Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by sintzu » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:04 am

Simere wrote:When did classic DB takes its time? Whenever a new enemy or limit was presented it was surpassed the same arc.
It always took its time. It took Goku 3 tournaments to finally win. It took him 8 arcs to reach Ssj. It took Gohan 3 arcs to finally show his true power. It took Vegeta all of Z to become a good guy. It took Piccolo I'd say up until him fighting with Goku on Namek to truly become a good guy. It took Bulma nearly the entire story to find her "prince".

The current arc introduced 10 new destroyers with some being stronger than the 2 we know yet Goku who couldn't even touch any of them has now seemingly surpassed them. The current arc decided to introduce 6 new universes and do 0 with them.

What we should've gotten is each universe being introduced and exploared at a time with each having developed characters. Instead of jumping over ALL the destroyers Goku should've been limited to surpassing them one at a time.
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Simere » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:02 am

sintzu wrote:
Simere wrote:When did classic DB takes its time? Whenever a new enemy or limit was presented it was surpassed the same arc.
It always took its time. It took Goku 3 tournaments to finally win. It took him 8 arcs to reach Ssj. It took Gohan 3 arcs to finally show his true power. It took Vegeta all of Z to become a good guy. It took Piccolo I'd say up until him fighting with Goku on Namek to truly become a good guy. It took Bulma nearly the entire story to find her "prince".
I thought we were talking about the time it took to gain power, not for Bulma to find love or Vegeta's heart to grow three inches. I'd certainly improve modern DB's character development, and the first thing I'd do to accomplish that is cut the dead weight of the old supporting cast. But back on the power jumps: Super Saiyan was conceived of and introduced in the same arc he got it in; you might as well say it took 13 arcs for Goku to get UI if you're going to look at it that way. Fair enough about Gohan, though. UI also took 3 arcs.
The current arc introduced 10 new destroyers with some being stronger than the 2 we know yet Goku who couldn't even touch any of them has now seemingly surpassed them. The current arc decided to introduce 6 new universes and do 0 with them.

What we should've gotten is each universe being introduced and exploared at a time with each having developed characters. Instead of jumping over ALL the destroyers Goku should've been limited to surpassing them one at a time.
The GoDs were revealed to be little compared to the angels long ago; I'd be very uninterested in your vision of DB where Goku and company stay at such low heights for so long. I certainly hope Goku has surpassed all the GoDs; next up should be the angels, and after that we can expand the cosmology again. I've always thought it would be a bad idea to make U7 look like nothing compared to the other universes, and I'm glad they averted that. Higher planes of existence than a universe is where the real potential is at.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by sintzu » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:11 am

Simere wrote:I'd be very uninterested in your vision of DB where Goku and company stay at such low heights for so long.
It's called taking your time to make sure things have a natural flow and satisfying results. Jumping through everything so fast shows a lack of knowledge on worldbuilding and just results in potential plots never seeing the light of day.
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:15 am

sintzu wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Given how strong Jiren was, yes, it was necessary from a narrative perspective.
They didn't have to make Jiren this strong.
But they did. And they have every right to.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Simere » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:23 am

sintzu wrote:
Simere wrote:I'd be very uninterested in your vision of DB where Goku and company stay at such low heights for so long.
It's called taking your time to make sure things have a natural flow and satisfying results. Jumping through everything so fast shows a lack of knowledge on worldbuilding and just results in potential plots never seeing the light of day.
No, it's not called that. It's called one way of going about things, and not the one I want, nor is it the way DB has always done things. And you're missing out on potential plots no matter what you do, so that doesn't really mean anything.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:37 am

sintzu wrote:
Simere wrote:When did classic DB takes its time? Whenever a new enemy or limit was presented it was surpassed the same arc.
It always took its time. It took Goku 3 tournaments to finally win. It took him 8 arcs to reach Ssj. It took Gohan 3 arcs to finally show his true power. It took Vegeta all of Z to become a good guy. It took Piccolo I'd say up until him fighting with Goku on Namek to truly become a good guy. It took Bulma nearly the entire story to find her "prince".

The current arc introduced 10 new destroyers with some being stronger than the 2 we know yet Goku who couldn't even touch any of them has now seemingly surpassed them. The current arc decided to introduce 6 new universes and do 0 with them.

What we should've gotten is each universe being introduced and exploared at a time with each having developed characters. Instead of jumping over ALL the destroyers Goku should've been limited to surpassing them one at a time.
The part I've highlighted is flat out not true. The implication in the anime is that all the destroyers are on the same level of power, and aside from a freaking arm wrestling contest, there is nothing to suggest there are not evenly matched with one other, if anything, evidence supports the contrary, with the battle between the three destroyers perfectly demonstrating this.

Personally, I'm fine with the fact that Goku is going to step over the level of Gods this arc, since they've literally been building towards it all of Super.

The first enemy they introduced was a God of Destruction, being completed outmatched against him, Goku attains a new form and manages to provide Beerus a fun fight, also making Goku the strongest mortal in the universe by a huge margin.

Resurrection of F furthers this idea with episode 18, which has Whis say that Goku and Vegeta are still amateurs in comparison to the other gods, which leads to them discovering Super Saiyan Blue, a form that far surpassed his original god power.

Universe 6, at least in the anime, served as a nice way to demonstrate that their were still mortals in other universes that could rival our protagonists, even with Goku pushing his powers further with Kaio-ken. It functioned as a nice little prelude to the Tournament of Power and showed us a little of the opponents that could have been in store for our heroes.

The Future Trunks arc put our heroes up against a rogue God who figures himself as a sort of pseudo God of Destruction, he also happens to be the dark reflection of Goku, and each battle they have with him escalates not only in scale but also forces our protagonists to improve to keep up.

By the start of the Tournament arc, in both anime and manga, its made pretty clear that Goku with the power of Blue, possesses power that is comparable or not that dissimilar to a God of Destruction. They are very much in the same league of the Gods. Combined that with one of the most physically stressful arc, where our protagonists fight characters with powers that step outside that of a God of Destruction as well as an actual God of Destruction, and you have our protagonists being pushed towards a new heights of power greater than that of God of Destruction.

My main point is, each arc has served as a steady form of progression for them to improve, as they fight larger and larger threats following their initial encounter with Beerus.

I don't see how this is any less sudden then Goku beating Freeza, even though he was no match for even a lowly goon at the beginning of the Z.

The biggest problem I have with this tournament is the use of the universes. Having a multiverse is a good idea to broaden the array of characters you can fight, but barely a handful of them actually turn out to be anything interesting or worthwhile and I definitely felt that more time could be given to each universe that's going to be some importance in order to make us somewhat invested in them. Sadly, only really universe 6 and 11 got anything close to that.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:06 am

JazzMazz wrote:The part I've highlighted is flat out not true. The implication in the anime is that all the destroyers are on the same level of power, and aside from a freaking arm wrestling contest, there is nothing to suggest there are not evenly matched with one other, if anything, evidence supports the contrary, with the battle between the three destroyers perfectly demonstrating this.

Personally, I'm fine with the fact that Goku is going to step over the level of Gods this arc, since they've literally been building towards it all of Super.

The first enemy they introduced was a God of Destruction, being completed outmatched against him, Goku attains a new form and manages to provide Beerus a fun fight, also making Goku the strongest mortal in the universe by a huge margin.

Resurrection of F furthers this idea with episode 18, which has Whis say that Goku and Vegeta are still amateurs in comparison to the other gods, which leads to them discovering Super Saiyan Blue, a form that far surpassed his original god power.

Universe 6, at least in the anime, served as a nice way to demonstrate that their were still mortals in other universes that could rival our protagonists, even with Goku pushing his powers further with Kaio-ken. It functioned as a nice little prelude to the Tournament of Power and showed us a little of the opponents that could have been in store for our heroes.

The Future Trunks arc put our heroes up against a rogue God who figures himself as a sort of pseudo God of Destruction, he also happens to be the dark reflection of Goku, and each battle they have with him escalates not only in scale but also forces our protagonists to improve to keep up.

By the start of the Tournament arc, in both anime and manga, its made pretty clear that Goku with the power of Blue, possesses power that is comparable or not that dissimilar to a God of Destruction. They are very much in the same league of the Gods. Combined that with one of the most physically stressful arc, where our protagonists fight characters with powers that step outside that of a God of Destruction as well as an actual God of Destruction, and you have our protagonists being pushed towards a new heights of power greater than that of God of Destruction.

My main point is, each arc has served as a steady form of progression for them to improve, as they fight larger and larger threats following their initial encounter with Beerus.

I don't see how this is any less sudden then Goku beating Freeza, even though he was no match for even a lowly goon at the beginning of the Z.

The biggest problem I have with this tournament is the use of the universes. Having a multiverse is a good idea to broaden the array of characters you can fight, but barely a handful of them actually turn out to be anything interesting or worthwhile and I definitely felt that more time could be given to each universe that's going to be some importance in order to make us somewhat invested in them. Sadly, only really universe 6 and 11 got anything close to that.
Adding to this, it's taken five real-life years for Goku to reach this point, three for Super's continuity going by the retellings. Beerus has been around since 2013 Goku is just now stepping over him. It's never taken this long for Goku to surpass a foe or mentor and it seems like he still has a ways to go before reaching Whis, and there are people beyond even that level like the Grand Priest.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:37 am

I'm gonna play a bit of the Devil's Advocate and say that a new form may indeed have been necessary.

The story has been building up to Goku getting closer to the Hakaishin, progressing from SSG to SSB to SSB/KKx10 to SSB/KKx20. Beerus was the main posterboy for this, but this narrative applies to the Hakaishin in general as "the gods".

Surpassing the gods. That's what this new material has all been about.

The easiest way to justify a new jump in power is a new form, as much as people would rather it not come to this.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by sintzu » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:41 am

Lord Beerus wrote:But they did. And they have every right to.
I wonder if this would apply if Toriyama wasn't the writer. :shifty:
Simere wrote:It's called one way of going about things, and not the way DB has always done things.

You're missing out on potential plots no matter what you do, so that doesn't really mean anything.
DB has never set up so much only to throw it out at the same time. The only thing I can think of is the demon relm being brought up in the Buu arc without anything being done with it but that's nothing compared to what they've done here.

That doesn't mean they should go out of their way to waste the great ideas they have.
JazzMazz wrote:I'm fine with the fact that Goku is going to step over the level of Gods this arc, since they've literally been building towards it all of Super.

By the start of the Tournament arc, in both anime and manga, its made pretty clear that Goku with the power of Blue, possesses power that is comparable or not that dissimilar to a God of Destruction. They are very much in the same league of the Gods.

I don't see how this is any less sudden then Goku beating Freeza, even though he was no match for even a lowly goon at the beginning of the Z.
The arc starts with both him and Vegeta being 0 compared to Beerus. Going from that to being stronger in the same arc is nothing close to build up.

In the manga we see Vegeta have complete control over Blue like Goku yet Beerus takes him down in one hit, saying he's got years worth of training if he wants to even be on his level.

Freeza wasn't there from the start being able to one shot him for multiple arcs only for Goku to go from that to completely owning him. Even after going Ssj we saw Freeza put up a nearly even match.
BlueBasilisk wrote:Adding to this, it's taken five real-life years for Goku to reach this point, three for Super's continuity going by the retellings. Beerus has been around since 2013 Goku is just now stepping over him.
The problem is that when the tournament started he was still nowhere near him or any of the destroyersm, not even close. In less than an hour he went from that to out of nowhere being stronger.
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:47 am

sintzu wrote:DB has never set up so much only to throw it out at the same time. The only thing I can think of is the demon relm being brought up in the Buu arc without anything being done with it but that's nothing compared to what they've done here.
The only thing the Universal Survival arc set up were that 80 fighters would compete against each other in battle royal. And you got that.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:53 am

sintzu wrote:The problem is that when the tournament started he was still nowhere near him or any of the destroyersm, not even close. In less than an hour he went from that to out of nowhere being stronger.
Goku literally withstood death and used the power of the Genki Dama to break his shell and survive, once broken it was a way of finding how to activate it again. You cannot look at just the time "less than hour" and ignore the events that actually happened. It wasn't "out of nowhere", it is not like Goku screamed rahhhh and suddenly got UI...

I doubt any of the GoD's went through any of the intense and taxing things Goku did in the ToP, he literally fought off death. You CANNOT ignore these events just because it "happened in less than hour". Time is irrelevant it is about what happens with in that period.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by sintzu » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:15 am

Lord Beerus wrote:The only thing the Universal Survival arc set up were that 80 fighters would compete against each other in battle royal. And you got that.
The only thing ? each of those universes had the potential of at least 2 arcs each with well developed characters. That'd be like Naruto wasting the Akatsuki in one arc or One Piece killing the warlords in one arc.
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Nero<>Akira » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:25 am

The most ironic thing is people suggesting these characters can't break their limits because of a time limit lol the time limit doesn't keep these characters from going through stress and conflict they've never been through. I can go on a treadmill at 14 MPH when my normal speed is 12 MPH, get more tired, and go beyond what i normally do right now at 14 than I could last week. Within minutes. I could guarantee it would help me with lower speeds as well. And I would get more tired in a these minutes more than I would if I ran for 30 minutes at 8.5 MPH. Btw, Jiren was stated to be stronger than his own GoD. Not every GoD. It wasn't implied that they're all the same, but there it is implied that there's a certain level of power you need to be at to be considered GoD level. Vegeta beating Toppo doesn't mean he can beat Beerus nor does it mean that Toppo can beat any other GoD. I also don't think Goku is stronger than Beerus now nor is it being implied. Maybe as a fighter because he has now gotten UI, but not in strength. And if there's a rematch, I fully expect Beerus to win.
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:07 pm

sintzu wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:The only thing the Universal Survival arc set up were that 80 fighters would compete against each other in battle royal. And you got that.
The only thing ? each of those universes had the potential of at least 2 arcs each with well developed characters. That'd be like Naruto wasting the Akatsuki in one arc or One Piece killing the warlords in one arc.
The Akatsuki and Warlords in One Piece are an integral part of the story from their respective series for large portions of the narrative. The other universes don't have that same effect in Super until the Tournament Of Power. If the other universe were brought up once in fleeting mention and didn't get mentioned again, nothing would change. What happens in the other universes have no bearing on the main cast. So even if you wanted an arc focused on them, it would be completely superfluous. It would change anything about the overall narrative of Super. Now would exploring the other universe serve a good world building? Yeah. Could they provide some good stories? Yeah. Now, time for the million dollar question... is it mandatory that exploration of the other universe happen so that the plot moves forward? No.
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Hawk9211 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:23 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:The only thing the Universal Survival arc set up were that 80 fighters would compete against each other in battle royal. And you got that.
The only thing ? each of those universes had the potential of at least 2 arcs each with well developed characters. That'd be like Naruto wasting the Akatsuki in one arc or One Piece killing the warlords in one arc.
The Akatsuki and Warlords in One Piece are an integral part of the story from their respective series for large portions of the narrative. The other universes don't have that same effect in Super until the Tournament Of Power. If the other universe were brought up once in fleeting mention and didn't get mentioned again, nothing would change. What happens in the other universes have no bearing on the main cast. So even if you wanted an arc focused on them, it would be completely superfluous. It would change anything about the overall narrative of Super. Now would exploring the other universe serve a good world building? Yeah. Could they provide some good stories? Yeah. Now, time for the million dollar question... is it mandatory that exploration of the other universe happen so that the plot moves forward. No.
That’s exactly what he is arguing about.You have this great idea with unprecedented potential and you just ignore it,now expect some asspulls.Which could be easily be avoided had you focused on some of these universes earlier and would have made this arc even better.

They tried to salvage it by hakaishins mentioning that there is too less time and there are things that even gods don’t know.
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by sintzu » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:53 pm

Hawk9211 wrote:That’s exactly what he is arguing about.You have this great idea with unprecedented potential and you just ignore it.
Thank you, finally someone who gets what I'm trying to say.

These universes were a goldmine of story telling and they threw them away. If they didn't have better ideas for them the least they could've done was leave them alone until they or someone else figured out how to use them. What made the dragon world seem endless in 2013 has now made it smaller than ever.

I don't know what's worse, them wasting all that potential or people defending it.
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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by ernesth100 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:57 pm

Yes, it's the clear next step in evolution for his character. The pinnacle, for now, of his his power and believe it or not, he can still go further.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:08 pm

sintzu wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:That’s exactly what he is arguing about.You have this great idea with unprecedented potential and you just ignore it.
Thank you, finally someone who gets what I'm trying to say.

These universes were a goldmine of story telling and they threw them away. If they didn't have better ideas for them the least they could've done was leave them alone until they or someone else figured out how to use them. What made the dragon world seem endless in 2013 has now made it smaller than ever.
I could possibly understand the complaints about not making the most of Universe 6 and perhaps Universe 11, but what can you actually do with the other universes that we haven't seen before? People talk about how the universes were wasted, but what was the context they have provided which would could potentially tell great stories? Or at least stories we haven't seen before in Dragon Ball? What would you exactly do with Universe 2, 3, 4, 9 and 10 in regards to them getting their own unique isolated narrative? I'm not against one day exploring the other universes, but if you can't come up with any kind of engaging stories regarding the several other universes, then honestly don't bother. Because then it was just be even more of a waste.

Besides...I'm still waiting for a day that we get a side story about how the Red Ribbon Army originated, how Freeza's planet conquering business started, what race Freeza is from and what kind of lives #17 and #18 had before Gero turned into cyborgs, and Dabra life before he became Babidi's minion.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by Lionel » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:14 pm

CJStriker_CBR wrote:
Lionel wrote:It's the easiest means through which Goku is able to fight Jiren while making it into a spectacle. I think there's a whole host of ways that Universe 7 could have eliminated him that wouldn't have required a sparkling new transformation, but Dragon Ball isn't in the market of subverting its mechanics system with something that runs in contradiction to the long established rule of power ultimately determining everything. Is it because they lack the creativity to think of something or because they don't want to be bothered trying something else? Who can say. Regardless, Goku has a new transformation and it'll fulfill its purpose of giving him a tangible foothold to stand his ground against Jiren with.
Interesting points and when I think over this arc from its beginning to now I feel that the writing was going for something allot more different then what the end result is. The last Dozen or so episodes felt to generic play-by-the-numbers storytelling by what has always seemed to be Dragon Ball's most basic concept, the great power level wins/Just Punch Really, Really Harder. This is in contrast to the beginning of that arc that felt allot more deeper and by the rules of the ToP, it being a team battel and the Uniqueness of the other Universes that U7 was going to have to try new things then just overpowering their opponents and that U7 would have to personally grow both with each other and for themselves from this in learning leasson that they are not the only Major power in the multiverse.

So it feels like the writers where going for one thing at the start that was going to be more daring and more in the gray areas of how to win and become a better fighter, but then for whatever reasons what I saw got stopped by whoever, management or executives or editorial mandate or the toy lines or whatever and writers where told to make the story more generic and what it always ends up being.

This leads me to was a New Transformation necessary ~~~~~ Maybe but I think the execution could have been done better, not just something that seemed at random to come out of the Spirt Bomb. But more over, I think the Mastering of UI was indeed Not Necessary for this arc.

Every new level Goku has gotten has taken time to master, accept for SSJ-3 which can't be mastered it seemed. Mastering UI should have been part of the next arc, so IMO that is then main thing I think was really not nessary in putting in a Master of this New Transformation Only Achieved in the last 30 mins in story time and now is already mastered just seems overly rushed and should have been its own arc.
As you stated, whatever grey area that the studio may have been dabbling in during the preliminary build-up to the tournament was lost somewhere after it began. Maybe they hoped to strike some type of compromise between the less immutable technical elements of today's manga with the core script that Toriyama had put forth. We obviously know that after awhile they seemed to have given up on that endeavour. I will give credit to them maintaining a relatively consistent theme of collaborative teamwork posing as an invaluable asset in fights throughout the whole event. It can't be denied that in at least that area, they've succeeded. But in many other ways it fell short of what I believe they might have been aiming for. I'm probably in the small minority of fans who wish Jiren could have been eliminated through some other, less power oriented means of approach.

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Re: Was a new transformation really necessary for Goku?

Post by sintzu » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:20 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:What can you actually do with the other universes that we haven't seen before ?

What was the context they have provided which could potentially tell great stories ?

What would you exactly do with Universe 2, 3, 4, 9 and 10 in regards to them getting their own unique isolated narrative?

If you can't come up with any kind of engaging stories regarding the several other universes, then honestly don't bother.

Besides...I'm still waiting for a day that we get a side story about how the Red Ribbon Army originated, how Freeza's planet conquering business started, what race Freeza is from and what kind of lives #17 and #18 had before Gero turned into cyborgs, and Dabra life before he became Babidi's minion.
I'm not writing for the franchise so I don't know. They clearly also don't know but unlike them I'd just save them for when I do have an idea.

They're completely different universes ? with completely different characters ? with completely different planets ? with completely different problems ? there are so many things they could do and you know it.

Nothing now because they runied them. If I was writing the Black arc the least I'd do is introduce strong likable characters from U10 to help against Zamasu because he's form their universe. How on earth did they not think of that ?

Exactly, don't bother with them but instead of doing that they had to force them into this tournament and mess up what someone else could potentially do with them.

Pigs will fly before that happens. :lol: (Oolong can but he's half man so does he count ?)
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