Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by dragonball0900 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:07 am

Don't forget that the zenkai boost only got Goku like more than 30 times stronger or so. Not that much of a big boost in comparison to characters like Android 17, who would get like hundreds of times stronger just by "simple training".

The problem I have with Android 17's power up is how ridiculous it is. I mean, put him stronger than SSJ3, I'm fine with that, at least that's what the manga shows for now (though maybe things will change I don't know). But an android reaching god level just by "training" is nonsensical. The worst thing of all is that I don't remember there was an explanation to his power up. Frieza's power up for example in four months, at least that had an explanation, he was already a strong being from a strong race who didn't need to train at all, his race was different, specially since they are aliens. With Android 17 there is no such thing stated in the series so far. Reaching at least SSJ3 level like in the manga seems fine. I do agree with that. After all, I'm not bothered if Android 17 did recieve a big power up, but reaching to a god level and having better feats than even Hit, Golden Frieza or SSJB Goku with Kaioken it's the weirdest thing I have seen from Super so far. Not only that, it contradicts other arcs as well. If Android 17 was so powerful why didn't he help against Buu? Why didn't he survive Super Buu's attack when he killed the earthlings? (Yeah he didn't survive, according to a guidebook only Tien, Chiaotzu and Mr Satan survived) And in the BoG arc, it was said that the only one who had reached the level of gods on earth so far is Goku, at least that's what is supposed to be in the story, and now we have an android reaching that level easily in a course of another few years? He could've fought Beerus better than Goku if that was the case! Characters like Piccolo who always kept up with his training, who was way stronger than Android 17 at the Cell Games arc, and now is nothing in comparison to 17? The oracle fish said Goku and Vegeta would be Beerus' best rivals, yet at this rate, if he continued training, it would seem as Android 17 will be one too! It just doesn't make sense! I guess they just did this for putting him in the story plot, which is what Super does all the time. That's why I don't really watch Super that much. Then again, this is Toei's doing. I wonder if Toriyama did intend for Android 17 to be that insanely strong...

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:11 am

Super isn't over yet, so it would be better to rather wait until that before we judge the product as a whole.

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by Hawk9211 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:54 am

Bullza wrote:Those are terrible negatives.

"Why is Android 17 so strong?"

That's a negative? It's a bad thing because a character is written with a certain level of strength? Most complaints I ever see for the show always seem to come down to power levels.
It’s not just about power scaling
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.

If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.

An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Read the bolded.
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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by Kuwabara » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:42 am

There are two very bad arcs (Battle of Gods and Resurrection F), one okay arc (Universe 6), one pretty good arc (Tournament of Power), and a stellar arc (Future Trunks/Goku Black). I wouldn't say the bad outweighs the good in the slightest.
This is the episode of when Gokuh enrages himself after Freezer talk shit about Kuririn

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by Bullza » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:00 am

Hawk9211 wrote:Read the bolded.
But...as that does say, that is what happens anyway and is what has always happened and so nobody is fooled.

Ever since the beginning of the series, characters have grown at an inconsistent rate to the where the story requires them to be. They'll get strong enough to just about beat the one form of a character but then not strong enough to beat him when he transforms.

There aren't rules. If a character is intended to be of a certain level then they will be. Android 17 was made to be strong enough that bringing him back into the story wasn't a complete waste of time but wasn't strong enough that he'd outlast Goku.

Why did Android 17 get so strong? I don't know, why did Goku go from 90,000 to 3 million with his zenkai boosts but Vegeta only went from 18,000 to 24,000 and then 24,000 to 30,000 even though he's also a Saiyan and he was beat to shit far worse than Goku was?

Because the plot called for Goku to magically get 33 times stronger so he could fight with Frieza after making his heroic return.

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:13 am

Super's had a rocky road as far as general reception goes, I feel. It started bad, became mixed-to-positive when the U6 arc rolled around, VERY positive throughout the Future Trunks arc up until the ending, then kind of wavered for a bit, peaking high during the Tournament of Power and the one-hour special in particular, before unfortunately falling into a tailspin during the final portion of the arc.

That's just my view of the overall response, there's always outliers who think it's either fantastic or awful overall. Even then, there are nuances. I fall very much on the side of the good of Super outweighing the bad and I'll likely miss it once it's over, but that doesn't mean I can't agree that the movie retellings were a bad move or that the Tournament of Power became a bloated mess the longer it dragged on. You just takes the rough with the smooth.

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:33 am

I greatly enjoy Dragon Ball, Z and GT despite its bullshit and major writing fumbles scattered across the story and Super is no different.

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by lancerman » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:59 am

Shuby wrote:Do you guys think bad outweighs the good by a good margin in this arc and why? I do think so:

- Powerscalling just goes completely out the window Deliberately done so that long discarded and wasted characters could be made useful again
- No powerups are explained SSG, SSGSS, UI, and Golden Freeza are explained. SSJB2 is pretty easy to infer as well. Literally Trunks is power up is the only one I can think of
- Everyone masters forms and technique in minutes Goku lost SSJG mid battle, SSJB was implied to have been achieved long before the Freeza debut, Goku has been UI twice without mastering it, Freeza didn't master Golden the first time around. SSJB2 was not around long enough to evaluate.
- Everyone recovers back to full strength in seconds
- Everyone can heal each other. Making senzubeans irrelevant plot point established in the Freeza arc
- Krillin gets so much build up only to be thrown out after 3 episodes into the tournament irrelevant, Kuriren got a strong showcase in the build to the arc, some characters were going to have to go early, Kuriren accomplished things and saw character growth, he was never going to factor into the end game.
- Piccolo and Gohan get so much hyped up only to disappoint in the end They aren't the main characters. They played a strong role. Again some characters were going to go early and whoever it was you were going to say "they dissapointed after build up". Would you have preferred they didn't get build up and showcase at all and just be fodder?
- Tenshinhan gets absolutely trashed on and did not even get a good build up or an episode of his own. See above
- Frieza despite looking so interesting in the start ends up being a jobber Freeza is one of the final 3 competitors, he eliminated important characters, his story isn't done, and the only characters who had an advantage on him were a god of destruction and a character so OP that everyone has been getting killed vs him.
- Roshi is kicking ass (and I loved that mind you) but we get zero explanation on how and WHEN he started training again he's Roshi, he can train whenever.
- Goku has to be the one to do everything despite him becoming less and less interesting
- Too much focus on Goku For both points, it's Goku's show. Goku turned into an ape and beat Pilaf, he beat the RR army, he beat King Piccolo, Piccolo Jr, he was the only match for Vegeta, he beat Freeza, and he beat Boo. In the entire original manga, Cell was the only character Goku didn't ultimately prevail against. In GT Goku beat virtually every villain. In Super Goku lost to Beerus, technically beat Freeza after the fight was over and he was just stealing Vegeta's win, lost to Hit, Trunks beat Zamasu. This is literally the only arc in the show where Goku might get a definitive win.
- Too much focus on u7, they literally are owning everyone The series is about U7. They are the protagonists
-how is 17 so strong? He trained off screen.
- Vegeta using his final annilhation but somehow stll can turn Blue next second and him not dying makes no sense Vegeta is significantly stronger than in Z. His final annihilation doesn't take up as much energy.
- And it made no sense that Vegeta was getting bodied by Toppo, then with his little pep talk was able to completely overpower Toppo. And Toppo kept spamming hakai even though that...y'know...KILLS PEOPLE. Goku did virtually the same thing vs Freeza.
-Jiren's backstory was very hollow and didn't add anything to his non-existent character, he's just Alien Sasuke! And worse, it didn't explain how Jiren got as unbelievably strong as he is. The whole execution of that was awful. He TRAINED. Do you need to know why Freeza was as strong as he was, or King Piccolo, or Boo, or anybody? Do you really need it all spoonfed to you
-There was so much potential with the 12 universes, the Gods, this tournament and Goku and Vegeta themselves except Super never really capitalized on it rushing from one thing to another In your opinion.
-I lost count how many times Goku claimed he lost stamina and then transforms into SSB with ease the next scene. It was like 3.
-If 17 blew himself up without a bomb how come 16 couldn't do that against Cell they have the same type of artificial ki 17 is part human he can use human ki.
-ToP characters that were hyped up, only to be thrown out in the most embarrassing ways possible. Not every character can have an epic performance and it would cheapen the really strong characters if they did.

the Events that lead up to this Arc " doesn't add-up " and doesn't help either. Just another terribly constructed Arc with inconsistent Character Models, bad Fighting-Animations and inconsistent power-levels. The fanservice and pandering is fucking up the little logic left in the show.

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by lancerman » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:02 am

dragonball0900 wrote:Don't forget that the zenkai boost only got Goku like more than 30 times stronger or so. Not that much of a big boost in comparison to characters like Android 17, who would get like hundreds of times stronger just by "simple training".
Goku went from SSJ to SSJ2 and SSJ3 off screen in 7 years. Then in the time since made it to SSJB. Android 17 was roughly the same strength as Goku during that time period.

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by Hawk9211 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:39 am

Bullza wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:Read the bolded.
But...as that does say, that is what happens anyway and is what has always happened and so nobody is fooled.

Ever since the beginning of the series, characters have grown at an inconsistent rate to the where the story requires them to be. They'll get strong enough to just about beat the one form of a character but then not strong enough to beat him when he transforms.

There aren't rules. If a character is intended to be of a certain level then they will be. Android 17 was made to be strong enough that bringing him back into the story wasn't a complete waste of time but wasn't strong enough that he'd outlast Goku.

Why did Android 17 get so strong? I don't know, why did Goku go from 90,000 to 3 million with his zenkai boosts but Vegeta only went from 18,000 to 24,000 and then 24,000 to 30,000 even though he's also a Saiyan and he was beat to shit far worse than Goku was?

Because the plot called for Goku to magically get 33 times stronger so he could fight with Frieza after making his heroic return.
Well,dragon ball has a lot of bullshit which increases even more in last two arcs.But,there was quite a lot of effort to make events sensible.Take training they went from training by carrying milk to training in gravity chambers,other world,rosat.Yes,a lot of these might be inconsistent but they are done by different plot devices in order to make it believable.How do you expect people to react if vegeta trained by carrying milk like in early dragon ball and became ssj2 in buu saga?
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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:55 am

Hawk9211 wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:Read the bolded.
But...as that does say, that is what happens anyway and is what has always happened and so nobody is fooled.

Ever since the beginning of the series, characters have grown at an inconsistent rate to the where the story requires them to be. They'll get strong enough to just about beat the one form of a character but then not strong enough to beat him when he transforms.

There aren't rules. If a character is intended to be of a certain level then they will be. Android 17 was made to be strong enough that bringing him back into the story wasn't a complete waste of time but wasn't strong enough that he'd outlast Goku.

Why did Android 17 get so strong? I don't know, why did Goku go from 90,000 to 3 million with his zenkai boosts but Vegeta only went from 18,000 to 24,000 and then 24,000 to 30,000 even though he's also a Saiyan and he was beat to shit far worse than Goku was?

Because the plot called for Goku to magically get 33 times stronger so he could fight with Frieza after making his heroic return.
Well,dragon ball has a lot of bullshit which increases even more in last two arcs.But,there was quite a lot of effort to make events sensible.Take training they went from training by carrying milk to training in gravity chambers,other world,rosat.Yes,a lot of these might be inconsistent but they are done by different plot devices in order to make it believable.How do you expect people to react if vegeta trained by carrying milk like in early dragon ball and became ssj2 in buu saga?
Well, thats been a theme even in Z, or would you like to explain to me how everyones got stronger than Raditz in the space of a year by doing the same training that Goku did for 3 years, or how Piccolo grew so much stronger in that time?
Everything past the original Dragonball didn't really care to explain how characters got so much stronger, espicially in the latter parts of the series. The idea the characters are this strong because the author said so has been a thing for a very good while now and I would say it wasn't really that much more sensible back then either.

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by Hawk9211 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:15 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:
Bullza wrote:
But...as that does say, that is what happens anyway and is what has always happened and so nobody is fooled.

Ever since the beginning of the series, characters have grown at an inconsistent rate to the where the story requires them to be. They'll get strong enough to just about beat the one form of a character but then not strong enough to beat him when he transforms.

There aren't rules. If a character is intended to be of a certain level then they will be. Android 17 was made to be strong enough that bringing him back into the story wasn't a complete waste of time but wasn't strong enough that he'd outlast Goku.

Why did Android 17 get so strong? I don't know, why did Goku go from 90,000 to 3 million with his zenkai boosts but Vegeta only went from 18,000 to 24,000 and then 24,000 to 30,000 even though he's also a Saiyan and he was beat to shit far worse than Goku was?

Because the plot called for Goku to magically get 33 times stronger so he could fight with Frieza after making his heroic return.
Well,dragon ball has a lot of bullshit which increases even more in last two arcs.But,there was quite a lot of effort to make events sensible.Take training they went from training by carrying milk to training in gravity chambers,other world,rosat.Yes,a lot of these might be inconsistent but they are done by different plot devices in order to make it believable.How do you expect people to react if vegeta trained by carrying milk like in early dragon ball and became ssj2 in buu saga?
Well, thats been a theme even in Z, or would you like to explain to me how everyones got stronger than Raditz in the space of a year by doing the same training that Goku did for 3 years, or how Piccolo grew so much stronger in that time?
Everything past the original Dragonball didn't really care to explain how characters got so much stronger, espicially in the latter parts of the series. The idea the characters are this strong because the author said so has been a thing for a very good while now and I would say it wasn't really that much more sensible back then either.
Stronger partners for both.Though I agree with the notion,that dB had a lot of bullshit.But,does one bad thing justify another one?Super operates on the same logic except that it magnifies z’s problems and that’s one of the reasons that people hate super asspulls even more.
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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:23 am

Hawk9211 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote: Well,dragon ball has a lot of bullshit which increases even more in last two arcs.But,there was quite a lot of effort to make events sensible.Take training they went from training by carrying milk to training in gravity chambers,other world,rosat.Yes,a lot of these might be inconsistent but they are done by different plot devices in order to make it believable.How do you expect people to react if vegeta trained by carrying milk like in early dragon ball and became ssj2 in buu saga?
Well, thats been a theme even in Z, or would you like to explain to me how everyones got stronger than Raditz in the space of a year by doing the same training that Goku did for 3 years, or how Piccolo grew so much stronger in that time?
Everything past the original Dragonball didn't really care to explain how characters got so much stronger, espicially in the latter parts of the series. The idea the characters are this strong because the author said so has been a thing for a very good while now and I would say it wasn't really that much more sensible back then either.
Stronger partners for both.Though I agree with the notion,that dB had a lot of bullshit.But,does one bad thing justify another one?Super operates on the same logic except that it magnifies z’s problems and that’s one of the reasons that people hate super asspulls even more.
The point I'm trying to make is that Dragonball, espicially past the original run, was never a series particularly established rules around that sort of thing about how much people can grow in space of time, and since those rules were never really set in stone to begin with, I don't think there's any particular problem with at least the basis for how these characters can grow so strong in such a short space of time.

I do however think there are questions that making characters vastly stronger in a vast space of time does supplement, and this is something I do have a problem with in Super. Its how strong do you make a character for his respective purpose is too strong? That kind of thing. Does making the character this strong help the narrative in any way? Does it detract from certain situations? That kind of thing.

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:53 am

While the series does have some considerable amount of "bad" and "not so good stuff" (like inconsitent animation quality and at times very awful art and animation, specially on the Resurrection F Arc), it ultimately has enough redeemable qualities to consider it a good show (character development for some of the main and side characters, some good cuts here and there and pleasant animation on the last two arcs, entertaining enough episodes on a superficial level, serviceable music, serviceable gags and more).

All in all, the good outweights its negatives.
Lore is NOT story, and it never was, and you should stop spreading this nonsense.
Content is NOT substance.
Bunch of characters doing stuff do NOT make an esemble cast.
Secondary characters are secondary, they do NOT deserve or are entitled to having more screen time.

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:23 pm

lancerman wrote:
dragonball0900 wrote:Don't forget that the zenkai boost only got Goku like more than 30 times stronger or so. Not that much of a big boost in comparison to characters like Android 17, who would get like hundreds of times stronger just by "simple training".
Goku went from SSJ to SSJ2 and SSJ3 off screen in 7 years. Then in the time since made it to SSJB. Android 17 was roughly the same strength as Goku during that time period.
Then again, Goku's increase from SSJ to SSJ3 is just 8 times stronger. And those are transformations, not the base power, unlike Android 17 who just by doing simple training he increased his strength to a god level without any haxed transformation or rituals or something like that, he just "trained".

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by TekTheNinja » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:53 pm

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:Super isn't over yet, so it would be better to rather wait until that before we judge the product as a whole.
There's only three episodes left. Even if by some miracle those episodes are the greatest things ever, that won't change the fact that I hated a vast majority of the show.
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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by Shuby » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:41 pm

lancerman wrote:
Shuby wrote:Do you guys think bad outweighs the good by a good margin in this arc and why? I do think so:

- Powerscalling just goes completely out the window Deliberately done so that long discarded and wasted characters could be made useful again
- No powerups are explained SSG, SSGSS, UI, and Golden Freeza are explained. SSJB2 is pretty easy to infer as well. Literally Trunks is power up is the only one I can think of
- Everyone masters forms and technique in minutes Goku lost SSJG mid battle, SSJB was implied to have been achieved long before the Freeza debut, Goku has been UI twice without mastering it, Freeza didn't master Golden the first time around. SSJB2 was not around long enough to evaluate.
- Everyone recovers back to full strength in seconds
- Everyone can heal each other. Making senzubeans irrelevant plot point established in the Freeza arc
- Krillin gets so much build up only to be thrown out after 3 episodes into the tournament irrelevant, Kuriren got a strong showcase in the build to the arc, some characters were going to have to go early, Kuriren accomplished things and saw character growth, he was never going to factor into the end game.
- Piccolo and Gohan get so much hyped up only to disappoint in the end They aren't the main characters. They played a strong role. Again some characters were going to go early and whoever it was you were going to say "they dissapointed after build up". Would you have preferred they didn't get build up and showcase at all and just be fodder?
- Tenshinhan gets absolutely trashed on and did not even get a good build up or an episode of his own. See above
- Frieza despite looking so interesting in the start ends up being a jobber Freeza is one of the final 3 competitors, he eliminated important characters, his story isn't done, and the only characters who had an advantage on him were a god of destruction and a character so OP that everyone has been getting killed vs him.
- Roshi is kicking ass (and I loved that mind you) but we get zero explanation on how and WHEN he started training again he's Roshi, he can train whenever.
- Goku has to be the one to do everything despite him becoming less and less interesting
- Too much focus on Goku For both points, it's Goku's show. Goku turned into an ape and beat Pilaf, he beat the RR army, he beat King Piccolo, Piccolo Jr, he was the only match for Vegeta, he beat Freeza, and he beat Boo. In the entire original manga, Cell was the only character Goku didn't ultimately prevail against. In GT Goku beat virtually every villain. In Super Goku lost to Beerus, technically beat Freeza after the fight was over and he was just stealing Vegeta's win, lost to Hit, Trunks beat Zamasu. This is literally the only arc in the show where Goku might get a definitive win.
- Too much focus on u7, they literally are owning everyone The series is about U7. They are the protagonists
-how is 17 so strong? He trained off screen.
- Vegeta using his final annilhation but somehow stll can turn Blue next second and him not dying makes no sense Vegeta is significantly stronger than in Z. His final annihilation doesn't take up as much energy.
- And it made no sense that Vegeta was getting bodied by Toppo, then with his little pep talk was able to completely overpower Toppo. And Toppo kept spamming hakai even though that...y'know...KILLS PEOPLE. Goku did virtually the same thing vs Freeza.
-Jiren's backstory was very hollow and didn't add anything to his non-existent character, he's just Alien Sasuke! And worse, it didn't explain how Jiren got as unbelievably strong as he is. The whole execution of that was awful. He TRAINED. Do you need to know why Freeza was as strong as he was, or King Piccolo, or Boo, or anybody? Do you really need it all spoonfed to you
-There was so much potential with the 12 universes, the Gods, this tournament and Goku and Vegeta themselves except Super never really capitalized on it rushing from one thing to another In your opinion.
-I lost count how many times Goku claimed he lost stamina and then transforms into SSB with ease the next scene. It was like 3.
-If 17 blew himself up without a bomb how come 16 couldn't do that against Cell they have the same type of artificial ki 17 is part human he can use human ki.
-ToP characters that were hyped up, only to be thrown out in the most embarrassing ways possible. Not every character can have an epic performance and it would cheapen the really strong characters if they did.

the Events that lead up to this Arc " doesn't add-up " and doesn't help either. Just another terribly constructed Arc with inconsistent Character Models, bad Fighting-Animations and inconsistent power-levels. The fanservice and pandering is fucking up the little logic left in the show.
Your arguments are so embarassingly bad i wont even take time to refute them, granted some of them made sense.

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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by lancerman » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:50 pm

Shuby wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Shuby wrote:Do you guys think bad outweighs the good by a good margin in this arc and why? I do think so:

- Powerscalling just goes completely out the window Deliberately done so that long discarded and wasted characters could be made useful again
- No powerups are explained SSG, SSGSS, UI, and Golden Freeza are explained. SSJB2 is pretty easy to infer as well. Literally Trunks is power up is the only one I can think of
- Everyone masters forms and technique in minutes Goku lost SSJG mid battle, SSJB was implied to have been achieved long before the Freeza debut, Goku has been UI twice without mastering it, Freeza didn't master Golden the first time around. SSJB2 was not around long enough to evaluate.
- Everyone recovers back to full strength in seconds
- Everyone can heal each other. Making senzubeans irrelevant plot point established in the Freeza arc
- Krillin gets so much build up only to be thrown out after 3 episodes into the tournament irrelevant, Kuriren got a strong showcase in the build to the arc, some characters were going to have to go early, Kuriren accomplished things and saw character growth, he was never going to factor into the end game.
- Piccolo and Gohan get so much hyped up only to disappoint in the end They aren't the main characters. They played a strong role. Again some characters were going to go early and whoever it was you were going to say "they dissapointed after build up". Would you have preferred they didn't get build up and showcase at all and just be fodder?
- Tenshinhan gets absolutely trashed on and did not even get a good build up or an episode of his own. See above
- Frieza despite looking so interesting in the start ends up being a jobber Freeza is one of the final 3 competitors, he eliminated important characters, his story isn't done, and the only characters who had an advantage on him were a god of destruction and a character so OP that everyone has been getting killed vs him.
- Roshi is kicking ass (and I loved that mind you) but we get zero explanation on how and WHEN he started training again he's Roshi, he can train whenever.
- Goku has to be the one to do everything despite him becoming less and less interesting
- Too much focus on Goku For both points, it's Goku's show. Goku turned into an ape and beat Pilaf, he beat the RR army, he beat King Piccolo, Piccolo Jr, he was the only match for Vegeta, he beat Freeza, and he beat Boo. In the entire original manga, Cell was the only character Goku didn't ultimately prevail against. In GT Goku beat virtually every villain. In Super Goku lost to Beerus, technically beat Freeza after the fight was over and he was just stealing Vegeta's win, lost to Hit, Trunks beat Zamasu. This is literally the only arc in the show where Goku might get a definitive win.
- Too much focus on u7, they literally are owning everyone The series is about U7. They are the protagonists
-how is 17 so strong? He trained off screen.
- Vegeta using his final annilhation but somehow stll can turn Blue next second and him not dying makes no sense Vegeta is significantly stronger than in Z. His final annihilation doesn't take up as much energy.
- And it made no sense that Vegeta was getting bodied by Toppo, then with his little pep talk was able to completely overpower Toppo. And Toppo kept spamming hakai even though that...y'know...KILLS PEOPLE. Goku did virtually the same thing vs Freeza.
-Jiren's backstory was very hollow and didn't add anything to his non-existent character, he's just Alien Sasuke! And worse, it didn't explain how Jiren got as unbelievably strong as he is. The whole execution of that was awful. He TRAINED. Do you need to know why Freeza was as strong as he was, or King Piccolo, or Boo, or anybody? Do you really need it all spoonfed to you
-There was so much potential with the 12 universes, the Gods, this tournament and Goku and Vegeta themselves except Super never really capitalized on it rushing from one thing to another In your opinion.
-I lost count how many times Goku claimed he lost stamina and then transforms into SSB with ease the next scene. It was like 3.
-If 17 blew himself up without a bomb how come 16 couldn't do that against Cell they have the same type of artificial ki 17 is part human he can use human ki.
-ToP characters that were hyped up, only to be thrown out in the most embarrassing ways possible. Not every character can have an epic performance and it would cheapen the really strong characters if they did.

the Events that lead up to this Arc " doesn't add-up " and doesn't help either. Just another terribly constructed Arc with inconsistent Character Models, bad Fighting-Animations and inconsistent power-levels. The fanservice and pandering is fucking up the little logic left in the show.
Your arguments are so embarassingly bad i wont even take time to refute them, granted some of them made sense.
Then you shouldn’t have made the post. Also no offense anybody who made a giant monstrosity of a post that essentially boiled down to “they didn’t spoon feed me enough information and didn’t cater to certain characters I wanted” should talk about embarrassing arguments.

Seems like you just wanted your silly opinion validated.

Shuby
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Posts: 344
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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by Shuby » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:46 pm

lancerman wrote:
Shuby wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Your arguments are so embarassingly bad i wont even take time to refute them, granted some of them made sense.
Then you shouldn’t have made the post. Also no offense anybody who made a giant monstrosity of a post that essentially boiled down to “they didn’t spoon feed me enough information and didn’t cater to certain characters I wanted” should talk about embarrassing arguments.

Seems like you just wanted your silly opinion validated.
It has nothing to do with spoon feeding but when they leave out or dont even make an attempt to explain certain things which can annoy viewers/fans or leaves them questioning because an essential piece of the puzzle is missing, it is then pretty natural to ask or point out things which the series should have done, I'm sorry but a bad and a inconsistent written episodes or aspects of the show should be pointed out, no series is perfect but that's where constructive criticizing comes from. The fact that you're giving silly arguments such as stop expecting them to spoon feed you or arguments such as:He TRAINED. Do you need to know why Freeza was as strong as he was, or King Piccolo, or Boo, or anybody? Do you really need it all spoonfed to you, uumh why make an attempt to explain his back story then only for the execution to be this shallow and uninteresting? Jiren isn't a character at all. Jiren is a plot device so he is not a villain compared to characters you've mentioned.Why does Jiren get hate over the others? Because he lacks the charm. Personality does wonder to hide a character's flaws; Freeza, Cell, and Buu all had some kind of charm or cuteness to their personality that made them entertaining to watch even if they are stupid. Jiren does not. Add in the terrible backstory and Jiren has nothing to hide his flaws - they're in plain view. He's not very pro-active and his strength is OP which ruins the "tension". All of this can and will take the viewer out of their suspension of disbelief - that may be the worst thing a character can do outside being boring. Jiren has both, even if other characters are badly written it doesn't excuse him.
You don't need a backstory to make a character interesting *all the time*. A characters personality and character interactions is enough to find entertaining and engaging. A villain doesn't always need to be complex to make him/her and the story work. the difference between jiren and Freeza/cell/buu is that jiren doesnt DO anything. he has no presence in this arc and is only the focus now because hes the only one left. frieza, cell and buu went on rampages, interacted with people and changed over the course of their arcs whether figuratively speaking or literally, we saw how Super Buu got stronger, we saw how kid Boo turned into Fat Boo, we saw how Cell got stronger, We saw how Freeza got stronger(even if it made not sense), we see nothing from Jiren.

lancerman
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Posts: 412
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Re: Bad outweighs the good by a good margin?

Post by lancerman » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:16 pm

Shuby wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Shuby wrote:
Your arguments are so embarassingly bad i wont even take time to refute them, granted some of them made sense.
Then you shouldn’t have made the post. Also no offense anybody who made a giant monstrosity of a post that essentially boiled down to “they didn’t spoon feed me enough information and didn’t cater to certain characters I wanted” should talk about embarrassing arguments.

Seems like you just wanted your silly opinion validated.
It has nothing to do with spoon feeding but when they leave out or dont even make an attempt to explain certain things which can annoy viewers/fans or leaves them questioning because an essential piece of the puzzle is missing, it is then pretty natural to ask or point out things which the series should have done, I'm sorry but a bad and a inconsistent written episodes or aspects of the show should be pointed out, no series is perfect but that's where constructive criticizing comes from. The fact that you're giving silly arguments such as stop expecting them to spoon feed you or arguments such as:He TRAINED. Do you need to know why Freeza was as strong as he was, or King Piccolo, or Boo, or anybody? Do you really need it all spoonfed to you, uumh why make an attempt to explain his back story then only for the execution to be this shallow and uninteresting? Jiren isn't a character at all. Jiren is a plot device so he is not a villain compared to characters you've mentioned.Why does Jiren get hate over the others? Because he lacks the charm. Personality does wonder to hide a character's flaws; Freeza, Cell, and Buu all had some kind of charm or cuteness to their personality that made them entertaining to watch even if they are stupid. Jiren does not. Add in the terrible backstory and Jiren has nothing to hide his flaws - they're in plain view. He's not very pro-active and his strength is OP which ruins the "tension". All of this can and will take the viewer out of their suspension of disbelief - that may be the worst thing a character can do outside being boring. Jiren has both, even if other characters are badly written it doesn't excuse him.
You don't need a backstory to make a character interesting *all the time*. A characters personality and character interactions is enough to find entertaining and engaging. A villain doesn't always need to be complex to make him/her and the story work. the difference between jiren and Freeza/cell/buu is that jiren doesnt DO anything. he has no presence in this arc and is only the focus now because hes the only one left. frieza, cell and buu went on rampages, interacted with people and changed over the course of their arcs whether figuratively speaking or literally, we saw how Super Buu got stronger, we saw how kid Boo turned into Fat Boo, we saw how Cell got stronger, We saw how Freeza got stronger(even if it made not sense), we see nothing from Jiren.
So I read this post. The first time you attempt to make an argument it goes into the Jiran discussion. Even that was just your opinion of Jiran and had nothing to do with your initial argument of why was he so strong. Jiran is a standoffish superhero caricature. His backstory explains why he is a standoffish super hero character. He believes in justice because he wanted avenge his parents, he's standoffish because he doesn't trust people since he was betrayed by his former team. The character is basically Batman. He's very driven to the point of insanity and is an unsocial prick. Despite popular opinion, a character doesn't have to be likeable to be a good character.

Kid Boo had tons of personality, but he was one of the least interesting villains of not only the series but of the different versions of Boo.

We don't need to know how Jiran got this strong. Cell got stronger because he started weak and his goal was to absorb the Androids to realize his strength. Boo got stronger because characters were fusing and unlocking their potential to get ahead of him so he needed a counter. Freeza the first time we saw him was actually the same strength, his transformation were self imposed locks.

If you're talking about Freeza in Super. How is rationalizing that Jiran got strong through a life's worth of training harder to believe than Freeza spending a couple of months to go from below SSJ to on par with SSJB? It took Goku anywhere from 10-15 years to reach what Freeza did in a couple of months.

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