Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

[Shuby]

Do you guys think bad outweighs the good by a good margin in this arc and why? I do think so:

- Powerscalling just goes completely out the window
- No powerups are explained
- Everyone masters forms and technique in minutes
- Everyone recovers back to full strength in seconds
- Everyone can heal each other. Making senzubeans irrelevant
- Krillin gets so much build up only to be thrown out after 3 episodes into the tournement
- Piccolo and Gohan get so much hyped up only to disappoint in the end
- Tenshinhan gets absolutely trashed on and did not even get a good build up or an episode of his own.
- Frieza despite looking so interesting in the start ends up being a jobber
- Roshi is kicking ass (and I loved that mind you) but we get zero explanation on how and WHEN he started training again
- Goku has to be the one to do everything despite him becoming less and less interesting
- Too much focus on Goku
- Too much focus on u7, they literally are owning everyone
-how is 17 so strong?
- Vegeta using his final annilhation but somehow stll can turn Blue next second and him not dying makes no sense
- And it made no sense that Vegeta was getting bodied by Toppo, then with his little pep talk was able to completely overpower Toppo. And Toppo kept spamming hakai even though that...y'know...KILLS PEOPLE.
-Jiren's backstory was very hollow and didn't add anything to his non-existent character, he's just Alien Sasuke! And worse, it didn't explain how Jiren got as unbelievably strong as he is. The whole execution of that was awful.
-There was so much potential with the 12 universes, the Gods, this tournament and Goku and Vegeta themselves except Super never really capitalized on it rushing from one thing to another
-I lost count how many times Goku claimed he lost stamina and then transforms into SSB with ease the next scene.
-If 17 blew himself up without a bomb how come 16 couldn't do that against Cell they have the same type of artificial ki
-ToP characters that were hyped up, only to be thrown out in the most embarrassing ways possible.

the Events that lead up to this Arc " doesn't add-up " and doesn't help either. Just another terribly constructed Arc with inconsistent Character Models, bad Fighting-Animations and inconsistent power-levels. The fanservice and pandering is fucking up the little logic left in the show.

[Sin]

Most of your reasons for bad are inconsistencies, which Super is full of. That's likely peoples main issues with it, and we are in an age of television and anime where we aren't really used to this, even modern children s cartoons have consistency now.

For me it came to a point where I just pushed through looking at the faults and just enjoy it for what it is, there are some genuinely great things to come from Super such as the new characters, expanded universe lore, its attempts to give classic characters some relevance, and a lot of the interactions between characters have actually been fun to watch.

Maybe I just came in with lower expectations than others, but I never really expected massive consistency, at least in the anime.

[GodVegetto91]

The writing of Super is objectively bad. That’s a fact that cannot be argued against. And everyone knows it and can see it. It has been since the beginning and will continue on as long as Toei is in charge. Does this mean the bad will outweigh the good? Well, that is subjective ofcourse. If you ask me, i still ENJOY watching Super. And will never stop watching it despite it’s bad writing (which i self evidently admit, so i’m FAR from being a mindless apologist). That said, while Super has many many BAD things, it also has many GOOD things. And these definitely outweigh the negative ones for me, otherwise i would stop watching it, and i don’t obviously. These GOOD things of Super is what keeps me interested, while the bad things? Well, i’ll simply ignore them and pretend they don’t exist. (It helps a lot).

Characters
Art
Action
Story - world building, God hierarchy, Saiyan transformations, Goku Black, music! And ofcourse the best of them all, Ultra Instinct! It’s these things that will keep me interested in the show until the day i die! And i will never lose interest because of the bad things.

[Kanious]

For me not. There are even things you cited that i'm glad that it happened, like the Gohan and Piccolo thing [the hype was only in the mind of their fans, as they were never hyped in the series]. and #17 being so strong;

There are some things that i dislike, like Vegeta's new transformation being wasted, Toppo being wasted, Goku getting asspulls that appear to top Gohan asspuls in Z [that is what makes me HATE Z's Gohan], Tien being useless, and U7 eliminating most of the characters in ToP...

but there are far more things that outweights the bad for me, at least, like I said before: consistency in Gohan's power and character, #17 being useful, introduction of characters like Caulifla, Kale, and many others that had a good deal of development and screen time, and many other things too.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The writing of Super is objectively bad. That’s a fact that cannot be argued against. And everyone knows it and can see it. It has been since the beginning and will continue on as long as Toei is in charge. Does this mean the bad will outweigh the good? Well, that is subjective ofcourse. If you ask me, i still ENJOY watching Super. And will never stop watching it despite it’s bad writing (which i self evidently admit, so i’m FAR from being a mindless apologist). That said, while Super has many many BAD things, it also has many GOOD things. And these definitely outweigh the negative ones for me, otherwise i would stop watching it, and i don’t obviously. These GOOD things of Super is what keeps me interested, while the bad things? Well, i’ll simply ignore them and pretend they don’t exist. (It helps a lot).

Characters
Art
Action
Story - world building, God hierarchy, Saiyan transformations, Goku Black, music! And ofcourse the best of them all, Ultra Instinct! It’s these things that will keep me interested in the show until the day i die! And i will never lose interest because of the bad things.

No it is not. "DBS is 131 episodes long" that is something that is an objective fact. "DBS has bad writing" is not an objective fact by any definition, something that requires an opinion is always subjective, and DBS' writing is exactly that.

[sintzu]

Not just this arc but Super as a whole is a very mixed product but looking back at it compared to the original, I'd say the bad slightly outweighs the good.

I do wish these topics would be put on hold until it ends cause I think the ending is going to be a major factor in where fans stand with Super so I'll wait till then to go into full details about what I like and dislike.

[GodVegetto91]

The writing of Super is objectively bad. That’s a fact that cannot be argued against. And everyone knows it and can see it. It has been since the beginning and will continue on as long as Toei is in charge. Does this mean the bad will outweigh the good? Well, that is subjective ofcourse. If you ask me, i still ENJOY watching Super. And will never stop watching it despite it’s bad writing (which i self evidently admit, so i’m FAR from being a mindless apologist). That said, while Super has many many BAD things, it also has many GOOD things. And these definitely outweigh the negative ones for me, otherwise i would stop watching it, and i don’t obviously. These GOOD things of Super is what keeps me interested, while the bad things? Well, i’ll simply ignore them and pretend they don’t exist. (It helps a lot).

Characters
Art
Action
Story - world building, God hierarchy, Saiyan transformations, Goku Black, music! And ofcourse the best of them all, Ultra Instinct! It’s these things that will keep me interested in the show until the day i die! And i will never lose interest because of the bad things.

No it is not. "DBS is 131 episodes long" that is something that is an objective fact. "DBS has bad writing" is not an objective fact by any definition, something that requires an opinion is always subjective, and DBS' writing is exactly that.

Yes it is. You honestly can’t just sit back and claim that Super’s writing is superb and flawless. That’s objectively not true and anyone can see it. It’s common knowledge and out there in the open for everyone to see - it’s many flaws and inconsistencies, that’s what they objectively are. Super’s writing is trash. Horse shit. But that doesn’t mean it can bring a lot of good, cool and interesting stuff to the table.

[supersaiyanZero]

The writing of Super is objectively bad. That’s a fact that cannot be argued against. And everyone knows it and can see it. It has been since the beginning and will continue on as long as Toei is in charge. Does this mean the bad will outweigh the good? Well, that is subjective ofcourse. If you ask me, i still ENJOY watching Super. And will never stop watching it despite it’s bad writing (which i self evidently admit, so i’m FAR from being a mindless apologist). That said, while Super has many many BAD things, it also has many GOOD things. And these definitely outweigh the negative ones for me, otherwise i would stop watching it, and i don’t obviously. These GOOD things of Super is what keeps me interested, while the bad things? Well, i’ll simply ignore them and pretend they don’t exist. (It helps a lot).

Characters
Art
Action
Story - world building, God hierarchy, Saiyan transformations, Goku Black, music! And ofcourse the best of them all, Ultra Instinct! It’s these things that will keep me interested in the show until the day i die! And i will never lose interest because of the bad things.

No it is not. "DBS is 131 episodes long" that is something that is an objective fact. "DBS has bad writing" is not an objective fact by any definition, something that requires an opinion is always subjective, and DBS' writing is exactly that.

The whole "Well, that's just like, your subjective opinion, man!" that Super apologists grab onto only goes so far. While I agree there is a certain amount of subjectivity when viewing creative works, there is also a very healthy amount of objectivity when they are opened up to criticism. You learn this in any writing 101 class..there are rules, structure, and fundamental ways to go about certain things in creating a story that Super seems to totally disregard. Don't get me wrong, you are always welcome to break the rules (as in any art medium), but that implies that you understand and respect those rules in the first place. Super has consistently hit the checkmarked boxes of the simplest, basic anime tropes which itself alone isn't worst thing in the world but they were executed so painfully bad that it makes your head hurt, to the point of being not enjoyable. It has suffered from a disconnection amongst Toriyama, the writers, the directors, etc. and in ANY situation that can only hurt instead of help your cause. Super is painfully bad writing wise, and all you have to do is watch similar shows that have had the same themes and tropes to realize the difference. It's simply not an example of good storytelling by any means, and nowhere near the enjoyable experience it's predecessors have given us.

Instead of constantly looking for ways to apologize for Super's mediocrity, why can't fans look for ways to voice their opinion in a way that lets Toei know that an incredibly rushed schedule, along with a lack of communication among the staff and no clear vision or direction for the characters is not something the fans want more of?

[FrostByte]

The good EASILY outweighs the bad for me.DBS has been a great experience and I'm glad this show exists.

[VegettoEX]

You honestly can’t just sit back and claim that Super’s writing is superb and flawless.

This is the other end of the spectrum that I believe people are getting a bit tired of.

Things are not black and white. There is no "entirely good" or "entirely flawless" versus "entirely bad" and "entirely without merit". It's a spectrum. It's a personal balance and weighing of different aspects.

This hyperbolic, sweeping nonsense needs to stop. Someone being fed up with reading endless "stop defending this objectively bad show" does not then inherently mean they are a mindless drone whose sole mission in life is to defend its honor; in reality, they hold nuanced viewpoints just like you and everyone else.

I'm bored out of my mind watching this show each week, but I'm equally sick and tired of reading countless "objectively bad" posts and wish that people would strive for something more in their critiques. I have zero desire to engage with someone parroting out that trite criticism, and to some degree I don't blame anyone else for getting confrontational over how absurd it's getting.

[Diccolo-420]

Agreed wholeheartedly, but clearly it won't matter how bad it gets since all Toei cares about is sales and ratings and DBS has them both, this show is meant to just sell toys and brand.\

Like someone said previously, as long as Toei runs the franchise it will never get over bad writing.

[precita]

For me not. There are even things you cited that i'm glad that it happened, like the Gohan and Piccolo thing [the hype was only in the mind of their fans, as they were never hyped in the series]. and #17 being so strong;

There are some things that i dislike, like Vegeta's new transformation being wasted, Toppo being wasted, Goku getting asspulls that appear to top Gohan asspuls in Z [that is what makes me HATE Z's Gohan], Tien being useless, and U7 eliminating most of the characters in ToP...
o.

I don't think Vegeta's new form was wasted, he literally defeated Toppo with it, plus we know he'll use it in the next series. And Gohan's strength was evident from the start ever since he headbutted Radditz, from then on we were constantly reminded of Gohan's hidden powers. I wouldn't consider that poor writing, not to what Super does.

Toriyama knew what he was doing.

[buutenks]

I never saw much bad in Super, mostly average stuff with epic stuff. Considering the only animes i actually watch are slice of life n mystery/horror/ghost animes, no fighting anime type attracts me, i cant stand them, the annoy the hell out of me, apart from DB n YYH. So with that in mind, i think Super is awesome.

[Kinokima]

I never saw much bad in Super, mostly average stuff with epic stuff. Considering the only animes i actually watch are slice of life n mystery/horror/ghost animes, no fighting anime type attracts me, i cant stand them, the annoy the hell out of me, apart from DB n YYH. So with that in mind, i think Super is awesome.

I am the same as you. Although I started off with Shounen fighting series when I first got into anime (many moons ago lol) I have little interest in them these days (now I get most of my Shounen tropes from sports series)

What I love about Super is it was a mixture of action & slice of life. And the main characters are adults with families. While I think some Shounen that came after DB and were influenced by it improved on its formula in many ways I also think there are elements of DB that make it unique from other Shounen.


Do I think Super is a flawless Masterpiece, not at all. But in the end for me the good certainly outweighs the bad. Otherwise I would have stopped watching a long time ago. I don’t watch shows I think are “objectively” bad.

[Bullza]

Those are terrible negatives.

"Why is Android 17 so strong?"

That's a negative? It's a bad thing because a character is written with a certain level of strength? Most complaints I ever see for the show always seem to come down to power levels.

[buutenks]

Those are terrible negatives.

"Why is Android 17 so strong?"

That's a negative? It's a bad thing because a character is written with a certain level of strength? Most complaints I ever see for the show always seem to come down to power levels.

Well, they proly mean why is 17 suddenly so strong with no explanation. What Super lacks is explaining why most characters were able to get to where they are and if they do, it is basically as ridiculous as Saitama becoming god like by doing regular training every day. Doesnt bother me, but i can see why it would piss some people off.

I am the same as you. Although I started off with Shounen fighting series when I first got into anime (many moons ago lol) I have little interest in them these days (now I get most of my Shounen tropes from sports series)

What I love about Super is it was a mixture of action & slice of life. And the main characters are adults with families. While I think some Shounen that came after DB and were influenced by it improved on its formula in many ways I also think there are elements of DB that make it unique from other Shounen.


Do I think Super is a flawless Masterpiece, not at all. But in the end for me the good certainly outweighs the bad. Otherwise I would have stopped watching a long time ago. I don’t watch shows I think are “objectively” bad.

I always liked Goku's gives no shits attitude and does whatever he wants. I think most modern action anime have to much emotion in them. I loved how Goku says in ep 118 that he prefers guts over that love crap.

[Halcy]

While there is things about super that are good, I will say there is a lot of flaws. I still have issues with super having to take place in the buu arc. The fact is the show never had tension. And looking at supers ideas it makes more sense to take place after gt with god level power scaling, and multiverse. The first 28 episodes did not need to be there, and well the universe 6 arc is ok its not amazing. You get to future trunks arc and I did like black as a villain but from trunks random power ups to a mess of timelines and that lack luster ending are just a few problems, but my main issue is the pilaf gang because I do not like them as fan service. There not explained, and no one recognizes them even future mai. But then we get to the current arc and to be honest I get the 5 minute joke about namek but this arc is not even funny for how long less the 1 day and 45 min is. Not only does the power ups seem forced and rushed, you look at how many downs universe 7 got and its stupid, most of this arc the characters introduced seem like filler which is ashame. How ever the power ups/ pulling energy out the butt and power scaling cause so much issue. UI seems rushed and forced same with vegitas transformation, but what gets me is super did not fix power scaling it made it worse. Lead alone Jiren back story (i mean batman) does not explain beyond god strength, As well as I dont feel like awesome 17 damaged Jiren. I am like when did 17 get the equivalent of god ki strength. And The arc begins with one of the worst lines I have heard in the entire series, 28 planets with mortal life. Really then why is jaco and the space king a thing, how does freeza still has an army with different aliens. Super just makes my head hurt. Yes there are ideas and fights that are cool but overall once its over, and I rewatch the series again it will be 10 years of peace.

[Basaku]

I would say the good outweights the bad. Not by a huge margin, perhaps just minimally, but still. Most of your issues fall into same 2 categories - asspull power jumps and disappointing build-up and pay offs for multiple characters. However, the lore expansion and world building, the magnitude of very memorable and perfectly fitting new characters introduced in Super as well as many good story concepts (even if not executed well enough) manage to tip the scale on the favourable side IMO.

In comparsion, I would say GT's bad outweights the good. Super does less major mistakes and has more genuinely good stuff. It's still far cry from DB's peak (Piccolo-Saiyan-Freeza-Cell streak) but it's a better offering than GT.

Technical production qualities aside of course. We all know Super looked like shit for at least a third of its run.

[sintzu]

Most complaints I ever see for the show always seem to come down to power levels.

Rightfully so. people aren't asking for accurate numbers but just very basic consistency in regards to where characters stand compared to each other. We've got characters who were laft in the dust way back in DB (the original) now out of nowhere going up against the universe's top fighters. We've got the Saiyans who'd take years of training just to get slightly stronger (slightly compared to what they're doing now) now make these huge jumps overnight.

[Bullza]

Rightfully so. people aren't asking for accurate numbers but just very basic consistency in regards to where characters stand compared to each other. We've got characters who were laft in the dust way back in DB (the original) now out of nowhere going up against the universe's top fighters.

Which characters from the original Dragon Ball re going up against the universes top fighters? Are they actually winning? Or are they simply fighting them as Krillin fought Frieza or Cell?

We've got the Saiyans who'd take years of training just to get slightly stronger (slightly compared to what they're doing now) now make these huge jumps overnight.

They would make huge jumps back then too. Didn't Goku go from 90,000 to 3 million just from recovering in a machine for a short while? Who is having these huge jumps over night? And why is that a problem? Power levels don't follow some mathematical formula, they just improve to the extent that it required for the plot.

Goku used the Kaioken and it boosted him 4 fold. Goku went Super Saiyan and it boosted him 50 fold. Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 and it boosted him 2 fold. Goku went Super Saiyan God and it boosted him probably hundreds of fold. Goku used the Kaioken technique again and it boosted him 10 fold.

It's just as much as it needs to be and that's it.