Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Omniboy
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:42 pm

Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Omniboy » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:41 pm

Maybe I just need a quick refresher, but if I recall aren't they pretty much the same thing. In Frieza's struggle against Toppo, Frieza tries to stop the sphere, only to fail and get hit point blank with it. But don't both erase anything from existence? I mean "Destruction" is said right before the Toppo releases the sphere just like Beerus says destruction before he uses "destruction"... right?

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6049
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:53 am

I figure that the direct hakai technique such as Beerus used on Zamasu is simply a more refined/accurate version of shooting it as a ki blast. It's essentially the same thing but it uses more skill and precision.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:53 am

If you get killed by Hakai, your soul gets erased as well. So basically a two-in-one attack. A bit different than the "destroys automatically once it hits" technique it was portrayed to be initially but still pretty decent.

Goku786
Newbie
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Goku786 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:40 pm

"Hakai"could have a better name, its doesn't sound very destructive or dangerous
My Favorite Dragon Ball Merchandise Store, trust me, click here, <--- BEST Ultra Instinct Goku Designs!

User avatar
Vegeta_Sama
Regular
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:59 pm
Location: Capsule Corporation

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:45 pm

Goku786 wrote:"Hakai"could have a better name, its doesn't sound very destructive or dangerous
It sounded badass as hell when Beerus first used it on Zamasu. And since it litterally means destruction in japanese, I'm sure it sounds pretty destructive for japanese people
My interpretation of the Dragon Ball Canon

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1998
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:24 am

But don't both erase anything from existence?
Not anything. In the manga, it is stated that Hakai cannot erase immortal beings. Which is why Goku could have never erased Fused Zamasu, because in the manga Fused Zamasu was fully immortal, he wasn't half-mortal like in the anime (on top of the fact that Goku's Hakai was quite slow and inefficient).

I think that the Destruction technique used by Beerus and the Energy of Destruction technique used by Sidra and Toppo are the same thing, and in fact the mountain that was hit by Toppo's Energy of Destruction vanished like Zamasu did when he was destroyed by Beeerus. I believe that the Energy of Destruction is just the power of Destruction manifested as energy.
The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute! Stare in awe, I am justice incarnate!

User avatar
Hawk9211
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 811
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:23 am

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Hawk9211 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:47 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
But don't both erase anything from existence?
Not anything. In the manga, it is stated that Hakai cannot erase immortal beings. Which is why Goku could have never erased Fused Zamasu, because in the manga Fused Zamasu was fully immortal, he wasn't half-mortal like in the anime (on top of the fact that Goku's Hakai was quite slow and inefficient).

I think that the Destruction technique used by Beerus and the Energy of Destruction technique used by Sidra and Toppo are the same thing, and in fact the mountain that was hit by Toppo's Energy of Destruction vanished like Zamasu did when he was destroyed by Beeerus. I believe that the Energy of Destruction is just the power of Destruction manifested as energy.
In the anime,the same is implied since whis says they have something better than pot they brought.Why would he say that if beerus can deal with zamasu by using hakai?
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1998
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:45 am

Hawk9211 wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
But don't both erase anything from existence?
Not anything. In the manga, it is stated that Hakai cannot erase immortal beings. Which is why Goku could have never erased Fused Zamasu, because in the manga Fused Zamasu was fully immortal, he wasn't half-mortal like in the anime (on top of the fact that Goku's Hakai was quite slow and inefficient).

I think that the Destruction technique used by Beerus and the Energy of Destruction technique used by Sidra and Toppo are the same thing, and in fact the mountain that was hit by Toppo's Energy of Destruction vanished like Zamasu did when he was destroyed by Beeerus. I believe that the Energy of Destruction is just the power of Destruction manifested as energy.
In the anime,the same is implied since whis says they have something better than pot they brought.Why would he say that if beerus can deal with zamasu by using hakai?
Yes, exactly. And it makes sense that Hakai cannot work on immortal beings. Otherwise, what would be stopping the Gods of Destruction from starting a rebellion and erasing the Omni-King?
The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute! Stare in awe, I am justice incarnate!

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3706
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Lord Frieza » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:18 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Not anything. In the manga, it is stated that Hakai cannot erase immortal beings. Which is why Goku could have never erased Fused Zamasu, because in the manga Fused Zamasu was fully immortal, he wasn't half-mortal like in the anime (on top of the fact that Goku's Hakai was quite slow and inefficient).

I think that the Destruction technique used by Beerus and the Energy of Destruction technique used by Sidra and Toppo are the same thing, and in fact the mountain that was hit by Toppo's Energy of Destruction vanished like Zamasu did when he was destroyed by Beeerus. I believe that the Energy of Destruction is just the power of Destruction manifested as energy.
In the anime,the same is implied since whis says they have something better than pot they brought.Why would he say that if beerus can deal with zamasu by using hakai?
Yes, exactly. And it makes sense that Hakai cannot work on immortal beings. Otherwise, what would be stopping the Gods of Destruction from starting a rebellion and erasing the Omni-King?
Well we don't know if the angels are immortal but in the anime they are standing right next to Beerus and Champa during their little spat and are fine while everything else gets erased. It could simple fall under "Destruction Immunity".

I am a bit confused though, if Hakai dose not work on an immortal then why was Fused Zamasu being erased by Goku's use of Hakai? From what I understand he only survived because he used Mai as a hostage and his immortal body regerated the damage. Did I miss something?

ToshioWrites
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by ToshioWrites » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:24 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote: In the anime,the same is implied since whis says they have something better than pot they brought.Why would he say that if beerus can deal with zamasu by using hakai?
Yes, exactly. And it makes sense that Hakai cannot work on immortal beings. Otherwise, what would be stopping the Gods of Destruction from starting a rebellion and erasing the Omni-King?
Well we don't know if the angels are immortal but in the anime they are standing right next to Beerus and Champa during their little spat and are fine while everything else gets erased. It could simple fall under "Destruction Immunity".

I am a bit confused though, if Hakai dose not work on an immortal then why was Fused Zamasu being erased by Goku's use of Hakai? From what I understand he only survived because he used Mai as a hostage and his immortal body regerated the damage. Did I miss something?

My guess is that he would have just regenerated back to normal but he and Goku didn’t know that. Remember when vegito blew off half his body and it just fixed itself, I’d say same thing would happen

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3706
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Lord Frieza » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:29 pm

ToshioWrites wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Yes, exactly. And it makes sense that Hakai cannot work on immortal beings. Otherwise, what would be stopping the Gods of Destruction from starting a rebellion and erasing the Omni-King?
Well we don't know if the angels are immortal but in the anime they are standing right next to Beerus and Champa during their little spat and are fine while everything else gets erased. It could simple fall under "Destruction Immunity".

I am a bit confused though, if Hakai dose not work on an immortal then why was Fused Zamasu being erased by Goku's use of Hakai? From what I understand he only survived because he used Mai as a hostage and his immortal body regerated the damage. Did I miss something?

My guess is that he would have just regenerated back to normal but he and Goku didn’t know that. Remember when vegito blew off half his body and it just fixed itself, I’d say same thing would happen
I guess the manga's dragon balls (or at least the Super ones) must grant "Absolute Immortality". That means that the possessor cannot die no matter what. Even if you erased them completely, body and soul, they'd still come back and if the paradox enabling powers of the time ring are still in effect then Fused Zamasu is also immune to the effects of causality. Not an easy person to kill without a cosmic delete button.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1998
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:50 am

I am a bit confused though, if Hakai dose not work on an immortal then why was Fused Zamasu being erased by Goku's use of Hakai? From what I understand he only survived because he used Mai as a hostage and his immortal body regerated the damage. Did I miss something?
It might have looked like the Hakai was actually erasing Fused Zamasu, but Beerus outright stated that it doesn't work on immortal beings, therefore we already know Fused Zamasu would have survived. So, yes, I think that Fused Zamasu would have been able to regenerate back to normal from nothingness. He probably freaked out because he didn't know he could resist the Hakai.
I guess the manga's dragon balls (or at least the Super ones) must grant "Absolute Immortality". That means that the possessor cannot die no matter what. Even if you erased them completely, body and soul, they'd still come back and if the paradox enabling powers of the time ring are still in effect then Fused Zamasu is also immune to the effects of causality. Not an easy person to kill without a cosmic delete button.
Indeed, the only weakness of Fused Zamasu is that he was not an official Supreme Kai, and so his fusion had a time-limit of one hour. However, the immortality of Future Zamasu stopped the fusion from ending, and that ultimately gave birth to Infinite Zamasu. It would seem that, when Goku Black and Future Zamasu fused, they actually merged at a cellular level and they just wouldn't defuse after the time-limit was however.

But however, as it was pointed above, it is heavily implied in the anime by Whis that the Hakai doesn't work on immortal beings.
The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute! Stare in awe, I am justice incarnate!

User avatar
Helios518
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 883
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:42 pm
Location: Not where you think

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Helios518 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:19 am

Lord Frieza wrote: I guess the manga's dragon balls (or at least the Super ones) must grant "Absolute Immortality". That means that the possessor cannot die no matter what. Even if you erased them completely, body and soul, they'd still come back and if the paradox enabling powers of the time ring are still in effect then Fused Zamasu is also immune to the effects of causality. Not an easy person to kill without a cosmic delete button.
It’s not “Absolute” or “cannot die no matter what” immortality because Zeno erased him.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1998
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:30 am

Helios518 wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote: I guess the manga's dragon balls (or at least the Super ones) must grant "Absolute Immortality". That means that the possessor cannot die no matter what. Even if you erased them completely, body and soul, they'd still come back and if the paradox enabling powers of the time ring are still in effect then Fused Zamasu is also immune to the effects of causality. Not an easy person to kill without a cosmic delete button.
It’s not “Absolute” or “cannot die no matter what” immortality because Zeno erased him.
Zen-Oh is the King of Everything, logic dictates that he is above the power of the Super Dragon Balls, therefore the immortality granted by the Super Dragon Balls cannot resist Zen-Oh himself.
The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute! Stare in awe, I am justice incarnate!

User avatar
Helios518
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 883
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:42 pm
Location: Not where you think

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Helios518 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:54 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Helios518 wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote: I guess the manga's dragon balls (or at least the Super ones) must grant "Absolute Immortality". That means that the possessor cannot die no matter what. Even if you erased them completely, body and soul, they'd still come back and if the paradox enabling powers of the time ring are still in effect then Fused Zamasu is also immune to the effects of causality. Not an easy person to kill without a cosmic delete button.
It’s not “Absolute” or “cannot die no matter what” immortality because Zeno erased him.
Zen-Oh is the King of Everything, logic dictates that he is above the power of the Super Dragon Balls, therefore the immortality granted by the Super Dragon Balls cannot resist Zen-Oh himself.
Sure, but that just makes the immortality not absolute because Zamasu can be killed/erased otherwise you’re contradicting what “absolute” means.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3706
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:38 am

Helios518 wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Helios518 wrote:
It’s not “Absolute” or “cannot die no matter what” immortality because Zeno erased him.
Zen-Oh is the King of Everything, logic dictates that he is above the power of the Super Dragon Balls, therefore the immortality granted by the Super Dragon Balls cannot resist Zen-Oh himself.
Sure, but that just makes the immortality not absolute because Zamasu can be killed/erased otherwise you’re contradicting what “absolute” means.
Not really, what your thinking of is referred to as Omnilock. This is were the user is apart from everything, a unique entity of their own unbound from the rules of any reality. Such a being literally immune to everything include any attack, the effects of time, reality warping and manipulation, even Universal Irreversibility and Nonexistence.

Zamasu and the Super Dragon Balls are both part of the DB universe and a subject to its laws. They are part of that universe. Zen-Oh holds what is effectively Omni-Control over all the DB multiverse, allowing him to access its cosmic source code and delete what ever he wants regardless of whatever it may be. Zamasu's immortality is absolute in the face of literally everything the universe can throw at him, but Zen-Oh's power is quit literally beyond "Absolute".

User avatar
Helios518
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 883
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:42 pm
Location: Not where you think

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Helios518 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:51 am

Lord Frieza wrote: 1) Zamasu and the Super Dragon Balls are both part of the DB universe and a subject to its laws. They are part of that universe. 2) Zen-Oh hold what is effectively Omni-Control over all the DB multiverse, allowing him to access its cosmic source code and delete what ever he wants regardless of whatever it may be. 3) Zamasu's immortality is absolute in the face of literally everything the universe can throw at him, but 4) Zen-Oh's power is quit literally one step beyond "Absolute".
1) So it’s only absolute in a universal level? That’s not absolute.

2) You’re giving Zeno powers that’s he doesn’t have (as far as we’ve seen). He just erases things not able to manipulate or create things otherwise he would’ve created a friend himself.

3) That’s like saying Raditz’s power is absolute in the face of everything before Saiyan Saga.

4) Zeno isn’t beyond “absolute”, Zeno is the “absolute” force of a DB timeline.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2150
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:02 am

In practice, the two serve the same function: erasure of whatever the Hakaishin doesn't like.

It was stated that Toppo needed to charge up his Hakai Energy when he shot it out; when Sidra gave it to the assassin leader, he also shot it out as a ball of energy. It could be that the Hakai Energy ball is a more general purpose erasure tool, whilst the Hakai Technique is a directed erasure at a single target.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1998
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:06 am

Helios518 wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Helios518 wrote:
It’s not “Absolute” or “cannot die no matter what” immortality because Zeno erased him.
Zen-Oh is the King of Everything, logic dictates that he is above the power of the Super Dragon Balls, therefore the immortality granted by the Super Dragon Balls cannot resist Zen-Oh himself.
Sure, but that just makes the immortality not absolute because Zamasu can be killed/erased otherwise you’re contradicting what “absolute” means.
I never claimed that Fused Zamasu's immortality was 'absolute', as in 'impossible to counter'.

I claimed, however, that even the Gods of Destruction could do nothing against Fused Zamasu's immortality, which is astonishing. That is a fact.
The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute! Stare in awe, I am justice incarnate!

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3706
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Hakai and sphere of destruction... how are they different?

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:10 am

Helios518 wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
Helios518 wrote:
Sure, but that just makes the immortality not absolute because Zamasu can be killed/erased otherwise you’re contradicting what “absolute” means.

1) Zamasu and the Super Dragon Balls are both part of the DB universe and a subject to its laws. They are part of that universe. 2) Zen-Oh hold what is effectively Omni-Control over all the DB multiverse, allowing him to access its cosmic source code and delete what ever he wants regardless of whatever it may be. 3) Zamasu's immortality is absolute in the face of literally everything the universe can throw at him, but 4) Zen-Oh's power is quit literally one step beyond "Absolute".

1) So it’s only absolute in a universal level? That’s not absolute.

2) You’re giving Zeno powers that’s he doesn’t have (as far as we’ve seen). He just erases things not able to manipulate or create things otherwise he would’ve created a friend himself.

3) That’s like saying Raditz’s power is absolute in the face of everything before Saiyan Saga.


4) Zeno isn’t beyond “absolute”, Zeno is the “absolute” force of a DB timeline.
Everything is graded these days, there are multiple types of immortality, rageing from just not ageing to absolute. Zamasu's version of this ability ticks the most boxes for the highest grade classed as absolute. Absolute itself is also graded in fiction and in this case it would be classed as universal level, the laws that govern our own reality are absolute yet in another universe they may not exist at all such as one of chaos. Even infinity has levels when you start bringing multiverse into it.

Edit: to put it this way.

Zamasu's immortality is a universal absolute while Zen-Oh Erase is a multi-universal one. One trumps the other due to its greater level of infinity.

As for 2) maybe I didn't explain it well as I didn't mean Zen=Oh can manipluate the universe, just trying to explain how his Erase function.

Post Reply