future Counterpart did this in the manga, providing a motorcycle that would help Mai escape from Black). This could eventually lead to him becoming the future president of the Capsule Corporation.

-I was also hoping for Goten to become the successor to the Great Saiyaman or at least Gohan's Sidekick since he used to be a fan of Gohan's costume. That would've been the perfect Superhero Parody.
If that won't work out, then maybe develop his interest in girls like Trunks' is starting to develop as well with Mai. Give that poor child some relevancy for fuck's sake.

Anyone got any good ideas for how to integrate Kid Trunks and Goten into the main storyline?
Yeah. Have them along with Uub, pan, bulla and maron lead the next generation of Z. It’s common sense as far as I’m concerned. This tournamentcame across as the last hoorah for the main cast. At least with the humans.
Miracles wrote:They are weak. They really should be irrelevant.
The fact that you say something like that, proves you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by GamerSkull » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:00 pm

Miracles wrote:They are weak. They really should be irrelevant.
I don't agree with the notion that one can only be a relevant character if they're super strong. A good writer can still make weak characters competent.
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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by Miracles » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:51 pm

TheOtherDude wrote:The fact that you say something like that, proves you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
IIRC, Vegeta himself said they need to learn to fight on their own during recruitment for the TOP.
Trunks and Goten were nothings in Buu arc. Face time was minute and are only defined by another character in Gotenks.
GamerSkull wrote:I don't agree with the notion that one can only be a relevant character if they're super strong. A good writer can still make weak characters competent.
They were pretty much nonexistent even in the Buu arc. The theme just continues. Gotenks clearly just overshadows them as a character and with his power.

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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by GamerSkull » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:55 pm

Miracles wrote:
GamerSkull wrote:I don't agree with the notion that one can only be a relevant character if they're super strong. A good writer can still make weak characters competent.
They were pretty much nonexistent even in the Buu arc. The theme just continues. Gotenks clearly just overshadows them as a character and with his power.
That's not the point I was making though.

And even if the theme continues here... it's not necessarily something that was a positive of original Z either. It's a flaw there too.
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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by Miracles » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:13 pm

GamerSkull wrote:
Miracles wrote:
GamerSkull wrote:I don't agree with the notion that one can only be a relevant character if they're super strong. A good writer can still make weak characters competent.
They were pretty much nonexistent even in the Buu arc. The theme just continues. Gotenks clearly just overshadows them as a character and with his power.
That's not the point I was making though.

And even if the theme continues here... it's not necessarily something that was a positive of original Z either. It's a flaw there too.
It's not. DBZ is about grown men. Goten and Trunk were wisely used with fusion. Other than that they can not compete.
You want little kiddy teens thinking they could handle adult business? That's what Naruto and one piece are for.
Toriyama was wise not trying to force them in the story as if they could make a difference when they couldn't.

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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by GamerSkull » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:23 pm

Miracles wrote:
GamerSkull wrote:
Miracles wrote:


They were pretty much nonexistent even in the Buu arc. The theme just continues. Gotenks clearly just overshadows them as a character and with his power.
That's not the point I was making though.

And even if the theme continues here... it's not necessarily something that was a positive of original Z either. It's a flaw there too.
It's not. DBZ is about grown men. Goten and Trunk were wisely used with fusion. Other than that they can not compete.
You want little kiddy teens thinking they could handle adult business? That's what Naruto and one piece are for.
Toriyama was wise not trying to force them in the story as if they could make a difference when they couldn't.
They could have been developed into competent characters. What I mean by "competent character" is a well-written character.

And your argument about kiddy-teens and adult business falls apart with Gohan since he was only around 9 or 10 during the Cell arc. Not to mention Gohan's involvement in the Freeza arc.

Also, my point is that you can still make a good well-developed character even if they aren't as strong as other characters. A character's worth shouldn't just come from how strong they are.
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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by Shaqazooloo » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:36 am

TheOtherDude wrote:
Shaqazooloo wrote:Not really. Aren't they pretty much gag characters in Z? The only thing changed from Z to Super imo is now they're far weaker than max power Roshi...
I really can’t believe there are people out here that actually believe this. Roshi is in no way comparable to Trunks or Goten.
Li'l Lemmy wrote: I am sure you meant to say "far stronger". O.o;
Should've used :lol: instead of ... It was mostly intended as a joke. I just love the image of Master Roshi no selling SS3 Gotenks, it's hilarious.

Also power scaling in Super is nonsense anyway, I kind of wouldn't be surprised if in a 1v1 against Goten or Trunks, Master Roshi wins. Though, that would probably be more because of Roshi's experience and skill than power.
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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by Mac » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:05 am

Meh, they were never particularly interesting characters to begin with, Gotenks has gotten rather dull as well.

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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by Akyon » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:28 am

GamerSkull wrote:
Miracles wrote:They are weak. They really should be irrelevant.
I don't agree with the notion that one can only be a relevant character if they're super strong. A good writer can still make weak characters competent.
Agreed. Bulma and Mr. Satan are good examples of weak characters being relevant to the plot. Krillin and Gohan were weaker than all their foes in the Namekian arc and yet were competent and relevant to the plot.
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Re: It blows my mind how irrelevant Trunks/Goten were for all 131 Super episodes

Post by HeroR » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:30 am

Raphael_Z wrote:
TheOtherDude wrote:
GamerSkull wrote:
I still find it weird that Roshi is depicted the way he is in Super when he should have reached his peak around the Piccolo Daimao arc in terms of power.
Exactly. Roshi would’ve gotten demolished by Raditz, but here he is. Toei sprinkled a little bit of “he was training this entire time” and now everyone defends it like it’s perfectly fine and that nothing is odd about it. If you ignored the rest of dragon ball and only watched super, you’d think Roshi and Piccolo were on par with each other.


Everyone complaining in this thread about the lack of relevance of Trunks and Goten so far is going to feel extremely silly if the next Dragon Ball series has them in main character roles.
Well, current Android 17 is Blue level despite the fact that he was easily outclassed by Kami-fused Piccolo back in the Android Saga. He trained, he got stronger, that's all there is to it.

Many characters have "peaked" only for them to get stronger and stronger once the plot requires it. For example, Vegeta has "peaked" and become stagnant in two occasions (first time was the 5 years gap between Cell and Boo Saga, second was the 5 year gap between Boo Saga and Battle of the Gods).

It isn't THAT hard to believe that Roshi (who is a 100% human therefore his limit should be the same as the one of Krillin, Tien and Yamcha) could become stronger than what he currently is.

Also, wasn't it established in Super than both Base Vegeta and Base Goku are now stronger than SJJ3 Gotenks? The kid's power has really fallen once they stopped training. I think that both Trunks and Goten had the potential of being Super's version of Cell Games Gohan but Toriyama just doesn't care about them.

Except that was never said. The only person who ever said to have gotten weaker from lack of training are Gohan and Krillin.
GamerSkull wrote:
I think regardless of whatever opinion one holds on Roshi's portrayal in Super, I feel like the fact that he has come so far because of "off-screen training" kind of undermines his arc during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai... and it undermines the fact that all of his students (Goku, Kuririn, Yamcha, and I think Tenshinhan sorta counts) surpassed him and achieved things greater than he ever did, which I believe was something Roshi was proud of during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc. At least, that's the way I see it.
It really doesn't if you look at 105. As Roshi admitted, he thought he did peak until he saw his students reached greater heights than he could ever imagine and taught him that there were still heights that he could reached too.
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