Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

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TheSaiyanGod
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Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:05 pm

Was it really necessary for Mastered Ultra Instinct to appear in this tournament?

Such an important and powerful form to appear only to fight in a single episode?

I've never complained about Goku's design with MUI, I'm talking about the meaning of his appearance.
Toriyama could have simply '' saved '' a hair color to use at another time, in which Goku could have more screen time with that transformation.
Giving him one more power up in this tournament with a new hair color to fight for just one episode seemed like something massive and was not really necessary, Goku could have used only black-haired UI.

If he did not master the UI, then Goku could train to master the technique in possible new sagas and did not seem so forced to do that in a few minutes.
There would also be more space for creating new villains who need not be so powerful.
Last edited by TheSaiyanGod on Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by ToshioWrites » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:09 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:Was it really necessary for Mastered Ultra Instinct to appear in this tournament?

Such an important and powerful form to appear only to fight in a single episode?

I've never complained here about Goku's design with the MUI, I'm talking about the meaning of his appearance.
Toriyama could have simply '' saved '' a hair color to use at another time, in which Goku could have more screen time with that transformation.
Giving him one more power up in this tournament with a new hair color to fight for just one episode seemed like something massive and was not really necessary, Goku could have used only black-haired UI.

If he did not master the UI, then Goku could train to master the technique in possible new sagas and did not seem so forced to do that in a few minutes.
There would also be more space for creating new villains who need not be so powerful.

I think UI Omen ( black hair) might be a Toei exclusive thing. AFAIK Toriyama didn't do any design for that and only did the Blanco form which we saw.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:30 pm

ToshioWrites wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Was it really necessary for Mastered Ultra Instinct to appear in this tournament?

Such an important and powerful form to appear only to fight in a single episode?

I've never complained here about Goku's design with the MUI, I'm talking about the meaning of his appearance.
Toriyama could have simply '' saved '' a hair color to use at another time, in which Goku could have more screen time with that transformation.
Giving him one more power up in this tournament with a new hair color to fight for just one episode seemed like something massive and was not really necessary, Goku could have used only black-haired UI.

If he did not master the UI, then Goku could train to master the technique in possible new sagas and did not seem so forced to do that in a few minutes.
There would also be more space for creating new villains who need not be so powerful.

I think UI Omen ( black hair) might be a Toei exclusive thing. AFAIK Toriyama didn't do any design for that and only did the Blanco form which we saw.
If Omen, an integral part of the story, which was fleshed out with Goku awakening it 3 times, and which built up perfectly to MUI Goku, was a Toei exclusive thing, then that means Toei deserves major credit and respect. That means Toei made the anime far better.

However that's likely not the case and just your head canon. People throw around the word "Toei exclusive" way too much. And you can tell when they do it with a negative connotation
Last edited by ZenkaiBoosts on Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by ToshioWrites » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:31 pm

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
ToshioWrites wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Was it really necessary for Mastered Ultra Instinct to appear in this tournament?

Such an important and powerful form to appear only to fight in a single episode?

I've never complained here about Goku's design with the MUI, I'm talking about the meaning of his appearance.
Toriyama could have simply '' saved '' a hair color to use at another time, in which Goku could have more screen time with that transformation.
Giving him one more power up in this tournament with a new hair color to fight for just one episode seemed like something massive and was not really necessary, Goku could have used only black-haired UI.

If he did not master the UI, then Goku could train to master the technique in possible new sagas and did not seem so forced to do that in a few minutes.
There would also be more space for creating new villains who need not be so powerful.

I think UI Omen ( black hair) might be a Toei exclusive thing. AFAIK Toriyama didn't do any design for that and only did the Blanco form which we saw.
If Omen, an integral part of the story, which was fleshed out with Goku awakening it 3 times, and which built up perfectly to MUI Goku, was a Toei exclusive thing, then that means Toei deserves major credit and respect. That means Toei made the anime far better.

Are you trying to turn this into a anime vs manga thing?

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Simere » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:46 pm

I don't think one episode matters. That's enough to establish itself. And when we're looking back on it down the road we're going to see it as just one transformation, with Omen only being Goku attempting to reach it.

As for whether it's necessary...what is necessary? Pretty much nothing, right? So, I don't really understand asking the question. The question they asked was surely, "Would people find it cool if Goku reached this level?", and they correctly answered yes. Then they constructed an arc almost entirely around that idea.

There's no need to worry about creating weak enemies. They shouldn't be doing that, anyway. Ever upward.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Miracles » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:54 pm

Yes. It's the continued story point of Dragonball. Some beings increase their ki through transformations to get stronger. Like Freeza, Saiyans are one of those beings.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:58 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:Such an important and powerful form to appear only to fight in a single episode?
I know I'm nitpicking here, but they're both the same form. Ultra Instinct Omen is just an incomplete version of that form, kind of equivalent to False Super Saiyan from the fourth DBZ movie. In regards to the UI's attributes, you've been seeing Goku slowly grow accustomed to the form throughout the tournament.

As for why the perfected Ultra Instinct appears in one episode specifically, I'm gonna have to be honest -- it's a pretty broken technique. I don't mean for that to be construed in a negative way because I actually quite like the concept behind the form, but I can't imagine Ultra Instinct not getting incredibly stale after a few separate uses since it's essentially the "debug mode" of ALL Dragon Ball transformations. Narratively, I think it makes perfect sense to relegate it exclusively to Super's climax and perhaps the upcoming film as well.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:00 am

Simere wrote:I don't think one episode matters. That's enough to establish itself. And when we're looking back on it down the road we're going to see it as just one transformation, with Omen only being Goku attempting to reach it.

As for whether it's necessary...what is necessary? Pretty much nothing, right? So, I don't really understand asking the question. The question they asked was surely, "Would people find it cool if Goku reached this level?", and they correctly answered yes. Then they constructed an arc almost entirely around that idea.

There's no need to worry about creating weak enemies. They shouldn't be doing that, anyway. Ever upward.
The point is not just to establish.
It is the fact that they have created such a powerful transformation that they will have little screen time. Little time to explore it and little time to see her in combat.
All transformations have had at least 2 episodes to be exploited, but DBS is ending, so it will not happen with MUI for now.

And the use of a new color saturated the question of 'new transformations', and this limits the possibilities of creating new forms.
It did not have to be used now.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:01 pm

Given how strong Jiren was, yes, it was necessary from a narrative perspective.

Edit: Also, given how story foreshadowed the concept of a mortal attaining power that could possibly ascend beyond the realm of the Hakaishin, I feel the inclusion of Ultra Instinct was a good book ends to that given the context of the Tournament Of Power.
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Lionel » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:22 pm

It's the easiest means through which Goku is able to fight Jiren while making it into a spectacle. I think there's a whole host of ways that Universe 7 could have eliminated him that wouldn't have required a sparkling new transformation, but Dragon Ball isn't in the market of subverting its mechanics system with something that runs in contradiction to the long established rule of power ultimately determining everything. Is it because they lack the creativity to think of something or because they don't want to be bothered trying something else? Who can say. Regardless, Goku has a new transformation and it'll fulfill its purpose of giving him a tangible foothold to stand his ground against Jiren with.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:08 pm

Lionel wrote:It's the easiest means through which Goku is able to fight Jiren while making it into a spectacle. I think there's a whole host of ways that Universe 7 could have eliminated him that wouldn't have required a sparkling new transformation, but Dragon Ball isn't in the market of subverting its mechanics system with something that runs in contradiction to the long established rule of power ultimately determining everything. Is it because they lack the creativity to think of something or because they don't want to be bothered trying something else? Who can say. Regardless, Goku has a new transformation and it'll fulfill its purpose of giving him a tangible foothold to stand his ground against Jiren with.
Interesting points and when I think over this arc from its beginning to now I feel that the writing was going for something allot more different then what the end result is. The last Dozen or so episodes felt to generic play-by-the-numbers storytelling by what has always seemed to be Dragon Ball's most basic concept, the great power level wins/Just Punch Really, Really Harder. This is in contrast to the beginning of that arc that felt allot more deeper and by the rules of the ToP, it being a team battel and the Uniqueness of the other Universes that U7 was going to have to try new things then just overpowering their opponents and that U7 would have to personally grow both with each other and for themselves from this in learning leasson that they are not the only Major power in the multiverse.

So it feels like the writers where going for one thing at the start that was going to be more daring and more in the gray areas of how to win and become a better fighter, but then for whatever reasons what I saw got stopped by whoever, management or executives or editorial mandate or the toy lines or whatever and writers where told to make the story more generic and what it always ends up being.

This leads me to was a New Transformation necessary ~~~~~ Maybe but I think the execution could have been done better, not just something that seemed at random to come out of the Spirt Bomb. But more over, I think the Mastering of UI was indeed Not Necessary for this arc.

Every new level Goku has gotten has taken time to master, accept for SSJ-3 which can't be mastered it seemed. Mastering UI should have been part of the next arc, so IMO that is then main thing I think was really not nessary in putting in a Master of this New Transformation Only Achieved in the last 30 mins in story time and now is already mastered just seems overly rushed and should have been its own arc.
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Kaiosama » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:28 pm

The narrative of this arc was about Goku (and Vegeta in a way) breaking through their limits and surpassing the Gods. Thus the transformation was necessary because UI is the only way to surpass the Gods, outside of overtaking them in battle power like Jiren (Vegeta too seems to be following the Jiren path of raw power vs the martial arts theme of UI). In order to combat a power beyond Gods, you need a technique of the Gods and a higher battle power to boot.

I think it makes perfect sense that Goku got a new transformation. Do I think it was handled in the best way? No. They could have written it better, but I believe the Omen form was Toei wanting to keep the hype and interest around the Tournament of Power going into the climax of the arc.

I personally believe they should have had Vegeta break his limits first, since he had the inferior form, and be the top dog against U11 until Goku was pushed into a corner and unlocked his Full UI. It would have made more sense and would have been a clean progression that wouldn't have devalued Vegeta's form as much as they did by introducing Omen before Beyond Super Saiyan Blue. Now Vegeta appears to be two forms behind Goku again. Bad writing. Goku should be stronger, but at least keep them relatively close.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by sintzu » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:34 pm

I think this kind of form that gives Goku such a huge power up should've been saved for later as UI Omen could've been more than enough for this arc. Same thing with Jiren, there's no reason to introduce someone "stronger than a destroyer" at this point in the story when Goku and Vegeta were nowhere near a destroyer let alone anyone above them.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:If he did not master the UI, then Goku could train to master the technique in possible new sagas and did not seem so forced to do that in a few minutes. There would also be more space for creating new villains who need not be so powerful.
Taking time with things seems to be a major issue with modren DB as it seems like they want to get to the next thing as fast as possible before doing anything with what they already have.
Lord Beerus wrote:Given how strong Jiren was, yes, it was necessary from a narrative perspective.
They didn't have to make Jiren this strong.
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by GamerSkull » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:56 pm

I like Ultra Instinct quite a bit but I would say it's presentation was a bit rushed.

Were Super not ending, the silver-haired mastered version should have appeared in another arc so Goku had more time to train with the unmastered version and got more of a hang of the ropes.

But alas...
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by GigaDrill » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:16 am

We didn't really need a new transformation after Super Saiyan, or Super Saiyan God. Gohan's SSJ2 transformation could have simply stayed as Super Saiyan, except now he's holding nothing back. Subsequent transformations could have been amended so that Gokuu's SSJ3 strength was instead his SSJ strength, and the others could have been removed. Even Super Saiyan Blue could have simply been Super Saiyan à la Gokuu vs Beerus. Ultra Instinct could have been another technique, like that one Gokuu learned when training with Popo.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Logania » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:43 am

It wouldn't be a Dragon Ball arc without a new transformation.

Saiyan- Kaioken (technically a technique, but it also changes Goku's appearance so I'm including it)
Namek- Super Saiyan
Androids- Super Saiyan 2 (Ascended Super Saiyan and Ultra Super Saiyan also)
Buu- Super Saiyan 3
God of Destruction- Super Saiyan God
Resurrection F- Super Saiyan Blue
U6- Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken
Future Trunks- Super Saiyan Rage (Super Saiyan Rosé also)
Tournament of Power- Ultra Instinct (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolution also)
Last edited by Logania on Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by KingKaash » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:44 am

Dragon Ball Super will not air after Episode 131 so I don't know when they would've done the complete Ultra Instinct. This was their chance to show it
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Bullza » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:01 am

It being used for just one episode could probably be for the best. You'd think that they will go all out with the animation and action in the next episode and it would be far better to remember the form from just that one fantastic episode than a few decent episodes.

Ultra Instinct Omen only appeared for about a half an episode originally but because it was done so damn well it made it memorable and left people eagerly wanting to see it more.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Simere » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:49 am

sintzu wrote:I think this kind of form that gives Goku such a huge power up should've been saved for later as UI Omen could've been more than enough for this arc. Same thing with Jiren, there's no reason to introduce someone "stronger than a destroyer" at this point in the story when Goku and Vegeta were nowhere near a destroyer let alone anyone above them.

Taking time with things seems to be a major issue with modren DB as it seems like they want to get to the next thing as fast as possible before doing anything with what they already have.
When did classic DB takes its time? Whenever a new enemy or limit was presented it was surpassed the same arc. DBS, on the other hand, kept Beerus as this nebulous bar they couldn't touch until now, and that resulted in a very poor sense of progression—a bad thing for a series that thrives on its characters reaching new heights. Note, too, that along the way Beerus was revealed to be nowhere near the highest bar they could reach. It was stagnating, and that's why they had to go beyond that level.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Basaku » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:01 am

Well, SSB is over 2 years old now so right about on time for new wave of toy designs. I mean, that's just the way it is

Was it necessary? No. Was it predictable? Of course

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